Last of the Summer Wine

shotgunmcos

Murph_D wrote: »

Appreciate the input, and yes of course to the 'book plan' caveat. But I've no plans for a personal coach at this time.

Yes, day 1 of the programme, but I think I have the base, despite a lack of recent quality. The biggest problem with today's session, as S suggests, is probably the lack of recovery between reps. The 4800m volume would be fairly run-of-the-mill for a Tuesday club session for instance, or for any other book plan, Hanson included. That said, when doing those Hanson speed sessions last summer, I insisted on doing them at 5-10k pace. But that was with a marathon in mind, and taking the kindest interpretation of the guidelines.

So yes, as your man the Race Series MC is always saying, over and over, it's not the distance that will kill ya, it's the pace!

I'll stick with it for a bit and see what happens - with variations when it feels right, as suggested above.

Thanks for the comments, they are all valuable.

Having done those Hansons speed workouts, I can attest to kicking off with 4.8k work volume and at 5k pace. It was 12x400 though with generous 400m jog recovery. Then 600s, 800s, 1000s before the dreaded pyramid and 3x 1,600m.

Since you are a HR advocate, how about letting that guide you? Track the minutes you are banking in Z4 and Z5 and build that progressively? Just a thought

Murph_D

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Having done those Hansons speed workouts, I can attest to kicking off with 4.8k work volume and at 5k pace. It was 12x400 though with generous 400m jog recovery. Then 600s, 800s, 1000s before the dreaded pyramid and 3x 1,600m.

Since you are a HR advocate, how about letting that guide you? Track the minutes you are banking in Z4 and Z5 and build that progressively? Just a thought

Good idea re the zones. I see you’re reading Fitzgerald, and I did track easy vs moderate/hard when I used his 5k plan last year. I do intend wearing the HRM for all runs over the next months and yes, good idea to track those numbers again. Cheers.

AuldManKing

I remember some time back, doing a tempo on the acres and there being about 5 pages of Boards comments on it - as I pulled the plug on it

Good to be close to the old times.

While not wanting to add to your 4x1200 commentary..............let me add to your 4x1200 commentary.

As a Daniels advocate, jumping into phase 3 is a difficult thing to do.
The 4x1200 interval should have been preceded the previous week by 3x3mins Hard + 4x2mins Hard.
This was then preceded the previous week by 4x1m Tempo.
There was also a 7x2min workout a couple of weeks previous.

So the plan has a decent progression to it and obviously, this is lost if you just jump straight into Phase 3 - missing out on 6 weeks building speed and some speed endurance at the faster 'R' (repetition) paces.

I'm not pointing this out for Murphs benefit - he knows this I'm sure - but for anyone else looking to do the Daniels plan - its a tough one, and needs to be done right, otherwise you'll not finish it or get injured.

dtf

For me i'm finding a big difference between speed sessions, in a group, on a track on a Tuesday night and a speed session on my own, on a dark puddled, pedestrian busy footpath. For me anyway, it's just not possible to get anywhere close to the intensity of the track based sessions.

Dubh Geannain

AuldManKing wrote: »

I remember some time back, doing a tempo on the acres and there being about 5 pages of Boards comments on it - as I pulled the plug on it

Good to be close to the old times.

While not wanting to add to your 4x1200 commentary..............let me add to your 4x1200 commentary.

As a Daniels advocate, jumping into phase 3 is a difficult thing to do.
The 4x1200 interval should have been preceded the previous week by 3x3mins Hard + 4x2mins Hard.
This was then preceded the previous week by 4x1m Tempo.
There was also a 7x2min workout a couple of weeks previous.

So the plan has a decent progression to it and obviously, this is lost if you just jump straight into Phase 3 - missing out on 6 weeks building speed and some speed endurance at the faster 'R' (repetition) paces.

I'm not pointing this out for Murphs benefit - he knows this I'm sure - but for anyone else looking to do the Daniels plan - its a tough one, and needs to be done right, otherwise you'll not finish it or get injured.

I just jumped onto an 800 plan at phase 3 this week . But I'm known to be patchy in my consistency so no doubt I won't stick to it to the letter.

That 1200 session does sound tough to start out. Surprised that the recovery is only 60%. For comparison the 800 session I did yesterday had 66% recovery. It was 5 intervals at between my 3-5k pace. 3 mins on 2 mins off. Covered around 4500m on the hard reps. But, I'd done my own interval session the week before 20x(45on/30off) at 3k pace (covered 4600m). I'd say it definitely helped prepare me for what I found to be a tougher session.

Murph_D

I hear ye... All of ye, plus a couple more in my ear offline.

I've jumped into phase III Daniels previously (800m workouts), but only after 12 weeks of 5k work, which is a lot different to my current situation, following three months of mostly easy jogging following the virtual DCM. I've done a few workouts in recent weeks, but on a fairly random basis. I've been trying to convince myself that I've built up at least some of the way to this over the past fortnight but maybe I'm fooling myself.

I'm possibly going to rethink the 12 weeks schedule. I want to stick to Daniels but maybe take 2-3 weeks from phase II to start, then 3-4 from phase III. Possibly three from each is better as they both have a (sort of) three-week cycle, repeated with some variation. Then the full phase IV.

I'm rereading the Daniels Running Formula book. There's a lot of information for customising, although some of it is quite between the lines. So it's a book plan, but it doesn't necessarily limit you to the printed schedules, and in fact provides plenty of alternative sessions if you study it carefully enough to understand the goal of those sessions.

Or of course I could bite the bullet and do an additional six weeks.

Decisions...

Murph_D

AuldManKing wrote: »

I remember some time back, doing a tempo on the acres and there being about 5 pages of Boards comments on it - as I pulled the plug on it

...

If you can link me to that part of your log, or remind me of the approx dates, I’d like to have a look at that discussion, assuming there’s nothing about socks in it.

TIA.

Swashbuckler

dtf wrote: »

For me i'm finding a big difference between speed sessions, in a group, on a track on a Tuesday night and a speed session on my own, on a dark puddled, pedestrian busy footpath. For me anyway, it's just not possible to get anywhere close to the intensity of the track based sessions.

I've heard this said before and it's always something I've struggled to understand. Maybe it's coz I don't do group sessions or maybe it's the specific approach of my coach/my own mentality. Very few sessions are prescribed to be balls to the wall. Mostly sessions are designed to have you running in somewhat of a controlled manner but reasonably high effort. I can't wrap my head around how running on your own (in a controlled session) is that much more difficult to running with other people.

OOnegative

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I've heard this said before and it's always something I've struggled to understand. Maybe it's coz I don't do group sessions or maybe it's the specific approach of my coach/my own mentality. Very few sessions are prescribed to be balls to the wall. Mostly sessions are designed to have you running in somewhat of a controlled manner but reasonably high effort. I can't wrap my head around how running on your own (in a controlled session) is that much more difficult to running with other people.

+1 to this. Another Lone Ranger & have no issues getting myself up to pace on sessions. Like you to, it’s never eyeballs out effort wise but very uncomfortably hard.

ThebitterLemon

Murph_D wrote: »

Appreciate the input, and yes of course to the 'book plan' caveat. But I've no plans for a personal coach at this time.

Yes, day 1 of the programme, but I think I have the base, despite a lack of recent quality. The biggest problem with today's session, as S suggests, is probably the lack of recovery between reps. The 4800m volume would be fairly run-of-the-mill for a Tuesday club session for instance, or for any other book plan, Hanson included. That said, when doing those Hanson speed sessions last summer, I insisted on doing them at 5-10k pace. But that was with a marathon in mind, and taking the kindest interpretation of the guidelines.

So yes, as your man the Race Series MC is always saying, over and over, it's not the distance that will kill ya, it's the pace!

I'll stick with it for a bit and see what happens - with variations when it feels right, as suggested above.

Thanks for the comments, they are all valuable.

Disagree, you should have run mile splits and a lot harder

I’ll be keeping close tabs on here!!!

TbL

Murph_D

dtf wrote: »

For me i'm finding a big difference between speed sessions, in a group, on a track on a Tuesday night and a speed session on my own, on a dark puddled, pedestrian busy footpath. For me anyway, it's just not possible to get anywhere close to the intensity of the track based sessions.

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I've heard this said before and it's always something I've struggled to understand. Maybe it's coz I don't do group sessions or maybe it's the specific approach of my coach/my own mentality. Very few sessions are prescribed to be balls to the wall. Mostly sessions are designed to have you running in somewhat of a controlled manner but reasonably high effort. I can't wrap my head around how running on your own (in a controlled session) is that much more difficult to running with other people.

OOnegative wrote: »

+1 to this. Another Lone Ranger & have no issues getting myself up to pace on sessions. Like you to, it’s never eyeballs out effort wise but very uncomfortably hard.

It works both ways I think. Group sessions can be psychologically easier because the fact that others are doing it makes it seem less hard. Plus if you are on a running track they are often physically easier, especially longer reps, and easier to pace. But being in the wrong group can be counterproductive if you’re overly competitive with your club mates, and end up racing rather than training. That sucks a lot of people in. If Tuesday’s session had been in a group setting, I’d have dropped down to the next group, like I used to sometimes do when running with dtf in big group sessions in Irishtown.

MY BAD

You can't compare doing group sessions correctly then going solo. I've trained with groups where it hasn't been done right and it can be very off putting. The main thing is having a good coach over looking the session who will have everyone working together. I was spoiled before covid. A very small bit of competition can be a good thing but it needs to be controlled and not get out of hand. There was a lot of young lads in my crew so that needed to be watched as they get quite competitive by nature. Having a good crew where you see very progress is hard to beat. Mixing people with different abilities for sessions is a good way to improve the team mentally. I might have 400s where I'm put in with the faster lads doing tempo miles, we're both running the 400s at 75 seconds. They aren't going to go racing because they know they've to pace me. Then the following week might be pacing some of the guys slower than me. You have a responsibility to the guys you are pacing. We all worked like a team to bring each other on. Also having a good coach there over looking a session is priceless, looking at your form, having a wee word during recoveries, and able to switch it up if you are having a bad day at the track.

Murph_D

MY BAD wrote: »

You can't compare doing group sessions correctly then going solo. I've trained with groups where it hasn't been done right and it can be very off putting. The main thing is having a good coach over looking the session who will have everyone working together. I was spoiled before covid. A very small bit of competition can be a good thing but it needs to be controlled and not get out of hand. There was a lot of young lads in my crew so that needed to be watched as they get quite competitive by nature. Having a good crew where you see very progress is hard to beat. Mixing people with different abilities for sessions is a good way to improve the team mentally. I might have 400s where I'm put in with the faster lads doing tempo miles, we're both running the 400s at 75 seconds. They aren't going to go racing because they know they've to pace me. Then the following week might be pacing some of the guys slower than me. You have a responsibility to the guys you are pacing. We all worked like a team to bring each other on. Also having a good coach there over looking a session is priceless, looking at your form, having a wee word during recoveries, and able to switch it up if you are having a bad day at the track.

That sounds like a fantastic setup. Not one that you see that often for ordinary middle of the pack members in my experience of a couple of big clubs. I don't know how many club tempo sessions on the track I've done where I'd end up doing almost the whole thing on my own. The faster runners pacing the improvers is a terrific idea.

Swashbuckler

Was about to say the same thing - id like to know how common that is. My little experience of group club running wasn't that!

AuldManKing

Murph_D wrote: »

If you can link me to that part of your log, or remind me of the approx dates, I’d like to have a look at that discussion, assuming there’s nothing about socks in it.

TIA.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056825673&page=36

oh the shame! And the memories. (2013)

MY BAD

As I said I was spoiled. Getting coached by someone who is so highly regarded and in general such a great guy who was so committed to his athletes is rare. Out there on the track every week no matter the weather. On top of that getting the chance to train with runners who are at such a high level was very beneficial and I learnt so from their attitude and approach. To top the whole thing off was the facilities. But it shows when things are done right everything just clicks into place.

Murph_D

To be fair to the clubs, for many it's a question of not enough coaches for the kind of individual attention we all feel we deserve!

MY BAD

Haha I know! Its extra commitment but its up to us club members to grab the bull by the horns. A lot of the times we expect this and that without giving back to the club in return. I know from experience of coaching C25k and the other senior groups in our club. It takes a lot of work and commitment. I've nothing but respect for all the coaches volunteering in athletics here. We are miles behind compared to the GAA .

Swashbuckler

AuldManKing wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056825673&page=36

oh the shame! And the memories. (2013)

"170 miles - 2nd highest mileage ever"

You've come a long way King!

Murph_D

AuldManKing wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056825673&page=36

oh the shame! And the memories. (2013)

Interesting discussion. I’m amazed no one took you up on your own point that maybe that session was too soon after the Irish Runner 5 Mile, although maybe you hadn’t raced that fully, or at least all of it.

Also interesting that the collective boards knowledge on HR training and on LT seemed much less than it is now. Just goes to show you the value of the forum - although L was already lamenting a decline in knowledgeable training talk. Career Move seemed to know her stuff though!

I would have been far too green to offer any insight myself back then. But that abandoned session could have been for any of all the reasons mentioned alright! It also points to an earlier obsession with socks than I realised.

Laineyfrecks

Murph_D wrote: »

I would have been far too green to offer any insight myself back then. But that abandoned session could have been for any of all the reasons mentioned alright! It also points to an earlier obsession with socks than I realised.

Haha I spotted this also :pac:

Swashbuckler

Some serious quality posts in that log. Wow.

AuldManKing

And lets leave it there - we don't need any analysis of my session from 7.5 years ago!!

Orange socks - brought back memories.

Murph_D

JD5k Week 1 of 12 cont.

Wed 20 Jan

10.6k easy @ 5:45 (73% HRR)

Routine run on the seafront.

Thu 21 Jan

9.6k easy/recovery @ 5:50 (73% HRR)

Over to Dublin Port, where the Brexit construction continues. Stopped at the end of Tolka Quay Road to admire the view of the coast, traipsing through a sea of plastic bottles and other rubbish to access the viewpoint. Worth it.

Fri 22 Jan

Speed/Tempo: 4x200, 2x1m, 4x200

I’ve rethought my bastardised Daniels 5k schedule and will introduce a few weeks of Phase II sessions, starting with this speed/tempo combo. The usual warmup before starting the workout on the roadside footpath just path the Baths. It’s been ages since I’ve done any 200s (target 47 secs) and so, although I didn’t try to time them, I could sense they were too fast. Took the 200m recoveries very handy, walking the first half. Not a great way to begin, with a couple of tempo miles to go, but settled into the 7:09/mi target pace quite nicely on the first one, with the benefit of a very gentle tailwind. One minute recovery then on the Causeway, before turning for home. The second T mile was a bit tougher, with the slight headwind and starting to tire. And then the final set, a good bit more pedestrian than the first. A lively way to finish a session, but 200s are short enough that you usually feel you can knock them out. Bit of a watch screwup here, so I had to estimate a couple of the splits later from the trace.

Splits:
43 44 44 45
7:09
7:13
49 47 47 49

Happy with that. A much better experience than Tuesday, with no drama. About halfway through this I passed a guy who once paced a 3:30 Cork marathon group I was in. Well, half of it anyway. We met again at the DCM pacers dinner later that year. I sometimes see him out and about and usually wave but he hasn’t a clue who I am.

This week: 45k (28 m)
This year: 230 (143)

Murph_D

JD 5k Wk 1/12 (cont.)

Sat 23 Jan

Easy hour: 11.1k @ 5:45

A circuit of the Howth Road, St. Anne’s and the coast. Park and seafront very busy again. Bumped into the injured FBOT out walking the dog and stopped for a brief chat - too cold for a proper chinwag. Was careful to wear sunglasses today with the low sun in the sky. I’ve been bothered by bright lights and glare the past while, and really should be wearing the shades more often. All the time, probably. Must get some proper ones.

Sun 24 Jan

Long run 20.3k @ 5:26 (80% HRR)

Fairly brisk LR by my standards, towards the faster end of E pace. JD gives me an E range of 5:12-5:51/km, which is about 10 secs faster than the Hanson equivalent. I decided to explore the southern limits of the 5k range. This took me around the pleasant redbrick suburbs of Sandymount, Ballsbridge, Ranelagh and Rathmines, then the grittier surroundings of The Liberties, Smithfield, and Dorset St, before returning to the home turf of Drumcondra and Fairview. A few snow flurries added to the fun. Passed two lads in a currach at Ringsend, which reminded me of our Connemara boardsie.



A good week, despite the rocky start. I feel I can kick on properly from here.

This week: 76k (47m),
This month/year: 261 (162)

ThebitterLemon

Murph_D wrote: »

JD 5k Wk 1/12 (cont.)

Sat 23 Jan

Easy hour: 11.1k @ 5:45

A circuit of the Howth Road, St. Anne’s and the coast. Park and seafront very busy again. Bumped into the injured FBOT out walking the dog and stopped for a brief chat - too cold for a proper chinwag. Was careful to wear sunglasses today with the low sun in the sky. I’ve been bothered by bright lights and glare the past while, and really should be wearing the shades more often. All the time, probably. Must get some proper ones.

Sun 24 Jan

Long run 20.3k @ 5:26 (80% HRR)

Fairly brisk LR by my standards, towards the faster end of E pace. JD gives me an E range of 5:12-5:51/km, which is about 10 secs faster than the Hanson equivalent. I decided to explore the southern limits of the 5k range. This took me around the pleasant redbrick suburbs of Sandymount, Ballsbridge, Ranelagh and Rathmines, then the grittier surroundings of The Liberties, Smithfield, and Dorset St, before returning to the home turf of Drumcondra and Fairview. A few snow flurries added to the fun. Passed two lads in a currach at Ringsend, which reminded me of our Connemara boardsie.



A good week, despite the rocky start. I feel I can kick on properly from here.

This week: 76k (47m),
This month/year: 261 (162)

They probably rowed up from Connemara.

Now they’re manly men, showing up the Pale wusses with their mechanised boats

TbL

skyblue46

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

They probably rowed up from Connemara.

Now they’re manly men, showing up the Pale wusses with their mechanised boats

TbL

Are they wearing leggings?

Murph_D

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

They probably rowed up from Connemara.

Now they’re manly men, showing up the Pale wusses with their mechanised boats

TbL

If this is the boat in question, it turns out to have a Connemara connection alright. But would never have made it to the water without the support of a few Dubs.

http://www.newsfour.ie/2015/10/edwins-currach-is-reborn-in-ringsend/

ThebitterLemon

skyblue46 wrote: »

Are they wearing leggings?

Farah slacks cut off at the knee and black wellingtons:)

TbL

Murph_D

JD5k Week 2/12

This week is mostly about settling in to the new routine. Session Tues and Fri, long run Sunday. Some Daniels weeks turn the long run into a MP session, but I’ll probably not do that unless I’m feeling really great or have skipped the midweek session in favour of it, which I doubt I will do.

Mon 25 Jan

7.7k easy/recovery.

A few easy miles, checking out some potential speedwork sites. If the tracks were open, I’d be doing the Tues sessions in Morton or Irishtown, but needs must! BG’s tip-off looks like it will do the job.

Tue 26 Jan

Speed: 5 sets 200, 200, 400 @ R pace (equal recovery)

Out before dawn to the Tolka estuary and the “Bungy Track”, which has a 600m stretch of uninterrupted, well-lit, smooth gravel path. I jogged the length of it, marking off approximate 200m sections, using manhole covers, twigs, leaves, and a plastic bag that happened to be stuck in the hedge. Not too fussy about the accuracy, just wanted a few visual markers so I could repeat sections and lap this manually, the way you would on an actual track. The stretch had a slight headwind in the return direction, and a slight up and down grade at one end, but is more or less perfect for this kind of session.

Splits (target 45, 45, 90)

45, 45, 93
44, 43, 94
43, 47, 92
45, 43, 94
44, 47, 92

What became obvious after the first set was that this session is all about the 400s, at least for me. I find the 200s eminently manageable, but struggle to maintain that effort over the longer rep. However I didn’t sweat this too much - measurement, hand timing, wind and grade will introduce small errors anyway, the thing is to feel the effort and try to run with good form, which I think I pulled off reasonably well. These targets are based on a 47 VDOT from the recent marathon effort. (Last week I misread the tables and targeted 47 secs for my 200s). Judging by the 400s, that is not an unambitious number. I experimented slightly with the pace of the 200s, trying to feel the variation and find the pace that would leave enough for the 400s. Walked the first 50m or so of each recovery. Really enjoyed this session, which went by in a flash. Thanks, G!

This week: 21k (13 m)
This year: 282 (175)