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Some Zoe questions

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    #62
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,775 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    beauf wrote: »
    It also includes brake down service and battery warranty.

    1. Break down service - included in almost every comprehensive insurance policy anyway. So adds zero value to buying a battery rental Zoe

    2. Battery warranty - every EV you can buy now has 8 years battery warranty. So having it as part of the battery rental adds zero value


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    #63
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I know. My own has it but its limited to a certain number of times for the same issue.

    I thought the Zoe has something else like unlimited tows to charger. I don't know the details.

    http://myrenaultzoe.com/index.php/topic/ze-assist/


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    #64
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,715 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    beauf wrote: »
    I know. My own has it but its limited to a certain number of times for the same issue.

    I thought the Zoe has something else like unlimited tows to charger. I don't know the details.

    http://myrenaultzoe.com/index.php/topic/ze-assist/

    ya i read that too - handy enough, give you a piece of mind if you do run out of power. wonder how long you would be waiting for a pick-up truck though.

    I wonder if you could throw a 13a generator into the mix and charge up by 13a granny cable as an emergency - the car might not like the clean AC input though , i think thats what I read or something to do with the centre earth on the type 2 socket is finnicky - in other words if you dont have a good earth at the Zoe type 2 earth pin it wont start to charge.


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    #65
    RangeR
    Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Zoe can charge at 22 Kw from the standard AC street charge points and will get from 0-90 odd % in an hour or a little less which to be honest won't be that much slower than fast charging especially in colder weather when the battery is cold, cold batteries charge a lot slower at 10 Deg C ( battery temp) than at 20 + Deg C and slower the colder it gets so AC at 22 kw especially in colder weather won't be much slower than fast charging. 22 AC is quite fast.

    So, On my Zoe 40 [not a Zoe 20] it takes about 3 hours to charge from 0. I did a trek to Belfast from Naas yesterday. I used a few rapid chargers rated at 43Kw AC. I couldn't get more than 22Kw. I tried 3 or 4 Rapid Chargers. Lusk, Castlebellemy, Belfast. None of them gave me higher than 22Kw. I was the only car charging at each point. This is the same charge rate as an SCP. Very confused and more research is needed.

    This added about 5 hours to my trip. We had ECO off for most of the trip as we knew [or thought] that the rapid chargers would sort us over a cuppa coffee. Not impressed.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Unfortunately the Zoe is a slow car with a 0-100 km/h of 12.3 seconds and above 100 km/h it does not have much power for over taking, maybe you can live with it.
    I find the Zoe quite pokey and definitely not a slouch, but only with ECO off. ECO on is quite slow to accelerate.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Zoe can also use the fast chargers @44 Kw however no other EV uses fast AC and whether 44 Kw AC remains supported with new chargers remains to be seen.
    Hmmm. I've yet to see me charging at anything over 22Kw.

    Deleted User wrote: »
    The question is can you live with the battery lease ? it does not mean you will get a new battery if the capacity drops to 70% , Renault can if they want give you a new one or install a reconditioned one at their choosing.
    Can you even lease the battery on a Zoe in Ireland? I know we didn't even have that choice in Naas. We had to purchase out right with a 5 to 8 year warranty.


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    #66
    RangeR
    Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    interestingly been reading up about this 'creeping' whereby as soon as you take your foot off brake in an automatic ICE car and are in Drive the car starts 'creeping' forward. i wouldnt like that personally, but there is no need to have the creep feature in an EV because the way EV's transmission are made , so in a TESLA car apparently there is a switch on the dash to turn the mode on or off and most drivers keep it off apparently.

    Its only a setting in the EV car's firmware apparently but I dont think the likes of Renault Zoe or Nissan Leaf have the driver feature to turn it on or off?

    Put it into Neutral, sorted. Even ICE manuals "creep". Take your foot off the clutch while in gear and it will want to go.

    I love the Zoe regen braking over the Leaf eBrake. The eBrake makes no sense to me.


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    #67
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,715 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    RangeR wrote: »
    ..... Can you even lease the battery on a Zoe in Ireland? I know we didn't even have that choice in Naas. We had to purchase out right with a 5 to 8 year warranty.

    yep on the older Zoe's it was rental - not sure what year it come in where you could purchase a Zoe outright without battery rental - 2016 maybe?


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    #68
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,715 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    RangeR wrote: »
    Put it into Neutral, sorted. Even ICE manuals "creep". Take your foot off the clutch while in gear and it will want to go.

    I love the Zoe regen braking over the Leaf eBrake. The eBrake makes no sense to me.

    yes - thats the best workaround i suppose


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    #69
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    RangeR wrote: »
    So, On my Zoe 40 [not a Zoe 20] it takes about 3 hours to charge from 0. I did a trek to Belfast from Naas yesterday. I used a few rapid chargers rated at 43Kw AC. I couldn't get more than 22Kw. I tried 3 or 4 Rapid Chargers. Lusk, Castlebellemy, Belfast. None of them gave me higher than 22Kw. I was the only car charging at each point. This is the same charge rate as an SCP. Very confused and more research is needed.

    This added about 5 hours to my trip. We had ECO off for most of the trip as we knew [or thought] that the rapid chargers would sort us over a cuppa coffee. Not impressed.


    I find the Zoe quite pokey and definitely not a slouch, but only with ECO off. ECO on is quite slow to accelerate.


    Hmmm. I've yet to see me charging at anything over 22Kw.



    Can you even lease the battery on a Zoe in Ireland? I know we didn't even have that choice in Naas. We had to purchase out right with a 5 to 8 year warranty.


    We were talking about the 22 Kw Zoe as that's within his budget. Yes the Lease has been dropped for the 40 Kwh.

    Talking about the 40 Kwh, which model do you have the R90 or R110 ? the R110 having 108 Hp and the 90 88 Hp.

    So the 109 will feel as powerful as the 24 Kwh Leaf.

    The 22 Kwh zoe at one stage had the 44 Kw charger as optional one some models so it had to make do with 22 Kw charging max.

    The 40 Kwh is confusing me because looking at the renault site the fast charge charge time is quoted to 80% in 65 mins for the R90 and 1 hr 40 mins for the R110 which does not make sense if they both have the same 40 Kwh battery.

    After some research I found On this site here the R110 has no fast AC charge only 22 Kw charging.

    https://insideevs.com/confirmed-2018-renault-zoe-gets-power-increase/

    Which makes sense according to the Brochure the R90 charges time at 44 Kw AC is 65 mins to 80% and 1 hr 40 mins for the R110.

    Looking at it again and this is Where I got confused is that the charge time is quoted "On a 44 Kw charger charging at 22 Kw not 44 Kw "

    So if you got the R110 it looks like Renault ditched the 44 Kw charger and instead opted for 22 Kw so this is probably why you have never seen higher than 22 Kw.

    It really baffles me sometimes why car manufacturers do daft things like this, ok I get where the Charger might not be compatible with the higher powered motor, perhaps the motor windings are different because the motor windings actually form part of the charger if I remember correctly my knowledge is a bit rusty on that charger.

    Given the cost of the 40 Kwh I feel removing 44 Kw AC is a very raw deal , Renault should have changed to CCS and be done with it, it's actually in my opinion disgraceful.

    I would not insult you by saying you should have done your research because the dealer should have gone through such extremely important details such as the various charging options and charge times at particular chargers which to the average car buyer is something they're not going to have a clue about.

    Now , let me get to an important bit here, Ireland have a very good 22 Kw AC network which really is fantastic, you have potential to charge to 80-90 % in about 2 hrs which really makes a huge difference.

    In Winter a lot of electric cars with cold batteries will struggle to charge above 30-35 Kw so 22 Kw AC is pretty good but still, Renault should have adopted CCS DC. However, use the AC network as much as you can because I have CCS charging but AC makes up the majority of my charging, I have the 11 Kw charger and it makes a big difference, I can only imagine what it's like to have 22 Kw AC so use the AC as much as possible.

    Remember also that if a car is charging on DC at the fast charger you can also use the AC side so if a Leaf driver is blocking the AC side you can politely ask him to move because at the end of the day he/she is blocking a charger.


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    #70
    RangeR
    Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Talking about the 40 Kwh, which model do you have the R90 or R110 ? the R110 having 108 Hp and the 90 88 Hp.

    So the 109 will feel as powerful as the 24 Kwh Leaf.

    R110 and yup. Pokey.


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    #71
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,373 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Well the R is limited to 22kW charging so that's explained your earlier post


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    #72
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    So sad the dealer did not mention this , it's rather shocking, charging is a big deal for an EV at the end of the day.

    It's even more sad that Renault chose not to adopt CCS because I seriously doubt Fast AC will be supported for much longer because at the end of the day only the Zoe can avail of this.


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    #73
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,775 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I seriously doubt Fast AC will be supported for much longer because at the end of the day only the Zoe can avail of this.

    Same reason CHAdeMo will not supported forever. Only Leaf can avail of this. Fast AC and CHAdeMO are obsolete. The only standard going forward is CCS. I can see even Tesla going CCS only in the near future.


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    #74
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The future is CCS but ChaDeMo will need to be supported for some time in the future.

    Renault is seriously taking the P1ss removing fast charging for the R100.


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    #75
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,715 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    you know when with other battery products they say that 'fast charging' ruins batteries and that it should be used sparingly and in normal situations slow charging will prolong the life of batteries does this apply to EV's as well?

    what have they in them Li-po batteries in them havent they , maybe the fast charging shortening battery life issue was just with lithium or ni-mh battery technology I am thinking about?


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    #76
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,373 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Deleted User wrote: »
    So sad the dealer did not mention this , it's rather shocking, charging is a big deal for an EV at the end of the day.

    It's even more sad that Renault chose not to adopt CCS because I seriously doubt Fast AC will be supported for much longer because at the end of the day only the Zoe can avail of this.


    22kW AC will be offered a lot longer than 43kW.
    Once the Zoe comes out with 100kW CCS and 22kW AC then there will be no new cars that support 43kW.


    Many cars (B class mercedes, Smart, Tesla, Zoe etc) support 11-22kW AC so there will still be that. A lot of fast chargers on the continent have a ccs plug, a chademo plug, and an untethered 22kW socket.


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    #77
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Indeed, 22 Kw AC charge points will exist for a long time, I wonder if the rumours of 22 Kw charger for the 60 Kwh Leaf are correct ? that would make a big difference.


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    #78
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    you know when with other battery products they say that 'fast charging' ruins batteries and that it should be used sparingly and in normal situations slow charging will prolong the life of batteries does this apply to EV's as well?

    what have they in them Li-po batteries in them havent they , maybe the fast charging shortening battery life issue was just with lithium or ni-mh battery technology I am thinking about?

    I wouldn't worry too much about it, if you need to fast charge then you need to.

    As the battery ages and it's internal resistance grows it will get hot faster, but there's not a lot you can do about it. It will be much less of an issue as batteries hold more charge, for instance, a 60 Kwh battery is charged a lot less than a 24 Kwh battery so the need to fast charge will be much less.

    The Zoe, Ioniq have fan cooled batteries and while not perfect is a lot better than nothing.

    The i3 battery is cooled by AC and can be fast charged all day long in the hottest weather.


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    #79
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,715 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I wouldn't worry too much about it, if you need to fast charge then you need to.

    As the battery ages and it's internal resistance grows it will get hot faster, but there's not a lot you can do about it. It will be much less of an issue as batteries hold more charge, for instance, a 60 Kwh battery is charged a lot less than a 24 Kwh battery so the need to fast charge will be much less.

    The Zoe, Ioniq have fan cooled batteries and while not perfect is a lot better than nothing.

    The i3 battery is cooled by AC and can be fast charged all day long in the hottest weather.

    ah really - whats the noise like of them then, are they noisy or not really noticeable? and imagine you have to loose power even if it is a negligible amount of power to run them , its still power.

    I presume they only operate when charging the battery? - and where would it draw power from? - the traction battery or the 12v secondary battery does anyone know?

    I never really thought about that, that the car batteries would need cooling down as they are charging ... but yeah even my mobile phone gets fiercly hot when charging (instructions for the phone says standard charge would cause less heat) but thats what 5v in a mobile phone and 480v in an EV no wonder they need to be cooled down :eek:

    no, i would have thought in design they might have come up with other ways of cooling down batteries in an EV without mechanical/fan intervention . i mean I suppose they are reliable enough fans are but they can pack up and stop working and then what?? - thermal cut out I suppose and cut off charging altogether


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    #80
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I would doubt the fan could be heard, perhaps outside the car, it would consume a tiny amount of power so wouldn't be noticeable.

    The AC in the i3 would probably use more power and I do not notice it, that being said, I never know when the battery cooling is actually active.

    Fan cooling would probably be adequate in most circumstances.


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    #81
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,715 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    anyone on here taken their Renault Zoe for an NCT and how did you get on?

    anything that Zoe particularly could be an issue in failing the NCT?

    Seeing as there is less to check on EV than an ICE car (no emission checks or fluid levels like oil , antifreeze etc) I dont suppose the test is any cheaper for EV cars? :)

    ah well as long as they aren't any dearer to get NCT'd ... (they aren't are they?)

    a nice thing anyway that they cannot fail on emmisions. Up until now we have had old ICE motors over 10 years old and always have kittens when we leave it in for NCT just in case it fails on emissions


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    #82
    Mancomb Seepgood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 417 ✭✭Mancomb Seepgood


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    ah really - whats the noise like of them then, are they noisy or not really noticeable? and imagine you have to loose power even if it is a negligible amount of power to run them , its still power.

    I presume they only operate when charging the battery? - and where would it draw power from? - the traction battery or the 12v secondary battery does anyone know?

    I never really thought about that, that the car batteries would need cooling down as they are charging ... but yeah even my mobile phone gets fiercly hot when charging (instructions for the phone says standard charge would cause less heat) but thats what 5v in a mobile phone and 480v in an EV no wonder they need to be cooled down :eek:

    no, i would have thought in design they might have come up with other ways of cooling down batteries in an EV without mechanical/fan intervention . i mean I suppose they are reliable enough fans are but they can pack up and stop working and then what?? - thermal cut out I suppose and cut off charging altogether

    The cooling fan has only ever kicked in for me at a public charger, I'd doubt it would fire up on a home charger as the rate is so much slower.Even at a fast charger it won't activate in every case.You can hear the fan from a couple of feet away but it isn't bad.


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    #83
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    In the Zoe I think the cooling fan would be more for cooling the charger because the charger is built into the car. Probably wouldn't hear the battery fan.


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    #84
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,715 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Deleted User wrote: »
    In the Zoe I think the cooling fan would be more for cooling the charger because the charger is built into the car. Probably wouldn't hear the battery fan.

    thats interesting you say the charger is built into the car ... hmmm..

    Does that mean then you could maybe make up a granny lead with a 13a 3 pin plug on one end and a Type 2 plug on the other end with 230vac Live on L1 and neutral on N and earth in the middle I wonder then ? - be a hell of a lot cheaper than 300euro + for a proper one. I am predicting not that easy or others would just be making their own ones up.


    450px-Type_2_M%26F_Pinout_wiki.JPG

    471300.jpg


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    #85
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,715 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    RangeR wrote: »
    Put it into Neutral, sorted. Even ICE manuals "creep". Take your foot off the clutch while in gear and it will want to go.

    I love the Zoe regen braking over the Leaf eBrake. The eBrake makes no sense to me.

    I have been reading about the 2018 Leaf with one pedal (is that also known as the ebrake?) . like the sound of that - put your foot on the accelerator pedal and it goes , take your foot off the accelerator pedal and it brakes / regens .

    I am presuming they still do have a brake pedal though next to the accelerator pedal (even though its called one pedal)?


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    #86
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    thats interesting you say the charger is built into the car ... hmmm..

    Does that mean then you could maybe make up a granny lead with a 13a 3 pin plug on one end and a Type 2 plug on the other end with 230vac Live on L1 and neutral on N and earth in the middle I wonder then ? - be a hell of a lot cheaper than 300euro + for a proper one. I am predicting not that easy or others would just be making their own ones up.


    450px-Type_2_M%26F_Pinout_wiki.JPG

    471300.jpg

    No it does not work this way, the car applies power only when it senses it's connected to a charge point so you need to apply this extra communication.

    300 Is not a lot for the charge point really, you should have it many years.


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    #87
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,715 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Deleted User wrote: »
    No it does not work this way, the car applies power only when it senses it's connected to a charge point so you need to apply this extra communication.

    300 Is not a lot for the charge point really, you should have it many years.

    ah right thanks - maybe it gets its sense from pins PP and CP

    true if we factor 300 or therabouts for the 13a granny cable in with the purchase of the car we wont notice it - and of course they could be sold on second hand.


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    #88
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,715 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Toying with this idea and welcome feedback.

    there's no getting away from the blasted battery rental for an older Zoe do I was thinking of factoring a years battery rental to the new (used) car

    so say if got a cheap car up Ni and it were 5,500 UK pounds (roughly for a 2013) that works out 6,364 Euro

    Then get the wife to pay 1 years battery rental up front 948.00eur

    that brings us up to 7,312.00eur

    then a 13a 3 pin granny cable at 350eur

    That brings us up to 7,662.00eur - still not bad

    and pay up 120.00eur in 1 years vehicle Tax

    That brings up to 7,782.00eur (if all my calculations are right)

    Then all she will have to do (for a year anyway) is just charge the thing

    that would make life easier for her.

    what do others reckon?


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    #89
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,775 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    Toying with this idea and welcome feedback.

    there's no getting away from the blasted battery rental for an older Zoe do I was thinking of factoring a years battery rental

    You need to factor in battery rental for the whole life of the car. And you need to factor in the penalty you have to pay Renault for the privilege of them scrapping the car for you

    It will be sale proof, it will be worthless, you will be stuck with it. How many times do all of us here have to warn you against battery rental?

    If you want an EV, but are strapped for cash, there's a Leaf up on DD with an asking price of €5,950. Buy it and avoid a world of financial pain...


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    #90
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    unkel wrote: »
    You need to factor in battery rental for the whole life of the car. And you need to factor in the penalty you have to pay Renault for the privilege of them scrapping the car for you

    It will be sale proof, it will be worthless, you will be stuck with it. How many times do all of us here have to warn you against battery rental?

    If you want an EV, but are strapped for cash, there's a Leaf up on DD with an asking price of €5,950. Buy it and avoid a world of financial pain...

    Deaf ears unkel... Andy is not for listening.... he has done the same on the Fibre to the Home thread in the Broadband forum.

    In his own words....
    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    I never have been a level headed person when it comes to trying to realise that in the end the car is going to work out more expensive and put me off buying something, i would rather not think about it and live for the day thats in it :)


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    #91
    Alkers
    Registered Users Posts: 6,811 ✭✭✭Alkers


    Andy From Sligo wrote:
    That brings up to 7,782.00eur (if all my calculations are right)


    That's literally madness, just get a leaf for the same money with no rental?!
    Do you have another car?


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