New neighbour applies for permission for monstrous extension - without telling us

shenanagans · 20-02-2019 12:37am

If I bought a house and planned to build a monstrous extension then you can be damn sure I'd keep a low profile and keep well away from the new neighbours.

These new neighbours didn't consult you because if they did consult you they'd have to amend their plans....which they don't want to do. They want to build what they want. Damn the neighbours.

Object to the plans. Get advice from a professional. Do it right or you'll be looking at Trump Wall for the rest of your days.

If the neighbours show up after you object....simply say that you didn't contact them about your concerns given that they didn't contact you prior to submitting their plans.

beauf · 20-02-2019 2:15am

Orchids wrote: »

Exactly this, we had same situation and again, development was scaled way back

How long ago. Everywhere I look everyones building massive square extensions to houses in a completely different style to everything around it. Its like a free for all these days.

Effects · 20-02-2019 2:26am

beauf wrote: »

Everywhere I look everyones building massive square extensions to houses in a completely different style to everything around it.

Pastiche in the vernacular is long out of fashion darling.

beauf · 20-02-2019 2:52am

Effects wrote: »

Pastiche in the vernacular is long out of fashion darling.

When you visit other country they retain their cultural aesthetic without pastiche.

Which is why they look like themselves and Ireland looks like nowhere, not even Ireland. The Docklands and Quays has no identity these days.

the_syco · 20-02-2019 2:52am

shenanagans wrote: »

If I bought a house and planned to build a monstrous extension then you can be damn sure I'd keep a low profile and keep well away from the new neighbours.

These new neighbours didn't consult you because if they did consult you they'd have to amend their plans....which they don't want to do. They want to build what they want. Damn the neighbours.

The classic haggle; low ball, and meet somewhere in the middle.

IMO, the neighbour is seeing how far they can go, and will probably get what they want, whilst the OP thinks they won.

beauf · 20-02-2019 2:56am

On one street I know a person showed one set of plans to all the neighbours then submitted something else entirely.

What they are building looks like a 4yr old drew it in crayon.

Mrs Shuttleworth · 20-02-2019 2:57am

beauf wrote: »

How long ago. Everywhere I look everyones building massive square extensions to houses in a completely different style to everything around it. Its like a free for all these days.

I agree completely and it's the same with commercial properties and hotels.

The same brown bathroom.

The same open plan / kitchen diner.

The same grey walls / furniture.

60s/70s/80s futurism in architecture were innovative and ostentatious but integrated with the craftsmanship of the past.

Today's "modern home" is sterile and soulless speaks of nothing but debt.

Effects · 20-02-2019 3:48am

beauf wrote: »

On one street I know a person showed one set of plans to all the neighbours then submitted something else entirely.

What's the point of that? It's even worse than showing them nothing at all?
Were they hoping no one would check once the plans were submitted?

beauf · 20-02-2019 3:54am

Exactly that. Won't be borrowing any sugar I'm thinking. Objections were ignored anyway.

Its like something you made with the bits left over in the lego box. Then plonked on a site too small.

A carbuncle for future generations.

Phileas Frog · 20-02-2019 6:27am

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

I then dropped in a Christmas card with our mobiles on them.

It was the other way around in your OP

GrumpyMe · 20-02-2019 8:07am

Claw Hammer wrote: »

It doesn't matter. If a wall is built so close to the boundary as to affect the neighbour, it is deemed to be a party wall and various provisions relating to party structures come into effect. If the only way the new wall can be maintained by accessing the neighbours property then it is a party wall for the purposes of the land and conveyancing (law reform) act 2009.

Claw Hammer wrote: »

A neighbour can apply to the District Court for a "Works Order" enabling the applicant to enter onto the property of the neighbour for the purpose of maintaining their own property. If the wall is going to become effectively a party structure you should be taking steps now in relation to it.

Apologies for slightly off topic post.

Not questioning your post(s), I'm interested in exploring more if you have a link or links to reading matter you could post?

JMNolan · 20-02-2019 8:14am

GrumpyMe wrote: »

Apologies for slightly off topic post.

Not questioning your post(s), I'm interested in exploring more if you have a link or links to reading matter you could post?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2009/act/27/section/45/enacted/en/html

Mrs Shuttleworth · 20-02-2019 8:32am

Phileas Frog wrote: »

It was the other way around in your OP

You are deliberately selectively misquoting me.

We only saw them once from the window and we waved to them. They waved back and kept moving.

About a month later they dropped in the letterbox a Christmas card with their names and mobile numbers on them (in the door).

We immediately replied back by text with our names and numbers and also dropped in a card a few days later (again with our numbers).

The next correspondence/communication was the text last week telling us the site notice had gone up.

Hooe that clarifies things for you.

Mrs Shuttleworth · 20-02-2019 8:44am

JMNolan wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2009/act/27/section/45/enacted/en/html

Yup I wasn't aware of that either. Thanks for posting.

That has real implications for me given they intend building right up to that glass roof we erected and paid for covering our passageway.

Presumably given the Act (I read the sections there) they'd be able to enter our property and in fact remove our glass roof to finish their wall on their side as it would actually be classed as a party wall.

A lot of homeowners wouldn't be aware of that.

lawred2 · 20-02-2019 8:47am

Mrs Shuttleworth has a wife?

Effects · 20-02-2019 8:56am

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

That has real implications for me given they intend building right up to that glass roof we erected and paid for covering our passageway.
They'd be able to enter our property and in fact remove our glass roof to finish their wall on their side as it would actually be classed as a party wall.

I thought they were building inside the boundary wall. Does your glass rest on top of the wall or how is it done?

Any work they do to your side, involving the glass, they would have to make good again.

Addle · 20-02-2019 8:58am

You'll be making a submission which contains an objection, you don't make an objection.

So they let you know that the site notice went up?

Mrs Shuttleworth · 20-02-2019 9:08am

Effects wrote: »

I thought they were building inside the boundary wall. Does your glass rest on top of the wall or how is it done?

Any work they do to your side, involving the glass, they would have to make good again.

The boundary as it stands appears to be the two passageways back to back comprised of two walls I reckon no more than a cm apart.

On our wall rests the glass roof.

What the Act (as helpfully posted by another poster) suggests is that because these two walls are so close together that effectively they are party walls.

Next door according to the plans will remove the existing passageway wall on their side and replace it with the 20 foot wall which will form the side of the new extension. So this wall according to the Act may well be a party wall if they get planning for the proposed scheme.

Widdensushi · 20-02-2019 9:15am

lawred2 wrote: »

Mrs Shuttleworth has a wife?

It's 2019

Effects · 20-02-2019 9:28am

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

The boundary as it stands appears to be the two passageways back to back comprised of two walls I reckon no more than a cm apart.

I understand now. I had just assumed that you both shared a wall.

witchgirl26 · 20-02-2019 10:35am

OP - just 2 things that stood out for me. In terms of getting to know neighbours, when I moved into my previous house, myself and my partner kept to ourselves. We'd smile and wave at neighbours but we weren't popping into them. It wasn't out of badness but we're private people and didn't necessarily want that kind of relationship with neighbours. Also on the keeping their old house - if they're planning on doing a large amount of building work, this would be a good idea as they're not going to want to live in a building site. I've had friends who rented a house for 3 months while getting a lot less work being done as they couldn't face living in it. It wouldn't indicate to me that they're planning to "flip" the house shortly after finishing the building work.

While it would have been nice of them to let you know, they realistically haven't done anything wrong and they did text you to let you know.

If you have objections, write them out clearly and leave all emotion out of it. The planning authorities don't care about how you feel. I'd be inclined to put the points in order of diminishing impact on your property. I'd also raise any concerns you have about access during the build as part of this. However you need to be aware that if there is precedent in the area for it to be granted, then it may well be despite your objections.

mikeymouse · 20-02-2019 11:33am

quote
"Last Wednesday I got a text message from the wifey telling me that a "site notice" had gone up for "a rear extension"".

Definition of wifey in English:
wifey
(also wifie)
NOUN
informal
1A condescending way of referring to a person's wife.

There will be trouble ahead here , especially if new neighbours recognise themselves from this thread !!
(assuming "wifey" refers to the neighbour)

Marcusm · 20-02-2019 11:39am

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

Yup I wasn't aware of that either. Thanks for posting.

That has real implications for me given they intend building right up to that glass roof we erected and paid for covering our passageway.

Presumably given the Act (I read the sections there) they'd be able to enter our property and in fact remove our glass roof to finish their wall on their side as it would actually be classed as a party wall.

A lot of homeowners wouldn't be aware of that.

You do realise that your attachment of the glass roof to the party structure impacts on the adjacent property in a similar manner to their proposed development?

I do think that you need to step back, remove the overwrought emotion and coldly assess what outcome is acceptable to you. It might be that you could enhance your own property during their works, eg you could ask for them to remove your glass roof for the period of the build and reinstate it with insulation?

Taking argumentative positions without a focus on the outcome will simply make you resent your home.

ted1 · 20-02-2019 11:41am

mikeymouse wrote: »

quote
"Last Wednesday I got a text message from the wifey telling me that a "site notice" had gone up for "a rear extension"".

Definition of wifey in English:
wifey
(also wifie)
NOUN
informal
1A condescending way of referring to a person's wife.

There will be trouble ahead here , especially if new neighbours recognise themselves from this thread !!
(assuming "wifey" refers to the neighbour)

I assumed he meant from his own wife

professore · 20-02-2019 11:43am

Effects wrote: »

What's that got to do with anything?

Even Trump has tastefully designed slats to allow the USA sun - best sun in the world - to shine in to Mexico.

Mrs Shuttleworth · 20-02-2019 11:46am

witchgirl26 wrote: »

OP - just 2 things that stood out for me. In terms of getting to know neighbours, when I moved into my previous house, myself and my partner kept to ourselves. We'd smile and wave at neighbours but we weren't popping into them. It wasn't out of badness but we're private people and didn't necessarily want that kind of relationship with neighbours. Also on the keeping their old house - if they're planning on doing a large amount of building work, this would be a good idea as they're not going to want to live in a building site. I've had friends who rented a house for 3 months while getting a lot less work being done as they couldn't face living in it. It wouldn't indicate to me that they're planning to "flip" the house shortly after finishing the building work.

While it would have been nice of them to let you know, they realistically haven't done anything wrong and they did text you to let you know.

If you have objections, write them out clearly and leave all emotion out of it. The planning authorities don't care about how you feel. I'd be inclined to put the points in order of diminishing impact on your property. I'd also raise any concerns you have about access during the build as part of this. However you need to be aware that if there is precedent in the area for it to be granted, then it may well be despite your objections.

Thanks a mill and I totally get all that. ☺

I've walked the length of the road looking at existing extensions particularly the new contemporary ones. A number (not many) are two storey rear and side.

I went on to the DCC website afterwards and looked at the plans for those houses particularly the more pronounced developments. All of the plans had the "side passage" left as is. So next door appears to be an attempt to set a precedent. Hopefully a compromise can be reached.

Turbohymac · 20-02-2019 11:47am

Irrelevant knowing neighbors or not and no they don't have to tell you of their intentions to build anything...but it's your rights to observe what they now intend to build and seek further details from your local planning office..then object but only if you have clearly outlined your genuine concerns...

Mrs Shuttleworth · 20-02-2019 12:13pm

I really appreciate the responses and I've calmed down a bit now.

Launching into objections against a neighbour isn't really my style but it's the path I'll have to go as the application is in.

I'll report back with an update as it goes.

beauf · 20-02-2019 12:47pm

mikeymouse wrote: »

quote
"Last Wednesday I got a text message from the wifey telling me that a "site notice" had gone up for "a rear extension"".

Definition of wifey in English:
wifey
(also wifie)
NOUN
informal
1A condescending way of referring to a person's wife.

There will be trouble ahead here , especially if new neighbours recognise themselves from this thread !!
(assuming "wifey" refers to the neighbour)

I hear it used in a informal and used a pet term.

That it meant something else 200 yrs ago is often unknown to most people.

Effects · 20-02-2019 2:09pm

Marcusm wrote: »

You do realise that your attachment of the glass roof to the party structure impacts on the adjacent property in a similar manner to their proposed development?

Quite different I'd say.

Gumbo · 20-02-2019 2:11pm

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

Hopefully a compromise can be reached.

This is probably the most civilized and rational post you've made so far on this topic.

Sit back and review the drawings, then make the observation in your own time, not in a panic now where you may rush it and let emotion get in the way of fact.

Hope the 2 of you come to a mutual agreement.

Phileas Frog · 20-02-2019 6:46pm

Phileas Frog wrote: »

It was the other way around in your OP

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

You are deliberately selectively misquoting me.

I think not. Please retract that scurrilous allegation.

Post 1:

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

We caught a glimpse of them one day and they said hello then dropped in a Christmas card with their mobile numbers at Xmas to which we replied.

Post 27:

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

I then dropped in a Christmas card with our mobiles on them.

ap73 · 21-02-2019 9:14am

Hope you don't mind me jumping on this thread but looking for a bit of advice myself. My neighbours are currently building an extension using the boundary wall previously fencing. They had a very brief conversation with my husband. My husband spoke with their builders and requested that all guttering be kept to their side. Builder instructed a paraphet wall would go up. The wall has now gone up and it is monstrous completing blocking any light into my kitchen from the side. I am not sure what kind of roof is going on the extension but am very concerned of any repercussions down the road should we decide to sell. The builder has instructed that we can build off this wall in the future and will save us money but at the moment I am more concerned with the lack of light coming into my home which has a north facing back garden. Is there a restriction to height of extension wall or do we just have to put up with it. I have never seen a party wall this height on any other extensions around here. At the moment it looks an eyesore and I am aware it will probably brighten up once rendered but still won't allow for the fact that I can no longer see the sky from my kitchen side door. It is a ground floor extension so didn't need planning permission. We will speak to the neighbours today but not sure if we have a case to ask them to reduce the wall height.

sydthebeat · 21-02-2019 9:19am

professore wrote: »

Even Trump has tastefully designed slats to allow the USA sun - best sun in the world - to shine in to Mexico.

USA is North of Mexico????

_Brian · 21-02-2019 9:25am

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

Much appreciated. I will informally approach them and tell them I will be objecting, and will have to do so because they didn't consult with me in the first instance.

I agree with you they in all likelihood didn't want to draw my attention to the content in as far as possible.

They are not living in the house and (apparently) are not selling their existing house.

Don’t say your just objecting merely because they didn’t warn you, have you any idea how shockingly petty that sounds.

sydthebeat · 21-02-2019 9:30am

ap73 wrote: »

Hope you don't mind me jumping on this thread but looking for a bit of advice myself. My neighbours are currently building an extension using the boundary wall previously fencing. They had a very brief conversation with my husband. My husband spoke with their builders and requested that all guttering be kept to their side. Builder instructed a paraphet wall would go up. The wall has now gone up and it is monstrous completing blocking any light into my kitchen from the side. I am not sure what kind of roof is going on the extension but am very concerned of any repercussions down the road should we decide to sell. The builder has instructed that we can build off this wall in the future and will save us money but at the moment I am more concerned with the lack of light coming into my home which has a north facing back garden. Is there a restriction to height of extension wall or do we just have to put up with it. I have never seen a party wall this height on any other extensions around here. At the moment it looks an eyesore and I am aware it will probably brighten up once rendered but still won't allow for the fact that I can no longer see the sky from my kitchen side door. It is a ground floor extension so didn't need planning permission. We will speak to the neighbours today but not sure if we have a case to ask them to reduce the wall height.

You have no right to light, or right to a sky view. Once the requirements for exemption are met then what your neighbors are doing technically fine. Funnily enough, if you had have allowed the gutter, you probably would have a wall about 2 foot lower that what they are building.

Look at the positives. You now have a wall that you can buildings off on the future for free. You have a rendered boundary instead of a timber fence. You can trellis it with planting to take the harsh look off it as well.

Cuddlesworth · 21-02-2019 11:58am

_Brian wrote: »

Don’t say your just objecting merely because they didn’t warn you, have you any idea how shockingly petty that sounds.

From the sounds if it, south facing garden and all, the planned 2 story extension is optimised for bringing light into the house during the evening. Which means its also pretty good at blocking the light into the OP's house and extension, that was built to optimise the light during the evenings. At a guess, in the height of summer, the majority of OP's house would be in shade by 5-6pm, 2-3 hours earlier then they are used too.

The solution to that would be for the OP to build out a large 2 story extension of similar size. Doing the same again to the neighbour beside them. Because there are already loads of 2 story extensions at the side and rear in the area and planning anything that already got permission is usually a sure thing. Its always the first in a area that creates a problem.

Gumbo · 21-02-2019 1:06pm

ap73 wrote: »

Hope you don't mind me jumping on this thread but looking for a bit of advice myself. My neighbours are currently building an extension using the boundary wall previously fencing. They had a very brief conversation with my husband. My husband spoke with their builders and requested that all guttering be kept to their side. Builder instructed a paraphet wall would go up. The wall has now gone up and it is monstrous completing blocking any light into my kitchen from the side. I am not sure what kind of roof is going on the extension but am very concerned of any repercussions down the road should we decide to sell. The builder has instructed that we can build off this wall in the future and will save us money but at the moment I am more concerned with the lack of light coming into my home which has a north facing back garden. Is there a restriction to height of extension wall or do we just have to put up with it. I have never seen a party wall this height on any other extensions around here. At the moment it looks an eyesore and I am aware it will probably brighten up once rendered but still won't allow for the fact that I can no longer see the sky from my kitchen side door. It is a ground floor extension so didn't need planning permission. We will speak to the neighbours today but not sure if we have a case to ask them to reduce the wall height.

Can you post a picture of what is happening on site?

Mrs Shuttleworth · 21-02-2019 2:36pm

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

From the sounds if it, south facing garden and all, the planned 2 story extension is optimised for bringing light into the house during the evening. Which means its also pretty good at blocking the light into the OP's house and extension, that was built to optimise the light during the evenings. At a guess, in the height of summer, the majority of OP's house would be in shade by 5-6pm, 2-3 hours earlier then they are used too.

The solution to that would be for the OP to build out a large 2 story extension of similar size. Doing the same again to the neighbour beside them. Because there are already loads of 2 story extensions at the side and rear in the area and planning anything that already got permission is usually a sure thing. Its always the first in a area that creates a problem.

Yes that's the general issue and I totally get that they need/want to develop.

The key issue here as I've identified is the precedent they are trying to set by going into that passageway, and then building the 19 feet wall at that point and form the side and rear extension around that.

It appears from the plans what they're trying to do is build a master bedroom, walk in dressing room and en suite from what is currently a box room, and access it by a very wide staircase and landing area from the front.

All fine and good except it will "wall me in" from a height like the lady a post or two above described and block out the light entering our glass roofed passageway, adjoining kitchen and breakfast room.

There's also the issue now of that wall if built possibly being a party wall under the new laws for which I will possibly will have responsibilities and have to give them works access.

For those reasons I don't think it unreasonable of me to think that as a courtesy I should have been told before the application went in.

jimmycrackcorm · 21-02-2019 2:45pm

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote:

For those reasons I don't think it unreasonable of me to think that as a courtesy I should have been told before the application went in.

What difference would it make if they went ahead anyway?

MrMusician18 · 21-02-2019 2:52pm

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

Absolutely without question.

Common courtesy is not that common I'm afraid.

They obviously have an idea about what they want to do. Unfortunately when you are nice about things like voluntary consultancy with neighbours, there are plenty out there who will request a change simply because they've been asked.

And if they ignored your input, there would be hard feelings.
Best let the council or ABP adjudicate

ap73 · 21-02-2019 9:48pm

kceire wrote: »

Can you post a picture of what is happening on site?

Hi Kceire,

I've sent the link to see the images by private message. Hope you can open them. Thanks.

appledrop · 21-02-2019 9:54pm

Ap73 what height is boundary wall they have built. It can't be more then 2m without planning permission.

ap73 · 21-02-2019 10:46pm

appledrop wrote: »

Ap73 what height is boundary wall they have built. It can't be more then 2m without planning permission.

Hubby tells me its about 12 foot.

appledrop · 21-02-2019 10:53pm

Just re read your post. It's actually more complicated as boundary wall seems to be actual wall of extension. Why did your husband agree to this. When anything involves building on/with the boundary wall this can't be done without the approval of neighbour. However it sounds like the builder did consult with your husband + he agreed.

An extension can be built higher than boundary wall 2m but still limits but not as sure of these. I'd get professional advice asap if I was you.

ap73 · 21-02-2019 10:58pm

appledrop wrote: »

Just re read your post. It's actually more complicated as boundary wall seems to be actual wall of extension. Why did your husband agree to this. When anything involves building on/with the boundary wall this can't be done without the approval of neighbour. However it sounds like the builder did consult with your husband + he agreed.

An extension can be built higher than boundary wall 2m but still limits but not as sure of these. I'd get professional advice asap if I was you.

Should that be from solicitor or architect? New to all this and want to maintain good relations. We're speaking to the builder tomorrow as confusion around what was actually agreed.

BarryD2 · 21-02-2019 11:07pm

Re OP, definitely lodge an objection to this proposed development if you consider it will adversely impact on your property. Get some professional advice and deal with it calmly and objectively.

It was most definitely unwise of your new neighbours not to consult you prior to developing these plans.

If in the unlikely case that they do get planning permission, then appeal it.

You can have these plans modified to take your needs into account and hold it up for years if necessary..

appledrop · 21-02-2019 11:10pm

I'm not sure where you based but even linking with the planning dept in your local council is a good start. You may not be based in Dublin City but even if you look up their website, go to planning section + then frequently asked questions it has a whole heap of scenarios about extensions etc.

Mrs Shuttleworth · 22-02-2019 4:11am

BarryD2 wrote: »

Re OP, definitely lodge an objection to this proposed development if you consider it will adversely impact on your property. Get some professional advice and deal with it calmly and objectively.

It was most definitely unwise of your new neighbours not to consult you prior to developing these plans.

If in the unlikely case that they do get planning permission, then appeal it.

You can have these plans modified to take your needs into account and hold it up for years if necessary..

I really appreciate your post.

Some posters early on the thread (who I did not respond to) sought to paint me as being unreasonable for believing as a courtesy I should have been told. Their opinion is misguided and naive.

As there was no pre-plan consultation, I've been forced down the formal route of filing an objection against an adjoining occupant, which I would never normally do.

And as you say, if it goes to An Bord Pleanala they could now be looking at two to three years before they turn a brick.

All of this could have been avoided.

bigpink · 22-02-2019 4:39am

I agree new neighbors should have at least out of courtesy chatted with the OP

New neighbour applies for permission for monstrous extension - without telling us

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