Excellent Experience with Budapest Dentist

sam34

howdy folks.

i've deleted some posts and un-deleted others, and i'm re-opening the thread.

the discussion took a few twists and turns, to say the least, and its certainly been an interesting read, so i've left a lot of posts up. however, we've strayed wildly off topic, so can we try steer again back towards the original post please.

Squiggle

Morris Code wrote: »

Absolutely agree 100% with OP.If reporting an unqualified success after 1 year is premature-how about 4 years?I had it done 4 years ago-an I also report it an unqualified success.
The key to it is do your research and seek the advise of those who have done it-and btw the people I dealt with have after care arrangements with dentists here-I have not needed it.

Each to their own. For me it's laughable that the OP, who is not a dentist, comes on here after just one year and describes his extensive dental work in Hungary as an "unqualified success ". :rolleyes:

circ

Squiggle wrote: »

Each to their own. For me it's laughable that the OP, who is not a dentist, comes on here after just one year and describes his extensive dental work in Hungary as an "unqualified success ". :rolleyes:

I think most dentists would concede that their patient would certainly be the most qualified person to confirm whether or not the work they carried out was an unqaulified success or not.

The opening poster is clearly happy with the extensive work they had abroad, at the end of the day it is their teeth and mouth, so they are best placed to comment on that.

I think most reasonable people would agree with me.

circ

Hillmanhunter1,

Just out of curiosity how was your experience abroad regarding communication? Were the dentists who treated you very good English speakers? Was it an issue at all?

I know myself, I'd be slightly concerned that something might get lost in translation and I'd end up with teeth like Jaws out James Bond:eek:. That said I appreciate that many people in Europe have very good English.

georgieporgy

circ wrote: »

I think most dentists would concede that their patient would certainly be the most qualified person to confirm whether or not the work they carried out was an unqaulified success or not.

The opening poster is clearly happy with the extensive work they had abroad, at the end of the day it is their teeth and mouth, so they are best placed to comment on that.

I think most reasonable people would agree with me.

If that were true then why do people go to a dentist for a check up? Most of my patients don't even know that they don't clean there teeth properly. Issues like underprepping or overprepping a tooth, overhangs, open margins, poor contours of restorations, impropper interproximal contacts, occlusion, residual caries , iatrogenic pulp damage, etc etc would be double dutch to most people.

i agree with your second paragraph ok. He is happy with what he got and from what he says it's a big improvement on his previous condition.

Squiggle

circ wrote: »

I think most dentists would concede that their patient would certainly be the most qualified person to confirm whether or not the work they carried out was an unqaulified success or not.

The opening poster is clearly happy with the extensive work they had abroad, at the end of the day it is their teeth and mouth, so they are best placed to comment on that.

I think most reasonable people would agree with me.

I think most reasonably intelligent people could distinguish between someone being happy with extensive dental work after just one year and that person who has said, " Dentistry may not be my strong suit ", not been qualified to describe the work done as an unqualified success in a clinical sense.

circ

georgieporgy wrote: »

If that were true then why do people go to a dentist for a check up? Most of my patients don't even know that they don't clean there teeth properly. Issues like underprepping or overprepping a tooth, overhangs, open margins, poor contours of restorations, impropper interproximal contacts, occlusion, residual caries , iatrogenic pulp damage, etc etc would be double dutch to most people.

i agree with your second paragraph ok. He is happy with what he got and from what he says it's a big improvement on his previous condition.

I wouldn't dispute what you say about the indepth technical words that the profession may use, however surely you would agree that the ultimate test of any such actual work is the patient's personal comfort and satisfaction?

circ

Squiggle wrote: »

I think most reasonably intelligent people could distinguish between someone being happy with extensive dental work after just one year and that person who has said, " Dentistry may not be my strong suit ", not been qualified to describe the work done as an unqualified success in a clinical sense.

What do you think of dentists judging dental work over the Net by viewing photographs?

I prefer to get my info from the horses mouth so to speak, the evidence tends to be more accurate.

Oral Surgeon

circ wrote: »

however surely you would agree that the ultimate test of any such actual work is the patient's personal comfort and satisfaction?

I don't agree with that

Oral Surgeon

circ wrote: »

What do you think of dentists judging dental work over the Net by viewing photographs?

I prefer to get my info from the horses mouth so to speak, the evidence tends to be more accurate.

I can judge a lot by seeing a photo.

Question is, would you trust a load of dentists (who give their time and advice for free) on an internet forum who stand to make no money from this patient or do you trust the advice of the guy who has just taken your money and of course is going to tell you that all is ok even if it is not???

circ

Oral Surgeon wrote: »

I can judge a lot by seeing a photo.

Question is, would you trust a load of dentists (who give their time and advice for free) on an internet forum who stand to make no money from this patient or do you trust the advice of the guy who has just taken your money and of course is going to tell you that all is ok even if it is not???

Oral surgeon,

Surely you rely on patients to inform you of pain, their bite being correct, etc? I would have thought that the ultimate judgement of successful treatment was patient feedback rather than the surgeon's satisfaction with their own work.

Regarding your question about who to trust: myself I'd do much research and look for unbiased sources. They may be dentists on forums such as this and people who have had treatment and are happy with the results.

As I said earlier, I can see much benefit from using dentists in your home country, and I don't think Irish dentists over charge given the cost of things in Ireland. I also just don't believe that all dentistry abroad is as suspect as some may imply.

Oral Surgeon

circ wrote: »

Oral surgeon,
Surely you rely on patients to inform you of pain, their bite being correct, etc? I would have thought that the ultimate judgement of successful treatment was patient feedback rather than the surgeon's satisfaction with their own work.

I sure do, but as previously said there are a lot of problems that fester away in a completely asymptomatic fashion. Sure it's the patients mouth but he/she is not a dentist and is not used to distinguishing between good and bad work- you don't know what you don't know.... So, just going by that opinion alone is not good enough imo...

circ wrote: »

Oral surgeon,
I also just don't believe that all dentistry abroad is as suspect as some may imply.

Not all, but a lot...

Big_G

Circ, the ultimate test of success is time. Subjective assessment ( that is the patients experience) is valuable but inferior to objective assessment (the dentists view of the case obviously taking into account the patients experience). There are a number of reasons for this not least of which the patient can only see about 20% of their own mouth. Subjective experience is often clouded by the brains interpretation of sensory signals and the patients ability to understand what they are feeling. What is required
Is training to interpret what the patient relays. Not to mention the multitude of pathologies that present with only signs, not symptoms (patient unaware that there is a problem or the potential for a problem).

So to reply to your assertion that the ultimate test of success is patient satisfaction - it is a good test but not the ultimate test. The ultimate test
is time and objective scrutiny.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

This is classic information asymmetry as we discussed above.

Below is a case I saw. This lady had extensive crown and bridge work abroad in a very short space of time. She thought it was fantastic for 3 years or more telling all her friends what a great service she had and how much money she saved. To the untrained eye you might thing it looks pretty ok. This is a prime example of why technical quality is so important. Attention to detail is what's done when nobody is looking.....

Two teeth snapped off on the bottom and she came to my clinic as no other dentist wanted to get involved with such a case. Apart from the lower crowns which snapped off she had 8 root infections on 8 separate teeth which she knew nothing about. The design of the work was very poor and the fit inaccurate causing gum and decay problems that she was unaware of. The design which is common in high speed jobs of joining teeth together so they wont fail until after "warranty" is up means that retreatment is very complex and costly. Root canal treatments were of very poor quality, preparations of teeth were poor, the laboratory work was of below acceptable standard.

If she had started a thread 3 years ago she would have called her experience an "unqualified success", however in reality is was a unqualified disaster. She was unable to afford retreatment and now has complete dentures. I felt extremely bad for this lady and almost halved my normal fees for her, she still could not afford it after spending getting them done in the first place.She went back to the treating dentist which cost her 2k in flights and accommodation (not cheap when you need them fast) and was told to basically go away. She tired legal recourse but the cost of this was more than having it fixed.

circ

Oral Surgeon wrote: »

Not all, but a lot...

Out of interest why do you think that is: are standards abroad in terms of training, etc, inferior?

circ

Big_G wrote: »

Circ, the ultimate test of success is time. Subjective assessment ( that is the patients experience) is valuable but inferior to objective assessment (the dentists view of the case obviously taking into account the patients experience). There are a number of reasons for this not least of which the patient can only see about 20% of their own mouth. Subjective experience is often clouded by the brains interpretation of sensory signals and the patients ability to understand what they are feeling. What is required
Is training to interpret what the patient relays. Not to mention the multitude of pathologies that present with only signs, not symptoms (patient unaware that there is a problem or the potential for a problem).

So to reply to your assertion that the ultimate test of success is patient satisfaction - it is a good test but not the ultimate test. The ultimate test
is time and objective scrutiny.

Fair enough BigG. I can see your reasoning.

At the same time I don't think, for example, it would be fair to dismiss the OP's satisfaction with his/her treatment based on an internet analysis.

circ

Fitzgeme,

It is important to highlight cases like that.

I just don't believe, that all treatment in countries, such as say Hungary, lead to bad treatment.

helimachoptor

circ wrote: »

Out of interest why do you think that is: are standards abroad in terms of training, etc, inferior?

Fitz linked to something (it may have been deleted) that it's a European known that education/training standards in some eastern European countrties are less than western ones.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

circ wrote: »

Fitzgeme,

It is important to highlight cases like that.

I just don't believe, that all treatment in countries, such as say Hungary, lead to bad treatment.

Its as I have always said its not the location its the speed of treatment. A good dentist (of which there are many in every country) will not allow treatment to be compromised by short time frames, or close the possibility of waiting for healing or waiting to check fits or aesthetics because the patient is getting on a plane. There is a style of poor restorative dentistry being practiced where adjacent teeth are being joined and long span bridges fitted for speed of treatment and to guarantee short term success. The standard of root canal treatment I have seen has been appalling. Even a good dentist will do suboptimal treatment under these conditions, imagine what a bad or unethical dentist will do?

Not every case is like this, it tends to be the larger cases, but its only large cases that its worthwhile traveling for financially. Its a catch 22. Nobody ever said all treatment end up this way but how much of a risk must there be before it becomes unacceptable?

Heli Link here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bologna_Process

Big_G

circ wrote: »

Fair enough BigG. I can see your reasoning.

At the same time I don't think, for example, it would be fair to dismiss the OP's satisfaction with his/her treatment based on an internet analysis.

Fair enough, what we should all do then in future is say "good for you, we're happy that you're happy" and close the thread and leave it at that. The problem is the dentists on here will never agree to endorse travelling abroad for extensive treatment. There are obvious conflicts of interest (even though the amount of people who actually travel is minuscule relative to the amount of treatment provided in Ireland), but the truth is it disgusts me that some of these guys are allowed to call themselves dentists after the assault and butchery they perpetrate on patients. . They ruin the good reputation of the profession as a whole.

What the op is seeking to do with this thread is to say that "it's ok to go abroad, my experience was good!" but there are so many other criteria with which it is more appropriate to consider when deciding on travelling for healthcare. I'm sorry but it's my ethical duty as a healthcare professional to work against the idea that one positive subjective experience can send people down a potentially dangerous road. I don't even practice in Ireland any more so it doesn't affect me. As I've said previously here, I have not seen a case done in Eastern Europe or Turkey that I would consider acceptable by Western European or North American standards.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Good post there Big_G as always. Just because good advice is not going to be taken is no reason not to give it.....

The OP would not give enough detail we requested it. Seeing as most people say you have to do loads of research which is all on the internet or from companies that sell this treatment before getting treatment while on holidays I think internet analysis is valid, whats sauce for the goose........

circ

Big G

You make some valid points and I respect your point of view.

As an outside observer - with no interests either way - I will say that sometimes the obvious passion dentists have here for this issue can sometimes come across as bias. So it is good to have an open discussion and to see all points of view.

I have faith that many people are discerning and will generally find the better treatment over the bad.

Hillmanhunter1

circ wrote: »

Hillmanhunter1,

Just out of curiosity how was your experience abroad regarding communication? Were the dentists who treated you very good English speakers? Was it an issue at all?

I know myself, I'd be slightly concerned that something might get lost in translation and I'd end up with teeth like Jaws out James Bond:eek:. That said I appreciate that many people in Europe have very good English.

Bear in mind that the clinic that I used has a surgery in Dublin where I was first assessed by two dentists who spoke perfect English (though given that I'm not an English teacher perhaps I should be careful about giving an opinion about their proficiency;)).

When I arrived in Budapest I was met and generally chaperoned by an administrator who spoke perfect English, and the dentist who treated me also spoke perfect English. The assistant/dental nurse had very poor English. The reception staff had enough English to do their job, but were not fluent.

worthyone

My partner has just come back from 2 weeks of treatment in Budapest & is very happy with the work he has had done. (Inplants, crowns a go go etc) I went over a few years ago for implants / bridge work etc and was also very happy with the dentistry. Compared to what I have experienced here in Westport it was real state of the art machinery and surgery. I'd recommend it to anyone who needs a lot of treatment. Pm me if you want details. Should mention it is all really easy - you get met at the airport, taken to a cheap but ok hotel 5 mins walk to the clinic etc.

Big_G

Hillmanhunter1 wrote: »

Bear in mind that the clinic that I used has a surgery in Dublin where I was first assessed by two dentists who spoke perfect English (though given that I'm not an English teacher perhaps I should be careful about giving an opinion about their proficiency;)).

When I arrived in Budapest I was met and generally chaperoned by an administrator who spoke perfect English, and the dentist who treated me also spoke perfect English. The assistant/dental nurse had very poor English. The reception staff had enough English to do their job, but were not fluent.

Most people who speak English natively will have some ability to assess a non-native speakers proficiency. Not everybody is native at dentistry .

Also it is to be pointed out and has been pointed out that just because there is a clinic for this company in Dublin does not mean that their dentistry is good or even that you will receive remedial care in Dublin. They will likely send you back to where you had the treatment performed if you require any remedial work. Maintenance may or may not be performed in Dublin.

eric hoone

RE. language barriers; I hope anyone having specialist work done abroad doesn't have to seek bi-lingual dental council representatives or litigators should treatments not go to plan.

Hillmanhunter1

Well it's now (almost) the third anniversary of my treatment in Budapest, and according to my (German) dentist my oral health is excellent.

I has a check-up last week and my gums are fine, and the posts (built upon my remaining teeth) that hold my overdentures in place are also fine. The only problem that I've had is that the veneer came off one of the teeth on my overdenture - as a result of chomping on tic-tacs!

dentalboyo

Unfortunately for dentists in Ireland the patients have come to the view they are consumers.
They will shop around for the best price like they do for white goods unfortunately this doesn't work for dentistry. The internet has enabled this process even more than pre-internet days. Flashy web sites and flashy head line prices entice customers (patients) with BOGOF deals and special offers.

If you are considering dental work abroad you should make sure the dental practice abroad has an office in Ireland with guarantee's that all follow up or remedial work will be done in Ireland at no extra fee. Any dental practice worth their salt abroad would have a dental practice in Ireland for patients to visit for remedial work if it should be required. Ideally the dentist in the foreign country should come to Ireland on a regular basis for patients to have access to them. The dentist who does your work abroad should be accredited with your local Dental Council.

helimachoptor

dentalboyo you are right on the edge of a very thin line here.
Your subtle attempts at promoting foreign dentistry are pretty damn obvious.

dentalboyo

Not interested in promoting just making a comment. Irish dentists need to react to the misunderstood cost savings by showing Irish patients travelling abroad is NOT the way forward. I am not in favor of travelling abroad for dentistry as you never know what will happen and returning to the clinic abroad is expensive.