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Munster Team Talk Thread - Snymans are(n't) Forever

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    #1202
    Caranica
    Registered Users Posts: 10,039 ✭✭✭✭Caranica


    Buer wrote: »
    Is there anything to be said for Bernard Jackman as replacement for Flannery? Replace one test hooker who is a forwards coach with another albeit more experienced one.

    He's already signed with Bective Rangers as first team coach for next season. Announced middle of last week!


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    #1203
    Dubinusa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,211 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    It's tough to put a finger on the attacking issues that Munster have? The quality of players is very good. Earl's and Conway are top level performers imo. I would say that Haley is fairly decent, but he's not at the top end level. I think Farrell is great and I would love to see him play at 12 with Scannell or Arnold outside him. Murray has been poor for quite a while. He is not at his customary level.
    In the pack, the grunt is there but the skill levels aren't. But, the playbook is very predictable. I would at least try Beirne at 6. POM disappears and it's becoming a more common scenario.
    The academy is turning out some good players. I think Coombes will be a very good player. Liam O Connor has potential and Calvin Nash will see more time next year. I think Nash should get a run at fb. They also have Hodnett, who looks to be a fantastic prospect.
    Only time will tell. JVG will be on the hotseat if it goes tits up next year.


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    #1204
    Burkie1203
    Registered Users Posts: 11,190 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Dubinusa wrote: »
    Only time will tell. JVG will be on the hotseat if it goes tits up next year.

    A new attack coach will take time to make his mark. Munster could end up in a Euro group with Saracens and Racing for example.

    If Munster are going to bring someone in, He has to be given time. There is also a skillet deficit in the forwards that won't be fixed in a few months.

    Larkham seems to be wishful thinking as he may well be waiting to take over Australia after the RWC although he is available now

    If it's Howley, He won't be around until the end of October


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    #1205
    Erik Shun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 534 ✭✭✭Erik Shun


    Burkie1203 wrote: »
    A new attack coach will take time to make his mark. Munster could end up in a Euro group with Saracens and Racing for example.

    If Munster are going to bring someone in, He has to be given time. There is also a skillet deficit in the forwards that won't be fixed in a few months.

    Larkham seems to be wishful thinking as he may well be waiting to take over Australia after the RWC although he is available now

    If it's Howley, He won't be around until the end of October

    Lots of nothing in your post again, thought you'd given up spouting the same old rubbish after yesterday...


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    #1206
    Burkie1203
    Registered Users Posts: 11,190 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Erik Shun wrote: »
    Lots of nothing in your post again, thought you'd given up spouting the same old rubbish after yesterday...

    Great comeback. Really insightful and well thought out points you made there.


    It took Leinster an entire pre season and half of that season to get playing the way Joe Schmidt wanted them playing in 2010-11. Leinster lost 3 out of 4 games back then at the start having had pre season together as a group.

    So If Howley for example arrives into Munster in the last week of October after Wales get to the latter stages of the RWC will that mean Munsters attack is transformed instantly or will it take time to implement? IMO it will take time.

    The bulk of work is done in pre season. This time around it's unlikely that there will be a new attack coach in place for pre season, and if there is, He might well be working without 4 or 5 of the first choice backline.


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    #1207
    Caranica
    Registered Users Posts: 10,039 ✭✭✭✭Caranica


    Pro14 starts on 27 September with 5 rounds between then and the RWC final. Champions Cup starts 15 November.

    We can't afford to wait that long for new coaches. Also the fixture list will be very important. To play Glasgow, Blues or Treviso in the RWC block would be helpful.


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    #1208
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,849 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Of course it’s relevant when someone so influential leaves, even before you factor in how much his own job is influenced by where the team is going

    OK, so tell me how someone who has no role with the playing side is so influential. He's apparently decided to return home to NZ after 11 years in Ireland, so not related to changes in the coaching staff. As I said players who aren't even at Munster a year are signing contract extensions. That is way more relevant than anything the marketing manager (no matter who he is) does.


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    #1209
    Erik Shun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 534 ✭✭✭Erik Shun


    Burkie1203 wrote: »
    Great comeback. Really insightful and well thought out points you made there.


    It took Leinster an entire pre season and half of that season to get playing the way Joe Schmidt wanted them playing in 2010-11. Leinster lost 3 out of 4 games back then at the start having had pre season together as a group.

    So If Howley for example arrives into Munster in the last week of October after Wales get to the latter stages of the RWC will that mean Munsters attack is transformed instantly or will it take time to implement? IMO it will take time.

    The bulk of work is done in pre season. This time around it's unlikely that there will be a new attack coach in place for pre season, and if there is, He might well be working without 4 or 5 of the first choice backline.

    Answered all yesterday..you're just going around in circles and being obtuse


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    #1210
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    OK, so tell me how someone who has no role with the playing side is so influential. He's apparently decided to return home to NZ after 11 years in Ireland, so not related to changes in the coaching staff. As I said players who aren't even at Munster a year are signing contract extensions. That is way more relevant than anything the marketing manager (no matter who he is) does.

    He's not part of the playing group so I can't see how it's going to have any impact myself.


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    #1211
    Sabre0001
    Registered Users Posts: 7,499 ✭✭✭Sabre0001


    So where to from here. Out in two semi finals again, but to the two best teams in Europe. We looked a level below them, but there have been positives to take from the season, and of course there are some things to work upon.

    JVG took over mid-season and only got first pre-season this year. He's also starting to shape the squad as he wants it with contracts expiring and people being moved on. Our defence has been strong and both Leinster and Saracens created and took their tries very well in recent weeks. He will need to be given the two years and judged on that though.

    There's been so much upheaval in recent years so difficult to get into a solid stride (and unfortunately we're going into another season with coaching staff to find plus World Cup taking some of our players away from that bedding in time). Hopefully we can get someone that gets the backline singing. On paper it's quite strong and getting the basics right or one or two set plays could go a long way. Plus, we have a couple of players with some X Factor who can create, but we often struggle to get them the ball - and certainly in space - at the moment.

    Our underage players are coming along nicely, but the issue that Munster has struggled with for a while is getting them gametime. We saw it with Nagle, JJ, Stephen Fitzgerald, and now possibly Bill Johnston (and Casey was being looked at too). David Johnston recently spoke about his struggles to get gametime and progress: https://www.the42.ie/dave-johnston-munster-ealing-rugby-interview-4639088-May2019/ . Leaving those aside we have players who maybe haven't kicked on and possibly in similar circumstances like Arnold (leapfrogged by Goggin), Sweetnam, Wootton, and some up and comers like Wycherly and Coombes, for example. It's tough to find space for everyone in a squad of 23, and you need consistency in selections at times, but perhaps we could utilise players better. Then again, the World Cup will give the broader squad some opportunities.

    There have been some frustrations over the season and definitely games there for the winning (Castres, Exeter). Leinster were clinical, we were not. And that kinda sums up some of our season. We also flip-flopped with discipline - no penalties or free kicks given away in one game to 13 against Leinster! And not even as a result of pressure at times, just silly stuff.

    I'm curious to see what next season brings. I just hope it's not more heartbreak without really firing a shot in the second half of semi finals.

    🤪



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    #1212
    budhabob
    Registered Users Posts: 4,823 ✭✭✭budhabob


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    OK, so tell me how someone who has no role with the playing side is so influential. He's apparently decided to return home to NZ after 11 years in Ireland, so not related to changes in the coaching staff. As I said players who aren't even at Munster a year are signing contract extensions. That is way more relevant than anything the marketing manager (no matter who he is) does.

    Organisational Leadership, plain and simple. While he is removed from any decisions on the field, he makes up part of the organisational leadership, as did Jones and Fla. Leadership directs culture. To think that it doesnt reflect issues, or will impact is naive in my view.


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    #1213
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,849 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    budhabob wrote: »
    Organisational Leadership, plain and simple. While he is removed from any decisions on the field, he makes up part of the organisational leadership, as did Jones and Fla. Leadership directs culture. To think that it doesnt reflect issues, or will impact is naive in my view.

    He's going home after 11 years in Ireland. I've heard now that he made the decision and told the MB around Christmas. It has absolutely nothing to do with Jones and Flannery leaving and doesn't reflect any issues.

    And if we get better coaches than Jones and Flannery (and it won't be difficult when it comes to Jones), then there will be no issues with leadership going into next season.


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    #1214
    Burkie1203
    Registered Users Posts: 11,190 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Erik Shun wrote: »
    Answered all yesterday..you're just going around in circles and being obtuse

    You just waffled about how players will learn calls instantly. Thats not the discussion. Learning moves from a new coach and implementing them in a match has been proven in the past to take a lot of time

    Leinster 2010 had a backline with some of Europe's best players and they struggled at times after a full pre season with the new coach.

    If Howley is the new coach he arrives a week after the Welsh exit the RWC. That could be two weeks before Europe.


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    #1215
    Erik Shun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 534 ✭✭✭Erik Shun


    Burkie1203 wrote: »
    You just waffled about how players will learn calls instantly. Thats not the discussion. Learning moves from a new coach and implementing them in a match has been proven in the past to take a lot of time

    Leinster 2010 had a backline with some of Europe's best players and they struggled at times after a full pre season with the new coach.

    If Howley is the new coach he arrives a week after the Welsh exit the RWC. That could be two weeks before Europe.

    You're still waffling on about whats, ifs..and maybes...
    Latest reports suggest Howley is not the front runner at this point and that an ex player is also coming into the setup.... but I'm not going to dwell on any of this, when we can make a deductive argument I'll revisit it, but no point at the moment.


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    #1216
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,568 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    Sabre0001 wrote: »
    So where to from here. Out in two semi finals again, but to the two best teams in Europe. We looked a level below them, but there have been positives to take from the season, and of course there are some things to work upon.

    JVG took over mid-season and only got first pre-season this year. He's also starting to shape the squad as he wants it with contracts expiring and people being moved on. Our defence has been strong and both Leinster and Saracens created and took their tries very well in recent weeks. He will need to be given the two years and judged on that though.

    There's been so much upheaval in recent years so difficult to get into a solid stride (and unfortunately we're going into another season with coaching staff to find plus World Cup taking some of our players away from that bedding in time). Hopefully we can get someone that gets the backline singing. On paper it's quite strong and getting the basics right or one or two set plays could go a long way. Plus, we have a couple of players with some X Factor who can create, but we often struggle to get them the ball - and certainly in space - at the moment.

    Our underage players are coming along nicely, but the issue that Munster has struggled with for a while is getting them gametime. We saw it with Nagle, JJ, Stephen Fitzgerald, and now possibly Bill Johnston (and Casey was being looked at too). David Johnston recently spoke about his struggles to get gametime and progress: https://www.the42.ie/dave-johnston-munster-ealing-rugby-interview-4639088-May2019/ . Leaving those aside we have players who maybe haven't kicked on and possibly in similar circumstances like Arnold (leapfrogged by Goggin), Sweetnam, Wootton, and some up and comers like Wycherly and Coombes, for example. It's tough to find space for everyone in a squad of 23, and you need consistency in selections at times, but perhaps we could utilise players better. Then again, the World Cup will give the broader squad some opportunities.

    There have been some frustrations over the season and definitely games there for the winning (Castres, Exeter). Leinster were clinical, we were not. And that kinda sums up some of our season. We also flip-flopped with discipline - no penalties or free kicks given away in one game to 13 against Leinster! And not even as a result of pressure at times, just silly stuff.

    I'm curious to see what next season brings. I just hope it's not more heartbreak without really firing a shot in the second half of semi finals.

    The Johnston article is great and seems to highlight problems beyond game time for young players. His thoughts on being afraid to make a mistake, even in training were pretty worrying. Some of the players brought in have been bizarre too; Haley has been a huge disappointment and his selection has upset the back 3, we are much better with Conway at 15 and Sweetnam is more than competent enough to fill in on the wing, why are we rejigging our back 3 to accommodate him? Saracens in particular targeted him with huge success.

    Like you I also see positives in the academy, both Wycherly's, both Coombes, Shane Daly and Craig Casey all look good


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    #1217
    fonecrusher1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭fonecrusher1


    Erik Shun wrote: »
    Latest reports suggest Howley is not the front runner at this point and that an ex player is also coming into the setup..

    I hope you're right about Howley being a non runner. If a ex Munster player is in the running I hope this isn't a cheap quick fix. There's no quick fixes this time. We need someone with experience, a proven track record and someone who is going to hit the ground running and is going to commit longterm.

    On paper Stephen larkham would be ideal as an attack coach but Munster are going to have to throw money at him. Its also a huge move for someone based in Australia. I know many's an Australian or NZ coach has moved lock stock and barrel over here but we're talking about an attack coach not head coach role.


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    #1218
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,248 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    snotboogie wrote: »
    The Johnston article is great and seems to highlight problems beyond game time for young players. His thoughts on being afraid to make a mistake, even in training were pretty worrying. Some of the players brought in have been bizarre too; Haley has been a huge disappointment and his selection has upset the back 3, we are much better with Conway at 15 and Sweetnam is more than competent enough to fill in on the wing, why are we rejigging our back 3 to accommodate him? Saracens in particular targeted him with huge success.

    Like you I also see positives in the academy, both Wycherly's, both Coombes, Shane Daly and Craig Casey all look good

    I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I think the Haley signing made sense largely because 1) he was Irish qualified and 2) Zebo was departing. We would've been short on numbers without signing him.


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    #1219
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,849 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    fonecrusher1 wrote: »
    I hope you're right about Howley being a non runner. If a ex Munster player is in the running I hope this isn't a cheap quick fix. There's no quick fixes this time. We need someone with experience, a proven track record and someone who is going to hit the ground running and is going to commit longterm.

    On paper Stephen larkham would be ideal as an attack coach but Munster are going to have to throw money at him. Its also a huge move for someone based in Australia. I know many's an Australian or NZ coach has moved lock stock and barrel over here but we're talking about an attack coach not head coach role.


    The rumour around Limerick over the weekend was Jim Williams returning as forwards coach. No idea if it has any real legs though.


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    #1220
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    The rumour around Limerick over the weekend was Jim Williams returning as forwards coach. No idea if it has any real legs though.

    What's he been doing the last while? Wikipedia says he hasn't coached since 2011, don't know if that's accurate but it's a fair while ago at this stage.


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    #1221
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,001 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    fonecrusher1 wrote: »
    I hope you're right about Howley being a non runner. If a ex Munster player is in the running I hope this isn't a cheap quick fix. There's no quick fixes this time. We need someone with experience, a proven track record and someone who is going to hit the ground running and is going to commit longterm.

    On paper Stephen larkham would be ideal as an attack coach but Munster are going to have to throw money at him. Its also a huge move for someone based in Australia. I know many's an Australian or NZ coach has moved lock stock and barrel over here but we're talking about an attack coach not head coach role.

    Thought Larkham was considered to have gone very poorly in his last gig as attack coach, with better players.


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    #1222
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    I wonder if there's a realistic chance of going back to the original plan and moving JvG up to director and bringing Larkham in at head coach to assemble his own team.


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    #1223
    VANG1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 222 ✭✭VANG1


    Could be Mike Prendergast, who is supposedly leaving Stade Francais


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    #1224
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    From listening to/reading some interviews with ROG and Scott Robinson where they explain their coaching philosophy, they place a huge emphasis on the players playing together from a young age and recruit for their academy from all over NZ rather than later in their careers so that by the stage they get to play Super Rugby they play instinctively because they know all their team mates are likely to do in a given situation. ROG seems very taken with this strategy. One of the things that ROG also said was that he has charge of the 17 backs in the squad, and he worries more about the ones who don't play than the ones who get to play.

    In Munster, most of the backs haven't played with each other for more than a few games and Joey is new into the squad. In Leinster, the bulk of the academy seems to come from one or two schools so there are plenty of lads who have been playing together or against each other since they were 12 or 13. When you look at the Munster team, ROG and Stringer were playing together from the age of 12 or 13, and the Munster forwards were mainly made up of the Shannon team that won several AILs.

    The problem Munster has now, is that there are not enough games for its A team so that they can develop like that. I don't think there will be any miracles performed by a new attack coach.

    Munster are also a bit short of coaching staff which might explain why David Johnson wasn't getting enough attention.


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    #1225
    Burkie1203
    Registered Users Posts: 11,190 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Thought Larkham was considered to have gone very poorly in his last gig as attack coach, with better players.

    Larkhams moves etc apparently are very intricate. It was mentioned last week somewhere that he fell out with Cheika because Cheika wanted to simplify things.

    Larkham appears to be holding out for the Aussie job post RWC as Cheika may be out of there


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    #1226
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    What's he been doing the last while? Wikipedia says he hasn't coached since 2011, don't know if that's accurate but it's a fair while ago at this stage.


    After Wallabies, he was working with New South Wales Rugby and then in 2014 he became Head Coach of the Greater Sydney Rams which has just been disbanded (so maybe that is why his name has come up).


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    #1227
    fonecrusher1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭fonecrusher1


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Thought Larkham was considered to have gone very poorly in his last gig as attack coach, with better players.

    Australia's record over the last few years isn't exactly glowing but from what I know Cheika and Larkham have been at odds with eachother for quite some time with their approach to attacking strategy and it shows in their wins / losses stats for last year. I've heard rumours Larkham might be in line as next Australia head coach so i'm becoming less and less convinced he'll ever be part of Munster.

    Hope i'm wrong, we'd be lucky to get him.


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    #1228
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,849 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Bill Johnstons move to Ulster has been confirmed. https://munsterrugby.ie/2019/05/20/bill-johnston-departs-for-ulster/?_ga=2.213918738.488291443.1558354124-110215237.1541168676


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    #1229
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    I talked to a few Wallabies fans on another forum. According to them not a hope in hell Larkham is going to Munster

    Cheika is on the way out, only for the good WC last time he would be gone long ago. If they win the WC he will stay, which I dont think anyone is expecting that, especially now without Folau.

    They created a job to keep Larkham in ARU so he wouldn't leave and go to a European club, he will be the coach of Wallabies in 2020 and that is the job he wants


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    #1230
    fonecrusher1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭fonecrusher1


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    The rumour around Limerick over the weekend was Jim Williams returning as forwards coach. No idea if it has any real legs though.

    I really hope that's just a rumour to be honest. No disrespect to the man.


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    #1231
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Good move for Bill Johnston. Carbery is set in stone and Munster had moved on already with Hanrahan and Bleyendaal re-signed for two years.

    Ben Healy (year 2) and Alan Tynan (year 3) will be the academy prospects to vie for the 4th flyhalf spot.


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