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MPs quitting Labour & Conservative parties discussion thread

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24567…31

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    #32
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,129 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    theguzman wrote: »
    Goods news to see Labour decline and degrade further. It also strengtens Teresa May's hand and increases even more the almost foregone conclusion of a Hard no-deal brexit.

    This is actually the most accurate consequence / takeaway from this move you'll get all day!


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    #33
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,662 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    LibDems are busted because, as a junior partner in a coalition government they clearly got taken advantage of.

    It's the same as here where the junior partner is always the one booted out and FF or FG remain dominant. But we are used to coalition government here.

    UK party politics can't handle the 50:50 split since 2010..the biggest majority has been 12? It couldn't process the alternative vote system. It is struggling with the fixed parliament act where now resignations have no consequence and votes of no confidence and rejections of budgets and losses on key government legislation don't matter.

    Brexit is another narrow divide but isn't split along party political lines and yet that is constantly how it is reported and debated and indeed being run/negotiated by May.


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    #34
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,011 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    devnull wrote: »
    Jeremy Corbyn's poor leadership has now resulted in the break-up of his party.

    Luciana Berger
    Gavin Shuker
    Chuka Umunna
    Ann Coffey
    Mike Gapes
    Angela Smith
    Chris Leslie

    Have all tendered their resignations and have formed their own Independent group due to Antisemitism and Brexit by the looks of things, very sad day for British politics in a way but you can hardly blame them.
    Surprised that Chuka Umunna isn't in that number. Or Joan Ryan for that matter. Will there be more resignations I wonder.


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    #35
    Enzokk
    Registered Users Posts: 5,559 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    The labour anti semitism was a load of nonsense it was part of a strategy by the labour blairites to lever under Corbyn to get him out.


    You know what I try to follow, when someone from a minority tells me there is a problem with racism/antisemitism/Islamophobia, because I am not from the minority then I cannot judge whether that is happening or not. This is because I have never been the victim of discrimination like they have so it is very difficult for me to dismiss their views. This discrimination will not be as blatant as Corbyn shouting abuse at Jewish members, but it will be noticeable to those that suffer it.


    So when Luciana Berger says the following,

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1097439273744252928

    It is imperative to take it seriously, especially as the accusations keeps happening. This is not a sleight on Labour alone. The Islamophobia displayed by the Tories are probably worse and needs to be confronted as well.


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    #36
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,129 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    dfx- wrote: »
    It's the same as here where the junior partner is always the one booted out and FF or FG remain dominant. But we are used to coalition government here.

    UK party politics can't handle the 50:50 split since 2010..the biggest majority has been 12? It couldn't process the alternative vote system. It is struggling with the fixed parliament act where now resignations have no consequence and votes of no confidence and rejections of budgets and losses on key government legislation don't matter.

    Brexit is another narrow divide but isn't split along party political lines and yet that is constantly how it is reported and debated and indeed being run/negotiated by May.

    It's a constitutional crisis. Chuka and the boys resigning the labour whip is a really minor sidetrack of a quite seminal process.


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    #37
    Enzokk
    Registered Users Posts: 5,559 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    theguzman wrote: »
    Goods news to see Labour decline and degrade further. It also strengtens Teresa May's hand and increases even more the almost foregone conclusion of a Hard no-deal brexit.

    How will it help her get no-deal Brexit? As long as Labour doesn't allow her they will all vote together against that outcome so in policy they will vote with Labour even though they are not part of the party.

    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Surprised that Chuka Umunna isn't in that number. Or Joan Ryan for that matter. Will there be more resignations I wonder.

    Third name down?;)


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    #38
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,744 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    So the net result of today's news is that the UK will have a hard left Labour party with a Tory govt for the forseeable. I hope these ex Labour MPs succeed as I suspect they would probably be pretty close to my politics in n many issues, but they will all almost certainly be voted out at the next election and their political careers will be finished.

    What impact will it have in the Lib Dems as well?


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    #39
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    So then Brexit. Breaking up businesses, families, nations (in a few years) and political parties.


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    #40
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,011 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    The breakaway MPs are referrring to themselves as 'The Independent Group'. They have a website up now.
    Our aim is to pursue policies that are evidence-based, not led by ideology, taking a long-term perspective to the challenges of the 21st century in the national interest, rather than locked in the old politics of the 20th century in the party’s interests.

    As an Independent Group we aim to recognise the value of healthy debate, show tolerance towards different opinions and seek to reach across outdated divides and build consensus to tackle Britain’s problems.

    On Brexit, firmly sitting on the fence:
    Labour now pursues policies that would weaken our national security; accepts the narratives of states hostile to our country; has failed to take a lead in addressing the challenge of Brexit and to provide a strong and coherent alternative to the Conservatives’ approach; is passive in circumstances of international humanitarian distress; is hostile to businesses large and small; and threatens to destabilise the British economy in pursuit of ideological objectives.


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    #41
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    bilston wrote: »
    So the net result of today's news is that the UK will have a hard left Labour party with a Tory govt for the forseeable. I hope these ex Labour MPs succeed as I suspect they would probably be pretty close to my politics in n many issues, but they will all almost certainly be voted out at the next election and their political careers will be finished.

    What impact will it have in the Lib Dems as well?

    The splinter groups (assuming some Tories also leave over Brexit) really should align themselves with the Lib Dems. It makes sense for NOT LAB/CON to all stand under one umbrella and set out a policy platform based on "not being a bastard"/social and economic moderation. Sounds boring but if the two big parties continue on their current trajectories middle will have appeal by the next scheduled GE (but obviously given the nature of the times there could be a snap one in a month).

    Chukka just rejecting any idea of joining the LDs


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    #42
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Jeremy Corbyn has given his usual speech, ignoring every elephant that has ever set foot in the room
    I am disappointed that these MPs have felt unable to continue to work together for the Labour policies that inspired millions at the last election and saw us increase our vote by the largest share since 1945.

    Labour won people over on a programme for the many not the few – redistributing wealth and power, taking vital resources into public ownership, investing in every region and nation, and tackling climate change.

    The Conservative government is bungling Brexit, while Labour has set out a unifying and credible alternative plan.

    When millions are facing the misery of Universal Credit, rising crime, homelessness and poverty, now more than ever is the time to bring people together to build a better future for us all.

    This is why the members have left - the same old rhetoric comes out and the issues which those who have left are swept under the carpet like they don't even exist. It's laughable.


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    #43
    CelticRambler
    Registered Users Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Chuka and the boys resigning the labour whip is a really minor sidetrack of a quite seminal process.

    They've left the party entirely and have declared themselves independents as of now.
    theguzman wrote: »
    Goods news to see Labour decline and degrade further. It also strengtens Teresa May's hand and increases even more the almost foregone conclusion of a Hard no-deal brexit.

    Regarding a No-deal Brexit, probably yes, but by not trying to set themselves up as a new party (straight away) this group of seven may well encourage a number of Tories to follow the same path. Much easier for a discontent Tory to move to a point of independence/neutrality and stand beside one of the lads/lasses from the "other side" than to cross the aisle completely.

    The numbers don't match yet, but this is very close to the Guardian mapping of how the traditional two-party system in the UK (England) has already split into four + independents.


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    #44
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,200 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    Enzokk wrote: »
    You know what I try to follow, when someone from a minority tells me there is a problem with racism/antisemitism/Islamophobia, because I am not from the minority then I cannot judge whether that is happening or not. This is because I have never been the victim of discrimination like they have so it is very difficult for me to dismiss their views. This discrimination will not be as blatant as Corbyn shouting abuse at Jewish members, but it will be noticeable to those that suffer it.


    So when Luciana Berger says the following,

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1097439273744252928

    It is imperative to take it seriously, especially as the accusations keeps happening. This is not a sleight on Labour alone. The Islamophobia displayed by the Tories are probably worse and needs to be confronted as well.

    If the organization is institutionally anti-Semitic, you could question, reasonably, why she was a member at all. It didn't become institutionally anti semetic overnight nor with the election of Corbyn.

    They've tried everything to get rid of him and it's just this is the bit of mud they've thrown that's stuck a bit.

    With Corbyn gone and replaced by a more moderate they will rejoin. By leaving however it's less likely labour will shift back and it's more likely these will be out if there is an election this year.


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    #45
    ambro25
    Registered Users Posts: 5,994 ✭✭✭ambro25


    Akrasia wrote: »
    A bunch of Labour MPs have resigned the whip, based on opposition to anti semitism. I think the number is 7

    They don't seem to care about brexit.
    Angela Smith very much does, AFAIK.

    Locally at least (met her a few times at events in/around Sheffield in 2016 and 2017 before I Brexoded), she was an outspoken critic of the first hour, and I'm hearing that she still is. And that is, notwithstanding her constituency's comfortable pro-Brexit vote, pre-GE2017, which nevertheless saw her returned to the HoC.

    I haven't been following this announced Labour splinter, but I'm wholly unsurprised at seeing her name amongst those 7 MPs. She's Labour's version of Soubry.


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    #46
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,235 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    The breakaway MPs are referrring to themselves as 'The Independent Group'. They have a website up now.



    On Brexit, firmly sitting on the fence:

    The timing of this is absolutely insane. We get it that there might be an anti semitic element in Labour, even including Corbyn himself, but we're a month away from the most important event in UK politics in 2 generations and to break away from the main opposition party and not even take a strong stance on what they want to happen regarding Brexit is gobsmacking


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    #47
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,011 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Akrasia wrote: »
    The timing of this is absolutely insane. We get it that there might be an anti semitic element in Labour, even including Corbyn himself, but we're a month away from the most important event in UK politics in 2 generations and to break away from the main opposition party and not even take a strong stance on what they want to happen regarding Brexit is gobsmacking
    Not on their website (which seems to be over-loaded now), but it seems that they do have a policy on brexit:
    Umunna says they whole-heartedly support the People’s Vote campaign. He says it’s “been like getting blood from a stone getting the Labour party to do the right thing by our constituents on this issue”.


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    #48
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    Their website is down. You'd think someone could give them a hand with something with adequate capacity.


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    #49
    Mezcita
    Registered Users Posts: 2,328 ✭✭✭Mezcita


    Response from Young Labour:

    https://twitter.com/YoungLabourUK/status/1097439224310231042?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1097439224310231042&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fpolitics%2Flive%2F2019%2Ffeb%2F18%2Fseveral-labour-mps-set-to-quit-the-party-politics-live

    Bizarre times.


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    #50
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,651 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Mezcita wrote: »
    Response from Young Labour:

    https://twitter.com/YoungLabourUK/status/1097439224310231042?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1097439224310231042&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fpolitics%2Flive%2F2019%2Ffeb%2F18%2Fseveral-labour-mps-set-to-quit-the-party-politics-live

    Bizarre times.


    Tone deaf doesnt even describe it


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    #51
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,174 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Mezcita wrote: »
    Response from Young Labour:

    https://twitter.com/YoungLabourUK/status/1097439224310231042?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1097439224310231042&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fpolitics%2Flive%2F2019%2Ffeb%2F18%2Fseveral-labour-mps-set-to-quit-the-party-politics-live

    Bizarre times.

    That sort of image could be incredibly damaging for the party. Rhetoric like "cowards" and "traitors" does not belong in a respectable party of government.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #52
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Bizarre indeed. British politics is imploding right at the moment they need most stability. This stuff could distract everyone enough to let a no deal slip through unopposed.


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    #53
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,148 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    Akrasia wrote: »
    The timing of this is absolutely insane. We get it that there might be an anti semitic element in Labour, even including Corbyn himself, but we're a month away from the most important event in UK politics in 2 generations and to break away from the main opposition party and not even take a strong stance on what they want to happen regarding Brexit is gobsmacking

    But Labour has been absolutely inept up until this point, remaining within the party would be pointless anyway.


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    #54
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,200 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    That sort of image could be incredibly damaging for the party. Rhetoric like "cowards" and "traitors" does not belong in a respectable party of government.

    Youth wings have a tendency to go off script and be a bit more extreme than the main party.

    Has happened here with FG too iirc.


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    #55
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,697 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    That sort of image could be incredibly damaging for the party. Rhetoric like "cowards" and "traitors" does not belong in a respectable party of government.

    They've been the lyrics of the Red Flag all the time, though.


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    #56
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    That sort of image could be incredibly damaging for the party. Rhetoric like "cowards" and "traitors" does not belong in a respectable party of government.

    Petty name calling is very much on trend in UK politics at the moment. It's very indicative of a political system that's lost in tribal wars.

    There's a lot to be said for PR-STV here as boring as consensus finding politics may be, it tends to lead to sane decision making.

    I'd be more worried if that were coming from the mainstream party though. Youth wings tend to attract less pragmatic points of view and also tend to be a lot more like student politics.


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    #57
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Enzokk wrote: »
    So when Luciana Berger says the following,

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1097439273744252928

    It is imperative to take it seriously, especially as the accusations keeps happening. This is not a sleight on Labour alone. The Islamophobia displayed by the Tories are probably worse and needs to be confronted as well.




    Yeah, if people keep saying something then it's probably true.



    Personal opinion: It's just blaggarding, it's the only thing they have left that sticks to Corbyn.



    Corbyns been in charge for three years, if Labour is institutionally anti-Semitic then it was going on long before his watch and these MP's didn't raise it.


    Labour does have a problem it that a lot of it's Muslim voters and members who hold values that are at odds with any Liberal Party. But these MPs did not see that as a problem any more than Corbyn did.


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    #58
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,148 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    Bambi wrote: »
    Personal opinion: It's just blaggarding, it's the only thing they have left that sticks to Corbyn.

    Are you saying it's not a real issue and they're just using it as an excuse because they can't use any other of his inadequate attributes as party leader?

    Do you not think the fact that it has been raised now but nothing seems to have been done about it a big problem?


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    #59
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,174 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    Youth wings have a tendency to go off script and be a bit more extreme than the main party.

    Has happened here with FG too iirc.

    I see your point but Momentum and the Labour Youth have significant control over the party compared to their equivalents in the UK and elsewhere.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #60
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,129 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Hurrache wrote: »
    Are you saying it's not a real issue and they're just using it as an excuse because they can't use any other of his inadequate attributes as party leader?

    Do you not think the fact that it has been raised now but nothing seems to have been done about it a big problem?

    It's not a real issue, it's never been a real issue.


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    #61
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,011 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    It seems that the website for The Independent Group has been completely overwhelmed with hits. Their Twitter account which started tweeting two hours ago has already garnered 20k followers and rising fast.


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