YouTube announces it will no longer recommend conspiracy videos

Dohnjoe · 15-04-2020 2:15pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

I have an axe to grind with Jews? I have no problem with Jews and can you find posts Where I claimed; I hated them.

You've drastically rounded down the number of Jews (only) killed during the Holocaust, which is classic Holocaust denial

You've suggested that "the Jews" purposefully inflated the figures because that's the kind of thing "they'd" do

I wouldn't say you are motivated by hate, just by an inability to sort fact from fiction, reality from imagination, and so on. And to keep this vaguely on topic, that's the type of mindset which is targeted by those who spread deliberately absurd and sometimes harmful conspiracies.

Cheerful Spring2 · 15-04-2020 2:55pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

You've drastically rounded down the number of Jews (only) killed during the Holocaust, which is classic Holocaust denial

You've suggested that "the Jews" purposefully inflated the figures because that's the kind of thing "they'd" do

I wouldn't say you are motivated by hate, just by an inability to sort fact from fiction, reality from imagination, and so on. And to keep this vaguely on topic, that's the type of mindset which is targeted by those who spread deliberately absurd and sometimes harmful conspiracies.

It is not a holocust thread and not at topic i want to be pulled back into again.

I just say this. You second line of your post is false. Since all Jews do not all agree!
You seem to have just disregarded many Israeli and Jewish scholars debate over the real numbers killed by gassing for decades. By your theory they are holocaust deniers too.
I proposed the numbers got inflated by the Soviet Union. You seemly forget again the camps were in occupied Soviet territory for 45 years.
9 million figure is based on a Jewish census from 1933. It doesn’t take into account the conditions in Europe after 1933.
A Israeli scholar proposed there was 3.5 million Jews- Left after the War in Europe. So many took upon themselves to claim 6 million Jews got killed.
Does not hold water at all and many Jewish scholars have noticed that and written books about it..
The number ignores immigration stats, it ignores everyday human illness, its ignores, WW2 conditions in Europe, especially Poland where the majority of European Jews lived. The Nazis invaded and bombed the crap out of the country in 1939. It ignores food shortages, it ignores winter conditions in Poland.

Dohnjoe · 15-04-2020 3:16pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

It is not a holocust thread and not at topic i want to be pulled back into again.

You say that yet..

I just say this. You second line of your post is false. Since all Jews do not all agree!
You seem to have just disregarded many Israeli and Jewish scholars debate over the real numbers killed by gassing for decades. By your theory they are holocaust deniers too.
I proposed the numbers got inflated by the Soviet Union. You seemly forget again the camps were in occupied Soviet territory for 45 years.
9 million figure is based on a Jewish census from 1933. It doesn’t take into account the conditions in Europe after 1933.
A Israeli scholar proposed there was 3.5 million Jews- Left after the War in Europe. So many took upon themselves to claim 6 million Jews got killed.
Does not hold water at all and many Jewish scholars have noticed that and written books about it..
The number ignores immigration stats, it ignores everyday human illness, its ignores, WW2 conditions in Europe, especially Poland where the majority of European Jews lived. The Nazis invaded and bombed the crap out of the country in 1939. It ignores food shortages, it ignores winter conditions in Poland.

Holocaust denial trope after trope

Indeed, it is off-topic. But it demonstrates how easy to is to convince certain individuals with false and out-of-context information.

nullzero · 15-04-2020 3:29pm

King Mob wrote: »

Ok. So we can agree with holocaust denial is nonsense.

But when people come across this theory, some people do not identify it as nonsense. They believe that it has merit and that it is true.

You seem to be suggesting that this is solely because they have racist attitudes towards Jewish people.
To me, that seems a bit reductionist.

How about the alternative thought that the the world is flat? Why do people come to believe this is true?

I'm not sure why you think I owe you an answer on the topics of flat earth and holocaust denial. With that said let's enter the rabbit hole...

Holocaust denial would generally be seen as something rooted in anti Jewish sentiment, there are people who also point out that other ethnicities were subject to the sharp end of the Nazi ideology, which is valid as it is rooted in fact.
To say that it is reductionist to attribute holocaust denial largely to anti Jewish sentiment is a bit of a reach as most(not all but most) holocaust deniers are dyed in the wool antisemites. It is also worthwhile to note that using the term "racist" in relation to anti Jewish sentiment is not applicable as Judaism is a religious belief and not an ethnicity.

As for flat earth believers, I really have no idea. You would be better asking a flat earther that question, I'm just not qualified or motivated to answer it.

Cheerful Spring2 · 15-04-2020 3:32pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

You say that yet..

Holocaust denial trope after trope

Indeed, it is off-topic. But it demonstrates how easy to is to convince certain individuals with false and out-of-context information.

I never claimed the Holocust story was a Jewish hoax. You seem to think any revision is unacceptable. Whatever your opinion. Finished talking about it anyway with you guys.

nullzero · 15-04-2020 3:33pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

You say that yet..

Holocaust denial trope after trope

Indeed, it is off-topic. But it demonstrates how easy to is to convince certain individuals with false and out-of-context information.

I'm not sure it's fair to attribute what he's saying to holocaust denial. It appears on the surface to be a different rationalisation of how the numbers were calculated. Whether or not 6 million Jews were gassed to death or some were left in a position where they were exposed to other factors and modes of death the responsibility would appear to still be laid at the feet of the Nazis, which is not holocaust denial at all. In point of fact some of what you're saying could be appropriated as libelous in another setting.

Cheerful Spring2 · 15-04-2020 3:37pm

nullzero wrote: »

I'm not sure it's fair to attribute what he's saying to holocaust denial. It appears on the surface to be a different rationalisation of how the numbers were calculated. Whether or not 6 million Jews were gassed to death or some were left in a position where they were exposed to other factors and modes of death the responsibility would appear to still be laid at the feet of the Nazis, which is not holocaust denial at all. In point of fact some of what you're saying could be appropriated as libelous in another setting.

Yep 1933 9.5 million Jews lived in Europe. Reality is you can only blame the Nazis for what went down later!

King Mob · 15-04-2020 3:52pm

nullzero wrote: »

Holocaust denial would generally be seen as something rooted in anti Jewish sentiment, there are people who also point out that other ethnicities were subject to the sharp end of the Nazi ideology, which is valid as it is rooted in fact.
To say that it is reductionist to attribute holocaust denial largely to anti Jewish sentiment is a bit of a reach as most(not all but most) holocaust deniers are dyed in the wool antisemites.

And yet, many holocaust deniers will insist that they are not anti jewish like Cheerful spring does.

He is a holocaust denier and believes that the numbers accepted by real historians are artificially inflated by a concerted conspiracy. And that said conspiracy planted and falsified evidence at concentration camps to support their preferred numbers.

Many Holocaust deniers claim the exact same thing.

Do you believe that his theory is nonsense? Do you believe that is "rooted in anti Jewish sentiment"?

nullzero wrote: »

As for flat earth believers, I really have no idea. You would be better asking a flat earther that question, I'm just not qualified or motivated to answer it.

This is a problem for your stance then.
The idea is clearly nonsense. Yet people believe it is true.
So not all everyone's judgement is accurate.

Dohnjoe · 15-04-2020 4:10pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

I never claimed the Holocust story was a Jewish hoax. You seem to think any revision is unacceptable. Whatever your opinion. Finished talking about it anyway with you guys.

I seem to recall that when asked whether you believed the Jews exaggerated the Holocaust, you replied with "yes".

Historians revise details all the time, that's completely different from prejudiced or ignorant people who attempt to revise history to suit their faulty views

nullzero · 15-04-2020 4:10pm

King Mob wrote: »

And yet, many holocaust deniers will insist that they are not anti jewish like Cheerful spring does.

He is a holocaust denier and believes that the numbers accepted by real historians are artificially inflated by a concerted conspiracy. And that said conspiracy planted and falsified evidence at concentration camps to support their preferred numbers.

Many Holocaust deniers claim the exact same thing.

Do you believe that his theory is nonsense? Do you believe that is "rooted in anti Jewish sentiment"?

This is a problem for your stance then.
The idea is clearly nonsense. Yet people believe it is true.
So not all everyone's judgement is accurate.

Point out where I stated that everyone's judgement was/is accurate please.

I've already addressed Cheerful springs ideas, you can read my comments on it above.

Dohnjoe · 15-04-2020 4:17pm

nullzero wrote: »

I'm not sure it's fair to attribute what he's saying to holocaust denial. It appears on the surface to be a different rationalisation of how the numbers were calculated. Whether or not 6 million Jews were gassed to death or some were left in a position where they were exposed to other factors and modes of death the responsibility would appear to still be laid at the feet of the Nazis, which is not holocaust denial at all. In point of fact some of what you're saying could be appropriated as libelous in another setting.

lol, I knew this was coming and I know where it's going.

Okay, so historical consensus on the issue is misplaced, only around 2.5 million Jews died in the Holocaust

Is the above true, or is it bull****?

Or is there a third grey option we can explore here where we play with words and semantics

nullzero · 15-04-2020 4:22pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

lol, I knew this was coming and I know where it's going.

Okay, so historical consensus on the issue is misplaced, only around 2.5 million Jews died in the Holocaust

Is the above true, or is it bull****?

Or is there a third grey option we can explore here where we play with words and semantics

It appears on the surface that the total number of Jews killed remains the same with a smaller number able to be attributed to deaths in the concentration camps.

The net result remains constant with 6 million plus Jews dead at the hands on the Nazis just with differing modes of death to what is generally assumed to be the case.

That isn't really playing with words at all, perhaps your own ability to understand things is the problem here.

To clarify, anyone stating that 2.5 million Jews dead in the holocaust is the total number of deaths is patently incorrect, but that isn't what I see being said in this case.

King Mob · 15-04-2020 4:22pm

nullzero wrote: »

Point out where I stated that everyone's judgement was/is accurate please.

Ok. So sometimes people make errors in judgement and think that things that are clearly nonsense are believable.
Why do you think this happens? Because they are deficient in some way?

nullzero wrote: »

I've already addressed Cheerful springs ideas, you can read my comments on it above.

I have. Your comments are not accurate as you aren't familiar with his claims.
His claims are not substantially different from other holocaust deniers.

At what point does "alternate" thoughts on the history of the Holocaust become full on Holocaust denial?
Personally I believe this in when someone is suggesting this is a worldwide conspiracy to falsify the numbers of people killed in the Holocaust.

Dohnjoe · 15-04-2020 4:26pm

nullzero wrote: »

The net result remains constant with 6 million plus Jews dead at the hands on the Nazis just with differing modes of death to what is generally assumed to be the case.

False, it was around 2.5 to maybe 3 million

That isn't really playing with words at all, perhaps your own ability to understand things is the problem here.

To clarify, anyone stating that 2.5 million Jews dead in the holocaust is the total number of deaths is patently incorrect, but that isn't what I see being said in this case.

A position I suspect you will shortly change.

Cheerful Spring2 · 15-04-2020 4:30pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

I seem to recall that when asked whether you believed the Jews exaggerated the Holocaust, you replied with "yes".

Historians revise details all the time, that's completely different from prejudiced or ignorant people who attempt to revise history to suit their faulty views

You always complaining i am derailing threads and here and you Kingmob are doing the same thing you accuse me of doing

You boys take is i am racist and hate Jews, we get it. Silly really when i never met a Jew in my life and have no skin in the game.
Now you trying to draw another poster into this silly disagreement about the holocust, when he never posted about it before?
People have varied opinions. For you guys, seeing people stepping outside the accepted norms, in your head, triggers something that you feel the need to attack back?
It the same on every thread from 9/ 11 to JFK to UFOs, you name it. The debunkers boys are out in force, posting endlessly why we are childish and stupid for believing the things we do.

You people have a gas lighter personality!

nullzero · 15-04-2020 4:31pm

King Mob wrote: »

Ok. So sometimes people make errors in judgement and think that things that are clearly nonsense are believable.
Why do you think this happens? Because they are deficient in some way?

I have. Your comments are not accurate as you aren't familiar with his claims.
His claims are not substantially different from other holocaust deniers.

At what point does "alternate" thoughts on the history of the Holocaust become full on Holocaust denial?
Personally I believe this in when someone is suggesting this is a worldwide conspiracy to falsify the numbers of people killed in the Holocaust.

I'm only going to take what is being said in this thread into consideration. As for comments made by others in historical threads on this forum, I don't feel it is reasonable to expect me to read through that level of content.

As for why people make errors in judgement, well humans are fallible, there's not much more you can say about that on a macro level. I you want me to psycho analyse everyone on the planet it may take me some time to receive the required training and find the time to conduct the required research to give you the answer you're looking for. Are some people deficient in some ways? Possibly, who am I to say?

Your opinion on what holocaust denial is up to you. If the net number remains the same and an accurate account of different modes of death is all that's being discussed then there isn't any harm in striving to be accurate.

nullzero · 15-04-2020 4:34pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

False, it was around 2.5 to maybe 3 million

A position I suspect you will shortly change.

From what I read he was saying 2.5 to 3 million killed in camps with the remainder made up from other modes of death. That adds up to the accepted net amount of 6 million . Perhaps Cheerful spring can clarify that for me.

FYI you have no leverage for taking a condescending tone with me, get your own house in order before you begin looking down your nose at others.

King Mob · 15-04-2020 4:39pm

nullzero wrote: »

I'm only going to take what is being said in this thread into consideration. As for comments made by others in historical threads on this forum, I don't feel it is reasonable to expect me to read through that level of content.

I'm simply stating the facts that we are aware of that you are not.

nullzero wrote: »

As for why people make errors in judgement, we'll humans are fallible, there's not much more you can say about that on a macro level.
...
Are some people deficient in some ways? Possibly, who am I to say?

But a few posts ago you were saying that in general people were capable of making their own judgements about what is and isn't nonsense.
Now you are being reluctant to make general statements?

nullzero wrote: »

Your opinion on what holocaust denial is up to you. If the net number remains the same and an accurate account of different modes of death is all that's being discussed then there isn't any harm in striving to be accurate.

And I'm just trying to clarify what you define as holocaust denial so there isn't further misunderstanding.

If say someone claims that number of deaths in the holocaust is significantly lower than the numbers suggested by most historians, does that make it holocaust denial? (Significant here meaning a difference of 1-2 million)

Cheerful Spring2 · 15-04-2020 4:40pm

nullzero wrote: »

From what I read he was saying 2.5 to 3 million killed in camps with the remainder made up from other modes of death. That adds up to the accepted net amount of 6 million . Perhaps Cheerful spring can clarify that for me.

FYI you have no leverage for taking a condescending tone with me, get your own house in order before you begin looking down your nose at others.

I clarified most of my opinions in the post 153 earlier!
They debunkers boys want to drag you down to their level. I have no interest.
They have their viewpoint. Arguing mine pointless here.

nullzero · 15-04-2020 4:46pm

King Mob wrote: »

I'm simply stating the facts that we are aware of that you are not.

But a few posts ago you were saying that in general people were capable of making their own judgements about what is and isn't nonsense.
Now you are being reluctant to make general statements?

And I'm just trying to clarify what you define as holocaust denial so there isn't further misunderstanding.

If say someone claims that number of deaths in the holocaust is significantly lower than the numbers suggested by most historians, does that make it holocaust denial? (Significant here meaning a difference of 1-2 million)

I am not reluctant to make general statements. Show me where I have reneged on anything I have previously said please. A previous request I made in a similar vein was answered in a less than concise manner ending in you veering away from the question. Yet again you show an lack of willingness to debate properly.

I have already stated clearly my stance on holocaust denial. Perhaps you should have another look over what I said. The answers have already been given should you care to read carefully enough to see them.

As for these facts you are aware of that I am not, that seems to be a point of contention with the poster in question. As I am not motivated to trawl through your previous exchanges I'll just leave it as a point of some conjecture between two opposing sides in an off topic discussion that has now run its course.

Dohnjoe · 15-04-2020 4:51pm

nullzero wrote: »

From what I read he was saying 2.5 to 3 million killed in camps with the remainder made up from other modes of death. That adds up to the accepted net amount of 6 million . Perhaps Cheerful spring can clarify that for me.

Indeed.

FYI you have no leverage for taking a condescending tone with me, get your own house in order before you begin looking down your nose at others.

Maybe, or maybe you "adapt" your views depending on who you are debating against or with.

nullzero · 15-04-2020 4:53pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Indeed.

Maybe, or maybe you "adapt" your views depending on who you are debating against or with.

To clarify, 6 million Jews died in the holocaust. Striving to accurately describe the mode of death for all of them is acceptable. Saying a few million less died in total isn't.

I haven't adapted my views on anything, cite one instance in which I have.
Perhaps you adapt your level of cognition depending on your mood.

King Mob · 15-04-2020 4:57pm

nullzero wrote: »

I am not reluctant to make general statements. Show me where I have reneged on anything I have previously said please. A previous request I made in a similar vein was answered in a less than concise manner ending in you veering away from the question.

Ok. Then in general, why do you think that people believe things that are nonsense?

nullzero wrote: »

I
I have already stated clearly my stance on holocaust denial. Perhaps you should have another look over what I said. The answers have already been given should you care to read carefully enough to see them.

Again, you haven't really.

Cheerful claims that the number of Jewish people killed by the Nazis is significantly lower than the 6 million figure accepted by most historians.
At times he has suggested that the figure is 3-4 million.
And again, he believes that the 6 million figure is the result of historians being involved in a large conspiracy to inflate this number.
If any of this is inaccurate, I'm sure I'll be corrected.

Based on the stance you stated in your previous post, if someone did this, you would agree that this is holocaust denial.

Is this accurate?

nullzero · 15-04-2020 5:00pm

King Mob wrote: »

Ok. Then in general, why do you think that people believe things that are nonsense?

Again, you haven't really.

Cheerful claims that the number of Jewish people killed by the Nazis is significantly lower than the 6 million figure accepted by most historians.
At times he has suggested that the figure is 3-4 million.
And again, he believes that the 6 million figure is the result of historians being involved in a large conspiracy to inflate this number.
If any of this is inaccurate, I'm sure I'll be corrected.

Based on the stance you stated in your previous post, if someone did this, you would agree that this is holocaust denial.

Is this accurate?

Yes I would agree that rounding the number of deaths in the holocaust down is holocaust denial. I haven't stated anything contrary to that at any point.

In general why do people believe things that are nonsense? I have already answered that. Do you have a problem comprehending text?

Dohnjoe · 15-04-2020 5:14pm

nullzero wrote: »

Yes I would agree that rounding the number of deaths in the holocaust down is holocaust denial.

Good.

King Mob · 15-04-2020 5:18pm

nullzero wrote: »

Yes I would agree that rounding the number of deaths in the holocaust down is holocaust denial. I haven't stated anything contrary to that at any point.

Ok. Then cheerful is a holocaust denier as he believes that the number is significantly lower than 6 million.

nullzero wrote: »

In general why do people believe things that are nonsense? I have already answered that. Do you have a problem comprehending text?

But you haven't.
You said:

As for why people make errors in judgement, we'll humans are fallible, there's not much more you can say about that on a macro level.
...
Are some people deficient in some ways? Possibly, who am I to say?

Which is you avoiding making general statements.

So, your original stance that people in general are capable of filtering out nonsense doesn't really hold up.
Lots of people believe all sorts of nonsense like holocaust denial and flat eartherism etc.

Personally, I don't think it's because people are deficient. And I don't believe that being a holocaust denier automatically means you are a racist (though there's a correlation).
I think it's because many conspiracy theories either through design and deliberate marketing as well as just natural abilities to stick in people's minds tend to be a lot more convincing that many people realise.

The Nal · 15-04-2020 5:23pm

So seems youtubes decision to take down these 5G vidoes was based on David Ickes interview. Including the quote below.

When asked for his reaction to reports of 5G masts being set on fire in England and Northern Ireland, he responded: "If 5G continues and reaches where they want to take it, human life as we know it is over... so people have to make a decision."

Several users subsequently called for further attacks on 5G towers in the comments that appeared alongside the feed.

The interview was watched by about 65,000 people as it was streamed, some of whom clicked an on-screen button to trigger payments to make their live chat reactions stand out.

Proper grifting!

nullzero · 15-04-2020 5:26pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Good.

I had repeatedly stated that if you care to read carefully over my posts.

nullzero · 15-04-2020 5:32pm

King Mob wrote: »

Ok. Then cheerful is a holocaust denier as he believes that the number is significantly lower than 6 million.

But you haven't.
You said:

Which is you avoiding making general statements.

So, your original stance that people in general are capable of filtering out nonsense doesn't really hold up.
Lots of people believe all sorts of nonsense like holocaust denial and flat eartherism etc.

Personally, I don't think it's because people are deficient. And I don't believe that being a holocaust denier automatically means you are a racist (though there's a correlation).
I think it's because many conspiracy theories either through design and deliberate marketing as well as just natural abilities to stick in people's minds tend to be a lot more convincing that many people realise.

I have answered your questions in detail. Each time I have done so you haven't been satisfied with what I've said. That's your problem I'm afraid. Either you have a problem comprehending simple statements or your are being purposefully obtuse.

The net result is the same however. You believe, falsely that if you continue to post lies (stating that I have not answered questions when I demonstrably have done so is lying) you will somehow expose me in some way. You are free to waste your own time and appear as foolish as you like. All your queries have been answered, each time you claim the answers aren't up to your expectations. Your expectations are your problem I'm afraid. If you can't understand what is being said in response to you or choose to pretend to not understand that is on you.

Cheerful Spring2 · 15-04-2020 5:33pm

nullzero wrote: »

From what I read he was saying 2.5 to 3 million killed in camps with the remainder made up from other modes of death. That adds up to the accepted net amount of 6 million . Perhaps Cheerful spring can clarify that for me.
.

Nullzero. I writing this for you.
Gerald Reitlinger, acknowledged to be one of the finest holocaust researchers in the world believes the holocust event took about 4 million + Jewish lives.
I think his number it likely to be true.Another 2 million likely died from other causes (some i listed earlier) and immigration some fled before it got bad.
Others take is 6 million murdered during the Holocust others have extended as high as 11 million.

I do accept 6 million Jews disappeared from Europe after 1933. The 1933 census is legit ( no argument there)
I don’t believe for a minute and call me racist if you like 6 million Jews got massacred in Poland and nowhere else.
Any bit of exploration into this topic establishes the deaths camps opened for 1 to 2 years and then closed in 1942. So it’s Logistically impossible to gas 6 million Jews in just two years.
Most people who never studied the holocaust, believe the death camps continued open till 1945, that’s a false memory, Hollywood is to blame for that.

Auschwitz encampment was the only death camp still in existence in Poland early 1945, late 1944 German camp guards fled and left the prisoners to look after themselves. Many died in the camp too afraid and shocked to leave.
End of day you can blame the Nazis for 6 million fleeing or taken from from their homes- but it not logical 6 million got murdered just in Poland.

nullzero · 15-04-2020 5:37pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Nullzero. I writing this for you.
Gerald Reitlinger, acknowledged to be one of the finest holocaust researchers in the world believes the holocust event took about 4 million + Jewish lives.
I think his number it likely to be true.Another 2 million likely died from other causes (some i listed earlier) and immigration some fled before it got bad.
Others take is 6 million murdered during the Holocust others have extended as high as 11 million.

I do accept 6 million Jews disappeared from Europe after 1933. The 1933 census is legit ( no argument there)
I don’t believe for a minute and call me racist if you like 6 million Jews got massacred in Poland and nowhere else.
Any bit of exploration into this topic establishes the deaths camps opened for 1 to 2 years and then closed in 1942. So it’s Logistically impossible to gas 6 million Jews in just two years.
Most people who never studied the holocaust, believe the death camps continued open till 1945, that’s a false memory, Hollywood is to blame for that.

Auschwitz encampment was the only death camp still in existence in Poland early 1945, late 1944 German camp guards fled and left the prisoners to look after themselves. Many died in the camp too afraid and shocked to leave.
End of day you can blame the Nazis for 6 million fleeing or taken from from their homes- but it not logical 6 million got murdered just in Poland.

As long as we can agree that the net result is the same number of Jews dead(6 million) at the hands of the Nazis I have no problem.

As for what others here are attributing to you, I find it difficult to appropriate those claims at face value as the people making those claims seem incapable of debating in good faith.

Play the ball not the man, if everyone could engage on that level this thread would have a lot less bickering and nonsense posted in it.

Cheerful Spring2 · 15-04-2020 5:41pm

nullzero wrote: »

As long as we can agree that the net result is the same number of Jews dead(6 million) at the hands of the Nazis I have no problem.

I can agree the 6 million number disappeared is legit. What happened to 6 million? My point is you can't claim all 6 million after 1933 got killed by death squads, thrown in pits, and gassed.

nullzero · 15-04-2020 5:48pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

I can agree the 6 million number disappeared is legit. What happened to 6 million? My point is you can't claim all 6 million after 1933 got killed by death squads, thrown in pits, and gassed.

That is contrary to what the other posters are claiming you believe. I would assume you take exception to be misrepresented in this manner?
The one ammendment I would make would make you be to change "dissappeared" to "died".

Dohnjoe · 15-04-2020 5:53pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Nullzero. I writing this for you.
Gerald Reitlinger, acknowledged to be one of the finest holocaust researchers in the world believes the holocust event took about 4 million + Jewish lives.
I think his number it likely to be true.Another 2 million likely died from other causes (some i listed earlier) and immigration some fled before it got bad.
Others take is 6 million murdered during the Holocust others have extended as high as 11 million.

I do accept 6 million Jews disappeared from Europe after 1933. The 1933 census is legit ( no argument there)
I don’t believe for a minute and call me racist if you like 6 million Jews got massacred in Poland and nowhere else.
Any bit of exploration into this topic establishes the deaths camps opened for 1 to 2 years and then closed in 1942. So it’s Logistically impossible to gas 6 million Jews in just two years.
Most people who never studied the holocaust, believe the death camps continued open till 1945, that’s a false memory, Hollywood is to blame for that.

Auschwitz encampment was the only death camp still in existence in Poland early 1945, late 1944 German camp guards fled and left the prisoners to look after themselves. Many died in the camp too afraid and shocked to leave.
End of day you can blame the Nazis for 6 million fleeing or taken from from their homes- but it not logical 6 million got murdered just in Poland.

But you claimed the figure was 2.5 to 3 million Jews..

I like how your Holocaust denial is "flexible" depending on having a potential ally in your debates

King Mob · 15-04-2020 6:14pm

nullzero wrote: »

That is contrary to what the other posters are claiming you believe. I would assume you take exception to be misrepresented in this manner?
The one ammendment I would make would make you be to change "dissappeared" to "died".

There's a reason he's saying "disappeared" and not "died."

You are doing some very creative misreading of his posts to avoid admitting his claims are holocaust denial.

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Nullzero. I writing this for you.
Gerald Reitlinger, acknowledged to be one of the finest holocaust researchers in the world believes the holocust event took about 4 million + Jewish lives.
I think his number it likely to be true. Another 2 million likely died from other causes (some i listed earlier) and immigration some fled before it got bad.
Others take is 6 million murdered during the Holocust others have extended as high as 11 million.

Firstly, the accepted figure is around 11 million people. (6 million Jewish people and 5 million other people from other persecuted minorities.)

Saying "Four million + Jewish lives" is not accurate. It's Holocaust denial.

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

So it’s Logistically impossible to gas 6 million Jews in just two years.
Most people who never studied the holocaust, believe the death camps continued open till 1945, that’s a false memory, Hollywood is to blame for that.

No one claims that 6 million Jewish people were gassed.

The figure of 6 million people comes from a combination of many different methods which include gassing in camps, gassing in specially made vans, shooting, starvation etc etc.

This is a popular canard used by holocaust denialists.

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

End of day you can blame the Nazis for 6 million fleeing or taken from from their homes- but it not logical 6 million got murdered just in Poland.

No. Nazis KILLED 6 million Jewish people.

Dohnjoe · 15-04-2020 6:16pm

nullzero wrote: »

That is contrary to what the other posters are claiming you believe. I would assume you take exception to be misrepresented in this manner?
The one ammendment I would make would make you be to change "dissappeared" to "died".

The reaching going on here is pretty hilarious

You think you guys can meet in somewhere in the middle on Holocaust history?

I've clearly been here too long as I can imagine PM's from Cheerful. "These guys are dicks, I'm willing to go to 4 mm Jews dead but no more, okay maybe 5, k?"

King Mob · 15-04-2020 6:17pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

I can agree the 6 million number disappeared is legit. What happened to 6 million? My point is you can't claim all 6 million after 1933 got killed by death squads, thrown in pits, and gassed.

Cheerful, please state in a clear figure how many Jewish people were directly killed by the nazis and their actions.
How many of those disappeared Jewish people were killed and how many "fled" or otherwise vanished?

nullzero · 15-04-2020 6:18pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

The reaching going on here is pretty hilarious

You think you guys can meet in somewhere in the middle on Holocaust history?

I've clearly been here too long as I can imagine PM's from Cheerful. "These guys are dicks, I'm willing to go to 4 mm Jews dead but no more, okay maybe 5, k?"

I can only take things as I find them.
If you want to argue with this person be my guest.

nullzero · 15-04-2020 6:19pm

King Mob wrote: »

There's a reason he's saying "disappeared" and not "died."

You are doing some very creative misreading of his posts to avoid admitting his claims are holocaust denial.

Firstly, the accepted figure is around 11 million people. (6 million Jewish people and 5 million other people from other persecuted minorities.)

Saying "Four million + Jewish lives" is not accurate. It's Holocaust denial.

No one claims that 6 million Jewish people were gassed.

The figure of 6 million people comes from a combination of many different methods which include gassing in camps, gassing in specially made vans, shooting, starvation etc etc.

This is a popular canard used by holocaust denialists.

No. Nazis KILLED 6 million Jewish people.

I take exception to the phrase "creative misreading" especially when coming from somebody who demonstrably has trouble comprehending things themselves.

If you can't sort this discussion properly I suggest yourself and Cheerful spring take it to pm and allow the thread to go back on topic.

King Mob · 15-04-2020 6:26pm

nullzero wrote: »

I take exception to the phrase "creative misreading" especially when coming from somebody who demonstrably has trouble comprehending things themselves.

Yes, you say this. But I just pointed out examples of Cheerful making statements that you would classify as holocaust denial.

The reason he is saying "Disappeared" and not "Died" is because he doesn't believe that 6 million Jewish people died in the holocaust. He believes the number is closer to 2-3 million and that 3 million more Jews fled (or otherwise disappeared).

Again, if this is not accurate, I welcome correction.

nullzero · 15-04-2020 6:29pm

King Mob wrote: »

Yes, you say this. But I just pointed out examples of Cheerful making statements that you would classify as holocaust denial.

The reason he is saying "Disappeared" and not "Died" is because he doesn't believe that 6 million Jewish people died in the holocaust. He believes the number is closer to 2-3 million and that 3 million more Jews fled (or otherwise disappeared).

Again, if this is not accurate, I welcome correction.

I posed that to him and I am awaiting a response. You can read that above.

Cheerful Spring2 · 15-04-2020 6:37pm

nullzero wrote: »

I take exception to the phrase "creative misreading" especially when coming from somebody who demonstrably has trouble comprehending things themselves.

If you can't sort this discussion properly I suggest yourself and Cheerful spring take it to pm and allow the thread to go back on topic.

1933 census of mainland Europe and Eastern Europe showed there was 9.5 million Jews (first point) we have population stat!
After the war the writers and researchers agreed that 3.5 million Jews were left in Europe (second point)
That’s how they reached, the 6 million for the holocaust today.

The challenging part is trying to find out what happened to the 6 million Jews in Europe after 1933. Nobody can really give you an accurate number, but its not 6 million.
I did have an opinion the Holocaust event caused about 3 to 4 million deaths.
I’m flexible on the number for lot of reasons. I explain why next.

It is nonsensical to claim every Jewish man, woman and child was gassed and killed and thrown in a pit in Poland after 1933!

The war appeared in 1939. What was transpiring in the six years inbetween?.
How many Jewish families who could afford it fled to the UK, America, Canada, South Amerca and other places? Did Jewish people not die from natural illness? Did war not kill any Jewish people? Since they blended with other nationalties on same streets, at the start of the war, theyare going to be murdered likewise as others during a military invasion.

The Nazis invaded Holland, Belgium, France and Poland where most of the Europeans Jews lived.. Then there is extreme winters in Poland! ( Hitler lost a large chunk of his eastern army to frostbite) If Hitler could not look after his own soldiers, the jews were going to be lot worse state, during the winter months in Poland. You simply can account for the 6 million with a war on for almost six years.

At the end of the day, denial, is claiming the holocust was a Jewish hoax. And no camp existed at all in poland. You cannot have a serious debate with debunkers, they keep telling you the 6 million figure gassed and murdered by death squads is accurate, even though prominent holocust researchers disagree and have gone as low as 4 million.

Holocust is killing of Jews by gassing and death squads there nothing in between!

Dohnjoe · 15-04-2020 6:39pm

King Mob wrote: »

Yes, you say this. But I just pointed out examples of Cheerful making statements that you would classify as holocaust denial.

The reason he is saying "Disappeared" and not "Died" is because he doesn't believe that 6 million Jewish people died in the holocaust. He believes the number is closer to 2-3 million and that 3 million more Jews fled (or otherwise disappeared).

Again, if this is not accurate, I welcome correction.

Revision, because "that's what historians do"

I think we are going to see is a complete rehash of the same old waffle with the usual canards, but some capitulation to push the figures higher but never 6 million, never!

Dohnjoe · 15-04-2020 6:40pm

lol, called it

King Mob · 15-04-2020 6:44pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

I did have an opinion the Holocaust event caused about 3 to 4 million deaths.

nullzero wrote: »

To clarify, 6 million Jews died in the holocaust. Striving to accurately describe the mode of death for all of them is acceptable. Saying a few million less died in total isn't.

nullzero wrote: »

Yes I would agree that rounding the number of deaths in the holocaust down is holocaust denial. I haven't stated anything contrary to that at any point.

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Holocust is killing of Jews by gassing and death squads there nothing in between!

No cheerful, it's not.
From The US Holocaust Memorial Museum:
https://www.ushmm.org/learn

The Holocaust was the systematic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jews by the Nazi regime and its allies and collaborators.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution

Jewish Loss by Location of Death
With regard to the number of Jews who died in the Holocaust, best estimates for the breakdown of Jewish loss according to location of death follow:

Location of Death Jewish Losses
Auschwitz complex (including Birkenau, Monowitz, and subcamps) approximately 1 million
Treblinka 2 approximately 925,000
Belzec 434,508
Sobibor at least 167,000
Chelmno 156,000–172,000
Shooting operations at various locations in central and southern German-occupied Poland (the Government General) at least 200,000
Shooting operations in German-annexed western Poland (District Wartheland) at least 20,000
Deaths in other facilities that the Germans designated as concentration camps at least 150,000
Shooting operations and gas wagons at hundreds of locations in the German-occupied Soviet Union at least 1.3 million
Shooting operations in the Soviet Union (German, Austrian, Czech Jews deported to the Soviet Union) approximately 55,000
Shooting operations and gas wagons in Serbia at least 15,088
Shot or tortured to death in Croatia under the Ustaša regime 23,000–25,000
Deaths in ghettos at least 800,000
Other1 at least 500,000

Cheerful Spring2 · 15-04-2020 6:53pm

King Mob wrote: »

No cheerful, it's not.
From The US Holocaust Memorial Museum:
https://www.ushmm.org/learn

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution

The Nazis kept no evidences of squad killing and gassing!. You realise that, right? How did the arrive at those figures with no records? Who was counting? I know this stuff it too much for you think about? Wander off talking about something else.

King Mob · 15-04-2020 6:56pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

The Nazis kept no evidences of squad killing and gassing!. You realise that, right? How did the arrive at those figures with no records? Who was counting? I know this stuff it too much for you think about? Wander off talking about something else.

Lol cheerful. Go talk to the historians Holocaust museum if you disagree with their figures. I'm sure they'll love to have you point out their mistake.:rolleyes:

Dohnjoe · 15-04-2020 6:56pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

The Nazis kept no evidences of squad killing and gassing!. You realise that, right? How did the arrive at those figures with no records? Who was counting? I know this stuff it too much for you think about? Wander off talking about something else.

According to world historians the death toll is officially around 6 million (consensus estimates range from 5.5 to 6.2)

So you are saying they are all wrong?

Are these historians missing something that you know?

nullzero · 15-04-2020 7:00pm

The last few posts would make wonderful PM's.

King Mob · 15-04-2020 7:04pm

nullzero wrote: »

The last few posts would make wonderful PM's.

Do you agree cheerful is a holocaust denier?

Given your previous comments and accusations I think we should clear this up a bit first.

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