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Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Quin_Dub

This is the eleventh incarnation of our Brexit discussion thread,

Same warnings etc still apply:

As we are approaching the critical end of March October 2019 period, please bear the following in mind before posting:
Insults directed at popular figures are not acceptable in this forum
Please do not post memes, videos or comedy links here
Please do not be uncivil to other posters
Please use the report function to alert the mods when necessary

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Akrasia

J Mysterio wrote: »

I've seen this statement from No.10 being replied to on Twitter in a number of different contexts, but the shocking thing is the statement itself. Official No.10 spokespeople are now using this type of language? 'Remainiacs'?

https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1175802705891274753

Maybe he was just referring to these guys?

But in seriousness, this wasn't a no 10 spokesperson, it was a 'source in Number 10' which is different. The attitude is still worrying but the exact wording is unlikely something that would be in an official statement from the office of the prime minister.

Akrasia

reslfj wrote: »

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

Lars

Seeing as we're quoting smart people, here's one from Hannah Arendt

“In an ever-changing, incomprehensible world the masses had reached the point where they would, at the same time, believe everything and nothing, think that everything was possible and that nothing was true. ... Mass propaganda discovered that its audience was ready at all times to believe the worst, no matter how absurd, and did not particularly object to being deceived because it held every statement to be a lie anyhow. The totalitarian mass leaders based their propaganda on the correct psychological assumption that, under such conditions, one could make people believe the most fantastic statements one day, and trust that if the next day they were given irrefutable proof of their falsehood, they would take refuge in cynicism; instead of deserting the leaders who had lied to them, they would protest that they had known all along that the statement was a lie and would admire the leaders for their superior tactical cleverness.”
― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism

Hannah Arendt was a Jew who lived through the rise of the Nazis and she saw with her own eyes how people she knew and loved were turned from ordinary civilised people into suppors of the NAZI party who either supported or turned a blind eye to the Holocaust

Watching Brexit happen in excruciatingly slow motion, the campaigns of mass disinformation and the willingness of the political leaders stand in front of the people and tell them that it's not raining as the streets are filling up with flood water. Arendt knew that people don't set out to be bad, they don't choose to be evil, but there is a banality of evil. People make little choices, to lie a little bit, or to omit a little bit of information here and there, and these choices transform the landscape so that the difference between the truth and the lie is irrelevant, and people become conditioned to accept everything their opponents say to be false, and everything their leader says to be true.

J Mysterio

https://twitter.com/eucopresident/status/1176170596872400901

GM228

J Mysterio wrote: »

https://twitter.com/eucopresident/status/1176170596872400901

And according to Barnier apparently:-

https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1176169105780617218?s=19

Itssoeasy

Is there a good reason why Keir Starmer isn’t the Labour Party leader ?

Joe_ Public

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Is there a good reason why Keir Starmer isn’t the Labour Party leader ?

Probably the fact he's only been an mp just over 4 years is probably a reasonably good reason i'd say. But definitely a leading candidate next time round, probably not really tight with either left or right of party which might stand him in good stead.

GM228

Perhaps a second referendum...

https://twitter.com/elashton/status/1176171218724151296?s=19

SeaBreezes

The Brexit Party Roadshow...

https://www.thejournal.ie/richard-tice-leo-varadkar-hijacked-backstop-4819756-Sep2019/

Speaking to TheJournal.ie at a Brexit Party conference event in Newport, chairman and MEP Richard Tice said that “too many of the UK politicians have used the backstop issue, the Irish border issue, basically as a way of making it all so complicated and difficult”.

Heaven forbid there was a second referendum, and if the result was Remain. Then people’s trust in democracy will disappear forever in this country.”

From the man who's democratically elected parliament is currently not functioning, to ensure no deal Brexit..

Entertaining with the theatrics but infuriating at the dismissive analogys..

J Mysterio

https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1176174122310754305

"leadership".

Honestly, **** Corbyn.

Joe_ Public

Reports of the leaders demise were obviously premature again. The grip Corbyn has on his partys membership is truly extraordinary. Find it really fascinating, can never be underestimated.

Quin_Dub

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Reports of the leaders demise were obviously premature again. The grip Corbyn has on his partys membership is truly extraordinary. Find it really fascinating, can never be underestimated.

Both the main parties in the UK are beholden to a small group of extremist "Party members" that aren't really representative of the country at large..

That's how they've ended up with Incompetents on one side and Unelectables on the other.

J Mysterio

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Reports of the leaders demise were obviously premature again. The grip Corbyn has on his partys membership is truly extraordinary. Find it really fascinating, can never be underestimated.

Labour don't have a position on Brexit!!!! Whatever happens will be grand!!!

Shower of absolute wasters. Abdicating responsibility. For shame.

CelticRambler

Akrasia wrote: »

But in seriousness, this wasn't a no 10 spokesperson, it was a 'source in Number 10' which is different. The attitude is still worrying but the exact wording is unlikely something that would be in an official statement from the office of the prime minister.

All part of the insidious effect of social media on modern politics and government. On the one hand, you have smartphone warriors leveraging these platforms to turn isolated examples of (perceived) injustice into fully fledged national and international campaigns that force their way into the chambers of government, regardless of what other business has to be dealt with by members of parliament. And on the other, you have those same members of parliament and their backroom teams using those same platforms to disseminate news and fake news, facts and alternative facts, information and disinformation - all the while distancing themselves from whatever was said or leaked on the grounds that they didn't say it, or if they did, it was taken out of context ...

Trump is the perfect, extreme, example of this, and we're seeing a lot of the Trumpian (should that read Bannonist?) tactics being put to work in the UK. As it happens, for all that we complain about the indoctrination of the British, it's nothing compared to what goes on in the States, and arguably there is a level of intelligent resistance in the UK that has prevented the Johnson-Cummings machine from following Trump's lead. Most likely, we'll know before Christmas whether that resistance is sufficient to permanently hobble any future attempt to distort the democratic process in this way. Maybe the Yanks will even learn a lesson or two from the Brits!

Joe_ Public

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Both the main parties in the UK are beholden to a small group of extremist "Party members" that aren't really representative of the country at large..

That's how they've ended up with Incompetents on one side and Unelectables on the other.

Labour has a membership of some 500,000 and i'm fairly confident they're not all extremists, even the ones signed up to the so-called cult of Jeremy Corbyn. Just an interesting phenomenon to me - labour membership supposedly overwhelmingly remain, yet when it came to it, loyalty to Corbyn took precedence. Maybe they're all brainwashed in some way, but i doubt it.

Joe_ Public

J Mysterio wrote: »

Labour don't have a position on Brexit!!!! Whatever happens will be grand!!!

Shower of absolute wasters. Abdicating responsibility. For shame.

I mean, fair enough, i can understand people not liking it or being critical. That's perfectly reasonable. But to say they dont have a brexit policy is just not factual, or maybe "a people's vote under any circumstances" is confusing for a lot of people. Seems fairly clear to me anyway.

J Mysterio

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I mean, fair enough, i can understand people not liking it or being critical. That's perfectly reasonable. But to say they dont have a brexit policy is just not factual, or maybe "a people's vote under any circumstances" is confusing for a lot of people. Seems fairly clear to me anyway.

Its about the future of the county. Its all at stake, but they are too cowardly to take a position for the sake of a few votes, which might be saved.

They have all the information on how damaging Brexit will be, of any type. This is a failure to lead. They are a disgrace.

Joe_ Public

J Mysterio wrote: »

Its about the future of the county. Its all at stake, but they are too cowardly to take a position for the sake of a few votes, which might be saved.

They have all the information on how damaging Brexit will be, of any type. This is a failure to lead. They are a disgrace.

Do you mean they should be a revoke party like the lib dems?

J Mysterio

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Do you mean they should be a revoke party like the lib dems?

I mean they should have the guts to take a damn position on the biggest issue to face the UK since WWII.

Joe_ Public

Leave aside Corbyns own internal wranglings on the brexit issue for one moment.

I can kind of see the dilemma he must be facing. Not just about potentially abandoning an indeterminate proportion of labour voters in adopting one position or the other, but in the fact that everybody else can unblinkingly declare a remain position without any further explanation while he, as opposition leader, is the one who might - big might possibly - have to put it into action.

So let's say he declares unequivocally for remain as folk want, then becomes pm and has to go to Brussels to renegotiate a deal - the deal they need to put on the ballot paper for a second vote - on the understanding he's not going to be backing it anyway. What on earth are EU officials going to make of that? At least if he stays neutral or pretends to insist he wants a good deal - maybe he doesn't have to pretend - the EU might feel the whole process is worthwhile. Otherwise, it all just seems farcical to me. As i said earlier, everybody calling for a second referendum never seems to grapple with that dilemma, but it's one that has to be solved for the process to work without further division.

J Mysterio

More smoke and mirrors bollocks.

Corbyn goes on about the need for certainty and clarity and then refuses to take a position on the #1 issue of our day. It's unimaginably cowardly. He is hugely dishonest.

Why cant he say what he believes in and argue for that? Because he doesnt think he can take people with him?

You could count English politicians with integrity on the fingers of your hands.

megatron989

All the above labor battering to me seems to be dancing around the simple fact that as opposition party, they should oppose the government. They don't. Hence the feeling that somethings not right with the options people are being given in any election. Your opposition party doesn't oppose. Imo.

otnomart

VinLieger wrote: »

Don't forget the added burden placed on the NHS of that many pensioners suddenly arriving home.

Also the beautiful irony will be that many likely voted for brexit yet when they return they wont be eligible for the NHS as you need to be a resident for 6 months'.

Quick question:
does the end of Health coverage applies also to British pensioners and students living in Ireland ?

This article states this "Also invalidated by a crash out would be the S1 reciprocal healthcare scheme used by an estimated 180,000 pensioners who paid their taxes in the UK but decided to retire elsewhere in the bloc, apart from Ireland where existing arrangements would continue."

What are the existing arrangements ?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/23/health-cover-for-retired-britons-in-eu-to-last-six-months-in-no-deal-brexit

Joe_ Public

J Mysterio wrote: »

More smoke and mirrors bollocks.

Corbyn goes on about the need for certainty and clarity and then refuses to take a position on the #1 issue of our day. It's unimaginably cowardly. He is hugely dishonest.

Why cant he say what he believes in and argue for that? Because he doesnt think he can take people with him?

You could count English politicians with integrity on the fingers of your hands.

I'm certainly not defending everything Corbyn does or has done, lot of mistakes made this weekend for one and that voting process at the end today was a little bit suspect. But i just tend to see his side a bit on things here, while others are driven almost demented with anger and frustration. Thats politics, i guess. I just wonder, though, if there's an overwhelming desire for a second referendum, how then do people think it should go? I heard tom watson say earlier that they should be having a referendum before an election. Fine, i see the sense in that, but he doesnt say how that referendum will be secured. Maybe there's a way, but i'd like him or others to tell us how they figure it can be done.

J Mysterio

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Maybe there's a way, but i'd like him or others to tell us how they figure it can be done.

That would require having an opinion.

This Labour party want it all to blow up on the Tories so they can pick up the pieces and rebuild. Well, they will be left with a pile of ashes.

woohoo!!!

I'd say that as the months and years have dragged on that Barnier and his team must be wondering what they did to deserve to deal with such mendacious liars, charlatans and numbskulls.

otnomart

Enzokk wrote: »

So essentially it comes down to how the UK will treat Spanish citizens post Brexit, that will determine how their citizens are treated in Spain.

I kinda saw that coming.

There are Countries where there are a lot of British Expats such as Spain, Italy, Malta, Cyprus and France, and they would have more leverage than others that attract no immigration - such as Poland for example.

Joe_ Public

J Mysterio wrote: »

That would require having an opinion.

This Labour party want it all to blow up on the Tories so they can pick up the pieces and rebuild. Well, they will be left with a pile of ashes.

Watson has his opinion, contrary to labour leadership, he believes they should target having a referendum before any GE. It's how he proposes they get to that point that is my contention.

J Mysterio

https://twitter.com/WatchmanSociety/status/1176181972378542081

"Democracy"

J Mysterio

https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1176181212823474183

Headshot

J Mysterio wrote: »

https://twitter.com/WatchmanSociety/status/1176181972378542081

"Democracy"

Yup I was watching i live and just couldnt believe my eyes. Formby really backing her man Corbyn and screwing over the party members.

I would suspect there will be more MP's leaving the labour party and going to the Lib Dems