Some Zoe questions

Andy From Sligo · 23-01-2019 1:10am

unkel wrote: »

1 and 2 is to manually stick an automatic box into a certain gear (for towing, hill descending, etc.)

EVs don't have gears (well not more than one), so you can not stick the box into a certain gear (that is different than the one the box would pick itself)

ah right thanks I see now.

So, conversely because an EV has a high torque anyway it will sort out hill descending fine anyway?

interesting you say about towing, I wonder if anyone has ever had a Tow-Bar fitted to their EV and towed something like a caravan or trailer or something? - i suppose not, they havent got the power or ideal for it and not designed for it?

unkel · 23-01-2019 2:02am

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I wonder if anyone has ever had a Tow-Bar fitted to their EV and towed something like a caravan or trailer or something? - i suppose not, they havent got the power or ideal for it and not designed for it?

I suppose not. EVs don't really have the power to tow anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvk4fNxF0l4

Alkers · 23-01-2019 10:22am

Andy From Sligo wrote:

interesting you say about towing, I wonder if anyone has ever had a Tow-Bar fitted to their EV and towed something like a caravan or trailer or something? - i suppose not, they havent got the power or ideal for it and not designed for it?

Most EVs are (frustratingly) not type approved for towing

Andy From Sligo · 23-01-2019 3:11pm

for years I have been driving manual 5 gear cars and the last time I ever drove an automatic car was 30years ago when I worked at a place and they said 'here, take the boss's car its an automatic though' and i was absolutely crap in it. Of course i done that thing where you cannot get out of putting your left foot where the clutch is on the actual brake pedal on the automatic car.

So i am wondering how I would get on with the Zoe which is automatic? -

I have read though from people that once they have got used to driving an automatic car they never want to go back to ever driving a manual car ever again.

I also read that on automatic cars they have this thing called 'creeping' whereby as you take your foot off the brake pedal when the car is in 'drive' the car starts moving ever so slightly on the flat road even if you dont touch the accelerator pedal, that would feel weird. But then I read that on ICE cars do this because they idle and thats why - but i thought the zoe is electric and wouldnt idle like a petrol or diesel engine , but downloaded the Zoe manual and it sounds like it does the same thing even though it doesnt 'idle' as such.

beauf · 23-01-2019 3:21pm

Take one for a test drive. I did I though it was great. Its like a toy car to drive. Go, stop. Thats it.

I always tuck my clutch foot back, so I don't use it on instinct.

Only thing that puts me off is the high cost to buy one and getting one without battery rental.
Seems like less bang for buck than a leaf, at least in Ireland.

Otherwise I'd have one tomorrow or replace my petrol car.

Andy From Sligo · 23-01-2019 3:45pm

beauf wrote: »

Take one for a test drive. I did I though it was great. Its like a toy car to drive. Go, stop. Thats it.

I always tuck my clutch foot back, so I don't use it on instinct.

Only thing that puts me off is the high cost to buy one and getting one without battery rental.
Seems like less bang for buck than a leaf, at least in Ireland.

Otherwise I'd have one tomorrow or replace my petrol car.

Thanks, I have been trying to see if any of the Renault dealers down my part of the country have one sitting on their forecourt that I could take out for a test drive - no luck at the moment , they most probably could get one in for a test drive I supposed if I booked , but I would feel quite cheeky getting them to do that seeing as i wouldnt have the finances to buy brand new , the ones been looking at are used ones around 2013/2014 up in NI dealership and they do have them sitting on the forecourt ready for a test drive and ready to buy. looks like we will have to take a trip up to Belfast or newtownards to get to test drive and have a go in one ...

mikep · 23-01-2019 3:59pm

Beauf, what are you driving at the mo??
I have a Hyundai i30 and was thinking the Zoe might seem to small compared with the i30, most of my driving is on the M8.

beauf · 23-01-2019 4:08pm

mikep wrote: »

Beauf, what are you driving at the mo??
I have a Hyundai i30 and was thinking the Zoe might seem to small compared with the i30, most of my driving is on the M8.

I switch between two different hatches, supermini and MPV.

I've only been in a Zoe and i30 once and not for long. I would say the Zoe is slightly smaller but not a dramatic difference. The Zoe is bigger than it looks. But if feels more spartan, utilitarian than a i30 which is usually loaded with kit. The leaf feels more premium.

I could be wrong, I'm open to correction. Someone else here probably has more experience than my test drives.

Andy From Sligo · 24-01-2019 3:06pm

I'm just wondering how this battery rental thing works out?

How do they check how many Km's you have driven outside the rate you have paid for and charge you 5cent per Km ? - does it somehow total up every time you plug it into a ESB street charger or something?

also when buying a used Zoe what if the previous owner has gone past the km's they have paid for but sells the car on?

what if the previous owner has paid in full for 36months and then sells it on? - does that mean you could buy a used Zoe where there is some battery rental already paid up on it and doesnt need to be paid by the new owner?

thanks and sorry for all the questions

ELM327 · 24-01-2019 3:19pm

I've heard rumors that renault don't enforce the mileage limits on battery rental once you don't take the proverbial. The mileage limit is prorated between the two ownerships, and since it's administered by renault and the car is connected via sim card they know what the odometer is showing anyway.

Andy From Sligo · 24-01-2019 3:29pm

ELM327 wrote: »

I've heard rumors that renault don't enforce the mileage limits on battery rental once you don't take the proverbial. The mileage limit is prorated between the two ownerships, and since it's administered by renault and the car is connected via sim card they know what the odometer is showing anyway.

oh interesting - its connected by SIM card really? , how does that work then that sounds high tech

KCross · 24-01-2019 3:33pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I'm just wondering how this battery rental thing works out?

Battery rental is a really bad idea. Why are you considering battery rental cars?
Looking at the low upfront capital cost is foolhardy, imo. It will bite you later.

You could find it difficult(maybe impossible) to move the car on when you want to sell or find you are stuck to do a deal with renault which puts you in a bad bargaining position.

Or, if you keep it long term, you could find you are paying over the odds for what is then considered a low range car and paying indefintiely for it.

If you are set on a Zoe buy a battery owned one. I know they are harder to find, but find one.

Dont buy a battery rental car is my advice but each to their own.

beauf · 24-01-2019 3:43pm

My understanding, is there is no way (currently) to pay off the battery rental. It continues with the car.
It also includes brake down service and battery warranty.
The main issue is it almost completely cancels out any fuel saving. (€75 per month) So whats the point. (depends on your mileage).

Some will argue that it makes the car cheap to buy, which cancels out the the poor resale.
I think the price difference between owned and leased in UK is bigger so maybe it makes more sense.
In Ireland there doesn't seem to be as big a difference. So less worthwhile.
Some will say they are cheapest least old EV you can buy. Some truth in that.

The supply of battery owned cars used to be better. All that seems to be out there at the moment are leased battery cars.
Generally if a advert doesn't specify, assume its leased.

KCross · 24-01-2019 3:51pm

beauf wrote: »

My understanding, is there is no way (currently) to pay off the battery rental. It continues with the car.

I think the battery rental for both Leaf and Zoe is from the same company.. RCI.

It is currently possible to buyout the battery lease for the Leaf.... I know that for certain.

I assumed it would be possible for Zoe too but maybe Renault have a different set of rules. Not sure why they would, since they are effectively the same company.

beauf · 24-01-2019 4:02pm

Lots of talk about it, but when you chase the details there are none. Some say it can be done in France, or other countries, but there are never any details. Its just rumours or Chinese whispers.

Andy From Sligo · 24-01-2019 4:33pm

yes of course I hate the rental thing and i hate the idea of handing over that but what can you do, it makes the cars really cheap to buy Used . Look at the price of used Zoe's and the price of Used Leaf's a substantial difference. I never look at the long term of how much you have paid back you could have paid for one without rental and had loads of money left over.

They do include breakdown with the BR so that could be one plus - they are suppose to replace 'bad cells' with BR or full complete (refurbished?) Battery if it goes below a certain percentage.

That BR aside. I still think a Zoe EV (seems) to be a lot of kit you get for your money in a used car - what ICE car could you get with same money with all the features like cruise control, preheating, traction control bluetooth radio built in sat nav and loads of other electronics - and of course the 120 a year car tax and no VRT for an imported one. - I never have been a level headed person when it comes to trying to realise that in the end the car is going to work out more expensive and put me off buying something, i would rather not think about it and live for the day thats in it

mr chips · 24-01-2019 4:52pm

Disclaimer - I don't have an EV yet, but I follow developments keenly as I'm hoping to have one in the next couple of years or so. I would advise you to avoid the battery rental option - it would make less & less sense as time goes on, as any savings you would make against an ICE in terms of fuel costs would be significantly reduced by the lease cost (which you would have to keep paying even if you stopped using the car for some reason). Plus you would find it more and more difficult - if not impossible - to sell the car on when you're ready to change. You will see the occasional few Zoes out there which aren't being sold with a lease, but obviously the asking price for those is higher.

If you don't need the range of the Zoe every day, then in your shoes I'd be more likely to look at a 24kWh Leaf (which are available battery-owned for not much more than the cost of a battery-lease Zoe) or if your budget can stretch to it then a 30kWh Leaf. I'd also consider the likes of an i3, or maybe an Outlander/Ampera PHEV, i.e. cars which are all bigger and better equipped than the Zoe, but still old enough to have dropped to a more affordable price bracket. Unless your commute is much longer than average, the PHEVS will still offer most of the benefits of an EV in terms of running solely on electric the majority of the time, while still avoiding the range anxiety or charging delays that a Leaf might encounter on a longer trip.

If you're looking at importing, on UK Autotrader the lowest prices I've seen today are:
2011 Leaf 24kWh 56k miles £7295
2016 Leaf 30kWh 33k miles £11995
2014 Outlander PHEV 54k miles £12400
2013 i3 REx 50k miles £12495
2014 Ampera *160k miles* £6990
2012 Ampera 55k miles £9785

In terms of being used to driving a manual, I had the same issues as yourself the first day or two after we bought one - nearly headbutting the steering wheel when trying to depress the non-existent clutch pedal! As beauf says, just drive with your left foot tucked under the seat for a bit until you unlearn the habit. It doesn't take long and if you drive in town a lot, you'll soon find it's much handier than a manual.

Andy From Sligo · 24-01-2019 5:10pm

mr chips wrote: »

Disclaimer - I don't have an EV yet, but I follow developments keenly as I'm hoping to have one in the next couple of years or so. I would advise you to avoid the battery rental option - it would make less & less sense as time goes on, as any savings you would make against an ICE in terms of fuel costs would be significantly reduced by the lease cost (which you would have to keep paying even if you stopped using the car for some reason). Plus you would find it more and more difficult - if not impossible - to sell the car on when you're ready to change. You will see the occasional few Zoes out there which aren't being sold with a lease, but obviously the asking price for those is higher.

If you don't need the range of the Zoe every day, then in your shoes I'd be more likely to look at a 24kWh Leaf (which are available battery-owned for not much more than the cost of a battery-lease Zoe) or if your budget can stretch to it then a 30kWh Leaf. I'd also consider the likes of an i3, or maybe an Outlander/Ampera PHEV, i.e. cars which are all bigger and better equipped than the Zoe, but still old enough to have dropped to a more affordable price bracket. Unless your commute is much longer than average, the PHEVS will still offer most of the benefits of an EV in terms of running solely on electric the majority of the time, while still avoiding the range anxiety or charging delays that a Leaf might encounter on a longer trip.

If you're looking at importing, on UK Autotrader the lowest prices I've seen today are:
2011 Leaf 24kWh 56k miles £7295
2016 Leaf 30kWh 33k miles £11995
2014 Outlander PHEV 54k miles £12400
2013 i3 REx 50k miles £12495
2014 Ampera *160k miles* £6990
2012 Ampera 55k miles £9785

In terms of being used to driving a manual, I had the same issues as yourself the first day or two after we bought one - nearly headbutting the steering wheel when trying to depress the non-existent clutch pedal! As beauf says, just drive with your left foot tucked under the seat for a bit until you unlearn the habit. It doesn't take long and if you drive in town a lot, you'll soon find it's much handier than a manual.

thanks for all that info

- size is a factor with my mrs

- cannot stand the size of some of these newer cars (that claim to be compact cars) and parking and driving them. Even says she wouldnt even get on with the size of a Leaf compared to the size of the Zoe which seems the most compact out of all of them

KCross · 24-01-2019 5:12pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I never have been a level headed person when it comes to trying to realise that in the end the car is going to work out more expensive and put me off buying something, i would rather not think about it and live for the day thats in it

Not much more can be said than that!

Best of luck with it!

24-01-2019 5:13pm

Just to be clear on the Zoe battery rental.

The battery rental absolutely does not guarantee you a new battery under any circumstances.

All Renault are obliged to do is provide you with a battery at 75% capacity or above, so you shell out 6-7 K on battery rental and if your battery capacity drops to 75% they may only give you a reconditioned battery with around 80% capacity. Not worth it.

How much will you have spent on battery lease over 5,6,7 years ? save it and buy a Leaf 30 Kwh !

The only really good thing about Zoe is the brilliant AC charger which can charge at 22 Kw on an AC street charger !

A 30 Kwh Leaf is a good bit faster car, Zoe is very slow above about 60 Km/h.

Andy From Sligo · 24-01-2019 5:16pm

interestingly been reading up about this 'creeping' whereby as soon as you take your foot off brake in an automatic ICE car and are in Drive the car starts 'creeping' forward. i wouldnt like that personally, but there is no need to have the creep feature in an EV because the way EV's transmission are made , so in a TESLA car apparently there is a switch on the dash to turn the mode on or off and most drivers keep it off apparently.

Its only a setting in the EV car's firmware apparently but I dont think the likes of Renault Zoe or Nissan Leaf have the driver feature to turn it on or off?

mr chips · 24-01-2019 5:57pm

Even in an ICE with an auto gearbox, the "creep" feature is ideal for being in slow-moving traffic, e.g. at roadworks (especially on the M7 outside Naas!), but all you have to do is move the shifter to N or P and it won't happen.

Back to EVs - if it's a really small car your missus is after, there's always the VW e-Up ... otherwise, try to find a battery-owned Zoe!

Mancomb Seepgood · 24-01-2019 6:00pm

I bought a used Zoe,battery owned a couple of months ago.I got it from Phil Fitzgerald at Electric Autos in Naas who is usually pretty good tracking down the car you want in the UK. Battery owned Zoe's are harder to find but they do exist and may save a lot of trouble when you want to sell it on.

24-01-2019 6:14pm

I personally don't like the creep function either, the i3 does not do this but to be honest I wouldn't let me put it off buying a leaf or zoe.

Andy From Sligo · 24-01-2019 6:18pm

mr chips wrote: »

Even in an ICE with an auto gearbox, the "creep" feature is ideal for being in slow-moving traffic, e.g. at roadworks (especially on the M7 outside Naas!), but all you have to do is move the shifter to N or P and it won't happen.

Back to EVs - if it's a really small car your missus is after, there's always the VW e-Up ... otherwise, try to find a battery-owned Zoe!

not even looked but alas even a used VW e-up or a battery owned Zoe will be out of our budget we will only have around the 6,000eur to spend on a new (newer car) than we have.

beauf · 24-01-2019 6:22pm

mr chips wrote: »

...Back to EVs - if it's a really small car your missus is after, there's always the VW e-Up ... otherwise, try to find a battery-owned Zoe!

The VW e-Up seem to be very rare and expensive. Someone on boards has one.

I could find 5 for sale in the UK. Very much a niche product. Pity.

Gumbo · 24-01-2019 6:31pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

interestingly been reading up about this 'creeping' whereby as soon as you take your foot off brake in an automatic ICE car and are in Drive the car starts 'creeping' forward. i wouldnt like that personally, but there is no need to have the creep feature in an EV because the way EV's transmission are made , so in a TESLA car apparently there is a switch on the dash to turn the mode on or off and most drivers keep it off apparently.

Its only a setting in the EV car's firmware apparently but I dont think the likes of Renault Zoe or Nissan Leaf have the driver feature to turn it on or off?

I personally think your reading too much into all of this.

Go test drive some of them and see what they are like in real life and not on google.

Andy From Sligo · 24-01-2019 6:32pm

beauf wrote: »

The VW e-Up seem to be very rare and expensive. Someone on boards has one.

I could find 5 for sale in the UK. Very much a niche product. Pity.

nice looking one

Andy From Sligo · 24-01-2019 6:36pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I personally don't like the creep function either, the i3 does not do this but to be honest I wouldn't let me put it off buying a leaf or zoe.

I wonder if it takes any power away from the Traction battery when it acts in this way , or does it just power the motor(s) when you just take your foot off the brake I wonder?

Andy From Sligo · 24-01-2019 6:38pm

kceire wrote: »

I personally think your reading too much into all of this.

Go test drive some of them and see what they are like in real life and not on google.

your right - i am working on it, and the wife really wants to test drive it. she might hate it, except for there are none nearby at the moment

Some Zoe questions

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