MPs quitting Labour & Conservative parties discussion thread

prawnsambo · 18-02-2019 5:52pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

You only look for a referendum when you think you'll win. There is no majority on the HoC for a second referendum.

It's far too close to call at the moment even if they could get one. My gut says remain lose again though.

Second referendum and they lose, what then? The same problems exist. Do labour just wash their hands of the country?

I'm not so sure about that. THere are enough Tory remainers who might jump at the chance to get what they want. If the entire Labour Party (minus the UKIP wing) were to support it, it could have been a very close call. But that ship has indeed sailed. The last call for that was five months ago, perhaps three if extra time were available through an extension. Basically when TM's deal failed to get through, that was the last chance to do it.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 18-02-2019 5:52pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Ironically enough, that's the sort of rhetoric UKIP supporters come out with.

Ironically enough that’s well poisoning.

Tom Mann Centuria · 18-02-2019 5:53pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

A principled stand against a party whose values they no longer recognise as compatible with their own?

This happy band must be delighted you're associating them with the word principled.

Mike Gapes who visits Saudi Arabia regularly and is favour of still supplying them arms. Angela "brown tinge" Smith who is so vehemently against water going back to into public ownership and just so happens to be paid by water company lobbyists, Gavin anti gay marriage shuker? Chuka labelling people as trash Umunna.

Party registered as a company in Panama so their backers don't have to to declare themselves, you know, like an actual political party would.

Pricinipled?

Professor Moriarty · 18-02-2019 5:53pm

Havockk wrote: »

So how is that Corbyn's fault?

Well lads, I suppose if things go massively wrong for these centerists they can always turn round in the aftermath and say things like...

"but I had the courage to split when I did."

or

" It was all worth it to oust Corbyn and his mildly lefty ideas."

Sound politicking right there. Good to see a new strategy, lifted from the toys out of pram principle.

Well, let's look at how many people approve of how he is handling Brexit. That would be 16%. May's Brexit approval rating is 25%. So people think that Theresa May, who is a disaster, is doing a better job on Brexit than Corbyn. That's how it's Corbyn's fault.

Havockk · 18-02-2019 5:54pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

I'm not so sure about that. THere are enough Tory remainers who might jump at the chance to get what they want.

Honestly, it could well do the opposite and embolden the Tories now they see the opposition split like this. Not going to lie, if there are many more, it could lead to the worst of all scenarios.

ancapailldorcha · 18-02-2019 5:54pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Ironically enough that’s well poisoning.

I don't see how. The parallels are there.

If people have to dismiss every outlet in the land because they're criticising Jeremy Corbyn, it makes for a very poor argument to moderate voters why he should be Prime Minister.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 18-02-2019 5:54pm

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

Did anyone watch the independents press conference live? Something that is doing my head in is people online falling for Luciana Berger's "slip up". She introduces hereself "And I am the labour MP"...........pause, realises mistake. It was completely scripted for god sake.

Sorry had to get that off my chest. Anyway in other news I am geuinely baffled they do not have to go to by elections.

That’s ok in my view. I mean I think it would be the moral thing to do, but it’s not legally necessary.

Havockk · 18-02-2019 5:56pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Well, let's look at how many people approve of how he is handling Brexit. That would be 16%. May's Brexit approval rating is 25%. So people think that Theresa May, who is a disaster, is doing a better job on Brexit than Corbyn. That's how it's Corbyn's fault.

People also thought it was smart enough to vote leave in the first instance, so....???

BobbyBobberson · 18-02-2019 5:56pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

So leaving the party should immediately mean you face losing your job? Think that one through a bit. Basically, even in safe seats, no sitting MP could even dare to go against the leaderships wishes as they just just kick them out of the party.

Yeah hadnt thought about that. I suppose I am just thinking it from my own point of view. If I voted Labour and my MP no longer was Labour then I would not be happy. As someone pointed out, some constituencies vote for whoever as long as they have the correct party badge. Remain voting Vauxhall returning Kate Hoey is an example.

super_furry · 18-02-2019 5:56pm

Corbyn is beyond useless. Imagine being up against the worst Tory party leader in living memory, in the midst of a massive political crisis created and worsened by the the Tories and then not being able to take advantage of that and put clear daylight between the two parties.

Corbyn wants a hard brexit because he can then nationalise everything and ignore EU state aid rules and if he even did get into power, he'd drag Britain back to the 70s.

Professor Moriarty · 18-02-2019 5:56pm

Havockk wrote: »

People also thought it was smart enough to vote leave in the first instance, so....???

I'm not sure what your point is?

Subcomandante Marcos · 18-02-2019 5:57pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Corbyn's Labour and anti-Semitism is a bit like UKIP and racism. It keeps coming up too often to simply believe that it's a hit job by the media.

But we have literal proof of employees of the Israeli government, labour members with connections to the employees, and labour MP's who are close to Israeli diplomats speaking openly about the need to "get rid" of Corbyn because he's not a "friend of Israel" on video and in voice recording in a 4 part almost 2 hour long docu-series produced by Al Jazeera including but not limited to plans to paint him and his supporters, even his Jewish supporters, as antisemites.

But that's just a co-incidence I'm sure.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 18-02-2019 5:57pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't see how. The parallels are there.

If people have to dismiss every outlet in the land because they're criticising Jeremy Corbyn, it makes for a very poor argument to moderate voters why he should be Prime Minister.

Moderate voters are at the moment picking labour at the same rate as the Tories. And ten times the liberals. (Which tells me this party is doomed).

Saying the right wing press is against this “radical” is surely uncontroversial. The guardian has been blairite for years.

Leroy42 · 18-02-2019 5:57pm

Havockk wrote: »

They wouldn;t be barred, but I think it would only be fair to go back to teh electorate and ask.

But, in such is the political set up in the UK, even a person as well known as Chukka would find it incredibly difficult to win a seat in a safe Labour area. So effectively he is signing his resignation papers by even trying to disagree with the leadership.

They will be judged by the electorate at the next GE, and they will hope they will have done enough in that time to persuade people they can should continue to vote for them.

I really don't think you have thought this one through properly. It is a licence for parties to totally control their MP's.

ancapailldorcha · 18-02-2019 5:58pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Moderate voters are at the moment picking labour at the same rate as the Tories. And ten times the liberals. (Which tells me this party is doomed).

Saying the right wing press is against this “radical” is surely uncontroversial. The guardian has been blairite for years.

Right but it's the same moderates who voted for Blair back in 1997. Corbyn needs the votes. No amount of ideological purity can mitigate that.

Yer Da sells Avon · 18-02-2019 5:58pm

Folkstonian wrote: »

At best, the man is ignorant of the issue or entirely incapable of dealing with it. At worst, he has no interest in driving it out of the labour movement.

You can't drive out what doesn't exist. It's a manufactured crisis, used by his opponents to smear him because his actual policies have proven inconveniently popular with the public.

Folkstonian wrote: »

Also, to smear somebody generally means to damage their reputation through the spreading of false accusations. I won’t touch the IRA issue here, but on Russia - his response to the Skripal poisoning was all too real.

I'm sure you agree that the spy story and the pro-IRA stuff were utter nonsense.

Havockk · 18-02-2019 5:59pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I'm not sure what your point is?

It doesn't matter what the polling says about what people 'think' about Brexit strategy. We have to work with what we know. And what we know is that Corbyn believes a CU is the answer and these splitters believe it's a peoples vote. No later than last week did the EU get on stage and tell May that they liked Corbyns plan.

Havockk · 18-02-2019 6:00pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

But, in such is the political set up in the UK, even a person as well known as Chukka would find it incredibly difficult to win a seat in a safe Labour area. So effectively he is signing his resignation papers by even trying to disagree with the leadership.

They will be judged by the electorate at the next GE, and they will hope they will have done enough in that time to persuade people they can should continue to vote for them.

I really don't think you have thought this one through properly. It is a licence for parties to totally control their MP's.

Surely that's part and parcel of the risk he takes by drastically changing his affiliations?

Franz Von Peppercorn · 18-02-2019 6:01pm

super_furry wrote: »

Corbyn is beyond useless. Imagine being up against the worst Tory party leader in living memory, in the midst of a massive political crisis created and worsened by the the Tories and then not being able to take advantage of that and put clear daylight between the two parties.

Corbyn wants a hard brexit because he can then nationalise everything and ignore EU state aid rules and if he even did get into, he's drag Britain back to the 70s.

People who think Corbyn should be remain don’t understand the electoral system in the U.K., particularly England.

Professor Moriarty · 18-02-2019 6:04pm

Havockk wrote: »

It doesn't matter what the polling says about what people 'think' about Brexit strategy. We have to work with what we know. And what we know is that Corbyn believes a CU is the answer and these splitters believe it's a peoples vote. No later than last week did the EU get on stage and tell May that they liked Corbyns plan.

What we know is that Corbyn's leadership is terrible. He is a terrible leader and he is destroying Labour as a result. He is simply way out of his depth.

Subcomandante Marcos · 18-02-2019 6:04pm

Chuka Umunna claiming he opposes Corbyn's handling of the approach to Brexit since the referendum is bizarre seeing as he voted in favour of the brexit bill and campaigned during the GE last year on a platform of not holding a second referendum on the basis of respecting the democratic wishes of the people of Britain.

Havockk · 18-02-2019 6:05pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

What we know is that Corbyn's leadership is terrible. He is a terrible leader and he is destroying Labour as a result. He is simply way out of his depth.

Fine mate. Maybe this new party will attract everyone, maybe they will get their 'peoples vote'. Maybe it will be all right in the end.

If not, enjoy your Tory hard sandwich.

Folkstonian · 18-02-2019 6:07pm

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

You can't drive out what doesn't exist. It's a manufactured crisis, used by his opponents to smear him because his actual policies have proven inconveniently popular with the public.

I'm sure you agree that the spy story and the pro-IRA stuff were utter nonsense.

Sorry, I don’t quite agree - btw it was a Czechoslovakian intelligence officer he met not a Russian one - but I won’t go into it because it should be beneath any reasonable poster to debate a person who apparently believes that the antisemitism crisis in the labour party is ‘manufactured’

Professor Moriarty · 18-02-2019 6:08pm

Havockk wrote: »

Fine mate. Maybe this new party will attract everyone, maybe they will get their 'peoples vote'. Maybe it will be all right in the end.

If not, enjoy your Tory hard sandwich.

Ah now. I haven't mentioned this new party. I'm talking about Corbyn and the fact that his approval rating with the voting public is dire. That's just a fact. When you make Theresa May look good then you know you are damaging your own party.

Amirani · 18-02-2019 6:08pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Corbyn's Labour and anti-Semitism is a bit like UKIP and racism. It keeps coming up too often to simply believe that it's a hit job by the media.

My primary issue with Labour is over Brexit, funnily enough but the anti-Semitism problem is still significiant in the eyes of many as Labour and the left are supposed to be the champions of the downtrodden. I don't know enough about Israel-Palestine to go extrapolating conclusions on that front but Corbyn has had years by now to fix this and as far as I can tell, he hasn't.

There may well be something to the anti-Semitism issue. What I will say though is that just because there's accusations, even if they're not baseless, doesn't really give them any validity.

For example; Ireland is routinely accused of anti-Semitism for issues relating to Israel/Palestine. See here for one example: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/21680

While I don't agree with bluntly banning goods produced in occupied territories, being in favour of it doesn't make Ireland or "the Irish" anti-Semitic. I've found it very common that any criticism of Israel gets labelled anti-Semitic by certain groups.

Havockk · 18-02-2019 6:11pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Ah now. I haven't mentioned this new party. I'm talking about Corbyn and the fact that his approval rating with the voting public is dire. That's just a fact. When you make Theresa May look good then you know you are damaging your own party.

I would still stand over the argument that Corbyn would win a GE tomorrow. (**before the split that's to say)

I cannot back what these 7 have done. The risk they have taken is unimaginable.

Professor Moriarty · 18-02-2019 6:14pm

Havockk wrote: »

I would still stand over the argument that Corbyn would win a GE tomorrow.

I cannot back what these 7 have done. The risk they have taken is unimaginable.

Those seven politicians did what they thought was right. At least they stand for something unlike many backbench MPs who run with the hare and hunt with the hounds.

Hurrache · 18-02-2019 6:14pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Or it could be this from a few days ago. Although there's no audio on that link. Not sure if there is any.

That's the one. Someone posted the audio on Twitter but it's not the easiest to find again.

Havockk · 18-02-2019 6:19pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Those seven politicians did what they thought was right. At least they stand for something unlike many backbench MPs who run with the hare and hunt with the hounds.

What if it all goes horribly wrong? I mean, I'm in teh North, I didn't want this shyte of brexit. I have skin in the game. It's fair to say I'm also of the left and I do also think Corbyn as one of the very few actual decent human beings who happens to be a politician. So I have to ask myself. If the worst comes to the worst who would it be better was in charge when it all inevitably goes wrong? And the truthful answer is Corbyn for I know that not even the NHS is safe in tory hands come March 29th.

Subcomandante Marcos · 18-02-2019 6:23pm

rethoric of people who dislike Corbyn because he's a socialist:

"his handling of brexit is abysmal".

Opinion of Irish minister working daily on the EU brexit team:

"Corbyn's plan would be welcomed by Europe"

Also noted that there's broad consensus that Corbyn's proposal would probably pass a vote in the HoC, but the CP won't allow it to go to vote because it would splinter their party even further, putting the party's interests ahead of the country's needs as usual.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/europe-would-welcome-corbyn-s-brexit-plan-says-coveney-1.3797790?fbclid=IwAR2sV97lj7hm0pKM1BhkQCsjCPmrMJkTPIbfUhEGC64DBITH6lognWQHPQg

BobbyBobberson · 18-02-2019 6:24pm

That is some start to your life as an independent.

https://twitter.com/MikeSegalov/status/1097487967730483201

Gringo180 · 18-02-2019 6:27pm

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Chuka Umunna claiming he opposes Corbyn's handling of the approach to Brexit since the referendum is bizarre seeing as he voted in favour of the brexit bill and campaigned during the GE last year on a platform of not holding a second referendum on the basis of respecting the democratic wishes of the people of Britain.

Chuka is a 2 faced snake, a tory in disguise, plenty of them have infiltrated the Labour party.

Subcomandante Marcos · 18-02-2019 6:28pm

Gringo180 wrote: »

Chuka is a 2 faced snake, a tory in disguise, plenty of them have infiltrated the Labour party.

7 new labour blairbabies throwing their toys out of the Oran because their party didn't go full blown Tory.

Yer Da sells Avon · 18-02-2019 6:29pm

Folkstonian wrote: »

Sorry, I don’t quite agree - btw it was a Czechoslovakian intelligence officer he met not a Russian one - but I won’t go into it because it should be beneath any reasonable poster to debate a person who apparently believes that the antisemitism crisis in the labour party is ‘manufactured’

You don't quite agree that the 'Corbyn is an IRA supporter' stuff was nonsense? I'd love to hear more about that, but you seem oddly reticent, choosing instead to make personal attacks while pretending to be 'reasonable'. Guess what - reasonable posters don't call others 'cultists' for having the temerity to express opinions that differ from theirs. The anti-Semitism crisis has absolutely been manufactured, just like the spy rubbish and the IRA stuff. It's a shame there's no appetite for the Tories to be subjected to the same level of scrutiny, regarding racism.

Tom Mann Centuria · 18-02-2019 6:33pm

Gringo180 wrote: »

Chuka is a 2 faced snake, a tory in disguise, plenty of them have infiltrated the Labour party.

Two faced? Chuka? Never! :pac:

Now in a unrelated matter, let's have a game of guess who said this:

I really have no time for calls for a second referendum because I think it comes across as disrespectful to those who voted to leave. Those calls reinforce what I feel is a false stereotype — of a bunch of people in London who think they know best.

Hint: His initials are CU.

Hurrache · 18-02-2019 6:33pm

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

rethoric of people who dislike Corbyn because he's a socialist:

"his handling of brexit is abysmal".

I'm stunned at the blind faith in defending a terrible politician on this thread just because he's in Labour.

I don't care if he's a socialist, what I do know is that his handling and capitalising on Brexit IS abymasal.

Gringo180 · 18-02-2019 6:34pm

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

That is some start to your life as an independent.

https://twitter.com/MikeSegalov/status/1097487967730483201

Or a funny tinge. Is she for real?

Yer Da sells Avon · 18-02-2019 6:35pm

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

That is some start to your life as an independent.

https://twitter.com/MikeSegalov/status/1097487967730483201

Her apology for 'mis-speaking' is like something from The Thick of It.

https://twitter.com/angelasmithmp/status/1097518807357288448

Subcomandante Marcos · 18-02-2019 6:37pm

Hurrache wrote: »

I'm stunned at the blind faith in defending a terrible politicians on this thread just because he's in Labour.

I don't care if he's a socialist, what I do know is that his handling and capitalising on Brexit IS abymasal.

The proposal he's put forward allows Britain to stay in the customs union while achieving some increase in autonomy, retains protections for workers and migrants and allows the UK a seat at the table in future EU trade deals.

It's an infinitely better solution than what's on offer from the many cheeks of the Tory party's rancid arse and actually achievable.
A second referendum will not happen, it would be a bigger cluster fu*k than the first.

BobbyBobberson · 18-02-2019 6:39pm

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

Her apology for 'mis-speaking' is like something from The Thick of It.

https://twitter.com/angelasmithmp/status/1097518807357288448

Glad to see thats one racist Corbyn has rid from the party :pac:

Gringo180 · 18-02-2019 6:39pm

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

Her apology for 'mis-speaking' is like something from The Thick of It.

https://twitter.com/angelasmithmp/status/1097518807357288448

Embarrassing. Thats the new party already dead and buried.

Hurrache · 18-02-2019 6:41pm

Are you ignoring everything since before the referendum up until today and just focusing on that proposal?

As someone said, a bag of turds would have made more political hay against the conservatives given the mess they've made.

super_furry · 18-02-2019 6:43pm

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

rethoric of people who dislike Corbyn because he's a socialist:

"his handling of brexit is abysmal".

It's really not. Socially I'd align myself with the left and up until Brexit, thought he was doing a decent job. I don't anymore, and not just because "his handling of brexit is abysmal", although it truly is.

I struggle to see how anyone can think he's doing a good job, when faced with the most inept, useless broken Tory party there's possibly ever been, he's still losing ground to them.

jm08 · 18-02-2019 6:46pm

Gringo180 wrote: »

Chuka is a 2 faced snake, a tory in disguise, plenty of them have infiltrated the Labour party.

Chucka's grandfather was from Limerick (Helenus Padraic Seosamh Milmo) who was knighted and had quite a distinguished legal career l - part of the Nuremberg trials prosecution team.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helenus_Milmo

quokula · 18-02-2019 6:46pm

super_furry wrote: »

It's really not. Socially I'd align myself with the left and up until Brexit, thought he was doing a decent job. I don't anymore, and not just because "his handling of brexit is abysmal", although it truly is.

I struggle to see how anyone can think he's doing a good job, when faced with the most inept, useless broken Tory party there's possibly ever been, he's still losing ground to them.

There's only been one election since he became leader and he gained a lot of ground. The tories are scared to call a general election because they know they'll be out.

In what way is he losing ground? Apart from a few self important MPs on the right wing of the party deciding to leave and failing to go a whole day without embarassing themselves making racist comments.

Havockk · 18-02-2019 6:48pm

super_furry wrote: »

It's really not. Socially I'd align myself with the left and up until Brexit, thought he was doing a decent job. I don't anymore, and not just because "his handling of brexit is abysmal", although it truly is.

I struggle to see how anyone can think he's doing a good job, when faced with the most inept, useless broken Tory party there's possibly ever been, he's still losing ground to them.

So what, just abdicate to Tory hegemony out of principle? the Centre are some laugh, willing to throw all under a bus when they don't get their way.

Hurrache · 18-02-2019 6:49pm

quokula wrote: »

There's only been one election since he became leader and he gained a lot of ground. The tories are scared to call a general election because they know they'll be out.

But this is not true at all. It's farcical that if there was a snap election the conservatives would gain seats.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/02/11/tories-unlikely-gain-enough-seats-solve-brexit-woe

Roger_007 · 18-02-2019 6:49pm

Havockk wrote: »

I would still stand over the argument that Corbyn would win a GE tomorrow. (**before the split that's to say)

I cannot back what these 7 have done. The risk they have taken is unimaginable.

Corbyn would not not win a GE tomorrow, next week, or indeed, ever. He had his chance in 2017 when the Torys ran the most shambolic campaign I have ever seen and yet Labour came nowhere near beating them.
The problem for Corbyn is that the vast majority of British voters are fundamentally conservative, either with a small c, (Labour voters), or with a large C, (Tory voters).
The large youth vote which Corbyn got in the last election will not hold up due mainly to his dithering on the Brexit question. Most Labour MPs are at odds with Corbyn mainly due to Brexit and his stance on the economy.
Despite the Torys being in disarray with an inept leader and totally split on Brexit, they would still do better than Labour in a GE.
Corbyn is a liability, he is fundamentally a protest politician who found himself in a leadership role and is hopelessly out of his depth. He is like a dog who's spent his life chasing cars, eventually caught up with one but has no idea what to do next.

Hurrache · 18-02-2019 6:51pm

Havockk wrote: »

So what, just abdicate to Tory hegemony out of principle? the Centre are some laugh, willing to throw all under a bus when they don't get their way.

What does any of this mean with regards to how awful Corbyn has been?

Hurrache · 18-02-2019 6:52pm

Gringo180 wrote: »

Embarrassing. Thats the new party already dead and buried.

It's not a new party, they're sitting under the independent umbrella.

MPs quitting Labour & Conservative parties discussion thread

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