Masters 2020

DelBoy Trotter · 16-01-2020 11:15pm

Higgins has come to life all of a sudden

BobCobb · 16-01-2020 11:18pm

From missing left right and centre to highest break of the tournament... 140 for JH

Joe_ Public · 16-01-2020 11:19pm

Yep, life in this match yet. Wouldnt be shocked to see higgins go on a march from here.

AllForIt · 16-01-2020 11:21pm

What's going on with all these flys and wasps? It's January!

cadaliac · 16-01-2020 11:25pm

BobCobb wrote: »

From missing left right and centre to highest break of the tournament... 140 for JH

Complete capitulation, like an on and off switch

DelBoy Trotter · 16-01-2020 11:27pm

Higgins really should have won the frame at that visit. If he had, I’d say it would have really rattled Carter

cadaliac · 16-01-2020 11:29pm

DelBoy Trotter wrote: »

Higgins really should have won the frame at that visit. If he had, I’d say it would have really rattled Carter

Can see carter folding now. Spring and purpose in JHs step and body language

DelBoy Trotter · 16-01-2020 11:38pm

Very good response from Carter so far in this frame

DelBoy Trotter · 16-01-2020 11:39pm

DelBoy Trotter wrote: »

Very good response from Carter so far in this frame

Jinxed him!

BobCobb · 16-01-2020 11:44pm

It looks like it could get messy again! Or not..two good long pots from Ali

Joe_ Public · 16-01-2020 11:46pm

Bizarre match really. This is almost a rerun of the fifth frame.

DelBoy Trotter · 16-01-2020 11:59pm

Bizarre from Carter there. I didn’t think Carter hit it in real time, and the replay confirmed that

BobCobb · 17-01-2020 12:07am

AC - I did hit it ... JH - Hit this!

DelBoy Trotter · 17-01-2020 12:09am

Higgins not impressed with the mess up with the score

DelBoy Trotter · 17-01-2020 12:10am

Carter looks to have lost the head a bit

cadaliac · 17-01-2020 12:26am

AC should finish the match here

Arthur Daley · 17-01-2020 12:29am

With the exception of one frame Higgins has been particularly dire.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 17-01-2020 10:29am

Very odd situation in last night's match. Carter appeared to miss the yellow and referee Desislava Bozhilova called foul. Carter said no, I hit it, and she just took his word for it. But the slow-motion replay seemed to confirm her initial call of foul. Surely she should have reviewed the video, just as Leo Scullion did recently during Mark Allen's first-round match against Andy Hicks at the Scottish Open? Or just stuck to her guns if she was sure it was a foul.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 17-01-2020 10:32am

The other two quarterfinals are today...

1 pm

Stephen Maguire vs David Gilbert

7 pm

Kyren Wilson vs Stuart Bingham

tanko · 17-01-2020 10:54am

Richard Embarrassed Guppy wrote: »

Very odd situation in last night's match. Carter appeared to miss the yellow and referee Desislava Bozhilova called foul. Carter said no, I hit it, and she just took his word for it. But the slow-motion replay seemed to confirm her initial call of foul. Surely she should have reviewed the video, just as Leo Scullion did recently during Mark Allen's first-round match against Andy Hicks at the Scottish Open? Or just stuck to her guns if she was sure it was a foul.

Hopeless refereeing there, it was obvious he didn't hit it. Blatant cheating by Carter, he really is a horrible character.

Joe_ Public · 17-01-2020 10:57am

Richard Embarrassed Guppy wrote: »

Very odd situation in last night's match. Carter appeared to miss the yellow and referee Desislava Bozhilova called foul. Carter said no, I hit it, and she just took his word for it. But the slow-motion replay seemed to confirm her initial call of foul. Surely she should have reviewed the video, just as Leo Scullion did recently during Mark Allen's first-round match against Andy Hicks at the Scottish Open? Or just stuck to her guns if she was sure it was a foul.

Very pertinent point. I wondered at the time of the Allen thing whether scullion was going on some new directive or simply working off his own initiative. If the former then it would seem last nights ref didnt receive the memo. That kind of inconsistency is what tends to frustrate people most. If the replay option is there, no excuse not to use it imo.

_feedback_ · 17-01-2020 11:04am

I had to call it quits as it was getting late, but the score for the foul was initially awarded to John Higgins, and then a few minutes later it was removed. Did they award him the points again or what happened?

Inconsistency is the right word for it when it comes to the refs..

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 17-01-2020 11:07am

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Very pertinent point. I wondered at the time of the Allen thing whether scullion was going on some new directive or simply working off his own initiative. If the former then it would seem last nights ref didnt receive the memo. That kind of inconsistency is what tends to frustrate people most. If the replay option is there, no excuse not to use it imo.

I believe she should have stuck with her initial decision that he missed the ball. Alternatively, she and the marker could have reviewed the video footage, per the Scullion precedent, and confirmed for Carter that he did indeed miss it.

But in this case, she simply let the player overrule her. That misunderstands the relationship in snooker between player and referee — the referee's decision is final regardless of what the player thinks.

I'm not accusing Carter of cheating — in reality, he was 12 feet away from the yellow and possibly believed that he did hit it. But Bozhilova should have required some kind of evidence to reverse her decision other than just Carter's perception.

Tom Mann Centuria · 17-01-2020 11:10am

The ref should have been stronger, but it really is so rare for players not to call themselves, and own up to something, I imagine the ref just took the player at his word, which they often do. Inexcusable from Carter, cheating pure and simple, if he's not entirely sure if he hit it he keeps his mouth shut. It'll be interesting to see what reception he gets next game. Muted at best would be my guess.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 17-01-2020 11:10am

_feedback_ wrote: »

I had to call it quits as it was getting late, but the score for the foul was initially awarded to John Higgins, and then a few minutes later it was removed. Did they award him the points again or what happened?

Higgins was on 18 points at the time. Bozhilova called foul, the marker increased Higgins's score to 22, and then she reversed her decision on the basis of Carter's say-so. A few minutes later, Higgins's score went back down to 18 again. So the official verdict is that no foul happened and no foul points were awarded.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 17-01-2020 11:16am

Video of the incident here. Carter plays the shot around 1:15 in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpw0EUyLyPM

Joe_ Public · 17-01-2020 11:19am

Richard Embarrassed Guppy wrote: »

I believe she should have stuck with her initial decision that he missed the ball. Alternatively, she and the marker could have reviewed the video footage, per the Scullion precedent, and confirmed for Carter that he did indeed miss it.

But in this case, she simply let the player overrule her. That misunderstands the relationship in snooker between player and referee — the referee's decision is final regardless of what the player thinks.

I'm not accusing Carter of cheating — in reality, he was 12 feet away from the yellow and possibly believed that he did hit it. But Bozhilova should have required some kind of evidence to reverse her decision other than just Carter's perception.

Of course, she did capitulate far too easily and luckily for her, Higgins didnt make more of it. Video would have sorted it in 30 seconds, its really that simple.

Carter probably was convinced he saw yellow move, impossible to know. But i think its all too easy to go down route of calling him a cheat because he's not a very pleasant chap. Remember ronnie not calling a clear foul on himself at a critical point of a match a couple of years back and being given benefit of doubt because, well, he's ronnie.

Arthur Daley · 17-01-2020 11:33am

Was half watching this as it was such a boring match and the Steve Davis commentary style was in lullabye mode at this point
A little after the point where the video above stopped JV posed the question if a replay was available while the camera was on the markers face and the marker shook his head in response. The marker is listening in to the commentary from the guys in the box behind him and does get to see the tv coverage which shows the replay there and then but unlike the Scullion incident the marker decided not to act here.

Chalk McHugh · 17-01-2020 11:35am

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Of course, she did capitulate far too easily and luckily for her, Higgins didnt make more of it. Video would have sorted it in 30 seconds, its really that simple.

Carter probably was convinced he saw yellow move, impossible to know. But i think its all too easy to go down route of calling him a cheat because he's not a very pleasant chap. Remember ronnie not calling a clear foul on himself at a critical point of a match a couple of years back and being given benefit of doubt because, well, he's ronnie.

I didn't give Ronnie the benefit of the doubt on that one. I saw it live on t v and noticed it straight away. There is no chance that Ronnie didn't feel,see or hear that rest moving the red. I'm a Ronnie fan but i'm not blinded by loyalty and it was the most blatant cheating i've seen in a long time on a snooker table. Of course Ronnie acted all surprised when asked about it post match but pundits were afraid imo to call it as it was and very few Ronnie fans would say anything negative about him. He cheated 100% imo.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 17-01-2020 11:43am

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Was half watching this as it was such a boring match and the Steve Davis commentary style was in lullabye mode at this point
A little after the point where the video above stopped JV posed the question if a replay was available while the camera was on the markers face and the marker shook his head in response. The marker is listening in to the commentary from the guys in the box behind him and does get to see the tv coverage which shows the replay there and then but unlike the Scullion incident the marker decided not to act here.

Well, that's inexcusable. If he knew the replay showed no contact between the cue ball and the yellow, he should at least have brought it to the ref's attention.

Joe_ Public · 17-01-2020 12:22pm

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Was half watching this as it was such a boring match and the Steve Davis commentary style was in lullabye mode at this point
A little after the point where the video above stopped JV posed the question if a replay was available while the camera was on the markers face and the marker shook his head in response. The marker is listening in to the commentary from the guys in the box behind him and does get to see the tv coverage which shows the replay there and then but unlike the Scullion incident the marker decided not to act here.

This seems to be the issue to me. Do any of us here know what the guidelines or conventions are in relation to these things? Neither referee nor marker yesterday seemed to think it was their place to use the technology to make the ruling while in the allen-hicks case they did. I blame the wpbsa for this, the scullion thing should have raised a flag that they needed to issue a directive on this. All referees should be on the same page but clearly they aren't.

Joe_ Public · 17-01-2020 12:28pm

Chalk McHugh wrote: »

I didn't give Ronnie the benefit of the doubt on that one. I saw it live on t v and noticed it straight away. There is no chance that Ronnie didn't feel,see or hear that rest moving the red. I'm a Ronnie fan but i'm not blinded by loyalty and it was the most blatant cheating i've seen in a long time on a snooker table. Of course Ronnie acted all surprised when asked about it post match but pundits were afraid imo to call it as it was and very few Ronnie fans would say anything negative about him. He cheated 100% imo.

Definitely, ronnies post match interview that night was like a comical pitch for a snooker raspberry. But my memory is that lots did give him benefit of doubt. Not everybody, obviously.

To me its the same as last night. We can have our opinion but ultimately only the player knows what was going through his head. Maybe carter knew he didnt hit yellow, but it would be a strange thing to risk your reputation like that for the sake of 4 points. Its possible but i doubt it sufficiently to be willing to give him benefit of doubt.

Chalk McHugh · 17-01-2020 12:43pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Definitely, ronnies post match interview that night was like a comical pitch for a snooker raspberry. But my memory is that lots did give him benefit of doubt. Not everybody, obviously.

To me its the same as last night. We can have our opinion but ultimately only the player knows what was going through his head. Maybe carter knew he didnt hit yellow, but it would be a strange thing to risk your reputation like that for the sake of 4 points. Its possible but i doubt it sufficiently to be willing to give him benefit of doubt.

Yea fair point. I didn't see the Carter match so can't comment on it. But you're right about risking his reputation for four points would be ridiculous.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 17-01-2020 12:53pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

This seems to be the issue to me. Do any of us here know what the guidelines or conventions are in relation to these things? Neither referee nor marker yesterday seemed to think it was their place to use the technology to make the ruling while in the allen-hicks case they did. I blame the wpbsa for this, the scullion thing should have raised a flag that they needed to issue a directive on this. All referees should be on the same page but clearly they aren't.

The rules clearly state that: "If the referee has failed to notice any incident, they may at their discretion take the evidence of the marker or other officials or spectators best placed for the observation or, if available, they may view a camera/video recording of the incident to assist their decision."

I think it's clear that Bozhilova messed up here. If she was unsure whether Carter hit the yellow, she had leeway to consult the marker, other spectators, and video evidence before calling a foul.

In this case, though, she did call a foul, and then allowed herself to be overruled by Carter himself. She should not have reversed her decision without consulting the marker or the video.

The Nal · 17-01-2020 12:53pm

Very odd one. He sort of asked Higgins who said "I don't know".

I don't think he cheated. He needs his eyes tested though.

Joe_ Public · 17-01-2020 1:10pm

Richard Embarrassed Guppy wrote: »

The rules clearly state that: "If the referee has failed to notice any incident, they may at their discretion take the evidence of the marker or other officials or spectators best placed for the observation or, if available, they may view a camera/video recording of the incident to assist their decision."

I think it's clear that Bozhilova messed up here. If she was unsure whether Carter hit the yellow, she had leeway to consult the marker, other spectators, and video evidence before calling a foul.

In this case, though, she did call a foul, and then allowed herself to be overruled by Carter himself. She should not have reversed her decision without consulting the marker or the video.

Absolutely correct. I think thats my point though, question needs to be asked why didnt she consult video. Did it not just occur to her or is she even aware of the rule? Thats what i think they should nail down. Maybe it will take a major controversy in a final before they do. Just seems a pretty basic thing to me anyway.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 17-01-2020 1:17pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Absolutely correct. I think thats my point though, question needs to be asked why didnt she consult video. Did it not just occur to her or is she even aware of the rule? Thats what i think they should nail down. Maybe it will take a major controversy in a final before they do. Just seems a pretty basic thing to me anyway.

Agreed entirely. I think this should be clarified to all referees.

Another issue is that she remained standing behind the top right corner pocket while the cue ball was traveling slowly towards the left-hand side of the yellow. She wasn't in line with the shot, and she didn't walk down the table as the cue ball was in motion, as Jan Verhaas often does, to get a better look. If she had positioned herself better to get a better view of the cueball and yellow, she might have been more sure of her decision. Inexperience showing here, tbh.

Joe_ Public · 17-01-2020 1:22pm

Richard Embarrassed Guppy wrote: »

Agreed entirely. I think this should be clarified to all referees.

Another issue is that she remained standing behind the top right corner pocket while the cue ball was traveling slowly towards the left-hand side of the yellow. She wasn't in line with the shot, and she didn't walk down the table as the cue ball was in motion, as Jan Verhaas often does, to get a better look. If she had positioned herself better to get a better view of the cueball and yellow, she might have been more sure of her decision. Inexperience showing here, tbh.

Yeah, i wouldnt want to be too hard on her, but she's certainly no jan verhaas anyway! By nature you might only get one contentious incident at most per match and you will be judged on how you deal with it.

Joe_ Public · 17-01-2020 1:26pm

One other interesting thing to note i think. In the mark allen situation it was the marker who brought the foul to the referees attention, after the shot was played. Whereas last night, according to Arthur's account above, the marker was shaking his head at virgos commentary, seemingly indicating there was nothing he could do. That doesnt seem quite right to me.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 17-01-2020 1:28pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

One other interesting thing to note i think. In the mark allen situation it was the marker who brought the foul to the referees attention, after the shot was played. Whereas last night, according to Arthur's account above, the marker was shaking his head at virgos commentary, seemingly indicating there was nothing he could do. That doesnt seem quite right to me.

Agreed. The rules say the marker should assist the referee in her duties. So it's wrong to indicate there was nothing he could do.

tanko · 17-01-2020 1:31pm

She's a useless referee. There was also an incident in the sixth frame where a fly went in under the pink. She tried to get it out for a while, couldn't do it and gave up. After the next shot the rolled the pink over the fly and got rid of it, laughing away while she did this. Does she think she's refereeing in a pub.
Allowing herself to be overruled by Carter when he blatantly cheated was pathetic.

DelBoy Trotter · 17-01-2020 1:34pm

tanko wrote: »

She's a useless referee. There was also an incident in the sixth frame where a fly went in under the pink. She tried to get it out for a while, couldn't do it and gave up. After the next shot the rolled the pink over the fly and got rid of it, laughing away while she did this. Does she think she's refereeing in a pub.
Allowing herself to be overruled by Carter when he blatantly cheated was pathetic.

To be fair, Higgins told her to leave the fly where it was. The fly was under the pink which was beside a red. Higgins told her to leave it until he potted the red, then she rolled the pink over it to kill it and removed it

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 17-01-2020 2:14pm

I wouldn't call her useless, but I think her comparative inexperience has shown up a few times this week.

Gilbert and Maguire on now. Gilbert at the table in the first frame.

Chalk McHugh · 17-01-2020 2:18pm

I like her as a referee. Not a bad looking lass either. More easy on the eye than Len Ganley anyway.

Come on Gilbert this is your chance for a Triple Crown. Like to see him win it.

Chalk McHugh · 17-01-2020 2:23pm

Gilbert opens up with a beautiful 144. Great to watch.

Joe_ Public · 17-01-2020 2:24pm

Impressive from dave. He's the player on the up here. Bunged a few quid on him for the worlds last night as i think he might be a fair bit shorter by the end of the week.

waynescales1 · 17-01-2020 2:31pm

That was some 144. Every ball centre of the pocket, not once out of position.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 17-01-2020 2:40pm

Maguire looking cleanshaven and determined himself today.

Chalk McHugh · 17-01-2020 2:49pm

Not a fan of Maguire. Him and Wilson are the only two players i dont like watching. I see Maguire still wearing runners. Colin Murray was slagging him the other day saying hes exaggerating the bad foot so he doesn't have to walk up to the BBC and Eurosport studios. Plus the only player not wearing a tie or bow. The angry faces and death stares he pulls are classless.

Arthur Daley · 17-01-2020 2:50pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

One other interesting thing to note i think. In the mark allen situation it was the marker who brought the foul to the referees attention, after the shot was played. Whereas last night, according to Arthur's account above, the marker was shaking his head at virgos commentary, seemingly indicating there was nothing he could do. That doesnt seem quite right to me.

To be fair play moved on very quickly. Higgins was at the table on his next shot in a few seconds. I think the comment from JV and the marker shaking his head at it in response was a few moments after play had resumed. So the opportunity to stop play had passed and in fairness to the marker he may only have seen replays subsequent to play resuming.

Masters 2020

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