Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

ambro25 · 23-09-2019 12:48pm

Patser wrote: »

I wonder is it pure coincidence Spain come out with this, a few days after the UK Dept for Brexit posted a few tweets directly aimed at the damage a no deal would do to Spain - UK imports billions in cars, fruit and veg, also British tourists spend millions in Spain, so we can mess you up Spain.

Today Spain responds 100,000s retired UK ex-pats live here, who'll suddenly find their lives a lot harder, most will have to return home and their Spanish homes will be worthless. Your problem then UK

France and Luxembourg have long taken, and publicised, similar reciprocity-based legislative measures concerning resident Brits potentially caught out by Brexit.

Other EU member states most probably as well, but I take my daily news from UK, FR and LU, so might have missed them.

That said, the tone of such earlier publicising was always friendlier/positively spun, with the focus on the continuity afforded to those Brits, rather than the rights taken away from them. So yes, you could be onto something here. An unfortunate development if so, as that is only going to attract more rethoric.

An Ciarraioch · 23-09-2019 12:49pm

If the UK is still in the EU in November, four parties would poll over 20%:

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1176087917149728768

Enzokk · 23-09-2019 12:55pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

Try as I might, I just can't understand the logic of creeps like Michael Gove.

What he is saying is the survival of the Tory party is more important than the evisveration of the UK in a No Deal crashout. That's madness. The height of irresponsibility and selfishness. How he can say that without blushing is beyond me, what a cretin.

What is more galling is that during the leadership election he was open to the idea of extending article 50. Now all of a sudden it has become a matter of life and death of the party?

It seems like, from twitter, the ruling from the Supreme Court is going to be made tomorrow at 10h30.

https://twitter.com/JoshuaRozenberg/status/1176101638634950656?s=20

Professor Moriarty · 23-09-2019 12:57pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Nothing much Corbyn could do in June 2016.
Cameron never reached out to him for cross-party support at all because it wasn't needed. Because Dave was an absolute expert at winning these things (2 elections, AV voting, Scotland, 100% success rate, mr invincible) and didn't need anyone sharing the credit.
So Corbyn was pretty much side-lined by the leaders of the Remain campaign, and the broadcasting rules which require equal coverage of both sides concentrated on the 'government' side.

Corbyn gave a few weak interviews, and a few actually excellent written columns which got roundly ignored.

He has a long history of Eurosceptism and this was a major factor in his watery 'endorsement' of Remain as Leader of the Opposition. That and his lack of charisma meant that populists like Farage and Johnson shone much brighter.

WomanSkirtFan8 · 23-09-2019 1:03pm

Shelga wrote: »

Dominic Raab saying he is confident a deal can be done by mid October. He is living on cloud cuckoo land.

always was. I mean this is the guy who apparently didn't know how important the Dover to calais is as a trading route is to the UK's economy.

Professor Moriarty · 23-09-2019 1:10pm

WomanSkirtFan8 wrote: »

always was. I mean this is the guy who apparently didn't know how important the Dover to calais is as a trading route is to the UK's economy.

Anything Raab says must be understood in the context of personal ambition. He'll say or do anything if it suits his political future. Truth and reality is a distant second.

A Shropshire Lad · 23-09-2019 1:22pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Anything Raab says must be understood in the context of personal ambition. He'll say or do anything if it suits his political future. Truth and reality is a distant second.

Raab is the embodiment of an untrustworthy slippery politician. A mouth full of soundbites and an unconvincing grin. Would stab anyone in the back for gain, as he did with May.

Professor Moriarty · 23-09-2019 1:25pm

A Shropshire Lad wrote: »

Raab is the embodiment of an untrustworthy slippery politician. A mouth full of soundbites and an unconvincing grin. Would stab anyone in the back for gain, as he did with May.

Very well put.

Calina · 23-09-2019 2:00pm

According to David Allen Green, UK Supreme court result to be issued at 10.30 UK tomorrow.

Tell me how · 23-09-2019 2:21pm

A Shropshire Lad wrote: »

Raab is the embodiment of an untrustworthy slippery politician. A mouth full of soundbites and an unconvincing grin. Would stab anyone in the back for gain, as he did with May.

He doesn't have the charisma to pull off the quintessential stereotype politician of shaking your hand while stabbing you in the back and smiling to your face.

Beggars belief how he has gotten so far with such an empty arsenal. He couldn't even feign intelligence on the matter through sheer bravado in the manner David Davis could while being equally bereft of any significant knowledge or strategy.

Akrasia · 23-09-2019 2:54pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

As a Leader of the Opposition in a time of crisis, Corbyn is useless. His political ideology is at variance with most party voters and the large majority of the British public. His position on Brexit is at variance with party members and most MPs. He remains a charisma free zone. He has dithered and prevaricated on Brexit (probably deliberately so) to the point where nobody can say what Labour's position is on Brexit. Even if there were a definitive position, it would change tomorrow. His failure to lead throughout the Brexit fiasco is a disgrace. It is no wonder that his approval rating have been consistently dire despite the dreadful performances of May and Johnson. He is the Tory party's best friend.

He also bears some responsibility for Brexit because, as leader of the Labour party, he completely failed to mobilise the vote in the referendum. He barely campaigned during the referendum campaign and helped to give an open goal to the lying corrupt and criminal antics of the vote leave campaigns

Corbyn is partially responsible for Brexit, because he wants brexit to happen, and he used his position as the leader of the 2nd biggest political party in Britain to help bring that about.

briany · 23-09-2019 3:04pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Beggars belief how he has gotten so far with such an empty arsenal. He couldn't even feign intelligence on the matter through sheer bravado in the manner David Davis could while being equally bereft of any significant knowledge or strategy.

They don't call him Dominic 'I didn't know the Dover-Calais route was so important' Raab for nothing.

serfboard · 23-09-2019 3:09pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Beggars belief how he has gotten so far with such an empty arsenal.

Whenever someone posts here something about a Tory moron, I first make the assumption that they represent a safe Tory seat. And, of course he does:

Wikipedia wrote:

Raab was elected to Parliament at the 2010 election to represent Esher and Walton, a safe Conservative seat in Surrey.

And Raab didn't have to challenge the sitting MP, Ian Taylor, who stood down at the 2010 election. Funny enough, Taylor was a Europhile - this was posted in 2009:

Conservative Home wrote:

With David Curry, also leaving the Commons, Mr Taylor is one of the parliamentary party's last EU enthusiasts. Ken Clarke MP and John Gummer MP will be even more isolated in the next Parliament.

And after that was written, John Gummer also stood down as an MP in 2010.

NotToScale · 23-09-2019 3:20pm

That statement about Dover was fairly shocking as he seemed to be looking at just the bulk tonnage of freight, rather than the type of traffic. Dover is hugely busy for Ro-Ro and passenger traffic and a lot of the short shelf-life urgent freight, notably food, comes in on Ro-Ro routes, not in bulk container freight.

There's a large amount of data on UK ports, in very easy to understand format from the UK Department for Transport and it's extremely well laid out and infographical. It's fairly inexcusable for anyone in officialdom or the media to be commentating on this topic without being briefed at this stage, yet I'm seeing and hearing it all the time.

I remember during the bank crisis here, pretty much everyone had a fairly developed knowledge of economics within a few months and there really weren't that many people here making stupid statements. In the UK it seems like a lot of people are still quite happy to just quote things said in the Express or whatever. I mean we could have easily gone down a rabbit hole of eurosceptic, blame someone else nonsense during the financial crisis, and a few did, but the vast majority did not and generally correctly blamed our own policies and Fianna Fail took a huge electoral hit for that, and rightly so - that's how political responsibility should work.

In the UK, however, they're jousting at overseas windmills and imagined monsters to solve domestic problems.

https:// assets.publishing.service.gov.uk /government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/762200/port-freight-statistics-2017.pdf

Delete the extra spaces (I can't post URLs yet)

murphaph · 23-09-2019 3:20pm

Patser wrote: »

I wonder is it pure coincidence Spain come out with this, a few days after the UK Dept for Brexit posted a few tweets directly aimed at the damage a no deal would do to Spain - UK imports billions in cars, fruit and veg, also British tourists spend millions in Spain, so we can mess you up Spain.

Today Spain responds 100,000s retired UK ex-pats live here, who'll suddenly find their lives a lot harder, most will have to return home and their Spanish homes will be worthless. Your problem then UK

And it'll be the poorer pensioners living off the state pension that will have to go home. This cohort does NOT contribute all that much to the Spanish economy as they don't have much to contribute. The better off ones will be able to stay in Spain.

J Mysterio · 23-09-2019 3:35pm

I've seen this statement from No.10 being replied to on Twitter in a number of different contexts, but the shocking thing is the statement itself. Official No.10 spokespeople are now using this type of language? 'Remainiacs'?

https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1175802705891274753

Strazdas · 23-09-2019 3:55pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

I've seen this statement from No.10 being replied to on Twitter in a number of different contexts, but the shocking thing is the statement itself. Official No.10 spokespeople are now using this type of language? 'Remainiacs'?

https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1175802705891274753

You'll not that "the public" in the eyes of No.10 are those who voted to leave. If you're not a Brexiteer, you don't even exist.

Jizique · 23-09-2019 3:58pm

serfboard wrote: »

Whenever someone posts here something about a Tory moron, I first make the assumption that they represent a safe Tory seat. And, of course he does:

And Raab didn't have to challenge the sitting MP, Ian Taylor, who stood down at the 2010 election. Funny enough, Taylor was a Europhile - this was posted in 2009:

And after that was written, John Gummer also stood down as an MP in 2010.

Constituency voted remain - wealthy city types who enjoy their ski and summer hols, kids at uni etc

Joe_ Public · 23-09-2019 4:05pm

Dont think anyone could argue this has been a good weekend for Jeremy Corbyn, some of his brexit stance is beginning to appear pigheaded now, rather than brave and rational as it needs to be. Stubborn personality, bad advice, maybe both. How much long term damage it does remains to be seen.

I would argue two things in relation to labour leader, though. Firstly, all his colleagues and rivals arguing for a second referendum with a remain position never, as far as i am aware, state clearly how that referendum would be framed. How would they go about it? What precisely are the yes/no options on any ballot paper? I heard Tom Watson restating his position on this this morning, but he didn't state nor was asked what the terms of that second vote would be. The only people i've heard actually addressing this point is the labour leadership and a few of his close colleagues. Not saying anyone has to like what they're advancing and maybe it's naive and unworkable anyway, but at least they are trying to address it. I give them a bit of credit for that. The Lib Dems, quite cleverly you'd have to say, just ran away from it.

Secondly, i dont personally see how any significant blame attaches to Corbyn for the leave vote. I mean, 65% of labour voters opted for remain which looks about right to me. Maybe people think that's in spite of him, maybe so, but i dont know how much higher people think that should have been. I've heard it said that corbyn then couldn't wait to have A50 invoked, but it was never his decision anyway and the reality is if he had dithered on it, Theresa May would very likely have gone to the country and campaigned on Labour "disrespecting the will of the people". Whatever his own personal preference, he was caught in a bind on that one.

reslfj · 23-09-2019 4:46pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

... Yet again, Corbyn was watery at best. His lack of commitment was a decisive factor in Leave's win.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

Lars

Akrasia · 23-09-2019 5:03pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

I've seen this statement from No.10 being replied to on Twitter in a number of different contexts, but the shocking thing is the statement itself. Official No.10 spokespeople are now using this type of language? 'Remainiacs'?

https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1175802705891274753

Maybe he was just referring to these guys?

But in seriousness, this wasn't a no 10 spokesperson, it was a 'source in Number 10' which is different. The attitude is still worrying but the exact wording is unlikely something that would be in an official statement from the office of the prime minister.

Akrasia · 23-09-2019 5:15pm

reslfj wrote: »

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

Lars

Seeing as we're quoting smart people, here's one from Hannah Arendt

“In an ever-changing, incomprehensible world the masses had reached the point where they would, at the same time, believe everything and nothing, think that everything was possible and that nothing was true. ... Mass propaganda discovered that its audience was ready at all times to believe the worst, no matter how absurd, and did not particularly object to being deceived because it held every statement to be a lie anyhow. The totalitarian mass leaders based their propaganda on the correct psychological assumption that, under such conditions, one could make people believe the most fantastic statements one day, and trust that if the next day they were given irrefutable proof of their falsehood, they would take refuge in cynicism; instead of deserting the leaders who had lied to them, they would protest that they had known all along that the statement was a lie and would admire the leaders for their superior tactical cleverness.”
― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism

Hannah Arendt was a Jew who lived through the rise of the Nazis and she saw with her own eyes how people she knew and loved were turned from ordinary civilised people into suppors of the NAZI party who either supported or turned a blind eye to the Holocaust

Watching Brexit happen in excruciatingly slow motion, the campaigns of mass disinformation and the willingness of the political leaders stand in front of the people and tell them that it's not raining as the streets are filling up with flood water. Arendt knew that people don't set out to be bad, they don't choose to be evil, but there is a banality of evil. People make little choices, to lie a little bit, or to omit a little bit of information here and there, and these choices transform the landscape so that the difference between the truth and the lie is irrelevant, and people become conditioned to accept everything their opponents say to be false, and everything their leader says to be true.

J Mysterio · 23-09-2019 5:27pm

https://twitter.com/eucopresident/status/1176170596872400901

GM228 · 23-09-2019 5:29pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

https://twitter.com/eucopresident/status/1176170596872400901

And according to Barnier apparently:-

https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1176169105780617218?s=19

Itssoeasy · 23-09-2019 5:31pm

Is there a good reason why Keir Starmer isn’t the Labour Party leader ?

Joe_ Public · 23-09-2019 5:33pm

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Is there a good reason why Keir Starmer isn’t the Labour Party leader ?

Probably the fact he's only been an mp just over 4 years is probably a reasonably good reason i'd say. But definitely a leading candidate next time round, probably not really tight with either left or right of party which might stand him in good stead.

GM228 · 23-09-2019 5:34pm

Perhaps a second referendum...

https://twitter.com/elashton/status/1176171218724151296?s=19

SeaBreezes · 23-09-2019 5:40pm

The Brexit Party Roadshow...

https://www.thejournal.ie/richard-tice-leo-varadkar-hijacked-backstop-4819756-Sep2019/

Speaking to TheJournal.ie at a Brexit Party conference event in Newport, chairman and MEP Richard Tice said that “too many of the UK politicians have used the backstop issue, the Irish border issue, basically as a way of making it all so complicated and difficult”.

Heaven forbid there was a second referendum, and if the result was Remain. Then people’s trust in democracy will disappear forever in this country.”

From the man who's democratically elected parliament is currently not functioning, to ensure no deal Brexit..

Entertaining with the theatrics but infuriating at the dismissive analogys..

J Mysterio · 23-09-2019 5:47pm

https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1176174122310754305

"leadership".

Honestly, **** Corbyn.

Joe_ Public · 23-09-2019 5:50pm

Reports of the leaders demise were obviously premature again. The grip Corbyn has on his partys membership is truly extraordinary. Find it really fascinating, can never be underestimated.

Quin_Dub · 23-09-2019 5:53pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Reports of the leaders demise were obviously premature again. The grip Corbyn has on his partys membership is truly extraordinary. Find it really fascinating, can never be underestimated.

Both the main parties in the UK are beholden to a small group of extremist "Party members" that aren't really representative of the country at large..

That's how they've ended up with Incompetents on one side and Unelectables on the other.

J Mysterio · 23-09-2019 5:54pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Reports of the leaders demise were obviously premature again. The grip Corbyn has on his partys membership is truly extraordinary. Find it really fascinating, can never be underestimated.

Labour don't have a position on Brexit!!!! Whatever happens will be grand!!!

Shower of absolute wasters. Abdicating responsibility. For shame.

CelticRambler · 23-09-2019 5:56pm

Akrasia wrote: »

But in seriousness, this wasn't a no 10 spokesperson, it was a 'source in Number 10' which is different. The attitude is still worrying but the exact wording is unlikely something that would be in an official statement from the office of the prime minister.

All part of the insidious effect of social media on modern politics and government. On the one hand, you have smartphone warriors leveraging these platforms to turn isolated examples of (perceived) injustice into fully fledged national and international campaigns that force their way into the chambers of government, regardless of what other business has to be dealt with by members of parliament. And on the other, you have those same members of parliament and their backroom teams using those same platforms to disseminate news and fake news, facts and alternative facts, information and disinformation - all the while distancing themselves from whatever was said or leaked on the grounds that they didn't say it, or if they did, it was taken out of context ...

Trump is the perfect, extreme, example of this, and we're seeing a lot of the Trumpian (should that read Bannonist?) tactics being put to work in the UK. As it happens, for all that we complain about the indoctrination of the British, it's nothing compared to what goes on in the States, and arguably there is a level of intelligent resistance in the UK that has prevented the Johnson-Cummings machine from following Trump's lead. Most likely, we'll know before Christmas whether that resistance is sufficient to permanently hobble any future attempt to distort the democratic process in this way. Maybe the Yanks will even learn a lesson or two from the Brits!

Joe_ Public · 23-09-2019 5:59pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Both the main parties in the UK are beholden to a small group of extremist "Party members" that aren't really representative of the country at large..

That's how they've ended up with Incompetents on one side and Unelectables on the other.

Labour has a membership of some 500,000 and i'm fairly confident they're not all extremists, even the ones signed up to the so-called cult of Jeremy Corbyn. Just an interesting phenomenon to me - labour membership supposedly overwhelmingly remain, yet when it came to it, loyalty to Corbyn took precedence. Maybe they're all brainwashed in some way, but i doubt it.

Joe_ Public · 23-09-2019 6:01pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

Labour don't have a position on Brexit!!!! Whatever happens will be grand!!!

Shower of absolute wasters. Abdicating responsibility. For shame.

I mean, fair enough, i can understand people not liking it or being critical. That's perfectly reasonable. But to say they dont have a brexit policy is just not factual, or maybe "a people's vote under any circumstances" is confusing for a lot of people. Seems fairly clear to me anyway.

J Mysterio · 23-09-2019 6:06pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I mean, fair enough, i can understand people not liking it or being critical. That's perfectly reasonable. But to say they dont have a brexit policy is just not factual, or maybe "a people's vote under any circumstances" is confusing for a lot of people. Seems fairly clear to me anyway.

Its about the future of the county. Its all at stake, but they are too cowardly to take a position for the sake of a few votes, which might be saved.

They have all the information on how damaging Brexit will be, of any type. This is a failure to lead. They are a disgrace.

Joe_ Public · 23-09-2019 6:08pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

Its about the future of the county. Its all at stake, but they are too cowardly to take a position for the sake of a few votes, which might be saved.

They have all the information on how damaging Brexit will be, of any type. This is a failure to lead. They are a disgrace.

Do you mean they should be a revoke party like the lib dems?

J Mysterio · 23-09-2019 6:14pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Do you mean they should be a revoke party like the lib dems?

I mean they should have the guts to take a damn position on the biggest issue to face the UK since WWII.

Joe_ Public · 23-09-2019 6:22pm

Leave aside Corbyns own internal wranglings on the brexit issue for one moment.

I can kind of see the dilemma he must be facing. Not just about potentially abandoning an indeterminate proportion of labour voters in adopting one position or the other, but in the fact that everybody else can unblinkingly declare a remain position without any further explanation while he, as opposition leader, is the one who might - big might possibly - have to put it into action.

So let's say he declares unequivocally for remain as folk want, then becomes pm and has to go to Brussels to renegotiate a deal - the deal they need to put on the ballot paper for a second vote - on the understanding he's not going to be backing it anyway. What on earth are EU officials going to make of that? At least if he stays neutral or pretends to insist he wants a good deal - maybe he doesn't have to pretend - the EU might feel the whole process is worthwhile. Otherwise, it all just seems farcical to me. As i said earlier, everybody calling for a second referendum never seems to grapple with that dilemma, but it's one that has to be solved for the process to work without further division.

J Mysterio · 23-09-2019 6:28pm

More smoke and mirrors bollocks.

Corbyn goes on about the need for certainty and clarity and then refuses to take a position on the #1 issue of our day. It's unimaginably cowardly. He is hugely dishonest.

Why cant he say what he believes in and argue for that? Because he doesnt think he can take people with him?

You could count English politicians with integrity on the fingers of your hands.

megatron989 · 23-09-2019 6:30pm

All the above labor battering to me seems to be dancing around the simple fact that as opposition party, they should oppose the government. They don't. Hence the feeling that somethings not right with the options people are being given in any election. Your opposition party doesn't oppose. Imo.

otnomart · 23-09-2019 6:34pm

VinLieger wrote: »

Don't forget the added burden placed on the NHS of that many pensioners suddenly arriving home.

Also the beautiful irony will be that many likely voted for brexit yet when they return they wont be eligible for the NHS as you need to be a resident for 6 months'.

Quick question:
does the end of Health coverage applies also to British pensioners and students living in Ireland ?

This article states this "Also invalidated by a crash out would be the S1 reciprocal healthcare scheme used by an estimated 180,000 pensioners who paid their taxes in the UK but decided to retire elsewhere in the bloc, apart from Ireland where existing arrangements would continue."

What are the existing arrangements ?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/23/health-cover-for-retired-britons-in-eu-to-last-six-months-in-no-deal-brexit

Joe_ Public · 23-09-2019 6:35pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

More smoke and mirrors bollocks.

Corbyn goes on about the need for certainty and clarity and then refuses to take a position on the #1 issue of our day. It's unimaginably cowardly. He is hugely dishonest.

Why cant he say what he believes in and argue for that? Because he doesnt think he can take people with him?

You could count English politicians with integrity on the fingers of your hands.

I'm certainly not defending everything Corbyn does or has done, lot of mistakes made this weekend for one and that voting process at the end today was a little bit suspect. But i just tend to see his side a bit on things here, while others are driven almost demented with anger and frustration. Thats politics, i guess. I just wonder, though, if there's an overwhelming desire for a second referendum, how then do people think it should go? I heard tom watson say earlier that they should be having a referendum before an election. Fine, i see the sense in that, but he doesnt say how that referendum will be secured. Maybe there's a way, but i'd like him or others to tell us how they figure it can be done.

J Mysterio · 23-09-2019 6:37pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Maybe there's a way, but i'd like him or others to tell us how they figure it can be done.

That would require having an opinion.

This Labour party want it all to blow up on the Tories so they can pick up the pieces and rebuild. Well, they will be left with a pile of ashes.

woohoo!!! · 23-09-2019 6:39pm

I'd say that as the months and years have dragged on that Barnier and his team must be wondering what they did to deserve to deal with such mendacious liars, charlatans and numbskulls.

otnomart · 23-09-2019 6:40pm

Enzokk wrote: »

So essentially it comes down to how the UK will treat Spanish citizens post Brexit, that will determine how their citizens are treated in Spain.

I kinda saw that coming.

There are Countries where there are a lot of British Expats such as Spain, Italy, Malta, Cyprus and France, and they would have more leverage than others that attract no immigration - such as Poland for example.

Joe_ Public · 23-09-2019 6:41pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

That would require having an opinion.

This Labour party want it all to blow up on the Tories so they can pick up the pieces and rebuild. Well, they will be left with a pile of ashes.

Watson has his opinion, contrary to labour leadership, he believes they should target having a referendum before any GE. It's how he proposes they get to that point that is my contention.

J Mysterio · 23-09-2019 6:43pm

https://twitter.com/WatchmanSociety/status/1176181972378542081

"Democracy"

J Mysterio · 23-09-2019 7:04pm

https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1176181212823474183

Headshot · 23-09-2019 7:20pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

https://twitter.com/WatchmanSociety/status/1176181972378542081

"Democracy"

Yup I was watching i live and just couldnt believe my eyes. Formby really backing her man Corbyn and screwing over the party members.

I would suspect there will be more MP's leaving the labour party and going to the Lib Dems

Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Comments