Last of the Summer Wine

Swashbuckler · 08-02-2021 12:46am

Murph_D wrote: »

You did say that, and a fair point, although I don't think my hill effort was up to scratch based on what has followed!

Motivation isn't too bad, just a bit of physical weariness. Not helped by terrible sleeping this week, even worse than normal. I was expecting sleep to improve with 'Dry Jan/Feb' but hasn't worked out that way yet, four weeks in..

Detox! Haha. Had my first blowout since December last night and the mother of all hangovers today so it's parked again until Easter Sunday...

Hopefully it passes. You're knowledgeable enough at this stage to know that riding out the dips is key to progressing. You got out seven days in a week that you weren't feeling it. Fair play!

Laineyfrecks · 08-02-2021 10:47am

I'd agree, the hills may have taken more out of you than you actually think!
The last 2 weeks have been awful for me too with sleep, I'm not the best sleeper anyway but no matter how tired I am or feel it's taking me a ridiculous amout of time to fall asleep. I hope it sorts itself out for you!

Well done on getting out 7 days, not easy when you're feeling weary:)

Murph_D · 10-02-2021 10:04pm

JD5k Week 4/12

A good few A/R contributors have mentioned the lockdown blues in recent posts, which prompted me to consider my own state of mind in the current conditions. I think I’m coping reasonably well - being a natural introvert probably helps. Things are hectic enough at home though, and it is tough on the boys. The elder lad especially is feeling the absence of social interaction. Workwise, I had an option to defer taking up my latest position and I’ve done that, which means I won’t start til September. I’m lucky to be able to do this - one of the advantages of being close to retirement age! Still plenty to do - have been doing a bit of decorating the past couple of weeks. I’m not great, but at least I’m slow. :pac:

Meanwhile, into week 4 of this 5k-oriented block. I really don’t enjoy 5k training. Reading AMK’s log reminded me of this indisputable fact. Maybe I should take a leaf out of his book and just do marathon training instead. But for now, I’ll persist. Maybe it will turn at some point.

Mon 8 Feb

8k easy with some strides.

Considered a rest day to ease out some of the aches and pains and the give the hamstring a rest. But it started to snow so I headed out into the flurries instead. A pleasant enough plod around Drumcondra and Glasnevin, with a few strides towards the end, remembered just in time.

Tue 9 Feb

Speed session on the schedule but postponed in favour of a rest day instead, as the conditions didn’t look great during the window of opportunity. Plus I could do with a day off.

Wed 10 Feb

Speed: 6 x 800 (400 jog recovery)

There were a few spits of graupel (word of the week - in honour of Jerry Kiernan, a notable logophile) coming down when I set out after my decorating shift. I wondered would the conditions be OK to do the session but by the time I'd jogged the few kilometres down to the port the conditions were OK. Just a chill wind from the East. I made for Terminal 10, a new customs facility that the road hauliers were all giving out about on the radio this week. It takes up a whole block that's about 650 metres around. Decent tarmac paths on three sides - the other is concrete, unless you brave the road, which I didn’t as there were loads of container trucks around. These were supposed to be I (interval) pace, which JD says I should be doing at about 3:18 per rep (which is 4:07/k, or 6:47/mi). I decided to run them by feel and see what kind of numbers would result.

Splits:
3:31
3:23
3:25
3:30
3:30
3:26

So considerably slower than what was prescribed. I was trying to hit a sustainable pace, and I certainly succeeded! Some of the variation was due to wind, with some reps having two stretches into the stiff enough breeze. Jogged all the recoveries (very slowly). I’m not unhappy with this, as I was trying to be in control and think of form rather than crushing it. HRR peaked at 89-91% in the second half, suggesting there’s more to give alright. I’m struggling to give these sessions the full treatment, maybe partly due to some nervousness about the hamstring, but probably more to do with general lack of motivation during these solo sessions in strange environments. If yaboya was around he’d be accusing me of getting out the cigar.

I did feel strong during this, a change from recent runs. Part of this was undoubtedly thanks to a rare excellent sleep last night. I also broke out the old Zoom Flys, as I hate all the shoes in the normal rotation at the moment, which are mostly Pegasus 36 and Saucony Ride. The Zoom Flys are closing in on 1,000 kms and definitely past their prime but they felt great today. I’ve put my name down in Run Logic for a pair of Saucony Endorphin Speed, which everyone seems to be wearing at the moment. Hopefully they’ll be in stock before too long.

This week: 22k (13 m)
This month: 93 (58)
This year: 425 (264)

ThebitterLemon · 10-02-2021 10:09pm

Dropping to marathon training...

You quitting our challenge?

Just wait till I get those flybabies, sub 19 here I come

When restrictions lifted can you decorate our place that’s another thing I’ve failed at!

TbL

shotgunmcos · 10-02-2021 10:34pm

So much of you post rang a bell.

The Lockdown- my eldest (16) really feeling it. WFH really busy and pressure + school work, feeding and minding my younglings (4) and (6). Just have to try not to be too hard on ourselves and do things that calm us or give us energy. A book, stones, Netflix... whatever...

800s and 89-91% HRR. I did 800s too and maxed at 92% HRR. I wouldn't shoot for much more than that. Any idea how many if the 21 work minutes you spent in LT zone?

The 5k block will serve you when you launch into another marathon plan. You will enjoy the slightly slower but longer tempos. Kinda like moving from the speed phase of the Hansons plan to the 'strength phase.

1,000km out of a pair of shoes??!!!! What do you weigh?
Just one run in the Endorphin Speeds but definitely fun to run in.

Murph_D · 10-02-2021 10:36pm

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

Dropping to marathon training...

You quitting our challenge?

Just wait till I get those flybabies, sub 19 here I come

When restrictions lifted can you decorate our place that’s another thing I’ve failed at!

TbL

I'm still planning to run 5k on April 11, whatever the training philosophy! And yes, I'll be wearing the magic shoes. Hopefully you won't be able to get any in time.

Is there enough paint in Connemara to decorate the TbL estate? You'd need an army for that one, not an aul lad from the shmoke.

Murph_D · 11-02-2021 12:19am

shotgunmcos wrote: »

So much of you post rang a bell.

The Lockdown- my eldest (16) really feeling it. WFH really busy and pressure + school work, feeding and minding my younglings (4) and (6). Just have to try not to be too hard on ourselves and do things that calm us or give us energy. A book, stones, Netflix... whatever...

800s and 89-91% HRR. I did 800s too and maxed at 92% HRR. I wouldn't shoot for much more than that. Any idea how many if the 21 work minutes you spent in LT zone?

The 5k block will serve you when you launch into another marathon plan. You will enjoy the slightly slower but longer tempos. Kinda like moving from the speed phase of the Hansons plan to the 'strength phase.

1,000km out of a pair of shoes??!!!! What do you weigh?
Just one run in the Endorphin Speeds but definitely fun to run in.

A little too much I'd say. My LT zone is 167-174, so pretty much all of rep two and the first half of each of the last four. So about half of the 21 mins in total. Rep 1 was Z2, possibly a malfunction - I did try to ease into it, as per some recent discussion on a couple of logs. I get you - I wouldn't be hoping for a lot over 91% but the average was a bit low. But I remember the Fitzgerald guidance, look at the peak, not the average, and from that point of view the session was firmly in zone 4 - tending towards Z5 towards the end.

I'm not hard on shoes. 144 lbs at the moment - a bit light, but I rarely get above 147. I'm 5' 11+ so BMI is around 20, which is fine. I do generally retire most shoes at 800 kms but I think I can probably get a good bit more out of some of them.

Murph_D · 12-02-2021 9:27pm

Week 4/12 cont.

Thu 11 Feb

9.8k easy @ 5:35

Left the HR monitor at home today. Easy miles around the Griffith Ave loop, extended a little to pad it out.

Fri 12 Feb

1, 2, 1 mile @ T (3 mins jog recovery)

A variation on a session from a few weeks ago. T pace a la Daniels seems to be around HM pace, so not as punishing as a Pfitzinger tempo. Jogged out to St. Anne’s, avoiding the coast as there was a wind out. It didn’t turn out to be too much of a factor during the tempo sections, more of a crosswind. Started the first T mile on the approach to the park entrance, continuing down the main avenue. The recoveries were supposed to be 2 mins, but I upped this to 3 mins. Trying to be kind to myself these days. The tougher 2-mile rep was a loop of the parkrun course. Then back up the avenue for the last one and the jog home.

Splits (Target ~7:13)

7:23
7:16
7:06
7:09

I seem to have eased into it again. But found the groove in the second half especially. It felt good - although it’s hard to contemplate that this is actually HM pace! 13.92 kms for the evening.

This week: 45k (28 m)
This month: 116 (72)
This year: 448 (279)

Murph_D · 12-02-2021 9:53pm

There was supposed to be 4x200 at the end of that session, by the way. Hadn't set the watch up and did the T miles the old fashioned way. Completely forgot about the 200s!

Laineyfrecks · 12-02-2021 9:59pm

Sure if you're not kind to yourself who will be

Murph_D · 14-02-2021 4:39pm

Week 4/12 cont.

Sat 13 Feb

12.6k @ 5:30 (63% HRR)

Picked up a pair of Endorphin Speeds in the morning. It’s my 20th pair of Sauconys since I took up running, but obviously a lot different to the Omni, Triumph and Rides (and of course the Endorphin track spikes) I’ve worn to date. Decided to test them out with a run up to the Santry Demesne and back down through Ballymun. Some strides towards the end, on Griffith Avenue. Shoes felt fine - found them a little harder underfoot than my beloved Zoom Flys, which I suppose is the closest competitor in the shoe closet. Nice pop from the nylon plate however. Looks like it will be a decent shoe, and I look forward to testing it out properly on speedier stuff. Pity about the price tag.

Sun 14 Feb

12 mile long run in the rain. A bit too soon after breakfast and I got an awful stitch a few miles in. Kind of set the tone and I didn’t enjoy the rest of the run. Good to get in to my sliver of the Phoenix Park. Was tempting to invoke the ‘part of the park = all of the park’ principle but I stuck to the radius and traipsed home through Stoneybatter and along the Canal. Passed a few prisons today. We complain about restrictions but it's good to be on the outside.

A pretty good week. 48 miles, and starting to feel like I'm getting somewhere. It's bloody tough going though.

This week: 77k (48m)
This month: 148 (92)
This year: 480 (299)

Murph_D · 14-02-2021 9:25pm

I've been looking over the last four weeks of training, wondering how well it suits the Easy / Hard Principle, and specifically the 80/20 rule of thumb.

Week|Easy|Moderate/Hard|Total
1|5h 59m (84%)|1h 6m (16%)|7h 5m
2|5h 32m (79%)|1h 26m (21%)|6h 58m
3|5h 42m (82%)|1h 13m (18%)|6h 55m
4|5h 58m (83%)|1h 13m (17%)|7h 11m

Generally 2-3 days between sessions, so plenty of recovery time. And generally fine with the 80/20 ratio.

So why is it feeling so hard, I wonder? I always find 5k sessions - and 5k programmes - difficult, but would have thought the base built up last year would make this feel a bit easier, especially at the relatively forgiving paces that the 46-47 VDOT tables are prescribing.

Time will tell, maybe.

Swashbuckler · 14-02-2021 9:35pm

It does feel like you're doing the 5k block coz you think you should be rather than wanting to do it. I think that in itself makes it mentally tough and by default, physically hard.

5k specific is tough at any time of the year but in the middle of winter, and a pandemic with no real race target in sight. It has difficult written all over it.

MY BAD · 14-02-2021 11:01pm

Doing 200,400,800s etc this time of year can be hard going especially when it's solo stuff on the roads. 5k stuff is hard on the body anytime of year. Pay attention to recovery and listen to your body is my best advice. 7 hours a week is a lot of time on your feet add in the intensity of 5k on top of that and it takes its toll. I had a quick look at your Strava and you were running 5 to 6:30 hours in the weeks before you started this plan so keep that in mind too.

shotgunmcos · 14-02-2021 11:06pm

In that table, how did you calculate %?

Murph_D · 15-02-2021 12:29am

Swashbuckler wrote: »

It does feel like you're doing the 5k block coz you think you should be rather than wanting to do it. I think that in itself makes it mentally tough and by default, physically hard.

5k specific is tough at any time of the year but in the middle of winter, and a pandemic with no real race target in sight. It has difficult written all over it.

That’s a good point about time of year. I’ve done a 5k block each of the last three years but it’s usually a little later (to culminate with the Bob Hefferman race). Longer days, warmer weather definitely helps. And of course, including club sessions, which are obviously out at the moment.

Murph_D · 15-02-2021 12:33am

MY BAD wrote: »

Doing 200,400,800s etc this time of year can be hard going especially when it's solo stuff on the roads. 5k stuff is hard on the body anytime of year. Pay attention to recovery and listen to your body is my best advice. 7 hours a week is a lot of time on your feet add in the intensity of 5k on top of that and it takes its toll. I had a quick look at your Strava and you were running 5 to 6:30 hours in the weeks before you started this plan so keep that in mind too.

I agree with all this - I think I’m OK recovery wise as my easy stuff is genuinely easy. I think I run easy/recover slower than almost everyone I know with similar race times. There were some light weeks alright before starting this but I think current mileage is sustainable and not out of step with last year, especially the second half. My sleep is probably worse at the moment as previously mentioned so that’s an issue too recovery-wise. Thanks for the insights.

Murph_D · 15-02-2021 12:38am

shotgunmcos wrote: »

In that table, how did you calculate %?

Not sure what you mean? Is there an error? Everything is easy (zone 1 or 2) except the speed/tempo sessions. I add up the time spend on these sessions (minus the warmup/cooldown, but including the time spent on recovery between intervals). % is the proportion of the weekly total.

shotgunmcos · 15-02-2021 12:15pm

Murph_D wrote: »

Not sure what you mean? Is there an error? Everything is easy (zone 1 or 2) except the speed/tempo sessions. I add up the time spend on these sessions (minus the warmup/cooldown, but including the time spent on recovery between intervals). % is the proportion of the weekly total.

Ah ok got you. That what I what I meant. The actual "work" time but I'd probably count interval recoveries in that. For example I did 8hrs50 total across running and S&C 2 weeks ago and 50min total was Z4 r above. So about 9% threshold/redzone work effort.

Swashbuckler · 15-02-2021 12:44pm

I'd be the same as Murph. I'd only count "on time". So if I have 7x3mins off 90s for a session that's 21mins of work (even though I might be still in a higher zone for a percentage of that 90s recovery).

shotgunmcos · 15-02-2021 12:56pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I'd be the same as Murph. I'd only count "on time". So if I have 7x3mins off 90s for a session that's 21mins of work (even though I might be still in a higher zone for a percentage of that 90s recovery).

While you might be in a higher zone for a percentage of the recovery, you may also be in a lower zone for a percentage of the rep. So I track the total number of minutes in Z4 and 5 of every run.

If that total is around 10% or less on a rolling week and I'm feeling fatigued, there is something else at play. Not enough sleep, not enough Z1-2 particularly after sessions, work stress etc...

Number 1 recovery is sleep. Light sleepers must be constantly on a the brink of fatigue..

Murph_D · 15-02-2021 6:59pm

I DO count ‘off’ time during a session. So e.g. 6x3 mins with 2 mins recovery I’d count as 30 mins.

Not my own thinking - it’s what Fitzgerald does in the 80/20 method.

I don’t count S&C in my totals, unless it’s replacing an easy run.

JD has his own thoughts on how much of each type of run/zone should make up the weekly total. Haven’t directly compared but I don’t think it’s much different to MF or Pfitzinger, etc.

Murph_D · 15-02-2021 9:41pm

shotgunmcos wrote: »

While you might be in a higher zone for a percentage of the recovery, you may also be in a lower zone for a percentage of the rep. So I track the total number of minutes in Z4 and 5 of every run.

If that total is around 10% or less on a rolling week and I'm feeling fatigued, there is something else at play. Not enough sleep, not enough Z1-2 particularly after sessions, work stress etc...

Number 1 recovery is sleep. Light sleepers must be constantly on a the brink of fatigue..

Well this is obviously a problem for me. But surely it's only one part of an interconnected system - hydration, nutrition, alcohol, S&C etc. We can maybe make up for deficiencies in some areas with strengths in others (not that I'm actually good with ANY of these most of the time).

But actually I don't totally agree. We are all runners, and we run. Number 1 recovery for me is running recovery at the right pace/effort. And running other stuff, tempo, speed etc, at the right effort too. I know a good few runners around my standard, who probably sleep way better than me, and possibly have better nutrition and S&C routines, but whose training paces are all wrong - so I can routinely outperform them in races.

We probably all know runners like that. And if you don't, maybe it's you!

Murph_D · 17-02-2021 7:16pm

JD5k Week 5/12

Week 5, getting bedded into Phase III with another big pair of midweek sessions. The mind can be a funny thing and you can forget some of the tough stuff you’ve done in the past. The Daniels 800m block I put in back in 2018 was very tough, but I tend to remember it in rose-tinted tones because of the positive result at the end of it. A second attempt a year later ended in tears with the hamstring strain that still hasn’t got away. I’m reluctant to even say it, but hopefully I can stay injury free. There’s a good discussion going on in ReeReeG’s log on the value of S&C, and of course whether it’s any use if you’re not doing it right. I’ll continue with my basic core routine a couple of times a week. It’s so basic that I don’t always even remember to log it. Not planning anything more radical at this time.

Mon 15 Feb

9.8k easy, 10 x strides.

An easy hour on the Griffith Ave loop, with a detour up into Courtlands, a quiet estate with a couple of good inclines, for future hill session reference. Set of 10 strides in the middle part of the run.

Tue 16 Feb

Like last week, I took the Tuesday as a rest day, postponing the session to tomorrow.

Wed 17 Feb

Speed: 5 x 1,000 (400 jog recovery)

I was in two minds about where to do this. Despite the breeze, I kind of fancied the coast, but changed my mind as it was a fine late afternoon and I was afraid the paths would be jammed. So down again to the Port, and my ‘Brexit Track’ around Terminal 10. These I-pace sessions haven’t been particularly scintillating, so I was a bit wary of the meaty 1,000 metre reps, which were supposed to be at 4:07/k (6:38/mi) pace. Would the new Endorphin Speeds rise to the occasion? The loop is about 650m so I’d have some headwind and tailwind on every rep, with some reps having a bit more of one than the other, which explains most of the variation in the splits:

4:11
4:02
4:10
4:10
4:03

I did ease into things, trying not to get into deficit too early. In the groove by lap two, and it didn’t really start to get very uncomfortable until the last two. Pleased with the strong finish.

All by feel - not so much as a glance at the watch, just listening for the beeps to start and end each rep (and hoping I would hear them against the roar of the trucks as the port was busy again today). Delighted to see the average come in at 4:07 - exactly the number requested by Mr. Daniels. :cool:

So a good start to the week.

This week: 23k (14 m)
This month: 171 (106)
This year: 503 (313)

Swashbuckler · 17-02-2021 8:43pm

All by feel - not so much as a glance at the watch

Love hearing that!

Nice session D.

Murph_D · 21-02-2021 6:47pm

Week 5 cont.

Thu 18 Feb

7.3k easy @ 5:45 (61% HRR)

A walk in the Phoenix Park, then a run home.

Fri 19 Feb

Some business in Coolmine offered an opportunity to run home from a little beyond the radius. Jumped out of the car at the top of White’s Road, just after AMK had ambled past (he didn’t hear our muffled greeting). Warmed up with a couple of miles around to the top of North Road and then started the tempo, which I wasn’t looking forward to (three miles seemed awfully long). The plan is saying 4:29/k for T pace which seems a little generous, but who am I who argue? Settled in nicely enough, the slightly downhill grade cancelled out by the headwind. I’d intended going all the way to the North Circular Road, but at the last minute veered out the Cabra Gate, in order to avoid having to do the 200s on NCR. This presented a couple of dips and climbs up to the Royal Canal, with a brief forced stop at traffic lights on the Navan Road, but I managed the pace fairly well and hit the numbers without getting into any trouble. Took a short (< 2 mins) jog recovery before starting the 200s. These were tricky enough with the amount of strollers to be avoided. Finished up at the bottom of Whitworth Road and stretched out the cooldown jog home to put in 13.3k for the afternoon.

Splits:

T (Target 7:13)
7:13
7:22
7:05

200s (Target 45)
42
44
43
44

Again, happy with this. I feel I’m getting stronger as the weeks go by, and these sessions aren’t taking as much out of me as they were a few weeks ago. HRR at the end of the tempo piece was well under control at 84%.

Sat 20 Feb

9.8k @ 5:47 (no HRM)

An easy/recovery jaunt through East Wall and the Docklands.

Sun 21 Feb

17.7k @ 5:33 (66% HRR)

11 miles easy through the South City. Bumped into two former colleagues and stopped for chats. There’s only one topic of conversation these days, isn’t there?

Week 5: 399 mins
Easy/Rec: 330 mins (83%)
Moderate/Hard: 69 mins (17%)

This week: 71k (44m)
This month: 219 (136)
This year: 551 (343)

Swashbuckler · 21-02-2021 10:46pm

You're easing into this block nicely. Great to see.

Murph_D · 25-02-2021 1:26am

JD5k Week 6/12

Week Six already. Progress seems to be being made, unless it’s just down to the shoes…

Mon 22 Feb

9.7k easy.

Over to the port again. There are supposed to be strides on the Monday run. I can’t remember if I decided not to do them or if I just forgot. That’s right, I forget if I forgot (or not).

Tue 23 Feb

No running. Tuesday seems to be becoming the regular rest day. This is kind of deliberate - because Tuesday is traditionally session day, it feels doubly daring to take it off.

Wed 24 Feb

Speed: 4 x 1,200 (3 mins jog recovery)

As this is a repeat of the Week One session, I went out to the seafront to retread the same route and get a sense of the progress that is being made, if any. Only one run, of course, so dangerous to read too much into it, but I was certainly in better shape for this than that awful experience in mid January. Legs felt nice and fresh after the day off.

Splits (target 4:57)

4:58
4:54
5:06
4:59

These look a little slow, but it was quite windy on the homeward half, and I’m trying not to be too obsessive about the numbers. HRR maxed out around 91% during the final rep - close enough! Splits on this workout are far better and more consistent than five weeks ago.

The Claw ran by in the opposite direction during rep 2, offering some encouragement and a friendly wave. Maybe that’s why it was the fastest of the four.

This week: 21k (13 m)
This month: 240 (149)
This year: 573 (356)

Murph_D · 26-02-2021 10:38pm

Week 6 cont.

Thu 25 Feb

9.7k easy @ 5:36 (66% HRR)

Griffith Ave and Glasnevin. Nothing of note, forgettable mileage ballast.

Fri 26 Feb

16.1k inc 5 x 1 mile @ T (1 min), 6 x strides

Another substantial tempo session on the schedule today. I headed over to the Wade Avenue loop, home of the Raheny Road Relays and the Winter and Summer leagues. The reasoning being it would be much quieter than the adjacent St. Anne’s Park, which was indeed pretty busy as I warmed up. I don’t often run the mile loop outside of races, so I was intrigued to notice that it is not as flat as I’ve always assumed. There was a bit of a breeze from the southwest, as usual.

Splits: (Target 7:12)
7:11
7:05
7:12
7:08
6:58
(Avg. 7:07)

I wondered would the 1 min recoveries, which I opted to walk, be enough. They were, as the splits show. Had to dodge some traffic on a couple of laps, which might make them look less consistent than they actually were. I did stride it out a bit on the last one, and why not - I’m about to enter an even more ancient age category, so might as well strike while the iron is still plugged in.

This week: 47k (29 m)
This month: 266 (165)
This year: 598 (372)

Swashbuckler · 26-02-2021 10:42pm

Saw that on Strava and first thought was I was looking forward to seeing your log update. Hell of a session D. Very impressive. Seems like you handled it pretty well although you didn't really go into much detail?

Last of the Summer Wine

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