Random Wrasslin' thoughts.....

Monokne · 19-02-2019 12:36pm

leggo wrote: »

It lasted like four months before they nixed it. Define ‘working’.

Have WWE never made a bad decision?

IIRC they crowned a second champion by handing Triple H a title. It's certainly tenuous to base your evaluation of how it did or didn't work purely on the decisions of Vince & co.

If you're asking me as a fan, which I am now and was then, I don't have strong memories of feeling like either show was lacking at times based on having one champion across the two brands, whereas I do remember being disappointed when they handed Triple H a belt and he had that dreadful title run. It made Raw boring and it diluted Brock's title reign right out of the gate after a really hot coronation at Summerslam.

What did you feel as a fan during that period?

Monokne · 19-02-2019 12:37pm

Also pertinent to note that house show business declined from 02 - 03 and 03 - 04, so it had no positive impact at the gate.

leggo · 19-02-2019 12:55pm

They unified the belts at the end of 2001 and had to split them again by SummerSlam of the following year. It didn’t work. I get that you’re quite married to this idea, but it’s failed already and they had to reverse out of it. And I definitely wouldn’t put the end of The Attitude Era and the resultant downturn in business down to this one very specific idea you like, that’s tenuous.

Monokne · 19-02-2019 6:09pm

leggo wrote: »

They unified the belts at the end of 2001 and had to split them again by SummerSlam of the following year. It didn’t work. I get that you’re quite married to this idea, but it’s failed already and they had to reverse out of it. And I definitely wouldn’t put the end of The Attitude Era and the resultant downturn in business down to this one very specific idea you like, that’s tenuous.

You didn't answer my question. By what metric did they "have to" unify them? Why?

What was your experience of that period as a fan?

Necro · 19-02-2019 6:11pm

leggo wrote: »

They unified the belts at the end of 2001 and had to split them again by SummerSlam of the following year. It didn’t work. I get that you’re quite married to this idea, but it’s failed already and they had to reverse out of it. And I definitely wouldn’t put the end of The Attitude Era and the resultant downturn in business down to this one very specific idea you like, that’s tenuous.

IIRC the reason they used was Lesnar signing an exclusive deal with Smackdown and the Big Gold Belt coming back which led to the formation of Evolution after HHH and Flair fought for it in the main event on Raw.

Might give that old session of events a rewatch now you've jogged my memory

Necro · 19-02-2019 6:14pm

Monokne wrote: »

You didn't answer my question. By what metric did they "have to" unify them? Why?

What was your experience of that period as a fan?

They unified them at Armageddon after WWE beat the Alliance, there were two world titles in action.

Jericho's reign as Undisputed Champ was a bit meh. Then it was hotshotted to HHH, Hogan, Taker and Rock for a month each respectively before Lesnar took it and made it exclusive.

The brand split began to start about that time with Lesnar being signed exclusively to Smackdown.

The in between times were a bit silly with all the champions.

Monokne · 19-02-2019 6:14pm

Necro wrote: »

IIRC the reason they used was Lesnar signing an exclusive deal with Smackdown and the Big Gold Belt coming back which led to the formation of Evolution after HHH and Flair fought for it in the main event on Raw.

Might give that old session of events a rewatch now you've jogged my memory

Yeah fire ahead. You can be the guinea pig and see how the shows were in the time period before and after they split the titles again.

I do recall the title being poorly booked around that time. The hotshotting of the title made it feel less important. Equally, the Triple H reign on Raw once the splut with the world title was an even lower point. Late 2002 Raw was a chore.

leggo · 19-02-2019 10:18pm

Sorry only getting to sit down and properly look at this now.

It actually happens that I remember that period really well because it coincides with when I was a little teenager just starting to write 'on the IWC', so I was obsessively writing/reading TV reports, news blurbs, columns, whatever I could. From memory, Hogan beat Triple H at Backlash (in a match that goes under the radar for how bonkers fun it was), then lost to Taker in a godawful match a month later. Taker feuded with Jeff Hardy on Raw (culminating in their ladder match) before losing to The Rock in an excellent 3-way also involving Angle at Vengeance IIRC. That set up Rock/Brock.

And yeah, people hated it. It was kinda like how things are now with Brock and the Universal Title. At first, with Hogan, if memory serves they tried to have him do all TV shows but that didn't work because he'd be on the other show cutting a generic nostalgia promo that got old fast, so they'd just keep the champion off the other show and it left the main eventers (when they still had a pretty top heavy roster) running in place until they came back. In those days, too, with few exceptions you'd kind of 'graduate' from IC Title level so it'd be weird for a main eventer to go back to that to kill time and have a main event level programme atop the show sans a World Champion. So it was bad and people hated it. Like I said, it just didn't work.

Look, I'm not against the idea in theory, I imagine dual champions rankles with my OCD in much the same way it rankles with you, i.e. there should be ONE champion or else what are they champion of? And it winds me up tbh that the Women's Tag Titles get special cross-brand preference when World Titles don't. But what's the flip side? If you're going to do this with the WWE/Universal Title, then you have to do it with the Women's belts (if you're in any way serious about the women's division now being equal) and likely the tag belts too. That leaves three divisions per show running in place for a month at a time without a feature programme with only no 1 contendership to fight for, and that trope gets old fast, much less with three divisions. You might be about to say 'do grudge matches', but less is more with those kind of feuds. If everything becomes a bloodfeud about a personal grudge, nothing matters.

Then what you have to consider is that the concept of multiple champions in sports isn't actually strange to the primary market in the States, where they borrow a lot of infrastructural creative stuff from (e.g. commissioners/GMs etc). In the NFL, NBA, MLB etc you've got champions of smaller divisions, then champions of conferences, THEN the main champions. It's a moreish culture and that's reflected in their sports, so they wouldn't even blink at this kinda thing the way we do.

Again, the idea works in theory until you red team it and start building counterpoints, then you realise that the solution they have is probably best on balance for the setup they're running. Does stuff get lost in the mix and does it get confusing? Sure, but it would the other way too. And even if it got less confusing, it could get a lot more boring for the sake of curing the OCD of some nerds like us who are going to watch anyway, you know?

TimesArrow · 19-02-2019 11:17pm

the old footage of Lesnar this week on raw combined with listening to the most recent Something to Wrestle with pod (eddie winning the title at no way out 2004) led me to watch a few old clips/matches of lesnar from his first tenure with the company. I remember reading a bit about him before he debuted but never thought he'd have the impact he had in those first few months. he looked amazing- physique, power, speed, he had everything. and he had a variety of moves, its a shame he doesn't break most of them out anymore. He's been back for 7 years now. I've never really cared about him during most of that period. Beaten everyone in his path and they're setting it up now for Seth to be the "one" to end the reign

Omackeral · 20-02-2019 12:23am

Here's a random wrasslin' thought since we're on about Brock Lesnar. If he hit the shooting star press properly at WrestleMania 19 it would be one of the defining 'moments' of all time. Such a bloody shame because he was well able for it.

oneilla · 20-02-2019 1:39am

Omackeral wrote: »

Here's a random wrasslin' thought since we're on about Brock Lesnar. If he hit the shooting star press properly at WrestleMania 19 it would be one of the defining 'moments' of all time. Such a bloody shame because he was well able for it.

He was heavier by Wrestlemania 19. Second gif is from OVW and the first was from around Mania season in 2002. He'd also been working a heavier schedule and the match with Kurt was longer with more pressure.

It would have been a great moment though.

PTH2009 · 20-02-2019 1:46am

oneilla wrote: »

He was heavier by Wrestlemania 19. Second gif is from OVW and the first was from around Mania season in 2002. He'd also been working a heavier schedule and the match with Kurt was longer with more pressure.

It would have been a great moment though.

wonder could he do that high flying spots now ???

Itssoeasy · 20-02-2019 10:16pm

Today is the 30th anniversary of the first of the steamboat vs flair trilogy in 1989 which I personally think is the greatest three matches by two wrestlers ever put on in a calendar year. It's wrestling porn IMO. I mean it's just perfect and its why I've always liked flair and his matches with macho man and I'm 1992 and steamboat vs savage at wrestlemania 3 are some of my favourite matches I've ever seen.

sirmanga · 21-02-2019 7:32am

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Today is the 30th anniversary of the first of the steamboat vs flair trilogy in 1989 which I personally think is the greatest three matches by two wrestlers ever put on in a calendar year. It's wrestling porn IMO. I mean it's just perfect and its why I've always liked flair and his matches with macho man and I'm 1992 and steamboat vs savage at wrestlemania 3 are some of my favourite matches I've ever seen.

I've always found the Flair vs Steamboat matches to be over-choreographed looking.

They are really good matches, but the moves are executed so flawlessly that it makes them look fake. There is no resistance to the moves they are doing on each other. Chop, take down, reversal, block, chop, etc. I always got the feeling that these two were so comfortable working with each other that it had almost become like a dance routine to them rather than having a fight that looked real.

Frank O. Pinion · 21-02-2019 9:37am

Random thought: R-Truth is in his second reign as United States Champion. He first won the title after Bret Hart had to vacant it...

Officer999 · 23-02-2019 12:26am

Very late to this but finally saw the Andre the Giant HBO documentary today.

Absolutely incredible documentary. Also very surreal to see Vince break down at the end. I thought he was made of stone.

Itssoeasy · 23-02-2019 1:34am

Officer999 wrote: »

Very late to this but finally saw the Andre the Giant HBO documentary today.

Absolutely incredible documentary. Also very surreal to see Vince break down at the end. I thought he was made of stone.

Yeah that vince moment caught me of guard when I saw it. Am I remembering it right that Vince said that if something is bad or traumatic he blanks it ?

SureYWouldntYa · 23-02-2019 1:37am

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Yeah that vince moment caught me of guard when I saw it. Am I remembering it right that Vince said that if something is bad or traumatic he blanks it ?

That explains why he's happy to send out crap so often

He just forgets about it straight away

Itssoeasy · 23-02-2019 1:40am

SureYWouldntYa wrote: »

That explains why he's happy to send out crap so often

He just forgets about it straight away

Well no he's booking crap TV at the moment because the guy is in his 70's and looks it and is clearly turning into stubborn 1989 Verne Gagne and just carrying on regardless.

Itssoeasy · 23-02-2019 2:29am

i've decided to rewatch last year(2018) Raw on the WWE Network and I'm up to the Raw after last year's Royal Rumble and I knew this but seeing it with the benefit of time Asuka's English is really poor. Nak, Kairi, and Io(Although Io's mother was/is an English teacher so she has an advantage) English is good to very good.

cian68 · 23-02-2019 2:36am

Itssoeasy wrote: »

i've decided to rewatch last year(2018) Raw on the WWE Network

You should go in the Hall Of Fame

Itssoeasy · 23-02-2019 2:44am

cian68 wrote: »

You should go in the Hall Of Fame

well I've seen most if not all of all of anyway but most of raw I didn't watch live so I want to get a fuller picture so I don't come across as a gob****e talking about the WWE product the past year. I'm not saying I'll rewatch it all(it's garbage in part I know) but I'm up for giving it the old college try.

J. Marston · 23-02-2019 2:53am

Itssoeasy wrote: »

i've decided to rewatch last year(2018) Raw on the WWE Network and I'm up to the Raw after last year's Royal Rumble and I knew this but seeing it with the benefit of time Asuka's English is really poor. Nak, Kairi, and Io(Although Io's mother was/is an English teacher so she has an advantage) English is good to very good.

I don't get why they keep giving her a mic. She's one of the rare people who people seem to like just for her presence/aura, she always gets a pop but then the "What?" starts when she begins talking. Less is more. Same goes for Braun.

Officer999 · 23-02-2019 12:26pm

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Yeah that vince moment caught me of guard when I saw it. Am I remembering it right that Vince said that if something is bad or traumatic he blanks it ?

Yeah he said if something hurts him he removes it completely from his mind.

He said it in relation to been questioned when was the last time he spoke to Andre and he couldn't remember

Itssoeasy · 23-02-2019 1:58pm

Also further to my post last night about watching raw from 2018 in full on the network. I've reached the point where the coach has returned and he's already bugging me. I know he goes away again so that's good.

Omackeral · 23-02-2019 4:54pm

Nightmare on Helms Street is one of the best finishing move names of all time.

diusmr8a504cvk · 25-02-2019 12:20am

Piper Niven (worst name ever) and Trent Seven get a serious free pass with regard to their awful shape.

Omackeral · 25-02-2019 8:42am

Taylor Gray Physician wrote: »

Piper Niven (worst name ever) and Trent Seven get a serious free pass with regard to their awful shape.

Trent's hair tho...

Itssoeasy · 25-02-2019 7:03pm

Today is the 70th birthday of IMO the GOAT of professional wrestling the nature boy ric flair. There may be others who were better in ring then him and had more varied matches but none overall were any better than Ric Flair.

SureYWouldntYa · 01-03-2019 2:47am

Imagine if after his failed shooting star press at WM19, Lesnar was either straight ko'd or too out of it to finish the match

Would have been a surreal end to Mania, not in a good way obviously

It was bloody amazing how he was able to finish the match and hit the final F5 at all

Random Wrasslin' thoughts.....

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