I need feminism because... [READ FIRST POST BEFORE POSTING]

Electric Sex Pants · 16-06-2016 4:57pm

Walker Scruffy Trial wrote: »

You're criticising her thoughts. What's it to you if she reflected on her thinking and didn't like what she saw? You can think what you like, and you can think what you like about what you think. You're doing the exact thing you're giving out about

I am not giving out, i am questioning. There is a difference. She said that she needs feminism because of that and i am questioning her thought process. Just asking why

IvyTheTerrible · 16-06-2016 5:00pm

MOD ElectricSexPants, no-one in this thread has to justify why they need feminism.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 16-06-2016 5:04pm

Electric Sex Pants wrote: »

I am not giving out, i am questioning. There is a difference. She said that she needs feminism because of that and i am questioning her thought process. Just asking why

You're making out that her thoughts mean that there's rules about what people are allowed to think, or that she's not entitled to an opinion, those are the words you used. I find that critical and would class it as giving out.

Electric Sex Pants · 16-06-2016 5:07pm

Walker Scruffy Trial wrote: »

You're making out that her thoughts mean that there's rules about what people are allowed to think, or that she's not entitled to an opinion, those are the words you used. I find that critical and would class it as giving out.

No i was saying that her guilt about her thoughts implied such a rule exists. you can class it however you like but i know what i was asking.

meeeeh · 16-06-2016 6:11pm

Electric Sex Pants wrote: »

I am not giving out, i am questioning. There is a difference. She said that she needs feminism because of that and i am questioning her thought process. Just asking why

Because there are some rules placed on women what image they should conform to. They are completely superficial and while I gladly shave my legs women shouldn't be judged if they don't. Even thinking that she should shave her legs might might be just reinforcing societal norms around female beauty that are completely unnecessary and sometimes damaging.

That being said it takes better person than me to feel guilty about it. BTW did they block you from 'A parent kills gorilla' thread in parenting forum and you had to find a new sandbox to play in?

IvyTheTerrible · 16-06-2016 6:25pm

MOD Let's get back on topic please, and remember NO mentioning other forums.

sullivlo · 16-06-2016 6:44pm

Electric Sex Pants wrote: »

I am not giving out, i am questioning. There is a difference. She said that she needs feminism because of that and i am questioning her thought process. Just asking why

Just to clarify.

I am female. As a female I feel like I'm under a huge amount of pressure to "conform" to the societal norms. Such as being expected to be preened and looking well all of the time. Such as the pressure I feel, as a female, to have my legs shaved when I wear shorts.

So to catch myself subconsciously judging someone for not conforming, despite me hating the need to conform, it made me feel uneasy and realise that I need feminism so that women don't need to conform.

bridgettedon · 21-06-2016 12:31am

For me personally I feel one of the main issues is how women can be viewed by certain people as just sex objects, something to be marked from 1 to 10 on attractiveness. As a teenager I found this very upsetting. It's only now I realise the impact it had on me. It was when I read an article written by Louise O Neill about it. How suddenly who are a girl and then you become a teenager and are objectified or ignored because you aren't deemed attractive.

Usually I dislike this type of talk as I would see it as dramatic and a part of growing up. However it's not fair. I'm sure everyone has had the teenage boys make comments to your face about your body and face. Some good, some bad comments. Why do this. In fact some men still continue to do this no matter what their age. I wish I could of told my younger self to not let that bother me but it did. It really affected my confidence.

Two Tone · 21-06-2016 8:48am

Tbh, I love compliments - and the vast vast majority of men don't treat me just in relation to how I look (whether looking good or looking dragged through a bush) but it does tick me off when a woman is e.g. a scientist or politician or businesswoman or sportswoman etc and her looks (whether good or deemed bad) are disproportionately focused on. See: historian Mary Beard and writer/scientist Colleen McCullough.

There are women who can be as bad for it though - look at the Femail yoke in The Daily Mail.

midlandsmissus · 21-06-2016 2:44pm

bridgettedon wrote: »

For me personally I feel one of the main issues is how women can be viewed by certain people as just sex objects, something to be marked from 1 to 10 on attractiveness. As a teenager I found this very upsetting. It's only now I realise the impact it had on me. It was when I read an article written by Louise O Neill about it. How suddenly who are a girl and then you become a teenager and are objectified or ignored because you aren't deemed attractive.

Usually I dislike this type of talk as I would see it as dramatic and a part of growing up. However it's not fair. I'm sure everyone has had the teenage boys make comments to your face about your body and face. Some good, some bad comments. Why do this. In fact some men still continue to do this no matter what their age. I wish I could of told my younger self to not let that bother me but it did. It really affected my confidence.

I would have experienced this too. The amount of older men who made me feel uncomfortable as a teenager.

Annasopra · 22-06-2016 8:38am

Electric Sex Pants wrote: »

Isn't that just a human condition though? we are hard wired to judge those who are different from what our society seems as normal. There was a time when being different may have resulted in you getting eaten by something.

So my point is that she said she feels genuinely horrible for having a perfectly natural response to something that is out of the norm in western society. I appreciate there is a contradiction but my point is still valid isnt it, the idea of feeling so bad because of a thought is a bit extreme?

A human condition that we are hardwired to think a certain way? You're having a laugh. Our thoughts are not just something etched into our brains that cannot be influenced externally. There are lots of external influences on our thoughts.

Electric Sex Pants · 22-06-2016 1:21pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

A human condition that we are hardwired to think a certain way? You're having a laugh. Our thoughts are not just something etched into our brains that cannot be influenced externally. There are lots of external influences on our thoughts.

So you are saying we have no natural instincts and though processes and its all externally constructed?

Aurum · 24-06-2016 12:42am

Electric Sex Pants wrote: »

So you are saying we have no natural instincts and though processes and its all externally constructed?

Sure, there is the primal, atavistic part of a human brain, the "try to reproduce and don't die" part. However, humans are evolved enough to be able to develop impulse control, rationality and a basic sense of morality. The response of "ah! a thing that's different" is primal, but the standards and norms that exist in society are largely constructs, and they are what we use to determine "acceptable thing" and "unacceptable/uncomfortably different thing". These thoughts, and the negative actions that they can provoke, often disproportionately harm certain groups in society, so yes, when we have thoughts that perpetuate that we should challenge them.

sullivlo · 24-06-2016 4:10am

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

MOD ElectricSexPants, no-one in this thread has to justify why they need feminism.

MOD
A reminder ESP - you're entitled to your opinion and to query things, but this thread is not the place. Final warning. Will be cards if further derailing the thread.

Everyone else back on topic please.

constance tench · 21-07-2016 4:44am

sullivlo wrote: »

Just to clarify.

I am female. As a female I feel like I'm under a huge amount of pressure to "conform" to the societal norms. Such as being expected to be preened and looking well all of the time. Such as the pressure I feel, as a female, to have my legs shaved when I wear shorts.

So to catch myself subconsciously judging someone for not conforming, despite me hating the need to conform, it made me feel uneasy and realise that I need feminism so that women don't need to conform.

Women's magazines should be boycotted.

Scarinae · 23-07-2016 11:19am

Because victim blaming is still acceptable according to The Sun

Well clearly she was asking to be raped and murdered then, according to that tabloid rag ... At least the comments under the tweet are mostly outraged as well

* I've just realised that the embedded tweet probably doesn't display on mobiles - the tweet from The Sun's account has a picture of 20-year-old India Chipchase, who was raped and throttled to death in Northampton in January, along with the text Woman ‘drank six Jagerbombs in ten minutes on the night she was raped and murdered’

Dolbert · 23-07-2016 5:05pm

^That is all kinds of disgusting. I wouldn't expect anything more from The Scum.

ThepoolEIRE88 · 04-08-2016 7:12pm

As a Guy I really felt Bad for some off the Things the boys said about Louise O'Neill on here recently ,It was too much ,nobody deserves that **** , I watched some interviews and read some article's she wrote ,To me she seems genuine ,arty creative Type ,good natured person, she reminds me off Emma Watson ''sort off'' , there is some truth to watch she says ,and alot off what she says goes over my head ,but i still respect her ,because she is consistent and believes in it,she is a good spokesperson for women

I can't understand why the lads turned on her like that ,maybe it's the ''Milo yiannopoulos'' effect ,or she's the one on top right now,but they're far worse than her out there like J valenti & other Antagonizers

so basically what i'm trying to say is Men need to stop listening too Antagonizers like Milo yiannopoulos

and women need to stop listening to Antagonizers like J valenti

''and wise the **** up''

PressRun · 05-08-2016 9:15pm

ThepoolEIRE88 wrote: »

so basically what i'm trying to say is Men need to stop listening too Antagonizers like Milo yiannopoulos

and women need to stop listening to Antagonizers like J valenti

''and wise the **** up''

I'd agree that there seems to be a tendency in recent times to give a lot of credence to the opinions of online commentators. The internet seems to be the primary source about anything pertaining to gender issues nowadays, and while there's certainly some positives to be taken from the freedom of expression offered by social media, it's probably worth bearing in mind that the majority of those who scream the loudest about gender online are often quite poorly educated in what it is they're trying to talk about. Many of them remind me of schoolchildren who haven't done the reading but still want to dominate the discussion, and yet I continue to be surprised by the amount of people I meet in real life who appear to have formed their opinions on certain matters from what they've read on the internet.

There are many respected, well read and balanced authors out there who have plenty of insightful things to say on feminism and masculinity, but sadly the likes of this Milo fellow shout the loudest and therefore everyone picks up and runs with whatever controversial, antagonistic nonsense they're spouting from one moment to the next. And the worst thing about it is that these individuals thrive on the controversy and likely believe very little of what they're saying. They simply enjoy the thought that they're outraging some people and making others feel validated in equal measure. It's all about themselves and how much attention they can garner from the situation.

There's a lot to be said for putting forth reasonably intellectual arguments about these matters that are backed by some element of research, whether you agree or disagree with someone. Instead it seems some people, probably moreso younger people, would rather engage with the reactionary stuff we see online that is more often than not being peddled by people who do nothing but rant and rave and serve no purpose other than to be divisive and deliberately provocative for the sake of it.

ThepoolEIRE88 · 06-08-2016 2:33am

sure I agree
Three types off people that annoy me in the Gender thing

The radical feminist's that just use feminism as an excuse to have the green light to shout at men for their own shortcomings

The radical male anti-feminist's that use feminism as the green light to shout at women for their own shortcomings

The white knight male feminists that pretend they're feminist's just as an easy way to get sex

Back to Louise

I don't mind Louise O'Neill at all ,I like her ,she seems at bit gullible and radical but she also seems honest and clever and open-minded enough to change her mind if a reasonable argument was put up too her, about certain topics

she's also the type off person if i had a conversation with, could probably open my mind to discrimination women face ,that i may not realize as a man

As I said before she reminds me off Emma Watson because her feminism is coming from a place off concern for women more than a hatred off men

orubiru · 11-08-2016 10:48am

constance tench wrote: »

Women's magazines should be boycotted.

I'm not sure I understand why.

Some women obviously enjoy these kinds of magazines, hence they are on sale just about everywhere.

Who should Feminism serve in this scenario? Women who want the right to buy and enjoy these women's magazines or women who want the right to take these women's magazines off the shelves?

Both sets of women are asking for the right to do something how can you resolve that issue? How can Feminism specifically resolve that issue?

What about the women who work as models for these magazines? What happens to their rights?

I guess what I am asking is can Feminism fight for the right of a woman to create wealth by selling her image rights to magazines while simultaneously seeking to remove her ability to sell her image rights because that puts too much pressure on other women to be like her? It seems like a massive contradiction.

People talk about the pressure applied by these magazines, the pressure to conform to a particular standard. However, when pressure is applied to the creators of these magazines are we not also just asking them to conform to a standard that we find more acceptable?

If you could have your desired outcome regarding these magazines then wouldn't that actually mean that the pressure to conform is still there, and still as strong as it ever was, but just running in the opposite direction?

I can't help but feel that in a situation like this it is better to accept that there will always be some kind of pressure to conform or fit in or be "the right way" in society. Once this has been accepted we can equip people with the tools to relieve that pressure and overcome the obstacles that it causes.

The pressure applied to women from society is constantly shifting. These days there could be incredible pressure to look good in a bikini but 50 years from now there could be incredible pressure to cover up and never even be seen in a shop that sells bikinis. The pressure will always be there in some form.

So maybe instead of encouraging people to blame society for their insecurities, and therefore put themselves permanently in the role of "victim", it would be better to teach them that societal pressure is something that they can choose to resist and overcome, if that's actually what they want.

I'd rather live in a world where people are taught how to deal with pressure than a world where the default position is to demand that the source of the pressure be removed.

We're not talking about criminal activity here, after all. It's just magazines. Magazines that plenty of women enjoy reading, or looking at. Magazines that plenty of women make a living from.

We are essentially arguing that Group A should force Group B to conform to the standards of Group A because Group B is forcing Group A to conform to the standards of Group B. What? How can you even untangle that knot?

orubiru · 11-08-2016 11:13am

sullivlo wrote: »

Just to clarify.

I am female. As a female I feel like I'm under a huge amount of pressure to "conform" to the societal norms. Such as being expected to be preened and looking well all of the time. Such as the pressure I feel, as a female, to have my legs shaved when I wear shorts.

So to catch myself subconsciously judging someone for not conforming, despite me hating the need to conform, it made me feel uneasy and realise that I need feminism so that women don't need to conform.

I've been thinking about this kind of thing a lot recently.

While watching the Olympics I saw one of those Always adverts that is basically complaining about how society tells women they can't be athletes, boxers, rugby players etc. Yet, there are many highly successful, highly empowered, highly driven women competing at the Olympic games.

The stories we are telling ourselves are not focused on women who are successful but rather are focused on the idea that society is deliberately set up to prevent women from achieving.

My concern here would be that constantly telling women about the pressure to conform and constantly telling them just how difficult it is to overcome that pressure it actually does the opposite of empowering them. Is that even possible?

Could it encourage them to give up to soon? Or to just stop trying?

I feel like it's easier to give up and just complain that society is holding you back when there is no shortage of people willing to nod their heads in agreement.

Look at the women at the Olympic games. Are they conforming? Is society holding them back? Or are they totally empowered and in charge of their own destinies?

Do you need Feminism to remove the need to conform by appealing to a higher authority to fix the rules and the laws so that you can be gifted success by default?

Do you need Feminism to remove the need to conform by changing society so that simply existing as you are is deemed success?

Society puts pressure on you to conform to their standards so in response you put pressure on society to conform to your standards.

It wouldn't seem fair to look at all these people idolising Jessica Ennis-Hill and demand that society be changed so that women like her are not put on a pedestal. To demand that nobody dare look at her and then look at you and think "yeah, I'd rather be like Jessica". If society idolises successful athletes... so what? If society idolises certain models or certain body types... so what?

Is it "realistic" for all women to want to be an Olympic Heptathlon Gold Medallist? Probably not. Should we set ourselves in opposition to the idolising of people who can achieve that success? I don't think so.

Would it be better for Feminism to teach people the skills required to deal with expectations and to deal with the fact that some people will be hugely successful and idolised while others will not? Instead of encouraging bitterness towards those who are held up as models etc?

Would it be better for Feminism to give you the tools to overcome the pressure to conform? Basically, accepting that we are all expected to conform but if we work hard and have confidence then we don't even need to care about the pressure that society puts on us.

When it comes to frivolous things like sports or fashion or entertainment, instead of adopting an attitude where "society needs to change because I don't feel comfortable doing what I want" it would be better to have the ability to say "I'm going to do what I want and that's all there is to it"?

Minera · 20-08-2016 6:14pm

I need feminism because I told my OH I couldn't go to a wedding last weekend because I didn't have a dress and he told me I don't need a dress.... He was right.
Somewhere along the way I lost my feminism and started to conform to stereotypical beliefs again

Lux23 · 23-08-2016 2:45pm

Because men tell me I don't need it and that I am "more equal" than they are.

B0jangles · 24-08-2016 2:25pm

This story is making me so goddamn angry at the moment:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/burkini-swimwear-ban-france-nice-armed-police-hijab-muslim-a7206776.html

Armed police have forced a woman on a beach in Nice to remove her burkini as part of a controversial new ban.

The incident occurred on the beach at the city's Promenade des Anglais, the location of the lorry attack on Bastille Day in which 84 people were killed last month.

Photographs show four police officers armed with handguns, batons and pepper spray standing round the woman who was lying on the beach wearing a blue headscarf and matching top.

After speaking to the woman, she appears to remove the blue long-sleeve top.

She is thought to have been issued with a fine and warned about the new dress code on the beach.

Several women have now been fined in France for wearing the swim wear.

On Tuesday a 34-year-old mother of two, whose family have been French citizens for at least three generations, told French news agency AFP she had been fined on the beach in Cannes, 18 miles from Nice, for wearing leggings, a top and a headscarf.

The former air-hostess from Toulouse was issued a ticket saying she was not wearing “an outfit respecting good morals and secularism”.

“I was sitting on a beach with my family,” she said. “I wasn't even planning to swim, just to dip my feet.”

After initially refusing to undress in front of the officers who were reportedly holding tear gas canisters, she was issued with an on-the-spot fine while other people on the beach allegedly shouted insults, telling her to “go home”.

Mathilde Cusin, a French journalist for France 4 TV, who witnessed the incident, said: “I saw three police officers watching the beach. One of them had his finger on the trigger of his tear gas device, no doubt containing pepper."

“It was pretty violent. I had the impression of a pack going after a woman sitting on the ground, crying with her daughter.”

“The saddest thing was that people were shouting ‘go home’, some were applauding the police,” she said. “Her daughter was crying.”

Armed police force woman to remove burkini on Nice beach

On Monday, Twitter user Feiza Ben Mohamed uploaded a video which shows officers patrolling a beach and reportedly waiting for two girls to come out of the water where they were met by police in Nice.

Nice is the most recent French resort to ban the burkini, following bans in the Corsican town of Disco, and the Riviera resorts of Cannes and Villeneuve-Loubet.

But the bans are now set to be scrutinised by France’s State Council, the country’s highest administrative court, after human rights groups challenged the ban.

France, the home of the secular state is literally policing how women choose to dress. It's amazing how the hyper-religious and super-secular can come together and agree that the real problem is controlling women's choices.

ancapailldorcha · 24-08-2016 2:30pm

Thought about posting that here. It's royally messed up. How far are the French willing to go with this. Armed police? What would have happened if she refused? What if she refuses the fine? Utter lunacy.

sullivlo · 24-08-2016 2:32pm

I could be wrong but I'm not sure whether this is a feminism issue, or just an absolutely messed up anti-Islam issue.

Either way, its ****.

ancapailldorcha · 24-08-2016 2:35pm

sullivlo wrote: »

I could be wrong but I'm not sure whether this is a feminism issue, or just an absolutely messed up anti-Islam issue.

Either way, its ****.

Bit of a grey area alright. It seems to only be women who are being policed in this way.

sullivlo · 24-08-2016 2:37pm

Because men don't wear Burkas...

B0jangles · 24-08-2016 2:37pm

I think it is a feminist issue because of all the methods they could have chosen to address issue around terrorism, the radicalization of young people etc. etc., they chose the age-old tactic of scapegoating and demonizing what women choose to wear. Some muslim men dress in a distinctive way/grow full beards - don't see a beard ban coming down the line.

Malari · 24-08-2016 2:44pm

sullivlo wrote: »

I could be wrong but I'm not sure whether this is a feminism issue, or just an absolutely messed up anti-Islam issue.

Either way, its ****.

Yeah, it's particularly Islam dress that's the issue, isn't it, not the way women dress, per se? If she had been on the beach in jeans, long-sleeved top and a sun-hat this surely wouldn't have happened.

meeeeh · 24-08-2016 2:45pm

You can't hide explosives in a beard. While I don't overly like what they are doing I can completely understand why they have tear gas ready.

B0jangles · 24-08-2016 2:48pm

My point is that authoritarianism whether religious or otherwise regularly manifests itself as a disturbing level of interest in how women choose to dress. I'm no fan of what a burka or chador represent, but I'm damn well against forcing a woman to undress to match my expectations of what 'acceptable' is.

Edit: this is a burkini:

It's basically like pyjamas with a hood, slightly more coverage than a wetsuit.

sullivlo · 24-08-2016 2:54pm

But what women wear is related to their religion rather than their gender. It's not solely a religious issue, but it's most defo not solely a feminism issue.

Women should be allowed to wear what they like. In France they are. Once its not a Burka.

B0jangles · 24-08-2016 2:58pm

I never said it was solely a feminist issue, but it is absolutely notable that of all the measures they could have chosen to implement, they chose the easy path of targeting how women dress on the beach, intersectionality and all that jazz.

Malari · 24-08-2016 3:05pm

If she took that hood piece off, it couldn't easily be identified as burka-inspired swimwear, so it's really the head-piece that's the issue, therefore a religious issue, mainly.

Crochet · 24-08-2016 3:08pm

There is not a single non Muslim woman in France who would wear that on a hot sunny day at the beach. Bearing that fact in mind it doesn't make sense that a subset of Islamic women would choose it given complete freedom of choice. Do Islamic men dress like that considering they do have complete freedom of choice? Absolutely not.

baby and crumble · 24-08-2016 3:38pm

meeeeh wrote: »

You can't hide explosives in a beard. While I don't overly like what they are doing I can completely understand why they have tear gas ready.

In what world can you hide explosives in a burkini? Seriously, it's actually quite fitted. And why, when 90% of the fanatical extremist terrorists are men, is this fairly innocuous piece of clothing freaking people out so much? It's an easy visual target, and once again, women are the scapegoats. What do they think is going to happen that they would need to be ready to spray someone, whose only "crime" is wearing a piece of clothing, with TEAR GAS????

The reason I see this as a feminist issue is because she was forced, under threat of personal violence from men, to get undressed in public. If that isn't a feminist issue I have no idea what is.

meeeeh · 24-08-2016 3:49pm

baby and crumble wrote: »

In what world can you hide explosives in a burkini? Seriously, it's actually quite fitted. And why, when 90% of the fanatical extremist terrorists and men, is this fairly innocuous piece of clothing freaking people out so much? It's an easy visual target, and once again, women are the scapegoats. What do they think is going to happen that they would need to be ready to spray someone, whose only "crime" is wearing a piece of clothing, with TEAR GAS????

The reason I see this as a feminist issue is because she was forced, under threat of personal violence from men, to get undressed in public. If that isn't a feminist issue I have no idea what is.

Oh yeah it's all about picking on women. I am sure muslim men suffer absolutely no hassle in France at the moment.

I don't agree with the ban and I think it's stupid exactly because it will lead to situations like this. And cause unnecessary distress to women who are already trodden on by their religion. Still let's not pretend burkini is symbol of female liberation.

Crochet · 24-08-2016 4:03pm

meeeeh wrote: »

And cause unnecessary distress to women who are already trodden on by their religion. Still let's not pretend burkini is symbol of female liberation.

I take your point but if the state doesnt tackle this oppression then who will? I would hate if I had to explain to my daughter that a women wears one of these because she is oppressed. She would think that in certain circumstances the state allows oppression of women.

B0jangles · 24-08-2016 4:13pm

It should be pointed out that the inventor of the burkini is an Australian muslim woman whose aim in making it was to make it easier for muslim women to participate in swimming and other sports activities.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/24/i-created-the-burkini-to-give-women-freedom-not-to-take-it-away

I'm profoundly uncomfortable with the idea of telling women from other cultures that either they must adhere to all the cultural norms of my society or stay out of sight. That's the Saudi way, not mine.

cookiexx · 24-08-2016 4:25pm

Don't really get the burkini outrage to be honest.

France is a secular country. It bans public displays of conspicuous signs of religion, the burkini is a sign of Islamic extremism not consistent with France's secularism. France has had a catastrophic couple of years where it's failed to stop several high profile terror attacks so of course they're going to become less tolerant to public displays of religious fanaticism. France is reeling right now. These sorts of provincial reactions are understandable.

Many women won't be forced to wear burkinis, but in choosing to do so, they're making a statement about the importance of "modesty" - for women - but not for men. Something that's woven into the fabric of Islam - that women cannot be so "immodest" as to "flaunt their bodies" to surrounding men. It's fundamentally a patriarchal idea tied up with the notion that women are "owned" by their father until marriage, when they transfer ownership to the husband. How does that fit with the modern progressive notion of feminism?

Crochet · 24-08-2016 4:33pm

B0jangles wrote: »

I'm profoundly uncomfortable with the idea of telling women from other cultures that either they must adhere to all the cultural norms of my society or stay out of sight. That's the Saudi way, not mine.

You are saying that culture supersedes the freedom of women. That is simply wrong.

B0jangles · 24-08-2016 4:34pm

The burkini is not a sign of islamic extremism, as I just posted it was invented about a decade ago in Australia to give muslim women more options in swimwear. The woman at the centre of the actual story wasn't even wearing one, she was wearing an ordinary top with leggings, she just happened to also be wearing a headscarf.

To me, feminism is about empowering women to make free choices about how they want to live their lives, not instructing them to live as I think they should.

baby and crumble · 24-08-2016 4:36pm

Crochet wrote: »

I take your point but if the state doesnt tackle this oppression then who will? I would hate if I had to explain to my daughter that a women wears one of these because she is oppressed. She would think that in certain circumstances the state allows oppression of women.

Why are you so convinced that women who wear the hijab, or niqab, or even the burka are "oppressed"? Perhaps it is actually their choice?

Check out from 1:37 in this video (actually the whole video is great but please do watch from there as it addresses this really well)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gkxm6bKtsk

B0jangles · 24-08-2016 4:39pm

Crochet wrote: »

You are saying that culture supersedes the freedom of women. That is simply wrong.

That's pretty much the opposite of what I said? I believe women should be free to choose how to live their lives. I am opposed to women being forced to wear chadors/burkas, I am just as opposed to women being forced to remove clothing, especially when its done in public and under the threat of violence.

Crochet · 24-08-2016 4:50pm

B0jangles wrote: »

I believe women should be free to choose how to live their lives.

Can a woman freely choose to leave a conservative Islamic culture? I'm not quite sure they can.

baby and crumble · 24-08-2016 4:58pm

Crochet wrote: »

Can a woman freely choose to leave a conservative Islamic culture? I'm not quite sure they can.

I didn't realise that the Muslim women I've met who have come from a different country were figments of my imagination.

I didn't realise the mixed marriages I know between Muslims and non-Muslims were also all my head.

I didn't realise we were just going to completely ignore the many thousands/ millions of Muslim women who repeatedly speak their minds, and are encouraged to do so by their friends and family.

There's a hint of Donald Trump about this view- remember that Muslim wife he was so convinced was told not to speak out?

B0jangles · 24-08-2016 5:02pm

Crochet wrote: »

Can a woman freely choose to leave a conservative Islamic culture? I'm not quite sure they can.

How do you suggest we help women trapped in such situations? Banning burkas in public spaces may mean these women will no longer be able to leave the house at all.

Focussing on eliminating the outward trappings of culture like clothing is unhelpful and patronizing; better to focus on access to the legal system, education, social services and so on.

cookiexx · 24-08-2016 5:13pm

B0jangles wrote: »

The burkini is not a sign of islamic extremism, as I just posted it was invented about a decade ago in Australia to give muslim women more options in swimwear. The woman at the centre of the actual story wasn't even wearing one, she was wearing an ordinary top with leggings, she just happened to also be wearing a headscarf.

I read that article and I stopped at modesty. And "we chose to be modest". The implication being that women who don't cover their hair and their shape are immodest, courting attention, undignified, provocative in some way simply for being visible.

Perhaps rather than designing garments to accommodate the extreme "modesty" imposed on women by Islam, she could have examined and challenged the necessity for those gender-exclusive modesty norms in the first place? Where's the male burkini?

The burkini ban isn't telling women they can't cover up on public beaches if they so choose. It's telling them they can't specifically adorn demonstrative beachwear which displays religious affiliation, at a time when France and places of worship are currently the target of terrorist attacks.

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