Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

Options
12467…325

Comments

  • Options
    #92
    fash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,271 ✭✭✭fash


    joeysoap wrote: »
    If the following is true ( I have no reason to doubt it)


    Have you ever seen the chart of "poorest regions in Northern Europe" - 9 of 10 of them are in the UK - and that if with EU membership protecting the regions and strengthening their economy.

    Why is the UK contribution are a high as they is ( even after the rebate)?
    See here:

    https://metro.co.uk/2014/08/27/uk-is-the-most-financially-unequal-country-in-northern-europe-new-research-reveals-4847533/

    See also the richest area in Northern Europe...


  • Options
    #93
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 17,992 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Quite the Pyrrhic victory, but sure that's what happens with idealism.

    I would go so far as to say that the Brexiteers / Leave voters are "anti patriots" in that they will probably destroy their country in their demand for Brexit at all costs and no matter what the consequences.


  • Options
    #94
    briany
    Registered Users Posts: 13,538 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    The Brexiteers would go bananas. Bendy bananas, of course.

    Let Nigel Farage don khakis and pick up a gun, as he has said. I suggest he will don a suit and pick up the Daily Telegraph instead, though.


  • Options
    #95
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Interesting point from a PPower billboard ad for the visiting rugby fans:

    "Welcome to the largest English speaking city in the EU"
    (post-brexitious)

    Could be useful marketing for language schools (well, assuming they're legit schools),
    Valletta (1/2m) is probably 2nd, in terms of populaiton and ease of use/acceptance of English language.


  • Options
    #96
    fash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,271 ✭✭✭fash


    CelticRambler wrote: »
    It's not true: In 2016, the UK had six of the 10 regions with the lowest GDP per person, from a group of nearby countries.
    I suspect that 2016 (likely just before the brexit vote ) is not a good comparator... - nevertheless thanks for the more updated information.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #97
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,359 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    briany wrote: »
    Let Nigel Farage don khakis and pick up a gun, as he has said. I suggest he will don a suit and pick up the Daily Telegraph instead, though.

    Nigel would ensure he was in some gentleman's club quaffing brandy while patriotic useful idiots were shooting at other patriotic useful idiots. Siegfried Sassoon's poem Base Details was written with the likes of Nigel and his slimey rhetoric in mind.


  • Options
    #98
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    CelticRambler wrote: »
    It's not true: In 2016, the UK had six of the 10 regions with the lowest GDP per person, from a group of nearby countries.

    Also worth noting, the next 6 members to join the EU all have about half the GDP-PP of Germany, so might require some heavy inward investment and contributions.


  • Options
    #99
    Folkstonian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭Folkstonian


    J Mysterio wrote: »
    This argument that 'we had a vote, it has to be respected' is such bullshıt. Do you recognise that there were democratic decisions and 'votes' previous to this? Should they not be respected? Should the GFA not be respected?

    You say 'we should not be held hostage by terrorists' but it is not only the 'terrorists' who are upset, its virtually the entire country next door and a large part of the UK. It's not about being held hostage, but recognising that there is a hard won peace that has been achieved by... a democratic vote. The fact that the UK did not take care to recognise the complexity of the situation before going headfirst into the referendum is part of the problem. You cannot say 'respect our democratic vote' when you show zero respect to all who it affects and in turn run roughshod over previous democratic votes.

    Its this type of British arrogance that marginalizes and disenfranchises people who don't agree which produces terrorists.

    The above is without consideration to the quality of your democratic vote (lies, cheating, lack of information) and the question of what mandate this advisory referendum actually provided.

    Well, I don't respect your vote. I think it was incredibly stupid, incredibly badly run and was hijacked by a right wing elite who will ruin your country and poses a grave threat to ours.

    Whether you personally respect the result or not, is wholly inconsequential and ultimately of no interest to me given the tone of your post.

    The U.K. has no responsibility towards Ireland. It has no responsibility to make life here easier or more prosperous. I’m at a loss as to why this irritates you so much. It has a responsibility, however, to maintain the trust and political engagement of the people it serves in Britain.

    However the salient points are the following; the Conservative party’s flagship manifesto pledge in 2015 was to offer a referendum on EU membership. They won a majority in the general election.

    Parliament subsequently voted to hold the referendum. It was made abundantly clear by the prime minister before the vote was held that the result would be enacted. Leave won the referendum.

    Following another general election, parliament voted overwhelmingly to deliver the article 50 notice to the EU and begin the process of leaving.

    Parliament’s fundamental problem is that it voted multiple times to defer responsibility of this issue to the voting public. It has received the public’s answer but doesn’t really like it.

    So it’s not a matter of whether parliament is inept, or outdated, or not fit for purpose. It is the simple fact that it doesn’t want to do what it promised it would do for three years.

    In the scenario that it decided in stoppage time to overrule the public vote, it’s integrity and it’s connection to the people it serves would in ruin for a generation, perhaps longer.

    So you can chunter on about british arrogance all you like. I dont care. Because ultimately I think the future total lack of engagement in politics in Britain should parliament decide to backtrack will have profoundly negative consequences. People will stop voting. They’ll stop caring.


  • Options
    #100
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Folkstonian wrote: »
    The U.K. has no responsibility towards Ireland. It has no responsibility to make life here easier or more prosperous. I’m at a loss as to why this irritates you so much. It has a responsibility, however, to maintain the trust and political engagement of the people it serves in Britain.

    The uk does responsibility towards the island of Ireland, in the form of N.Ireland. Nearly half of the residents of NI consider themselves Irish, or at the very least Northern Irish.

    It therefore cannot have responsibility 'soley' for 'Britain', as you stated, as this territory does not include NI whilst it is currently part of the uk.


  • Options
    #101
    ThePanjandrum
    Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭ThePanjandrum


    Anthracite wrote: »
    Ah yes - noted anti-establishment figures like Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Duncan-Smith, Redwood...

    If anything, things are taking a turn towards a much older, more deeply entrenched establishment.

    Yes, there are some on the Leave side who are privileged but the Establishment threw its lot in with the EU, as is the situation in your own country.

    The Government has a Remainer majority, the House of Commons has a Remainer majority, the House of Lords has a Remainer majority, the BBC has a Remainer majority, the newspapers have a Remainer majority, the universities have a Remainer majority, the mainline Trade Unions have a Remainer majority, the employers have a Remainer majority, but the ordinary voters went against all of them and voted to leave. The Remain voters, by and large, are more privileged than the Leavers and this is what has caused so much trouble - these people cannot understand why the people did not follow their lead because they are better than the rest of us.

    Gary Younge wrote a good article in the Guardian yesterday https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/01/poorer-brexiters-worse-off-working-class-leavers in some ways it was similar to an article in the paper some years ago by SE Smith which said that the liberal left should not assume that it knows better than the underprivileged what is good for them https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/jul/19/stop-patronising-poor-americans

    Such unexpected self-awareness by both of these journalists is all too rare.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #102
    ThePanjandrum
    Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭ThePanjandrum


    Strazdas wrote: »
    Totally agree. The idea of "respecting the result of the vote" normally applies to general elections and referendums where things passed off smoothly and fairly and there was no hint of criminality or controversy (even if the result was not a very popular one).

    The Brexit referendum is probably the most controversial and contested referendum result in European history, with strong suggestions of criminality, outside interference, not to mention the downright lies of the winning side and their numerous supporters in the media. The referendum was badly worded and was held on something that is proving to be virtually unimplementable.

    Democracy seems to have been an early casualty with many of those who wanted Britain to stay in the EU.


  • Options
    #103
    ThePanjandrum
    Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭ThePanjandrum


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Each and every sector should be diversifying away from Britain. They've shown that they are unable to govern themselves and to have a virulent streak of xenophobic eurosceptism. These flaws won't go away anytime soon so, wherever possible, businesses need to find new markets. Ditto importers. Britain is simply too unstable and directionless.

    What you mean by "virulent streak of xenophobic euroscepticism" is that the United Kingdom wants to trade on fair terms with other countries in the EU and respects these nations but does not want to form a political union with them.

    Some other countries which fought for independence seem anxious now to give their independence away. I find it difficult to follow the mental convolutions which must take place.


  • Options
    #104
    briany
    Registered Users Posts: 13,538 ✭✭✭✭briany


    "We must respect democracy by enacting the decision of the voters."

    "We must respect democracy by allowing voters to change their minds."

    Neither side has been able to convince the other that the above statements are objectively true. If the Russians interfered in the referendum, and, indeed, are continuing to troll the public debate, they'd have done quite well to inject this kind of subjectivism that effectively prevents any true public consensus.


  • Options
    #105
    Folkstonian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭Folkstonian


    briany wrote: »
    Let Nigel Farage don khakis and pick up a gun, as he has said. I suggest he will don a suit and pick up the Daily Telegraph instead, though.

    Yep a foolish, possibly reckless comment from Farage.

    We all know that obviously, obviously Nigel won’t be putting on a tin helmet and digging a foxhole in parliament square any time soon, but there are too many people out there who would be motivated by him blurting our drivel like that to don the yellow vests probably, and react to the vote being overturned by turning out on the streets to smash up shop windows and police cars.


  • Options
    #106
    An Ciarraioch
    Registered Users Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    ThePanjandrum wrote: »
    What you mean by "virulent streak of xenophobic euroscepticism" is that the United Kingdom wants to trade on fair terms with other countries in the EU and respects these nations but does not want to form a political union with them.

    Some other countries which fought for independence seem anxious now to give their independence away. I find it difficult to follow the mental convolutions which must take place.

    Whether it was due to economic dependence on the UK, or simply following a policy of autarky, our fifty years of "absolute" independence left us the poorest nation in Western Europe, so whether or not Brexit would work for Britain, it certainly doesn't benefit our economic model.


  • Options
    #107
    CelticRambler
    Registered Users Posts: 6,695 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    fash wrote: »
    I suspect that 2016 (likely just before the brexit vote ) is not a good comparator... - nevertheless thanks for the more updated information.

    Note to self: be careful what text to C&P as a link! As the linked document shows, the key word was nearby - comparing parts of the UK to parts of Germany, France, BeneLux, etc. It's interesting that people who cite this out-of-date, statistically dubious soundbite seem to still think that "Europe" and "the EU" is still the small band of brotherly nations that speak a variation of French, German or Scandianvian. A comparison with southern or eastern European regions would appear to be irrelevant in their minds.
    Joanna Better Hairpiece wrote: »
    Also worth noting, the next 6 members to join the EU all have about half the GDP-PP of Germany, so might require some heavy inward investment and contributions.

    Indeed. It's also worth noting (see whole-of-EU map in linked document) that southern Ireland (i.e. Munster-Leinster) is rated second highest in the whole of Europe (Luxembourg being the highest). The same chart rates NI as about the same as the Loire Valley, so it's not that bad ... but we've got posher châteaux. :P


  • Options
    #108
    Anthracite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭Anthracite


    Joanna Better Hairpiece wrote: »
    Interesting point from a PPower billboard ad for the visiting rugby fans:

    "Welcome to the largest English speaking city in the EU"
    (post-brexitious)

    Could be useful marketing for language schools (well, assuming they're legit schools),
    Valletta (1/2m) is probably 2nd, in terms of populaiton and ease of use/acceptance of English language.
    Well Cork city is a tad larger than Valetta.


  • Options
    #109
    Anthracite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭Anthracite


    ThePanjandrum wrote: »
    Gary Younge wrote a good article in the Guardian yesterday https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/01/poorer-brexiters-worse-off-working-class-leavers in some ways it was similar to an article in the paper some years ago by SE Smith which said that the liberal left should not assume that it knows better than the underprivileged what is good for them https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/jul/19/stop-patronising-poor-americans

    Such unexpected self-awareness by both of these journalists is all too rare.
    Let's cast aside everything else for a moment and explore this. What have the 'underprivileged' voted for here, and why is it better for them?


  • Options
    #110
    nc6000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,224 ✭✭✭nc6000


    Sky News are reporting Nissan have cancelled plans to build the X-Trail model in Sunderland.


  • Options
    #111
    briany
    Registered Users Posts: 13,538 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Folkstonian wrote: »

    ... but there are too many people out there who would be motivated by him blurting our drivel like that to don the yellow vests probably, and react to the vote being overturned by turning out on the streets to smash up shop windows and police cars.

    Well, if Brexiteers were sensible, violent protest is the very thing they wouldn't do. At least not in a way that's on the offence. There will invariably be a number of them shown on the news, not only smashing shop windows, but helping themselves to the contents inside.

    Having said that, I don't think it will escalate into widespread violence. I do think it will lead to Brexiteers using even more capital letters on their Twitter posts, if you can believe such a thing were possible.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #112
    CelticRambler
    Registered Users Posts: 6,695 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    Folkstonian wrote: »
    I think the future total lack of engagement in politics in Britain should parliament decide to backtrack will have profoundly negative consequences. People will stop voting. They’ll stop caring.

    ... and so Panjandrum's assertion is completely wrong: the Establishment will have won, crushing "the will of the people" by using that same slogan as a weapon against them.

    In an earlier post, someone asked how the British (en masse) could accept a referendum result once it became known how utterly contaminated was the whole process. I see a direct parallel with what's going on in the US. We see and hear Donald Trump blatantly lying, even contradicting his own position on any given topic. His core supporters refuse to believe that he is anything other than America's Saviour, but there's also a huge "middle ground" of disengaged voters who are ready to suffer whatever pain it takes to Make America Great Again, because ... well, will of the people and all that?

    MAGA and Brexit are two variations of the same religious sect. Some commentators have suggested that Britain will become "like France" if Parliament cuts a deal with the EU. I doubt it. The French (as a whole) are very much more engaged with politics, and do care about the way their country is run. Seeing the "Dunkirk Spirit" being vaunted on the news today in respect of motorists stranded in the snow, I doubt very much that many Brits will start burning tyres on every roundabout on March 30th.

    (Can't help thinking that those stranded motorists are a good metaphor for Brexit - they had plenty of warnings, by experts; they had (access to) all the info they needed before setting out; and yet they take to the roads anyway, get stuck and depend on third-party generosity to get them out of a bad situation ... )


  • Options
    #113
    An Ciarraioch
    Registered Users Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    nc6000 wrote: »
    Sky News are reporting Nissan have cancelled plans to build the X-Trail model in Sunderland.

    Faisal Islam has tweeted that as a result of the EU-Japan FTA, moving production to Sunderland, rather than leaving it in Japan, would add a 10% tariff:

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1091719558589829120


  • Options
    #114
    ThePanjandrum
    Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭ThePanjandrum


    An Ciarraioch wrote: »
    Various newspapers suggest May could move towards offering a permanent customs union if/when she gets nowhere next week - would there be an argument for taking that, and finalising arrangements on regulatory alignment during the transition period?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-deal-latest-whitehall-officials-theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-eu-customs-union-a8759226.html

    Don't you find it interesting that a "newspaper" owned and run by an ex-KGB agent who is one of Putin's closest friends should be so unwaveringly behind Remaining? It's almost as if this whole "Russia caused Brexit" nonsense was made up by malcontent Remainers.


  • Options
    #115
    ThePanjandrum
    Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭ThePanjandrum


    Joanna Better Hairpiece wrote: »
    Interesting point from a PPower billboard ad for the visiting rugby fans:

    "Welcome to the largest English speaking city in the EU"
    (post-brexitious)

    Could be useful marketing for language schools (well, assuming they're legit schools),
    Valletta (1/2m) is probably 2nd, in terms of populaiton and ease of use/acceptance of English language.

    Amsterdam is larger.


  • Options
    #116
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    ThePanjandrum wrote: »
    Amsterdam is larger.

    Ireland's got a huge advantage over any of those locations for companies moving, beyond the fact that it's native English speaking.

    The Dutch have a fairly easy grasp of English because Dutch's very similar to it phonetically and structurally, but they're not native speakers and not everyone's 100% fluent by any means. I've lived there and have quite a few Dutch friends who just about get by in English.

    We've an extremely similar business environment to the UK, the most important bit being that our civil law system is very similar to English law. So, a lot of concepts of contract law work here in a very familiar way. It's also much more similar to US law (which has its origins in English law, except for Louisiana)

    There are other similarities to around things like how Revenue approaches tax assessments and accounting systems are basically identical to the UK.

    A move from London to Dublin or Manchester to Cork isn't really that big a culture shock for most companies. Arguably, a move to Edinburgh would actually be more of an upheaval as Scots law's actually based on different fundamental concepts.


  • Options
    #117
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Anthracite wrote: »
    Well Cork city is a tad larger than Valetta.

    Very much doubt Cork (city) is 570,000+.
    ThePanjandrum wrote: »
    Amsterdam is larger.

    Guess so, you can get by 'generally' with only English, in Valletta you can almost 'certainly' always get by, with just English across all spheres of daily life.

    Still it's a very good advertising line, to be able to promote Dub as the EU's largest English speaking capital/city (post-exit).


  • Options
    #118
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    Valetta's very definitely bilingual, particularly if you're talking about media - radio is mostly in Maltese for example. It's arguably even trilingual as there's a huge influence of Italian too.

    You could function monolingually in English, much as you could function in French in Brussels, but you'd still be getting loads of Flemish/Dutch.

    The metro population of Valetta is 393,938 (Urban: 355,000)
    Cork metro 399,216 (Urban: 208,669)

    Valetta would have probably be a bigger and more tightly defined urban area, Cork probably has a bigger metro / hinterland.

    With any of those measures though you'll get distortions. I mean you have some people defining Dublin as half of Leinster when they're trying to stretch the population to the "Greater Dublin Area" which includes Meath, Wicklow and Kildare..
    Dublin metro 1,347,359 (Urban: 1,173,179, Official City: 554,554)

    Either way, Dublin's definitely now the largest officially English speaking city in the EU.

    Although, knowing our government, they've probably officially classified it as Irish speaking.


  • Options
    #119
    ThePanjandrum
    Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭ThePanjandrum


    Anthracite wrote: »
    Let's cast aside everything else for a moment and explore this. What have the 'underprivileged' voted for here, and why is it better for them?

    Can I suggest that you read the articles and see what the authors actually say instead of me putting my gloss on it.


  • Options
    #120
    megaten
    Registered Users Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭megaten


    ThePanjandrum wrote: »
    Can I suggest that you read the articles and see what the authors actually say instead of me putting my gloss on it.

    Why shouls someone else do that for your sake.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #121
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    EdgeCase wrote: »
    Cork metro 399,216 (Urban: 208,669)

    Only 125,657 live in Cork City, according to 2016 census.

    The entire county (of 7,500 km² - the largest county in Ire) is only circa 542,000.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement