The examples the company cited include "promoting a phony miracle cure for a serious illness, claiming the earth is flat, or making blatantly false claims about historic events like 9/11."
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » I have an axe to grind with Jews? I have no problem with Jews and can you find posts Where I claimed; I hated them.
Dohnjoe wrote: » You've drastically rounded down the number of Jews (only) killed during the Holocaust, which is classic Holocaust denial You've suggested that "the Jews" purposefully inflated the figures because that's the kind of thing "they'd" do I wouldn't say you are motivated by hate, just by an inability to sort fact from fiction, reality from imagination, and so on. And to keep this vaguely on topic, that's the type of mindset which is targeted by those who spread deliberately absurd and sometimes harmful conspiracies.
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » It is not a holocust thread and not at topic i want to be pulled back into again.
I just say this. You second line of your post is false. Since all Jews do not all agree! You seem to have just disregarded many Israeli and Jewish scholars debate over the real numbers killed by gassing for decades. By your theory they are holocaust deniers too. I proposed the numbers got inflated by the Soviet Union. You seemly forget again the camps were in occupied Soviet territory for 45 years. 9 million figure is based on a Jewish census from 1933. It doesn’t take into account the conditions in Europe after 1933. A Israeli scholar proposed there was 3.5 million Jews- Left after the War in Europe. So many took upon themselves to claim 6 million Jews got killed. Does not hold water at all and many Jewish scholars have noticed that and written books about it.. The number ignores immigration stats, it ignores everyday human illness, its ignores, WW2 conditions in Europe, especially Poland where the majority of European Jews lived. The Nazis invaded and bombed the crap out of the country in 1939. It ignores food shortages, it ignores winter conditions in Poland.
King Mob wrote: » Ok. So we can agree with holocaust denial is nonsense. But when people come across this theory, some people do not identify it as nonsense. They believe that it has merit and that it is true. You seem to be suggesting that this is solely because they have racist attitudes towards Jewish people. To me, that seems a bit reductionist. How about the alternative thought that the the world is flat? Why do people come to believe this is true?
Dohnjoe wrote: » You say that yet.. Holocaust denial trope after trope Indeed, it is off-topic. But it demonstrates how easy to is to convince certain individuals with false and out-of-context information.
nullzero wrote: » I'm not sure it's fair to attribute what he's saying to holocaust denial. It appears on the surface to be a different rationalisation of how the numbers were calculated. Whether or not 6 million Jews were gassed to death or some were left in a position where they were exposed to other factors and modes of death the responsibility would appear to still be laid at the feet of the Nazis, which is not holocaust denial at all. In point of fact some of what you're saying could be appropriated as libelous in another setting.
nullzero wrote: » Holocaust denial would generally be seen as something rooted in anti Jewish sentiment, there are people who also point out that other ethnicities were subject to the sharp end of the Nazi ideology, which is valid as it is rooted in fact. To say that it is reductionist to attribute holocaust denial largely to anti Jewish sentiment is a bit of a reach as most(not all but most) holocaust deniers are dyed in the wool antisemites.
nullzero wrote: » As for flat earth believers, I really have no idea. You would be better asking a flat earther that question, I'm just not qualified or motivated to answer it.
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » I never claimed the Holocust story was a Jewish hoax. You seem to think any revision is unacceptable. Whatever your opinion. Finished talking about it anyway with you guys.
King Mob wrote: » And yet, many holocaust deniers will insist that they are not anti jewish like Cheerful spring does. He is a holocaust denier and believes that the numbers accepted by real historians are artificially inflated by a concerted conspiracy. And that said conspiracy planted and falsified evidence at concentration camps to support their preferred numbers. Many Holocaust deniers claim the exact same thing. Do you believe that his theory is nonsense? Do you believe that is "rooted in anti Jewish sentiment"? This is a problem for your stance then. The idea is clearly nonsense. Yet people believe it is true. So not all everyone's judgement is accurate.
Dohnjoe wrote: » lol, I knew this was coming and I know where it's going. Okay, so historical consensus on the issue is misplaced, only around 2.5 million Jews died in the Holocaust Is the above true, or is it bull****? Or is there a third grey option we can explore here where we play with words and semantics
nullzero wrote: » Point out where I stated that everyone's judgement was/is accurate please.
nullzero wrote: » I've already addressed Cheerful springs ideas, you can read my comments on it above.
nullzero wrote: » The net result remains constant with 6 million plus Jews dead at the hands on the Nazis just with differing modes of death to what is generally assumed to be the case.
That isn't really playing with words at all, perhaps your own ability to understand things is the problem here.To clarify, anyone stating that 2.5 million Jews dead in the holocaust is the total number of deaths is patently incorrect, but that isn't what I see being said in this case.
Dohnjoe wrote: » I seem to recall that when asked whether you believed the Jews exaggerated the Holocaust, you replied with "yes". Historians revise details all the time, that's completely different from prejudiced or ignorant people who attempt to revise history to suit their faulty views
King Mob wrote: » Ok. So sometimes people make errors in judgement and think that things that are clearly nonsense are believable. Why do you think this happens? Because they are deficient in some way? I have. Your comments are not accurate as you aren't familiar with his claims. His claims are not substantially different from other holocaust deniers. At what point does "alternate" thoughts on the history of the Holocaust become full on Holocaust denial? Personally I believe this in when someone is suggesting this is a worldwide conspiracy to falsify the numbers of people killed in the Holocaust.
Dohnjoe wrote: » False, it was around 2.5 to maybe 3 million A position I suspect you will shortly change.
nullzero wrote: » I'm only going to take what is being said in this thread into consideration. As for comments made by others in historical threads on this forum, I don't feel it is reasonable to expect me to read through that level of content.
nullzero wrote: » As for why people make errors in judgement, we'll humans are fallible, there's not much more you can say about that on a macro level. ... Are some people deficient in some ways? Possibly, who am I to say?
nullzero wrote: » Your opinion on what holocaust denial is up to you. If the net number remains the same and an accurate account of different modes of death is all that's being discussed then there isn't any harm in striving to be accurate.
nullzero wrote: » From what I read he was saying 2.5 to 3 million killed in camps with the remainder made up from other modes of death. That adds up to the accepted net amount of 6 million . Perhaps Cheerful spring can clarify that for me. FYI you have no leverage for taking a condescending tone with me, get your own house in order before you begin looking down your nose at others.
King Mob wrote: » I'm simply stating the facts that we are aware of that you are not. But a few posts ago you were saying that in general people were capable of making their own judgements about what is and isn't nonsense. Now you are being reluctant to make general statements? And I'm just trying to clarify what you define as holocaust denial so there isn't further misunderstanding. If say someone claims that number of deaths in the holocaust is significantly lower than the numbers suggested by most historians, does that make it holocaust denial? (Significant here meaning a difference of 1-2 million)
nullzero wrote: » From what I read he was saying 2.5 to 3 million killed in camps with the remainder made up from other modes of death. That adds up to the accepted net amount of 6 million . Perhaps Cheerful spring can clarify that for me.
FYI you have no leverage for taking a condescending tone with me, get your own house in order before you begin looking down your nose at others.
Dohnjoe wrote: » Indeed. Maybe, or maybe you "adapt" your views depending on who you are debating against or with.
nullzero wrote: » I am not reluctant to make general statements. Show me where I have reneged on anything I have previously said please. A previous request I made in a similar vein was answered in a less than concise manner ending in you veering away from the question.
nullzero wrote: » I I have already stated clearly my stance on holocaust denial. Perhaps you should have another look over what I said. The answers have already been given should you care to read carefully enough to see them.
King Mob wrote: » Ok. Then in general, why do you think that people believe things that are nonsense? Again, you haven't really. Cheerful claims that the number of Jewish people killed by the Nazis is significantly lower than the 6 million figure accepted by most historians. At times he has suggested that the figure is 3-4 million. And again, he believes that the 6 million figure is the result of historians being involved in a large conspiracy to inflate this number. If any of this is inaccurate, I'm sure I'll be corrected. Based on the stance you stated in your previous post, if someone did this, you would agree that this is holocaust denial. Is this accurate?
nullzero wrote: » Yes I would agree that rounding the number of deaths in the holocaust down is holocaust denial.
nullzero wrote: » Yes I would agree that rounding the number of deaths in the holocaust down is holocaust denial. I haven't stated anything contrary to that at any point.
nullzero wrote: » In general why do people believe things that are nonsense? I have already answered that. Do you have a problem comprehending text?
As for why people make errors in judgement, we'll humans are fallible, there's not much more you can say about that on a macro level. ... Are some people deficient in some ways? Possibly, who am I to say?
Dohnjoe wrote: » Good.
King Mob wrote: » Ok. Then cheerful is a holocaust denier as he believes that the number is significantly lower than 6 million. But you haven't. You said: Which is you avoiding making general statements. So, your original stance that people in general are capable of filtering out nonsense doesn't really hold up. Lots of people believe all sorts of nonsense like holocaust denial and flat eartherism etc. Personally, I don't think it's because people are deficient. And I don't believe that being a holocaust denier automatically means you are a racist (though there's a correlation). I think it's because many conspiracy theories either through design and deliberate marketing as well as just natural abilities to stick in people's minds tend to be a lot more convincing that many people realise.
nullzero wrote: » From what I read he was saying 2.5 to 3 million killed in camps with the remainder made up from other modes of death. That adds up to the accepted net amount of 6 million . Perhaps Cheerful spring can clarify that for me. .
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