Creche charging for child's place during closure.

lawred2 · 20-03-2020 2:41pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Any company that has employees working from home is paying the same amount of wages for what is, in most cases, significantly reduced output.

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China?

lawred2 · 20-03-2020 2:43pm

murphyebass wrote: »

Unless your creche specifically tells you that you can cancel your direct debit it would be downright foolish of anyone to think that you would keep your place if you stopped paying them.

So extortion then?

GreeBo · 20-03-2020 3:00pm

lawred2 wrote: »

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China?

Employers are still paying staff whilst they are in receipt of significantly lower services.
I thought the point was obvious...

GreeBo · 20-03-2020 3:02pm

lawred2 wrote: »

So extortion then?

In much the same way as a landlord "extorts" rent from you...sure.

lawred2 · 20-03-2020 3:04pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Employers are still paying staff whilst they are in receipt of significantly lower services.
I thought the point was obvious...

Well significantly lower services is a reach. Is not the case for our company anyway. However it still stands that that at least those employers are getting something in return for salaries paid.

Childcare providers will neither pay staff nor provide a service.

It's not remotely close to being the same thing.

Employment contracts are not comparable to service contracts.

lawred2 · 20-03-2020 3:05pm

GreeBo wrote: »

In much the same way as a landlord "extorts" rent from you...sure.

Do landlords charge you for non occupancy?

GreeBo · 20-03-2020 3:07pm

lawred2 wrote: »

Do landlords charge you for non occupancy?

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China?

They would charge you if you said that you wouldn't be there for 2 months but expected that the property be kept for you.

lawred2 · 20-03-2020 3:09pm

GreeBo wrote: »

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China?

Cool.

lawred2 · 20-03-2020 3:12pm

GreeBo wrote: »

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China?

They would charge you if you said that you wouldn't be there for 2 months but expected that the property be kept for you.

Not remotely the same thing.

This would be more like the landlord asking you out as they wanted use for six months. But they still wanted you to keep paying full rent so you could move back in in six months time.

This is not the same as a taking your kids out on holidays and expecting the creche to reduce fees because of your own decisions.

A balance needs to be found here. Our creche wants full fees in perpetuity to hold places. Yet we know all staff have been let go already.

You're ok with that. We're not.

Let's leave it there.

dubrov · 20-03-2020 3:13pm

GreeBo wrote: »

You call it blackmail, but can you give me another example where an individual or business would guarantee a resumption of service without any payment during the times of no service?

I wouldnt expect a hotel to keep my room free for me in between my bookings for example.

A closer example would be if you were staying in a hotel that was closed due to CV19. They may not be bankrupt before they ca reopen but they sure as hell wouldn't try charging you until then.

GreeBo · 20-03-2020 3:15pm

lawred2 wrote: »

Not remotely the same thing.

This would be more like the landlord asking you out as they wanted use for six months. But they still wanted you to keep paying full rent so you could move back in in six months time.

This is not the same as a taking your kids out on holidays and expecting the creche to reduce fees because of your own decisions.

A balance needs to be found here. Our creche wants full fees in perpetuity to hold places. Yet we know all staff have been let go already.

You're ok with that. We're not.

Let's leave it there.

The creche arent asking you out, the government has ordered creches to be closed.

I'm not "ok with that" by the way, but I think expecting the creche to keep you a place when you arbitrarily decide to stop paying them is crazy.

lawred2 · 20-03-2020 3:18pm

GreeBo wrote: »

The creche arent asking you out, the government has ordered creches to be closed.

I'm not "ok with that" by the way, but I think expecting the creche to keep you a place when you arbitrarily decide to stop paying them is crazy.

And that's why I said there needs to be a balance. Not 100% fees on threat of losing a place while they've no staff costs of their own.

GreeBo · 20-03-2020 3:19pm

lawred2 wrote: »

And that's why I said there needs to be a balance. Not 100% fees on threat of losing a place while they've no staff costs of their own.

Not all creches have laid off their staff, mine hasnt for example.

argentum · 20-03-2020 3:21pm

I think first of all that so many people have lost their jobs that all creche places wont be needed when this is over.
The knock on effect of it all is that some creches wont reopen at all as either they'll be empty or the staff wont go back .
I'd be pissed off if i paid full fees and the creche just closed and left you in the lurch anyway.
You'll be way down the list of creditors

lawred2 · 20-03-2020 3:24pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Not all creches have laid off their staff, mine hasnt for example.

And that's great.

Ours has not. Hence our reluctance to keep handing over fees for a full service we're not in receipt of.

I don't know. Maybe I'm being unreasonable expecting some sort of recognition of that reality from the creche.

tart29016 · 20-03-2020 3:28pm

Has anyone been told if full fee is not paid until a certain time then they will use the deposit to cover the fees.

We got their email yesterday to that effect.

I've checked the terms & conditions and do not see any clause allowing them to do that.

GreeBo · 20-03-2020 3:35pm

lawred2 wrote: »

And that's great.

Ours has not. Hence our reluctance to keep handing over fees for a full service we're not in receipt of.

I don't know. Maybe I'm being unreasonable expecting some sort of recognition of that reality from the creche.

I'd certainly have expected them to have contacted parents at this stage, even if you dont like what they tell you.

pc7 · 20-03-2020 3:53pm

Still waiting to hear from our Creche (large chain), I'd hazard a guess that they will want and try to charge us full fees. I know the staff are paid until the end of the month. It was announced today that rates can be put off for 3 months, so take that off and then if they tell staff to sign on they can feck off. I would pay a fee per month to hold places, but if they want full fee I'll roll the dice and take the chance. It could be months before they reopen. We could be down to 1 wage next month so I can't sustain that.

AulWan · 20-03-2020 4:00pm

Heres just a wild and crazy thought.

What if creche owners arranged for their employees to mind 1/2 of their regular kids each in their own homes, creche keeps paying minder, parent keeps paying fees?

For those who still need the service, obviously.

I don't know if it would be workable, but it would help out frontline staff at least, like those working here?

And push less of it under the table.

(eta) Non high risk staff only (obviously) - and alternatively they could mind in the child's home, while still being paid by the creche.. surely some work around can be found for at least some cases?

mloc123 · 20-03-2020 4:03pm

pc7 wrote: »

Still waiting to hear from our Creche (large chain), I'd hazard a guess that they will want and try to charge us full fees. I know the staff are paid until the end of the month. It was announced today that rates can be put off for 3 months, so take that off and then if they tell staff to sign on they can feck off. I would pay a fee per month to hold places, but if they want full fee I'll roll the dice and take the chance. It could be months before they reopen. We could be down to 1 wage next month so I can't sustain that.

Giraffe by any chance?

HelgaWard · 20-03-2020 4:06pm

Ww got an e-mail from our creche yesterday to say they will not be charging fees.

neris · 20-03-2020 6:28pm

Insurance would be an issue for a start

AulWan wrote: »

Heres just a wild and crazy thought.

What if creche owners arranged for their employees to mind 1/2 of their regular kids each in their own homes, creche keeps paying minder, parent keeps paying fees?

For those who still need the service, obviously.

I don't know if it would be workable, but it would help out frontline staff at least, like those working here?

And push less of it under the table.

(eta) Non high risk staff only (obviously) - and alternatively they could mind in the child's home, while still being paid by the creche.. surely some work around can be found for at least some cases?

AulWan · 20-03-2020 6:32pm

neris wrote: »

Insurance would be an issue for a start

You're right.

****ing insurance.

Always a stumbling block.

Markcheese · 20-03-2020 7:11pm

What are the main expenses for a creche ,
staff .. obviously ,most got let go last week are on welfare ,they should be collecting last week's wages this week (week in hand )
Food costs are nill,
Insurance is still a cost
Licences for soft ware ,and fees for ongoing professional services are gonna be mainly the same .. rates .. a lot of council's are waving them ...
Rent and or loans ,it's up to the owner to negotiate with their bank and landlord ... But it'd be a pretty ****ty land lord who'd try dump a decent tenant with a recession on the way

Ultimately, imo if they're not providing the service ,they shouldnt be charging .. hard on the owners and staff .. but this whole thing is hard on loads of people ...

salmocab · 20-03-2020 7:28pm

Markcheese wrote: »

What are the main expenses for a creche ,
staff .. obviously ,most got let go last week are on welfare ,they should be collecting last week's wages this week (week in hand )
Food costs are nill,
Insurance is still a cost
Licences for soft ware ,and fees for ongoing professional services are gonna be mainly the same .. rates .. a lot of council's are waving them ...
Rent and or loans ,it's up to the owner to negotiate with their bank and landlord ... But it'd be a pretty ****ty land lord who'd try dump a decent tenant with a recession on the way

Ultimately, imo if they're not providing the service ,they shouldnt be charging .. hard on the owners and staff .. but this whole thing is hard on loads of people ...

Were most let go last week? Most I know of but certainly not all have not let staff go yet, some are doing reduced wages.
There is also ongoing bills for electricity and gas.

murphyebass · 20-03-2020 7:55pm

lawred2 wrote: »

So extortion then?

How exactly is it extortion for a business to drop places of anyone who doesn’t pay them?

Plenty of others will take your place if you choose not to pay.

Their crèche, their rules. You don’t like it, find a crèche that you do like the rules of.

I honestly can’t get over the entitlement that people feel they have in relation to this topic. Mental stuff.

lawred2 · 20-03-2020 8:03pm

murphyebass wrote: »

How exactly is it extortion for a business to drop places of anyone who doesn’t pay them?

Plenty of others will take your place if you choose not to pay.

Their crèche, their rules. You don’t like it, find a crèche that you do like the rules of.

I honestly can’t get over the entitlement that people feel they have in relation to this topic. Mental stuff.

Pfffft

It's an entitlement now to expect a service in return for a service charge?

Do one pal.

murphyebass · 20-03-2020 8:06pm

lawred2 wrote: »

Pfffft

It's an entitlement now to expect a service in return for a service charge?

Do one pal.

You have an entitlement to go elsewhere if you’re not happy with having to pay for a service YOU agreed to pay for.

Also attack the post not the poster. Post reported.

lawred2 · 20-03-2020 8:10pm

murphyebass wrote: »

You have an entitlement to go elsewhere if you’re not happy with having to pay for a service YOU agreed to pay for.

Also attack the post not the poster. Post reported.

Nobody agreed to pay for a service they weren't in receipt of. Where did you get that falsehood from?

Report away. As if your own non generic post wasn't personal. Give me a break.

Daz_ · 20-03-2020 8:34pm

Looks to me that anyone agreeing that Crèches should charge full fees have some connection with one .

Markcheese · 20-03-2020 8:43pm

salmocab wrote: »

Were most let go last week? Most I know of but certainly not all have not let staff go yet, some are doing reduced wages.
There is also ongoing bills for electricity and gas.

The electricity and gas bills will be fairly low ( but still there) if the building is empty,the lights will be off ,the computers off ,the heating off ...

If they're paying all their staff full whack then maybe theres a case some charging ...

El Gato De Negocios · 20-03-2020 8:47pm

murphyebass wrote: »

How exactly is it extortion for a business to drop places of anyone who doesn’t pay them?

Plenty of others will take your place if you choose not to pay.

Their crèche, their rules. You don’t like it, find a crèche that you do like the rules of.

I honestly can’t get over the entitlement that people feel they have in relation to this topic. Mental stuff.

It kind of is tbh, whether you like it or not. And its hardly entitlement. We are paying €1600 a month, if our creche tells us we are expected to pay full fees next month but they wont be open and if we dont, we lose the place, what would you call it?

Creches have a captive market. We are saving for a house so cannot afford for one of us not to work, many other families are the same.

As I said previously, I'd have no problem making partial payment to hold our spot but being forced ie having no other option, to pay full fee for a service we cannot avail of, well that's pretty shytty behaviour.

rosmoke · 20-03-2020 8:51pm

That's like paying for a pizza but instead I'm not getting one as they don't serve pizza.
Who comes up with the idea of paying for a service they can't provide?
It just blows my mind.

It's not my responsibility how they pay their staff, it's not my business to think about their profits or revenue.
There are many people that are going to lose their jobs as companies are too greedy or just not profitable enough to put away rainy funds and they can avail of social services.

I am sorry but this is my opinion and from reading through the posts here it appears that some creches charge parents the full whack and still don't pay employees.

thomas 123 · 20-03-2020 8:56pm

murphyebass wrote: »

Plenty of others will take your place if you choose not to

I honestly can’t get over the entitlement that people feel they have in relation to this topic. Mental stuff
.

Who’s going to take the places and start paying when someone else stops?

I think you’ll find the entitlement is coming from crèches not parents, most of whom are or will be on the breadline in the coming weeks.

murphyebass · 20-03-2020 9:19pm

thomas 123 wrote: »

Who’s going to take the places and start paying when someone else stops?
.

I take it you don’t live in Dublin. It’s as bad as school here for places in crèches.

Ultimately it’s their business, they can run it how they like and if someone doesn’t like it they have the choice to leave and go elsewhere. Nobody is forcing a person not to cancel their standing order and go elsewhere.

Crèches have insurance, staff costs etc whether you have a child / children are there or not.

A lot of the people here and elsewhere who say “but they’re not paying their staff”, what actual evidence of this do you have? All antidotal hearsay or what someone wants to think as it suits their situation. ie. not wanting to pay.

The insurance is probably the biggest cost though out of anything here so unless the government steps in and pays that for all the crèches (never going to happen) I don’t see why they wouldn’t expect payment.

For the record I do not own or know anyone involve in the industry. This isn’t an alias account. It’s my only boards account. Check my posts.

Daz_ · 20-03-2020 9:31pm

murphyebass wrote: »

I take it you don’t live in Dublin. It’s as bad as school here for places in crèches.

Ultimately it’s their business, they can run it how they like and if someone doesn’t like it they have the choice to leave and go elsewhere. Nobody is forcing a person not to cancel their standing order and go elsewhere.

Crèches have insurance, staff costs etc whether you have a child / children are there or not.

A lot of the people here and elsewhere who say “but they’re not paying their staff”, what actual evidence of this do you have? All antidotal hearsay or what someone wants to think as it suits their situation. ie. not wanting to pay.

The insurance is probably the biggest cost though out of anything here so unless the government steps in and pays that for all the crèches (never going to happen) I don’t see why they wouldn’t expect payment.

For the record I do not own or know anyone involve in the industry. This isn’t an alias account. It’s my only boards account. Check my posts.

You come across very passionate in defensive of the Crèche to be honest .
Unusual for someone to be like that about a topic unless they have some connection .

thomas 123 · 20-03-2020 9:36pm

murphyebass wrote: »

I take it you don’t live in Dublin. It’s as bad as school here for places in crèches.

Ultimately it’s their business, they can run it how they like and if someone doesn’t like it they have the choice to leave and go elsewhere. Nobody is forcing a person not to cancel their standing order and go elsewhere.

Crèches have insurance, staff costs etc whether you have a child / children are there or not.

A lot of the people here and elsewhere who say “but they’re not paying their staff”, what actual evidence of this do you have? All antidotal hearsay or what someone wants to think as it suits their situation. ie. not wanting to pay.

The insurance is probably the biggest cost though out of anything here so unless the government steps in and pays that for all the crèches (never going to happen) I don’t see why they wouldn’t expect payment.

For the record I do not own or know anyone involve in the industry. This isn’t an alias account. It’s my only boards account. Check my posts.

I mean to say while crèches are closed who is going to take on a place?

Also can’t you cancel insurance and then get it again?

Sleeper12 · 20-03-2020 9:59pm

lawred2 wrote:

Nobody agreed to pay for a service they weren't in receipt of. Where did you get that falsehood from?

Whilst I don't agree with the charge nor the charge for the Christmas holiday these charges are in many of the contracts that parents signed. So in reality plenty of pare did agree to pay for a service that they won't get.

Have you looked at your own contract? You might find that you have agreed to this too

Daz_ · 20-03-2020 10:12pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Whilst I don't agree with the charge nor the charge for the Christmas holiday these charges are in many of the contracts that parents signed. So in reality plenty of pare did agree to pay for a service that they won't get.

Have you looked at your own contract? You might find that you have agreed to this too

Don’t think anyone minds paying for Christmas - staff have to get paid hols too.

Ridiculous comparison to be honest .

lawred2 · 20-03-2020 10:14pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Whilst I don't agree with the charge nor the charge for the Christmas holiday these charges are in many of the contracts that parents signed. So in reality plenty of pare did agree to pay for a service that they won't get.

Have you looked at your own contract? You might find that you have agreed to this too

Not the same thing.

cooperguy · 20-03-2020 10:27pm

If people want a professional childcare service then they need to pay the staff. If you want constantly changing, low skilled, temp staff looking after your children then make the pay as precarious as possible

lawred2 · 20-03-2020 10:30pm

cooperguy wrote: »

If people want a professional childcare service then they need to pay the staff. If you want constantly changing, low skilled, temp staff looking after your children then make the pay as precarious as possible

Sigh

The childcare workers in many cases have been laid off already.

cooperguy · 20-03-2020 10:35pm

lawred2 wrote: »

Sigh

The childcare workers in many cases have been laid off already.

In those cases, where they happen, then that is a different conversation.

starbaby2003 · 20-03-2020 10:35pm

cooperguy wrote: »

If people want a professional childcare service then they need to pay the staff. If you want constantly changing, low skilled, temp staff looking after your children then make the pay as precarious as possible

If a company treat their staff well and run into this unexpected situation where they unfortunately need to lay their staff off they will return when this is over. Where exactly are all these jobs the staff are going to run off too? The exact type of Crèches who treat their staff like crap are the ones who refuse to budge on fees as they have built up zero goodwill with staff.
Secondly the government will pay employers who continue to pay their staff.
What you are suggesting is that we the parents take all the burden and the crèche takes none.
Tell me why that is fair ?

Sleeper12 · 20-03-2020 11:06pm

Daz_ wrote:

Donâ€™t think anyone minds paying for Christmas - staff have to get paid hols too.

Daz_ wrote:

Ridiculous comparison to be honest .

Eh hello??

Every business in Ireland pays Christmas holidays. There is nothing unique in this.
Most businesses include the Christmas holiday pay in your weekly fees. CrÃ¨ches are the only business that I have ever come across that. It's a ridiculous setup. You work out how much you need to charge for the year and devide it by the amount of weeks that you plan to be open. Staff still get paid for holidays but parents don't feel ripped off or cheated.

If you care to read my post again I didn't compare Christmas holidays to this situation. I pointed out that many parents signed a contract allowing crÃ¨ches to charge at Christmas time and any time that the creche has to close.

I'm totally against these charges but the vast majority of parents definitely did sign a contract allowing this practice. Another poster claims that parents didn't agree to it but in fact most did.

Sleeper12 · 20-03-2020 11:11pm

lawred2 wrote:

Not the same thing.

You misread my post. I didn't say that Christmas was the same as this. I said that it's in the contracts for Christmas closing (that's one thing) & then totally separate in the contract it states that you agree to pay for any days that the creche doesn't open.

Again I'm against the fees but most parents signed legally binding contracts allowing them to charge for days they close.

Millem · 20-03-2020 11:23pm

There had a consumer expert on the radio this morning (newstalk). It was in relation to gyms. Basically if the gym is closed because of the coronavirus you do not have to pay your monthly fee. You should cancel the direct debit. When it reopens restart payment.

Surely would the same apply to crèches? Most people sign a contract with a gym.

Sleeper12 · 20-03-2020 11:38pm

Millem wrote:

Surely would the same apply to crÃ¨ches? Most people sign a contract with a gym.

I agree but some parents are afraid that the creche will replace their child with another child if they don't keep paying.

Personally I think the crÃ¨ches are playing a dangerous game. They had great support from parents about the insurance issue. It was the parents who forced the government to cough up money.

Millem · 21-03-2020 12:14am

I just saw Derry Clarke and his wife on the late late. They said something something along the lines of.....if the government had ordered the restaurant to shut they could claim on their “business interruption insurance”.
Do crèches have such insurance?

Toastytoes · 21-03-2020 12:15am

Derry Clarke on the Late Late now taking about closing his restaurant due to the virus and saying that if the government actually forced restaurants to close then they could claim for business interruption from their insurance.

Is it off the wall to think crèches should have similar insurance cover? They have been told to close so you’d expect them to be able to claim but by the sounds of things they don’t have comparable cover.

Creche charging for child's place during closure.

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