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Excellent Experience with Budapest Dentist
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Out of interest what is the going rate of a crown in Ireland these days? Is the 1000 the fitzgme up there said the norm or was he/were you just giving any old number for the example? And is there any way of getting them insured? Guaranteed? I wouldn't mind getting some work done in Ireland if I got the same guarantee I get abroad.0
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Absolutely agree 100% with OP.If reporting an unqualified success after 1 year is premature-how about 4 years?I had it done 4 years ago-an I also report it an unqualified success.I'm not a dentist and have absolutely no vested interest but, in fairness, is reporting extensive dental treatment in Budapest an " unqualified success " just one year on not a bit premature? For me to even consider going to Budapest I'd want a referral from someone who had treatment ten years ago at the place I was going to ! Even if I had such a referral I wouldn't go abroad for dental treatment as I would have genuine concerns about follow up care if I had subsequent problems.
The key to it is do your research and seek the advise of those who have done it-and btw the people I dealt with have after care arrangements with dentists here-I have not needed it.0 -
Out of interest what is the going rate of a crown in Ireland these days? Is the 1000 the fitzgme up there said the norm or was he/were you just giving any old number for the example? And is there any way of getting them insured? Guaranteed? I wouldn't mind getting some work done in Ireland if I got the same guarantee I get abroad.
No the average would be 600 - 900 euro depending on quality, dentist, location in the mouth etc. I was trying to put a nice high figure on it as an example. Guarantees are a bit vague on something that supposed to last 10 years or more. I refuse to give guarantees, I am not a car salesman. Does a surgeon guarantee your new hip? Does a GP guarantee that treatment will defiantly work. Short guarantees for 2-3-5 years are total rubbish. Read the small print, that does not cover any of the common complications such as root canal. Also there are usually proviso's such as "6 month checkup required at our clinic" as as the poster above says he has never gone back. Also many of the patient I have seen have gone back with totally inadequite work and told that they needed to brush their teeth better and everything was their fault.
Morris Code - glad to hear your happy. However 4 years is early days also, quality will shine at the 7-10 year mark, there the people I see coming to me with stuff starting to fail. Small jobs are often ok, however they are not the economical ones to have done abroad, its the big jobs, often teeth are joined together in big groups. This ensures that everything stays put for a number of years. However everything rots out from underneath and retreatment is a nightmare.
Check out these threads for a examples of the miserable cases I have seen, this case here for instance was going around telling everyone for a year or more what a great job she had done.......:rolleyes:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2055628532
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...6058173&page=2
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2055998870
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2055998870
http://www.dentist.ie/resources/jida...A_Winter07.pdf
http://www.gdc-uk.org/NR/rdonlyres/9...lcareFINAL.pdf
http://www.ada.org/3029.aspx?currentTab=10 -
Thank u for your response and concern-I haven't got the slightest interest in reading about the miserable cases to which u refer.:DAdan Petite Crate wrote: »No the average would be 600 - 900 euro depending on quality, dentist, location in the mouth etc. I was trying to put a nice high figure on it as an example. Guarantees are a bit vague on something that supposed to last 10 years or more. I refuse to give guarantees, I am not a car salesman. Does a surgeon guarantee your new hip? Does a GP guarantee that treatment will defiantly work. Short guarantees for 2-3-5 years are total rubbish. Read the small print, that does not cover any of the common complications such as root canal. Also there are usually proviso's such as "6 month checkup required at our clinic" as as the poster above says he has never gone back. Also many of the patient I have seen have gone back with totally inadequite work and told that they needed to brush their teeth better and everything was their fault.
Morris Code - glad to hear your happy. However 4 years is early days also, quality will shine at the 7-10 year mark, there the people I see coming to me with stuff starting to fail. Small jobs are often ok, however they are not the economical ones to have done abroad, its the big jobs, often teeth are joined together in big groups. This ensures that everything stays put for a number of years. However everything rots out from underneath and retreatment is a nightmare.
Check out these threads for a examples of the miserable cases I have seen, this case here for instance was going around telling everyone for a year or more what a great job she had done.......:rolleyes:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2055628532
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...6058173&page=2
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2055998870
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2055998870
http://www.dentist.ie/resources/jida...A_Winter07.pdf
http://www.gdc-uk.org/NR/rdonlyres/9...lcareFINAL.pdf
http://www.ada.org/3029.aspx?currentTab=1
Should I run into any difficulties in the future-my first port of call would be the people I went to in Hungary-I was hugely impressed with their whole state of the art service.
Oh and BTW in the event that I do run into any difficulty I will be honest enough to post on here.
Oh and forgot to mention that I have a Brother in Law in US who is a retired dentist-he could find no fault with the work.0 -
Morris Code wrote: »I haven't got the slightest interest in reading about the miserable cases to which u refer..
Nor do I in your recommendation but maybe people doing research into this might. We are building up quite a bit of evidence hear on the DI forum, its getting harder and harder to ignore.0 -
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Adan Petite Crate wrote: »Nor do I in your recommendation but maybe people doing research into this might. We are building up quite a bit of evidence hear on the DI forum, its getting harder and harder to ignore.
Where exactly did I make a recommendation??
Thing is lets face it u just don't want to hear about the successful cases -just the "miserable"ones.
I will leave u at it-Cheers0 -
Morris Code wrote: »I had it done 4 years ago-an I also report it an unqualified success.
Sound like a recommendation for dental tourism to me. I know there must be some success stories out there, however my experience is that for every success story there is a bad one also. You pay your money and take your chance. As for not wanting to hear success stories, I have yet to see or hear of a verified one. Quality is not so obvious for people who have not had advanced dentistry before.0 -
€6,000 for Overdenture case?????
Wow, that was not cheap, if anyone has more quotes like that from abroad why don't you post them on here before you travel and see how much you might save by not traveling?
Bryan0 -
I can see both pros and cons of having extensive work done in cheaper countries abroad such as Hungary. There are clear benefits to having work done in Ireland, not least ease of geographical access to the dentist who compeleted the work, etc.
That said dental tourism is not surprising considering we are part of a free market comprising the European Union (including Hungary).
I presume dental patients who are treated in Hunagry are protected under law as are other consumers of goods or services within the EU:
"Under the European Directive on certain aspects of the sale of consumer goods and associated guarantees (1999/44/EC), which was passed into law in January 2003 (S.I. 11 of 2003) in Ireland, all consumers purchasing goods in any EU Member State are entitled to a basic set of consumer rights. The existence of a single European market gives access to a wider range of products and services at competitive prices."
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/consumer_protection/consumer_rights/consumer_rights_and_cross_border_shopping_in_the_european_union.html
It also has to be accepted that dentists abroad are often able to offer more competitive pricing than dentists in Ireland. Consumers of dental services will continue to travel abroad, as to many customers, dental services are price sensitive. Irish dentists need to deal with that competition, the same as other businesses operating in different market places do.
Ireland's Competition Authority published the following report in 2007:"EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
1. Competition in dental services is restricted and discouraged by an outdated system of regulation for dentists and related professions. The number of dentists and orthodontists being trained in Ireland has not kept pace with the growing demand for dental services. Consumers in Ireland do not have the benefits of the competition between dentists and a range of other qualified oral health professions that exists in other countries.
2. As a result, the prices consumers pay for dental services are not as competitive as they could be and consumers
do not have the full range of information and options available to them to purchase appropriate dental services
for their needs.
3. The price of private dental services in Ireland continues to rise at a rate above the general rate of health services
inflation. Although 80% of the population of Ireland is entitled to a free examination and clean annually, only 44%
of people in Ireland visit the dentist at least once a year. Some consumers travel to other countries for certain
dental services.
4. The regulatory system governing the dental profession in Ireland urgently needs reform. This is because
competition in dental services has been seriously undermined by inappropriate rules and regulations that
promote an outdated model of delivering oral health services:
• Consumers in Ireland have to visit a dentist for all their dental services (at least as an intermediary). In other
countries, consumers can access basic dental services directly from other qualified oral health professionals
- dental hygienists and clinical dental technicians;
• Dentists are prevented from competing through normal methods of competition such as advertising prices
and offering discounts;
• The restrictions on advertising deny consumers access to basic information about the availability of dental
services in their area which would help them to make informed decisions about their oral health;
• Dentists are unable to promote awareness of their practices and their services and this discourages them
from innovating. They are also at a competitive disadvantage vis-à-vis dentists in Northern Ireland and other
countries who can advertise freely here;
• Lack of transparency in prices reduces competitive pressure on dentists and discourages consumers from
purchasing routine or preventive dental services;
• Dentists traditionally work as sole practitioners, sometimes with other dentists as associates or as
employees in their practices. Competition between corporate bodies of dentists would have many benefits
for dentists and consumers, by improving their access to capital and business skills. These benefits include:
cost savings, ability to afford locations that are more convenient for many consumers, flexible working
arrangements, longer opening hours, and checks and balances on the quality of each dentist’s services (put
in place to maintain the corporate body’s reputation).
5. The regulatory system also offers limited protection for consumers:
• The Dental Council does not have strong powers to pursue those dental technicians practising dentistry
illegally in Ireland;
“Poor Prescriptions”, Combat Poverty Agency, June 2007.
See
“Irish are top dental tourists”, Sunday Business Post, 12th August 2007.
Dental technicians make dentures for sale to dentists and repair dentures for dentists and for members of the public. However, a number of dental technicians fit and sell new dentures directly to the public, thus practising dentistry illegally.• more consumers availing of dental services and thus better oral health in the population."[/LEFT]dentists6. Another problem is the lack of training of sufficient dentists and orthodontists to meet demand. In particular, the training of orthodontists in Ireland has been “stop-start” and this has led to a shortage of orthodontists in the public sector.[/FONT]
• The Council must wait until damage is done to a patient before it can act against a dentist. There are no regular checks on the standard of dental services provided by dentists.
7. In this report, the Competition Authority makes 12 recommendations to address the competition problemsidentified in the dental profession. Implementing these recommendations will lead to a modern system of
regulation to ensure:
• that the health and safety of the public is protected;
• that consumers are more aware of their options and the prices for dental services;
• more choice for consumers regarding when, where, and from whom, they get dental services;
• better use of the skills and very expensive training of dentists and orthodontists;
• a sufficient supply of dentists, orthodontists and related professionals;
• value for money in dentists’ services;
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The price of dentistry has dropped dramatically in the 5 years of recession since that report. Also advertising and most of the point have been addressed,you might as well quote the bible.
However the biggest flaw is that people don't "consume" dentistry, its healthcare where not only is there a product or service, but that service differs between each individual dentist depending on skill, training, time etc. There is a huge difference in dental treatment philosophy in different areas as can be seen in this thread. You rent a dentists you don't buy dental work.
Hence a crown on place A is not comparable to place B. People try and make economic reasoning like they are buying a dishwasher. They find out what they want, go online and find the cheapest place that sells it because its the same everywhere is it not. Thats not the way it works in healthcare. If you needed a hip operation you would try find the best surgeon to do the job, not the cheapest. The thing you are buying is the surgeon not the false hip. If you want a quality portrait painted you find a good painter not a cheap painter, you buying the skill not the canvas and paint. People on this forum, and in consumer circles try and trade items of dental work like commodities. They see that more items is better value. They think there is not quality differences, they assume that biological systems can be guaranteed, they assume that somebody charging more is making more money, they assume that faster is better, they assume any warning about the obvious folly of availing of healthcare far away and having complex treatment in ridiculously short periods of time are untrue, more because they don't want to believe them than the arguments themselves make no sense.
Yes there Cons and a Pro. The only pro is cost, everything else is in the Con category.0 -
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Adan Petite Crate wrote: »However the biggest flaw is that people don't "consume" dentistry, its healthcare where not only is there a product or service, but that service differs between each individual dentist depending on skill, training, time etc. There is a huge difference in dental treatment philosophy in different areas as can be seen in this thread. You rent a dentists you don't buy dental work.
Hence a crown on place A is not comparable to place B. People try and make economic reasoning like they are buying a dishwasher. They find out what they want, go online and find the cheapest place that sells it because its the same everywhere is it not. Thats not the way it works in healthcare. If you needed a hip operation you would try find the best surgeon to do the job, not the cheapest. The thing you are buying is the surgeon not the false hip. If you want a quality portrait painted you find a good painter not a cheap painter, you buying the skill not the canvas and paint. People on this forum, and in consumer circles try and trade items of dental work like commodities. They see that more items is better value. They think there is not quality differences, they assume that biological systems can be guaranteed, they assume that somebody charging more is making more money, they assume that faster is better, they assume any warning about the obvious folly of availing of healthcare far away and having complex treatment in ridiculously short periods of time are untrue, more because they don't want to believe them than the arguments themselves make no sense.
Yes there Cons and a Pro. The only pro is cost, everything else is in the Con category.
You are completely incorrect - people most certainly are consumers of dentistry and dentists are service providers in a market place.
We live in a free market capitalist economy and unless you are advocating protectionism for dentistry as a profession you are wrong.
As I said I can see the pros and cons of having dentistry abroad - some good some bad.
I can also see the benefit of dentistry in Ireland and would state that we have many very professional and capable dentists here who deserve the money they are paid for the excellent service they provide.
Personally, I think dentists are highly skilled and I don't think the prices most charge here in Ireland are unreasonable.0 -
Christ I give up..........
Here is why healthcare is not a consumer product
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_asymmetry
If you understand great, if you don't then you actually prove the point.0 -
Adan Petite Crate wrote: »Christ I give up..........
Here is why healthcare is not a consumer product
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_asymmetry
If you understand great, if you don't then you actually prove the point.
Information asymmetry is very clearly a feature of the market for dental services, dentists obviously know more about dentistry that their patients, and the patients do not have the time or the training to acquire that information. Left to its own devices this results in market failure - the failure to deliver services (or goods) in an efficient manner.
The remedy for information asymmetry is independent regulation of the delivery of services (and here we're talking about market conduct rather that clinical standards), and the provision of appropriate consumer information in plain English (as opposed to disclosure, which is an entirely different concept). That is essentially what was recommended in the Competition Authority report cited by circ in post #42. Many of the key recommendations have not been addressed.0 -
€6,000 for Overdenture case?????
Wow, that was not cheap, if anyone has more quotes like that from abroad why don't you post them on here before you travel and see how much you might save by not traveling?
Bryan
If you read over all the posts in this thread you will not find anyone, myself included, looking for or recommending cheap treatments. I have only said that I was happy with the price. I have not compared it to the prices that Irish dentists might charge for the same work. I notice that the dentists that post on this forum appear to be reluctant to post the prices that they would have charged.0 -
Hillmanhunter1 wrote: »the provision of appropriate consumer information in plain English
I and the other dentists on here have been giving out appropriate consumer information in English for years. However this thread proves that people only take the advice they want to take.
Clinical Standards are what needs to be regulated, not market standards in fact its the only thing that really matters. Also some form of pan European way to get legal recourse against malpractice is required. The Bologna Process acknowledges that academic standards are not the same across europe and need to be standardized.
I suppose what been show in this thread is that the OP ignored the advice on here, did his own research and went off (as is his right of course). He received a technically poor and outdated treatment plan in a short space of time for an excessive cost, which has not address any of his underlying issues. Anyone who want the details of where he got this service can PM him.0 -
Hillmanhunter1 wrote: »If you read over all the posts in this thread you will not find anyone, myself included, looking for or recommending cheap treatments. I have only said that I was happy with the price. I have not compared it to the prices that Irish dentists might charge for the same work. I notice that the dentists that post on this forum appear to be reluctant to post the prices that they would have charged.
14-04-2010, 01:07 #5
Hillmanhunter1
From what I can tell the cost of the work that I need done would be around €20k in Ireland.
I will have this work done abroad, and at a fraction of the cost.0 -
Hillmanhunter1 wrote: »Information asymmetry is very clearly a feature of the market for dental services, dentists obviously know more about dentistry that their patients, and the patients do not have the time or the training to acquire that information. Left to its own devices this results in market failure - the failure to deliver services (or goods) in an efficient manner.
The remedy for information asymmetry is independent regulation of the delivery of services (and here we're talking about market conduct rather that clinical standards), and the provision of appropriate consumer information in plain English (as opposed to disclosure, which is an entirely different concept). That is essentially what was recommended in the Competition Authority report cited by circ in post #42. Many of the key recommendations have not been addressed.
Information asymmetry is a feature of any industry where the main governing feature is that a 5 year tertiary education is required to provide services. No amount of laymans language is ever going to change that.
You cannot apply normal market rules to an information asymmetry. When you apply the concept of supply and demand, cost becomes a determinant of outcome. As prices fall, quality falls because the provider still wants to make the same income. See UK NHS for an example of this. Furthermore, if you want to extend this idea you introduce the concept of corporatisation which also reduces quality because cost is the primary determinant of treatment provision. You cannot rely on the altruistic nature of the corporate body and the dentists engaged by same at below market value to provide the same level of service as they would do under a private fee-for-service set up.
The dental market already equilibrates itself significantly. What is poorly understood and not mentioned at all in the above report is the cost of providing the service. If costs of providing the service stay the same and costs of purchasing the service continue to go down, the dentist will need to provide more service items to maintain income. That means that less time is spent on each item and quality suffers. If you ask the dentist to take a cut in income he will emigrate (as I have done) or you will see a fall in numbers of people going in to dentistry which results in a reduction in the quality of graduate coming out of tertiary education. All in all, not a pretty picture.
I might point out that a lot of dentists have been fairly altruistic in the recent past maintaining their support of the medical card scheme, for little thanks and plenty of abuse.
I do agree that some market regulation is required, but if you want an application of free-market economics (which first is probably not wholly appropriate to an information asymmetry) you may be surprised to find that prices go up. I don't believe that some form of free market is operating in dentistry in Ireland. We've seen a reduction in demand and a corresponding reduction in prices and workforce. What you're looking for is total transparency which also does not exist in a free market. When was the last time you saw MacDonalds putting up on their menu how much it costs them to make the burgers? If you think you can get a burger cheaper, then buy it cheaper. Nobody's stopping you. MacDonalds might be more expensive than the local chipper over the road (unlikely) but is the quality of ingredients and standards of hygiene the same? Is everyone paid a fair and legal wage? Does the local chipper operate in a county with a lower cost economy in general (lower wages etc)? Are you really comparing like with like? Everybody thinks so, but only the guy with the knowledge of the industry knows the truth. That is an information asymmetry. Would I as a dentist ever have my teeth or my families teeth done (hypothetically) in Budapest or Ankara - hell no. And I'm on the knowledgable side of the asymmetry.0 -
14-04-2010, 01:07 #5
Hillmanhunter1
From what I can tell the cost of the work that I need done would be around €20k in Ireland.
I will have this work done abroad, and at a fraction of the cost.
I'm quite happy to acknowledge that the estimate that I made in April 2010 is not relevant to the treatment that I received at the end of 2010/start of 2011. I had originally thought that implants might be a possibility and my estimate, at that time, was based on that assumption. As I have said earlier in this thread I was not considered suitable for implants because of gum disease, and so a different treatment plan was recommended and implemented.
I have posted details of that treatment plan and the prices that I paid. In relation to that treatment plan I therefore assume you will agree that I have not compared it to the prices that Irish dentists might charge for the same work.0 -
Big_G nice post there, however I think it will fall on the deaf ears of the knowledgeable ignorant. See my post here to see if thats you here
Hillmanhunter1 I am appalled you were told that, gum disease (periodontal disease) is a contraindication to dental implants, it most certainly is not, you were not considered suitable for implant because there wasn't enough time during your brief trips or your budget wouldn't allow them. Dental implant were invented for people like yourself. The truth is you have lost a bunch of bone since the extractions that could have been used to stabilise implants. I know this is all new to you and you cannot be expected to now all these things, however the problem is you have assumed that the dentist has your best interest at heart. This is the same old story I see again and again and again, its become so normal that I can predict it as soon as a thread starts. And look here we are.0 -
BigG
With respect, the contents of your last post comprises a convoluted and spurious application of economic theory that has little if any credibility; other than to imply that you may be trying to confuse the reader - or to convince yourself - into believing that the profession of dentistry somehow isn’t, or shouldn’t be, subject to market forces in a capitalist society?
From what I have read on this forum there is a clear resistance to change among dentistry in Ireland and protectionism of the profession is preferred over marketing when faced with changing consumer demands at home and competition from abroad.
The irony is that such attempts at protectionism by Irish dentistry is actually the best marketing tool for competitors abroad.
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Adan Petite Crate wrote: »Big_G nice post there, however I think it will fall on the deaf ears of the knowledgeable ignorant. See my post here to see if thats you here.With respect, the contents of your last post comprises a convoluted and spurious application of economic theory.......
Q.E.D. Read this thread before giving so much of your effort to defending these companies, http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056058173&page=20 -
Hillmanhunter1 wrote: »Information asymmetry is very clearly a feature of the market for dental services, dentists obviously know more about dentistry that their patients, and the patients do not have the time or the training to acquire that information. Left to its own devices this results in market failure - the failure to deliver services (or goods) in an efficient manner.
The remedy for information asymmetry is independent regulation of the delivery of services (and here we're talking about market conduct rather that clinical standards), and the provision of appropriate consumer information in plain English (as opposed to disclosure, which is an entirely different concept). That is essentially what was recommended in the Competition Authority report cited by circ in post #42. Many of the key recommendations have not been addressed.
You make an interesting point about 'appropriate consumer information in plain English' Hillmanhunter.
On that note, I cast an eye, over the Dental Council's code of conduct reference to public communications and it outlines the criteria for dentists regarding their communications with the public, in all forms:"Dental Council Statement on Code of Practice pertaining to Public Relations and Communications
[FONT=Calibri,Calibri][FONT=Calibri,Calibri]You are respectfully reminded of your obligations and responsibilities under the Code of Practice Pertaining to Public Relations and Communications. All information or other publicity material aimed at the public regarding dental services must be legal, decent, honest and truthful and must not have the potential to mislead the public or impugn the professional reputation or integrity of colleagues. Registered practitioners must avoid statements or claims which could reasonably be interpreted as creating an unjustified expectation on the part of the public of the benefits of any particular treatments. The Council recommends that practitioners publish their Dental Council registration number on promotional material. "
http://www.dentalcouncil.ie/g_publicrelations.php
It is clear that there are strict guidleines regarding all such public communications that must be adhered to.
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BigG
With respect, the contents of your last post comprises a convoluted and spurious application of economic theory that has little if any credibility; other than to imply that you may be trying to confuse the reader - or to convince yourself - into believing that the profession of dentistry somehow isn’t, or shouldn’t be, subject to market forces in a capitalist society?
From what I have read on this forum there is a clear resistance to change among dentistry in Ireland and protectionism of the profession is preferred over marketing when faced with changing consumer demands at home and competition from abroad.
The irony is that such attempts at protectionism by Irish dentistry is actually the best marketing tool for competitors abroad.
It is a cynical and unfounded view you have. Irish dentists have the interests of their patients first and foremost and have been horsecollared by legislation that was probably out of date when it was enacted in 1985.
The UK government has commissioned significant research into the effect that external meddling ie the NHS has had on the dental market in the uk. The NHS has significantly driven down price to the point where quality care cannot be provided.
What you are seeking is protection for the public. You feel that there is a conspiracy within the dental market to keep prices high yet you readily admit that you are not qualified to determine what is a successful outcome. This the problem with external market meddling is that is done with only cost in mind and not outcome. If cost is the only determinant in the market, the market also fails because quality suffers eg UKNHS.
It is a self defeating statement to say that the market should be regulated more. The more a market is regulated the less price can fluctuate. For a man who knows economic principles, you surely should understand this one? Examples - taxis, gas and electric etc
The more intervention in a market the more prices and the cost of doing business goes up - see health insurance. For an examples of a lightly regulated market where price fluctuates continuously see air travel etc. As cost seems to be your only concern, you should worry about regulation.
Either you believe in the free market where competition drives down price or you believe in regulation where price control is by legal entities. I submit the former results in either substandard care or bottoming out of prices - I think Irish dentistry is already heading to the latter.
If you are worried about the patient being protected we already have the dental council (dentists will soon be in a minority there) and the courts to protect the patient. What more do you want? If you don't think you are getting a fair price you can ask what are the costs involved, I think you will be surprised. I believe fitzgeme already itemises his fees like you might see at a garage. Very transparent. I think that is the way forward.
I'm sorry you feel my economics are spurious but you cannot control the dental market on price alone. The only people who can determine what is the standard of care are dentists. We may be a bit lenient with our colleagues in that regard from time to time. Several large studies commissioned by the uk dept of health show that knowledge asymmetries cannot have normal economic rules applied. Tighter regulation results in higher costs and narrower margins which leads to both decreasing quality and loss of access. You know it makes sense.0 -
Cant find the Hungarian Dental Council Statement on Code of Practice pertaining to Public Relations and Communications whys that?0
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What does the Irish Dental Council do to protect patients? It is comprised of dentists with only two lay members and thus self-regulation exists for the dental profession which is as about as good as no regulation from the consumer/patient perspective. Any action the Dental Council takes is reactionary.
Fitzgeme, you refer to the code of practice which exists for Irish dentists but you could not find one for Hungary. However if a dentist does not comply with the codes of practice, what sanctions apply for Irish dentists? The Dental Council seem to have few powers and a reluctance to exercise the limited powers that exist. Surely that is not in the patient/consumer interest.0 -
Adan Petite Crate wrote: »Cant find the Hungarian Dental Council Statement on Code of Practice pertaining to Public Relations and Communications whys that?
http://www.mok.hu/docview.aspx?r_id=3334303133&web_id=&mode=1
Isn't Google (and Google Translate) wonderful all the same!
Section 26 seems to be the relevant section, and Google Translate makes as much sense of it as translation engines normally do. The point is however that it exists - dentistry is a regulated profession in Hungary.0 -
What does the Irish Dental Council do to protect patients? It is comprised of dentists with only two lay members and thus self-regulation exists for the dental profession which is as about as good as no regulation from the consumer/patient perspective. Any action the Dental Council takes is reactionary.
Fitzgeme, you refer to the code of practice which exists for Irish dentists but you could not find one for Hungary. However if a dentist does not comply with the codes of practice, what sanctions apply for Irish dentists? The Dental Council seem to have few powers and a reluctance to exercise the limited powers that exist. Surely that is not in the patient/consumer interest.
Lexa,
It would appear that the Dental Council are subject to Section 66 of the Dentists Act 1985:
"Professional Behaviour and Dental Ethics:
INTRODUCTION
Section 66 of the Dentists Act 1985 requires the Dental Council to give guidance to the dental profession generally on all matters relating to ethical conduct and behaviour."
This is an interesting point:
"The dentist shall not make gratuitous comments of a derogatory or disparaging nature on the services or treatment of other members of the profession or on the profession in general. There is a considerable scope in dentistry for genuine differences of clinical opinion and a dentist must not criticise the treatment of a colleague solely on the grounds that it was not the treatment he/she would have provided."
Big G
You have made a number of assumptions and innacurate comments about what I supposedly believe in or I am advocating - none of which I have ever made, so I'm not sure where you are getting them from?
I was merely making an observation about how the dentistry profession in Ireland reacts to threats to it from external competitiors and how it would need to meet conusmer demands at home to counter act those threats.
Your economic argument is insubstantial to say the least.
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This is all so far off topic I don't know what to do with this thread.
Also the ethical guidlines state that:
"The dentist should assume a responsible role in the community. He/she should endeavour to promote measures to improve the health and especially the dental health of the community." and also "When a dentist comes across treatment which in his/her opinion is so unsatisfactory that it must be carried out again he/she has an obligation, both legal and ethical, to so inform the patient." so reading between the lines we are ethically obliged to inform patients about bad work and also the community of the possible dangers to their dental health in dental tourism.
Another poster went down the exact same line of reasoning as you trying to beat the irish dentist over the head with their own ethical guidelines, without any acknowledgement that the patient do not have theses protection when they travel for dentistry. The link you provided may well hungarian dental council stuff however from what I have seen and posted on boards, the enforcement have had a number of patient try take legal action only to find that its practical impossible.
I suggest you read this thread, its the same one I linked before, it goes over these exact same arguments, quoting the exact same reports and guidelines and making the exact same points.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056058173&page=2
specifically this post and the post leading up to it.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70718182&postcount=73
Now please stay on topic, calling a spade a spade is not unethical, to not highlight this would be. Be more concerned with the unethical treatment the OP on this thread received.
Hilmanhunter thank for the link, I cannot see the section where it says its ok to lie to patients about their treatment options as they did with you. Are you at all concerned with that? or is it more important to prove me wrong?0 -
Adan Petite Crate wrote: »Another poster went down the exact same line of reasoning as you trying to beat the irish dentist over the head with their own ethical guidelines, without any acknowledgement that the patient do not have theses protection when they travel for dentistry. The link you provided may well hungarian dental council stuff however from what I have seen and posted on boards, the enforcement have had a number of patient try take legal action only to find that its practical impossible.[URL="http://"][/URL]
If that is directed at me then it would be innacurate, I merely posted information in response to other posters' comments.
There has been no attempt in any respect by me to 'beat the Irish dentist over the head with their own ethical guidelines' as can be seen from my posts. Why would I?
EU law dictates that consumers of products or services in any EU country have the same rights to redress from abroad as they would in their home country. I haven't reviewed that legislation, but I presume it covers dental services as much as any other service.0 -
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OK folks, I'm going to lock this thread for now and take a look at it and all the reported posts. it'll be a day or so before I come back to it, as real life is quite hectic at the moment, so please bear with me.0
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