Excellent Experience with Budapest Dentist

Hillmanhunter1

Early in 2010 I looked for some impartial advice on this site concerning the options and the costs of having extensive dental treatment performed in Hungary.

The needlessly restrictive rules of the forum, and the hectoring approach of some posters with obvious conflicts of interest, meant that getting any meaningful information was impossible.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055882151

However I persevered, travelled to Budapest in January 2011 and now, a year later, I can report that it was an unqualified success. The whole experience was superbly organised, I dealt only with competent and kind professionals. I paid a price that did not leave me in debt, and I am over the moon with the result. For the first time in 20 years I've noticed that I can be seen smiling and laughing in photographs.

Due to the posting rules I cannot tell who I went to or how much it cost, however I will be very happy to answer these or any other questions by PM.

the_syco

Hillmanhunter1 wrote: »

Due to the posting rules I cannot tell who I went to or how much it cost, however I will be very happy to answer these or any other questions by PM.

It's my understanding that (please correct me if I'm wrong) you can't ask for prices, or talk about your disagreement of the price you got at a dentist here, but I don't think it's against the rules to state roughly what you got done, and the price when you're happy with the price?

It may help those who are searching for cost, etc.

helimachoptor

Op, can you post up your treatment plan and pics?

We've obviously seen the pictures and read the horror stories.

However what I will say is that if you do above, it will be critiqued by the dentists on here good and bad.

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Mod edit...Anyone reading this thread please read it to the end and see what happened for this poster.
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heli I hope you dont mind me editing your post, the OP demanded I remove this text from his origional post "forthwidth".

Oral Surgeon

Hillmanhunter1 wrote: »

Early in 2010 I looked for some impartial advice on this site concerning the options and the costs of having extensive dental treatment performed in Hungary.

The needlessly restrictive rules of the forum, and the hectoring approach of some posters with obvious conflicts of interest, meant that getting any meaningful information was impossible.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055882151

However I persevered, travelled to Budapest in January 2011 and now, a year later, I can report that it was an unqualified success. The whole experience was superbly organised, I dealt only with competent and kind professionals. I paid a price that did not leave me in debt, and I am over the moon with the result. For the first time in 20 years I've noticed that I can be seen smiling and laughing in photographs.

Due to the posting rules I cannot tell who I went to or how much it cost, however I will be very happy to answer these or any other questions by PM.

Great:D

Bearcat

Well done hillman, what work do you get done to your knashers and how long did you have to stay out there? It's not everyone's cuppa making such a long trek, but if you've saved a packet, got your teeth sorted and your happy, well it's win , win.:D

Squiggle

Hillmanhunter1 wrote: »

However I persevered, travelled to Budapest in January 2011 and now, a year later, I can report that it was an unqualified success.

I'm not a dentist and have absolutely no vested interest but, in fairness, is reporting extensive dental treatment in Budapest an " unqualified success " just one year on not a bit premature? For me to even consider going to Budapest I'd want a referral from someone who had treatment ten years ago at the place I was going to ! Even if I had such a referral I wouldn't go abroad for dental treatment as I would have genuine concerns about follow up care if I had subsequent problems.

Bearcat

The follow up care is certainly a large element in my dental life......everyone to their own.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

I am glad you are happy op and hope that in 5-10 years when true success will be known you are happy also. Its nice to hear some good stories and not just the usual horror ones. Please post a pic of your new smile, preferably with the gums around the crowns/implants/veneers showing, and let the dentists here see if they would consider this success unqualified.

The last poster to come on gushing about their budget dental work posted pics for us (which she later asked to be removed http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=74635661) and it turned out the treatment was questionable at best and a total mess at worst.

Hillmanhunter1

helimachoptor wrote: »

Op, can you post up your treatment plan and pics?

We've obviously seen the pictures and read the horror stories.

However what I will say is that if you do above, it will be critiqued by the dentists on here good and bad.

Hi Helimanchoptor

I'm not going to post more specific details of the treatment or the prices simply because as soon as I do then the dentist/moderator cabal will be happy to take the discussion down a technical alley-way and give me a good mugging. However if anyone else is thinking of going to Budapest (and I would recommend it highly) I am happy go go into details via PM.

(In passing, and for the avoidance of doubt, I do not represent nor have I any arrangement or understanding with the surgery that I used).

Instead I will focus on the experience from the consumer's perspective. I spent two spells in Budapest, first in October 2010 for some preparatory work and then, 10 weeks later, back to finish the job. The price was excellent and, from my perspective, (and they are my teeth after all) the outcome has been an unqualified success. I can smile again and I've become reacquainted with the taste and texture of a medium rare steak.

I appreciate that just because I'm happy one year later does not mean that everything will still be perfect in 10 years, but that would be the case no matter where I had had the work done. Also, I don't expect that the work will still be perfect in 10 years - the dentist told me that I probably will need follow-up work done in about 10 years and that's fine by me - Budapest is a beautiful place to spend a few days (even if part of the time is spent in a dentist's chair).

The dentists on this forum would have consumers believe that mine is an unusual experience and that horror stories are the norm. Intuitively I believe that this is a crock, I'm sure there are some horror stories (just as there are with Irish dentists) but that on the whole consumers are very happy with the service and the price.

helimachoptor

Op I haven't seen Cabaal post here so i doubt he's going to stop by.

However coming on and claiming you got great treatment without either saying what work you had or posting pictures does seem a little odd.

This a dental forum so there are dentists here, they will give you feedback on how your treatment looks, good bad or indifferent.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

OP sound like this should be on trip advisor not here, a nice holiday and some people being nice to you are great, but the technical quality and treatment planning of your dental work are more important on this forum. To have done this in the first place, that must have been a secondary consideration to you. Read the thread I link to above to see the void that exists between your thinking treatment is a success and the actual problems. Yes all dental work will need periodic replacement however its how its done now that will decide how complex and expensive it will be come retreatment time.

Also be very careful what you recommend to other people. Any sort of advanced dental work done in short periods of time is not a good idea. If it was we would all do it that way.

Hillmanhunter1

I am not a dentist, and I have no interest in discussing my treatment with a dentist.

I am a consumer of dental services and I am posting information about my experiences for the information of other consumers of dental services. I'm not bothered if suppliers of dental services in Ireland quibble with me. As a sceptic I'm not surprised that they disagree - to paraphrase Mandy Rice-Davis "they would, wouldn't they?"

From a consumer perspective my experiences have been very positive. The fact that Budapest is a pretty city is perhaps an additional but not essential factor, the aspects that are really important from a consumer's perspective are quality and price, and on both of those counts I am very happy.

I know that's too warm and fuzzy for some people, so what? Some of us practice dentistry, some are practised upon.

helimachoptor

Hillmanhunter1 wrote: »

I am not a dentist, and I have no interest in discussing my treatment with a dentist.

I am a consumer of dental services and I am posting information about my experiences for the information of other consumers of dental services. I'm not bothered if suppliers of dental services in Ireland quibble with me. As a sceptic I'm not surprised that they disagree - to paraphrase Mandy Rice-Davis "they would, wouldn't they?"

From a consumer perspective my experiences have been very positive. The fact that Budapest is a pretty city is perhaps an additional but not essential factor, the aspects that are really important from a consumer's perspective are [quality and price, and on both of those counts I am very happy.

I know that's too warm and fuzzy for some people, so what? Some of us practice dentistry, some are practised upon.

If its from a consumer perspective then you can tell everyone the price you got in the Consumer Issues forum.

If you are not prepared to discuss your treatment plan or post pictures for the dentists here to look at then this is not a Dental Issue and I am locking the thread.

Bearcat

Adan Petite Crate wrote: »

. Any sort of advanced dental work done in short periods of time is not a good idea..

For me this is a major part of my dental life.....I spread my work required over a year and with the reassurance my dentist is 20mins down the road should things go pear shaped. I'm kicking another rc job down the road.

As for the thread......yet again handbags on this challenging topic.:(

Hillmanhunter1

As referred to in another thread I had a good experience recently with a clinic in Budapest and I thought it would be useful to others contemplating treatment abroad to give my story.

There are many examples of horror stories regarding treatment in Eastern Europe but I guess, given the numbers that travel there (not just from Ireland but from other Western European countries too) that it can’t all be bad.

Charter rules state that I cannot name the clinic that I visited, but if anyone else wants to know just send me a PM. I have no connection with the clinic other than being a patient, and I don’t know if they are better or worse than their competitors here or in their home country. I chose them because they have a surgery in Dublin. I figured that this was a sign that they weren’t a fly-by-night outfit, and it gave me a chance to get an impression of the firm without having to leave Dublin.

My first appointment was in the Dublin surgery where I was examined by two dentists. They took X-rays and discussed a treatment plan with me. 30 years of smoking and poor oral hygiene meant that my teeth, and in particular my gums, were in pretty poor condition. I had thought that I might be able to get some implants but I was told that because my gums and jaw-bones had receded the likelihood of success with that treatment was slim. The advice of the dentists was that overdentures were the best option for me. Google “overdenture” and you’ll get a better idea of what that is, but for the lay person, essentially they proposed to extract those of my teeth that couldn’t be saved (11) and to fit telescopic crowns to those that could (7). The telescopic crowns would serve to anchor the overdenture and give a better bite than standard dentures. (If anyone can explain that better please go ahead).

I travelled to Budapest for the first part of the treatment on a Sunday evening in late 2010. I was met at the airport and brought to an OK hotel (clean & comfortable but pretty basic). Next morning a representative met me at the hotel and brought me to the clinic. Over that day I had 11 teeth extracted and impressions were taken for temporary dentures. I didn’t have a general anaesthetic, and while I had dreaded having so much work done in one day it wasn’t as traumatic as I feared. I was given painkillers and sent back to the hotel where, to my surprise, I had a good night’s sleep. Next day I went back to the clinic for a half an hour for a first fitting of my temporary dentures. The following day I went back for a final fitting and I flew home that evening.

I was told that it would take at least two months for my gums to heal, however after a few days back in Dublin I found that the temporary dentures were hurting me and needed to be adjusted. I called the surgery in Dublin and was seen later that day, were the necessary adjustments were made.

In February 2011 I returned to Budapest for a week to have my treatment completed. Over the first two days I had one root canal treatment, two fillings, and temporary crowns were fitted to my remaining teeth (7). I had several sessions at the clinic over the following two days where impressions for my final overdentures were made, and on the Friday morning the 7 telescopic crowns were fitted and my overdentures were also ready. I flew back to Dublin that evening.

That was approximately a year ago. Since then I’ve left Ireland and I now live abroad. I recently had my dental work reviewed by a German dentist who told me that all was well.

Treatment Plan
From earlier posts it’s clear that the mods like posters to give as much detail as possible about treatment plans, so here is the detail of what I had done (the numbers in brackets refer to specific teeth) and the costs:
Calculus removal €80
Tooth extraction (12,11,21,22,27,34,32,31,41,42,45) €45 x 11 = €495
Temporary dentures €490 x 2 = €980
Telescopic crown (15,13,24,35,33,44,45) €255 x 7 = €1785
Root canal treatment (35) €99
Composite filling (13,24) €99 x 2 = €198
Final overdentures €695 x 2 = €1390
Total: €5027

Added to that is the cost of travel and accommodation which came to just short of €1000, so the total cost was about €6000.

georgieporgy

Hillman, is it a typo or was tooth #45 both extracted and crowned?

And I note #13 and 24 were both charged for a filling and crown ( i understand you mean telescopic crowns)

35 had a root canal and telescopic crown. no filling or post/core charged for that one. was it just included in the crown fee?

Hillmanhunter1

georgieporgy wrote: »

Hillman, is it a typo or was tooth #45 both extracted and crowned?

And I note #13 and 24 were both charged for a filling and crown ( i understand you mean telescopic crowns)

35 had a root canal and telescopic crown. no filling or post/core charged for that one. was it just included in the crown fee?

Re tooth 45, its a typo alright, but not mine. I'm looking a the treatment plan and that's what it says. Looking at the diagram that shows the numbers of the teeth I think that the typo is that it should have said that 46 was extracted, 44 and 45 were crowned.

Re 13 and 24 and 35 the treatment plan said that they would require fillings (root canal treatment in the case of 35) and priced for this work, but they didn't appear on the invoice. I wasn't actually charged for that work.

gdpman

Hi Hillmanhunter1, firstly delighted with the fact you are happy with your treatment.

I am a general dentist working in the Irish Republic (outside of major city), I have read Boards for a few years but never posted before, but after reading your post decided to write.

We see medical card patients as well as PRSI patients (for what is left of the scheme)and after reading your post thought I might post a comment. For a several years now we have seen patients who have travelled abroad both to Northern Ireland and further afield, like everything in life there is good and bad (and that does apply south of the border also).

However I know that if I provide treatment I am answerable to the courts and have a duty of care to my patients, for which I would like to hope I have developed a caring ethical relationship with.

Recently we have seen a drop in the standard of care with some of the clinics abroad which has resulted in us having to organise a referral to specialist prosthodontists, oral surgeons and endodontists. This does result in huge costs to patients, some of the treatment plans I would not prescribe for my patients (or family). This has been distressing to these patients as cases cannot be pursued in Ireland and have to be taken in the jurisdiction treatment was carried out in.

A major drawback of the clinics in the continued care that these complex cases require, that is not provided or advised about.

Patients are free to seek treatment where they want with who they want, I have no problem with this, but a constant theme I have seen running through the forum is how much was saved.

From a personal point if you were covered by a medical card these extractions would have been free, if not I know personally we would charge for the time in the chair rather than a per item basis, and I can assure you it would have been cheaper to see a local general dentist. Did you seek a quote from your own dentist.?

What I have found recently is that patients who have sought treatment from abroad have been treated by “specialists” from some of these clinics and have not received specialist treatment. On a personal note I must admit I am not to keen to jump into the car to provide out of hours cover to new patients for work that was done abroad (as happened over the Christmas and New Year).

I hope you continue to be happy with your treatment and continue to seek maintenance care from your local dentist.

If patients did ask advice for travelling abroad I can only say do thorough research and possibly ask their own dentist for advice.

dory

helimachoptor wrote: »

However coming on and claiming you got great treatment without either saying what work you had or posting pictures does seem a little odd.

Why does it seem odd?? He didn't come on to get it critiqued. He didn't come asking for your opinion on the work. It's a Dental Issues forum and he came on to tell the other people who are also consumers of dental treatment about his experience. IF you want this forum to be only for dentists talking about technical dental stuff why not make it a private forum just for dentists?

I've been a regular visitor to Budapest for a few years and my family and friends have been seeing the same dentist there for over 10 years. I was very disappointed with the standard of care I got from a number of Irish dentists and this was confirmed by French and UK dentists so I went abroad.

Reading posts from the vested interests here is laughable. I've got about 50 PMs in the last year looking for the details of my Budapest dentist. Seems I'm not the only one fed up with the Irish system.

Dianthus

Hi Hillmanhunter1, glad you're getting on well with your dental transformation! Just out of curiosity:
- The 11 teeth that were extracted; were they beyond saving due to decay, gum disease, or a combination?
- Prior to the Budapest experience, were you a regular 6month/yearly attender, or an "as& when" attender? You also mentioned the 30 year smoking/poor oral hygiene. How&/have things changed since the overhaul?
- Prior to Budapest, what sort of treatment plans/quotes had you received from Irish dentists? (no doubt higher, Ireland being Ireland:rolleyes:). Had you a number of consultations with different dentists, Irish& foreign, to shop around?
- The German dentist you saw recently, did you ask- again, just out of curiosity!- how much a similar job (telescopic crowns, root canal, overdentures, ect) would have cost with them?

CyberJuice

Hillmanhunter1 wrote: »

Treatment Plan
From earlier posts it’s clear that the mods like posters to give as much detail as possible about treatment plans, so here is the detail of what I had done (the numbers in brackets refer to specific teeth) and the costs:

Tooth extraction (12,11,21,22,27,34,32,31,41,42,45) €45 x 11 = €495
Temporary dentures €490 x 2 = €980


Composite filling (13,24) €99 x 2 = €198

99 euro for a white filling.. this is roughly the same price i get charged here in ireland. so no saving there..

calculus removal 80 euro.i guess this is just scraping the teeth to remove some plaque calculs stuff. again roughly 70 - 90 euro here to see a hygienist and get this done,so not much saving there.

temporary denture 490 euro.. i think over here the price is similar or only a small amount more for a temporary denture but i could be wrong on this one..


45 euro for tooth removal, if u have medical card its free for tooth removal so you coulda saved yourself 11x45 if u qualified for the card.. but without a card its about 90 quid to have a tooth taken out here so half price,not too bad on that front..


overall it seems that the money saved was only mayb 500 euro max when you add in your flight costs and hotel and your food and stuff while in the foreign country.. im not sure if its worth it for such a small saving or did you save a couple thousand? id like to know how much cheaper overall this was please

helimachoptor

dory wrote: »

Why does it seem odd?? He didn't come on to get it critiqued. He didn't come asking for your opinion on the work. It's a Dental Issues forum and he came on to tell the other people who are also consumers of dental treatment about his experience. IF you want this forum to be only for dentists talking about technical dental stuff why not make it a private forum just for dentists?

I've been a regular visitor to Budapest for a few years and my family and friends have been seeing the same dentist there for over 10 years. I was very disappointed with the standard of care I got from a number of Irish dentists and this was confirmed by French and UK dentists so I went abroad.

Reading posts from the vested interests here is laughable. I've got about 50 PMs in the last year looking for the details of my Budapest dentist. Seems I'm not the only one fed up with the Irish system.

I'm not a dentist.

If you went onto the Motors forum and proclaimed a certain garage utterly fantastic and didnt say what they did to your car etc would you not think that suspicious.

dory

helimachoptor wrote: »

I'm not a dentist.

If you went onto the Motors forum and proclaimed a certain garage utterly fantastic and didnt say what they did to your car etc would you not think that suspicious.

Eh, no! Most wouldn't even know what they did to the car only that's it's working great.
I do find it odd that you want the OP to post what would be pretty upclose photos of his teeth! :eek:

helimachoptor

dory wrote: »

Eh, no! Most wouldn't even know what they did to the car only that's it's working great.
I do find it odd that you want the OP to post what would be pretty upclose photos of his teeth! :eek:

But most would know what they got done to their teeth, so why would you not say when asked?

Not really, we have a dental forum here with many dental-y type people who have many years of expertise.
The OP was saying he got great quality and price abroad, if this is the case why not post up pictures for the dental folks to take a look at and comment on good and/or bad.

I got work done in NI a couple of years ago and posted up a fairly detailed thread with pics of before during and after of implant work. Frankly this forum is a great resource and friends of mine who don't know I moderate it often say they good advice from the dentists on here, whether it's posting directly or reading others peoples posts and the answers to them.

I'd prefer not to take this off topic any further.

Hillmanhunter1

I’m afraid that creating proper multi-quote posts is beyond my technical ability, so that is why I’m using the following style:

gdpman

“From a personal point if you were covered by a medical card these extractions would have been free, if not I know personally we would charge for the time in the chair rather than a per item basis, and I can assure you it would have been cheaper to see a local general dentist. Did you seek a quote from your own dentist?”

I don’t have a medical card. I didn’t seek a quote from an Irish dentist. I researched both options (i.e. going abroad and staying at home) online using the prices published by those dentists who do publish their prices, and also using discussion forums such as this one in Ireland, the UK and France.

Dianthus

“The 11 teeth that were extracted; were they beyond saving due to decay, gum disease, or a combination?”

Gum disease was the major problem, I did have some decay but that could have been dealt with had my gums been healthy.

“Prior to the Budapest experience, were you a regular 6month/yearly attender, or an "as& when" attender? You also mentioned the 30 year smoking/poor oral hygiene. How&/have things changed since the overhaul?”

I was (at best) an “as & when” attender. Regarding smoking I had quit two years before getting the treatment, and indeed getting my smile back was one of my incentives/rewards for quitting. I’m still off the weeds. My oral hygiene had been much better in recent years, particularly after I quit smoking, but in terms of my gums it was too little too late. I am now far better that I ever was before.

“Prior to Budapest, what sort of treatment plans/quotes had you received from Irish dentists? (no doubt higher, Ireland being Ireland). Had you a number of consultations with different dentists, Irish& foreign, to shop around?”

As I said above my research was all online.

“The German dentist you saw recently, did you ask- again, just out of curiosity!- how much a similar job (telescopic crowns, root canal, overdentures, etc) would have cost with them?”

I didn’t think to ask for a quote. (BTW, the dentist was German, but we were not in Germany)

Cyberjuice

“Overall it seems that the money saved was only maybe 500 euro max when you add in your flight costs and hotel and your food and stuff while in the foreign country. I’m not sure if it’s worth it for such a small saving or did you save a couple thousand? I’d like to know how much cheaper overall this was please”

I’d prefer not to get into posting price comparisons as this seems to be fraught with danger from a Charter perspective. In any event the purpose of my posts has not been to make explicit price comparisons, but rather to say that I found my experience of going to Budapest for dental treatment to be a good experience. Regarding price I can say that I was happy with the price I paid. Anyone else is free to comment on that price, or if an Irish dentist wishes to post the price they would have charged I think that would be OK too.

georgieporgy

If I was extracting 1 tooth I would charge 100euro. But I would not charge 1100 for 11 teeth (esp 11 loose teeth)

My fee for the work outlined would have been approx 4000- 4500 (depending on whether root canal was done )

The permanent dentures would have been cast chrome cobalt @1200 ea.

extractions and cleaning and temp dents 1000. fillings approx 100-150 ea. initial exam xrays etc 100.

I would guess that most other irish dentists would be pretty close to that give or take 1000.

It's a different treatment plan than described by hillmanhunter though. telescopic crowns and overdentures are popular in Germany (and Eastern Europe it seems) but not too common elsewhere. I have practised in ireland , uk, and canada over the past 35 years and have only seen one in a patient's mouth. That was just a few months ago. It had been made by an irish dentist who had spent some years in Germany.

They can be good in the right circumstances, though the one i saw wasn't, but that was because it was simply the wrong thing for that patient.

Hillman should be ok now for a good few years with what he has described.

hg03 eyu

Being "as and when" patient is in my opinion an essentially emergency only type patient

If you attended a dentist regularly in Ireland then your gum disease should have been detected early and hopefully prevented.

Any patient presenting requiring 11 extractions due to gum disease would require extensive gum treatment and oral hygiene instruction perhaps by a specialist for the remaining teeth.

Such treatment would have to be completed prior to any teeth being crowned Furthermore, a patients ability to maintain a high level of oral hygiene should be monitored for a period of time prior to any teeth being crowned.

Oral Surgeon

Hillmanhunter1 wrote: »

Calculus removal €80
Tooth extraction (12,11,21,22,27,34,32,31,41,42,45) €45 x 11 = €495
Temporary dentures €490 x 2 = €980
Telescopic crown (15,13,24,35,33,44,45) €255 x 7 = €1785
Root canal treatment (35) €99
Composite filling (13,24) €99 x 2 = €198
Final overdentures €695 x 2 = €1390
Total: €5027

Added to that is the cost of travel and accommodation which came to just short of €1000, so the total cost was about €6000.

How come the temp dentures cost just a little less than the final dentures? Is it that the temps are really good or the finals really bad???

btkm8unsl0w5r4

georgieporgy wrote: »

My fee for the work outlined would have been approx 4000- 4500 (depending on whether root canal was done )

I thought its was on the expensive side for this sort of high speed stuff alright, headline costs are low and then your killed on the little things that I wouldn't charge so much for like extracting loose teeth or temporary dentures, must have cost 7k after flights, time off, food, accommodation etc.

Telescopic dentures are pretty old fashioned, and popular in Germany due to dental insurance issues they have. I would also have issues that the periodontal condition has not been treated properly, it must have been severe to warrant 11 extractions. Sometime necessary treatment is left out because it does not fit into the time your there.

You would wonder what the remaining abutments holding the denture in are like. Overdentures have a 80% abutments failure rate at 8 years when they are done very well. Also there would be space issues making aesthetics poor on the denture. I see you don't have any fees for the secondary telescopes, were they done or is it just in acrylic and chrome on the fit surface of the denture. Post a few pictures of the dentures, underside and in your mouth and we can all see.

Dont think much of the treatment plan, the time it was done in, or the price. Its not a plan I would recommend to patients. However I am sure you see a great improvement and feel you got good treatment. I sure you will give out about this post, but your insistent on posting in dental issues, and your going to get technical criticism. I would fail a dental student for doing this as you have outlined.

Hillmanhunter1

The total cost of my treatment, including flights and accommodation was under €6,000, not €7,000.

Dentistry may not be my strong suit, but I'm not too bad on cost/benefit analysis. In that context let's not forget that while it was not the reason for going to Budapest, it is nevertheless a very beautiful city and I got to see the museums and sights of the city, including a visit to the Hungarian State Opera. There is value in all of that (and to refer back to an earlier comment by Fitzgeme, that doesn't mean that TripAdvisor is the place for this post!).

Speaking of value, I don't know whether the price that I paid was a bargain or not, I never said that it was, I said that I was happy with the price and that it did not leave me in debt. I didn't start this thread with the intention of making price comparisons and I only posted the prices that I paid following requests by a mod on this forum (helimanchoptor) and a discussion on the Help Desk forum:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76802907

The dentists who post here have been dancing around the price issue, but without engaging in it with the same clarity that I was demanded of me and which I have offered. georgieporgy has picked out a couple of elements, but has not priced the telescopic crowns. Oral Surgeon, hg03 eyu and Fitzgeme have not offered any price comparisons - as far as I can tell there is no prohibition on doing so in the Charter.

I passing, and to give credit where it is due, I note that Fitzgeme is a model of transparency, his prices are quoted on his professional site, chapeau!.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Its difficult for me to give a price comparison because I wouldn't in a million years do that treatment plan in that space of time, on somebody who is periodontally unstable. I would be more expensive but the specification of the job, the time involved and the quality of the laboratory work with me would be greater. Your cost benefit/analysis will only be valid in about 5 years when you see what level of retreatment is needed. Dentistry should be seen in a cost per year way. 6k for a set of dentures is pretty steep in any language.

A crown that cost 1000euro and last 15 years costs 67 euro a year. A crown that costs 400 euro and lasts 5 years costs 80 euro a year.

dory

Out of interest what is the going rate of a crown in Ireland these days? Is the 1000 the fitzgme up there said the norm or was he/were you just giving any old number for the example? And is there any way of getting them insured? Guaranteed? I wouldn't mind getting some work done in Ireland if I got the same guarantee I get abroad.

Morris Code

Squiggle wrote: »

I'm not a dentist and have absolutely no vested interest but, in fairness, is reporting extensive dental treatment in Budapest an " unqualified success " just one year on not a bit premature? For me to even consider going to Budapest I'd want a referral from someone who had treatment ten years ago at the place I was going to ! Even if I had such a referral I wouldn't go abroad for dental treatment as I would have genuine concerns about follow up care if I had subsequent problems.

Absolutely agree 100% with OP.If reporting an unqualified success after 1 year is premature-how about 4 years?I had it done 4 years ago-an I also report it an unqualified success.
The key to it is do your research and seek the advise of those who have done it-and btw the people I dealt with have after care arrangements with dentists here-I have not needed it.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

dory wrote: »

Out of interest what is the going rate of a crown in Ireland these days? Is the 1000 the fitzgme up there said the norm or was he/were you just giving any old number for the example? And is there any way of getting them insured? Guaranteed? I wouldn't mind getting some work done in Ireland if I got the same guarantee I get abroad.

No the average would be 600 - 900 euro depending on quality, dentist, location in the mouth etc. I was trying to put a nice high figure on it as an example. Guarantees are a bit vague on something that supposed to last 10 years or more. I refuse to give guarantees, I am not a car salesman. Does a surgeon guarantee your new hip? Does a GP guarantee that treatment will defiantly work. Short guarantees for 2-3-5 years are total rubbish. Read the small print, that does not cover any of the common complications such as root canal. Also there are usually proviso's such as "6 month checkup required at our clinic" as as the poster above says he has never gone back. Also many of the patient I have seen have gone back with totally inadequite work and told that they needed to brush their teeth better and everything was their fault.

Morris Code - glad to hear your happy. However 4 years is early days also, quality will shine at the 7-10 year mark, there the people I see coming to me with stuff starting to fail. Small jobs are often ok, however they are not the economical ones to have done abroad, its the big jobs, often teeth are joined together in big groups. This ensures that everything stays put for a number of years. However everything rots out from underneath and retreatment is a nightmare.

Check out these threads for a examples of the miserable cases I have seen, this case here for instance was going around telling everyone for a year or more what a great job she had done.......:rolleyes:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2055628532
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...6058173&page=2
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2055998870
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2055998870
http://www.dentist.ie/resources/jida...A_Winter07.pdf
http://www.gdc-uk.org/NR/rdonlyres/9...lcareFINAL.pdf
http://www.ada.org/3029.aspx?currentTab=1

Morris Code

Adan Petite Crate wrote: »

No the average would be 600 - 900 euro depending on quality, dentist, location in the mouth etc. I was trying to put a nice high figure on it as an example. Guarantees are a bit vague on something that supposed to last 10 years or more. I refuse to give guarantees, I am not a car salesman. Does a surgeon guarantee your new hip? Does a GP guarantee that treatment will defiantly work. Short guarantees for 2-3-5 years are total rubbish. Read the small print, that does not cover any of the common complications such as root canal. Also there are usually proviso's such as "6 month checkup required at our clinic" as as the poster above says he has never gone back. Also many of the patient I have seen have gone back with totally inadequite work and told that they needed to brush their teeth better and everything was their fault.

Morris Code - glad to hear your happy. However 4 years is early days also, quality will shine at the 7-10 year mark, there the people I see coming to me with stuff starting to fail. Small jobs are often ok, however they are not the economical ones to have done abroad, its the big jobs, often teeth are joined together in big groups. This ensures that everything stays put for a number of years. However everything rots out from underneath and retreatment is a nightmare.

Check out these threads for a examples of the miserable cases I have seen, this case here for instance was going around telling everyone for a year or more what a great job she had done.......:rolleyes:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2055628532
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...6058173&page=2
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2055998870
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2055998870
http://www.dentist.ie/resources/jida...A_Winter07.pdf
http://www.gdc-uk.org/NR/rdonlyres/9...lcareFINAL.pdf
http://www.ada.org/3029.aspx?currentTab=1

Thank u for your response and concern-I haven't got the slightest interest in reading about the miserable cases to which u refer.:D
Should I run into any difficulties in the future-my first port of call would be the people I went to in Hungary-I was hugely impressed with their whole state of the art service.
Oh and BTW in the event that I do run into any difficulty I will be honest enough to post on here.

Oh and forgot to mention that I have a Brother in Law in US who is a retired dentist-he could find no fault with the work.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Morris Code wrote: »

I haven't got the slightest interest in reading about the miserable cases to which u refer..

Nor do I in your recommendation but maybe people doing research into this might. We are building up quite a bit of evidence hear on the DI forum, its getting harder and harder to ignore.

Morris Code

Adan Petite Crate wrote: »

Nor do I in your recommendation but maybe people doing research into this might. We are building up quite a bit of evidence hear on the DI forum, its getting harder and harder to ignore.

Where exactly did I make a recommendation??

Thing is lets face it u just don't want to hear about the successful cases -just the "miserable"ones.
I will leave u at it-Cheers

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Morris Code wrote: »

I had it done 4 years ago-an I also report it an unqualified success.

Sound like a recommendation for dental tourism to me. I know there must be some success stories out there, however my experience is that for every success story there is a bad one also. You pay your money and take your chance. As for not wanting to hear success stories, I have yet to see or hear of a verified one. Quality is not so obvious for people who have not had advanced dentistry before.

BryanL

€6,000 for Overdenture case?????

Wow, that was not cheap, if anyone has more quotes like that from abroad why don't you post them on here before you travel and see how much you might save by not traveling?

Bryan

circ

I can see both pros and cons of having extensive work done in cheaper countries abroad such as Hungary. There are clear benefits to having work done in Ireland, not least ease of geographical access to the dentist who compeleted the work, etc.

That said dental tourism is not surprising considering we are part of a free market comprising the European Union (including Hungary).

I presume dental patients who are treated in Hunagry are protected under law as are other consumers of goods or services within the EU:

"Under the European Directive on certain aspects of the sale of consumer goods and associated guarantees (1999/44/EC), which was passed into law in January 2003 (S.I. 11 of 2003) in Ireland, all consumers purchasing goods in any EU Member State are entitled to a basic set of consumer rights. The existence of a single European market gives access to a wider range of products and services at competitive prices."

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/consumer_protection/consumer_rights/consumer_rights_and_cross_border_shopping_in_the_european_union.html

It also has to be accepted that dentists abroad are often able to offer more competitive pricing than dentists in Ireland. Consumers of dental services will continue to travel abroad, as to many customers, dental services are price sensitive. Irish dentists need to deal with that competition, the same as other businesses operating in different market places do.

Ireland's Competition Authority published the following report in 2007:

"EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

1. Competition in dental services is restricted and discouraged by an outdated system of regulation for dentists and related professions. The number of dentists and orthodontists being trained in Ireland has not kept pace with the growing demand for dental services. Consumers in Ireland do not have the benefits of the competition between dentists and a range of other qualified oral health professions that exists in other countries.
2. As a result, the prices consumers pay for dental services are not as competitive as they could be and consumers
do not have the full range of information and options available to them to purchase appropriate dental services
for their needs.
3. The price of private dental services in Ireland continues to rise at a rate above the general rate of health services
inflation. Although 80% of the population of Ireland is entitled to a free examination and clean annually, only 44%
of people in Ireland visit the dentist at least once a year. Some consumers travel to other countries for certain
dental services.
4. The regulatory system governing the dental profession in Ireland urgently needs reform. This is because
competition in dental services has been seriously undermined by inappropriate rules and regulations that
promote an outdated model of delivering oral health services:
• Consumers in Ireland have to visit a dentist for all their dental services (at least as an intermediary). In other
countries, consumers can access basic dental services directly from other qualified oral health professionals
- dental hygienists and clinical dental technicians;
• Dentists are prevented from competing through normal methods of competition such as advertising prices
and offering discounts;
• The restrictions on advertising deny consumers access to basic information about the availability of dental
services in their area which would help them to make informed decisions about their oral health;
• Dentists are unable to promote awareness of their practices and their services and this discourages them
from innovating. They are also at a competitive disadvantage vis-à-vis dentists in Northern Ireland and other
countries who can advertise freely here;
• Lack of transparency in prices reduces competitive pressure on dentists and discourages consumers from
purchasing routine or preventive dental services;
• Dentists traditionally work as sole practitioners, sometimes with other dentists as associates or as
employees in their practices. Competition between corporate bodies of dentists would have many benefits
for dentists and consumers, by improving their access to capital and business skills. These benefits include:
cost savings, ability to afford locations that are more convenient for many consumers, flexible working
arrangements, longer opening hours, and checks and balances on the quality of each dentist’s services (put
in place to maintain the corporate body’s reputation).
5. The regulatory system also offers limited protection for consumers:
• The Dental Council does not have strong powers to pursue those dental technicians practising dentistry
illegally in Ireland;

“Poor Prescriptions”

, Combat Poverty Agency, June 2007.

See

“Irish are top dental tourists”, Sunday Business Post, 12th August 2007.

Dental technicians make dentures for sale to dentists and repair dentures for dentists and for members of the public. However, a number of dental technicians fit and sell new dentures directly to the public, thus practising dentistry illegally.

dentists
• The Council must wait until damage is done to a patient before it can act against a dentist. There are no regular checks on the standard of dental services provided by dentists.

6. Another problem is the lack of training of sufficient dentists and orthodontists to meet demand. In particular, the training of orthodontists in Ireland has been “stop-start” and this has led to a shortage of orthodontists in the public sector.[/FONT]

7. In this report, the Competition Authority makes 12 recommendations to address the competition problems

identified in the dental profession. Implementing these recommendations will lead to a modern system of
regulation to ensure:
• that the health and safety of the public is protected;
• that consumers are more aware of their options and the prices for dental services;
• more choice for consumers regarding when, where, and from whom, they get dental services;
• better use of the skills and very expensive training of dentists and orthodontists;
• a sufficient supply of dentists, orthodontists and related professionals;
• value for money in dentists’ services;

• more consumers availing of dental services and thus better oral health in the population."[/LEFT]

(c) www.tca.ie/images/.../Dentists%20Executive%20Summary.pdf

[/FONT]

btkm8unsl0w5r4

The price of dentistry has dropped dramatically in the 5 years of recession since that report. Also advertising and most of the point have been addressed,you might as well quote the bible.

However the biggest flaw is that people don't "consume" dentistry, its healthcare where not only is there a product or service, but that service differs between each individual dentist depending on skill, training, time etc. There is a huge difference in dental treatment philosophy in different areas as can be seen in this thread. You rent a dentists you don't buy dental work.

Hence a crown on place A is not comparable to place B. People try and make economic reasoning like they are buying a dishwasher. They find out what they want, go online and find the cheapest place that sells it because its the same everywhere is it not. Thats not the way it works in healthcare. If you needed a hip operation you would try find the best surgeon to do the job, not the cheapest. The thing you are buying is the surgeon not the false hip. If you want a quality portrait painted you find a good painter not a cheap painter, you buying the skill not the canvas and paint. People on this forum, and in consumer circles try and trade items of dental work like commodities. They see that more items is better value. They think there is not quality differences, they assume that biological systems can be guaranteed, they assume that somebody charging more is making more money, they assume that faster is better, they assume any warning about the obvious folly of availing of healthcare far away and having complex treatment in ridiculously short periods of time are untrue, more because they don't want to believe them than the arguments themselves make no sense.

Yes there Cons and a Pro. The only pro is cost, everything else is in the Con category.

circ

Adan Petite Crate wrote: »

However the biggest flaw is that people don't "consume" dentistry, its healthcare where not only is there a product or service, but that service differs between each individual dentist depending on skill, training, time etc. There is a huge difference in dental treatment philosophy in different areas as can be seen in this thread. You rent a dentists you don't buy dental work.

Hence a crown on place A is not comparable to place B. People try and make economic reasoning like they are buying a dishwasher. They find out what they want, go online and find the cheapest place that sells it because its the same everywhere is it not. Thats not the way it works in healthcare. If you needed a hip operation you would try find the best surgeon to do the job, not the cheapest. The thing you are buying is the surgeon not the false hip. If you want a quality portrait painted you find a good painter not a cheap painter, you buying the skill not the canvas and paint. People on this forum, and in consumer circles try and trade items of dental work like commodities. They see that more items is better value. They think there is not quality differences, they assume that biological systems can be guaranteed, they assume that somebody charging more is making more money, they assume that faster is better, they assume any warning about the obvious folly of availing of healthcare far away and having complex treatment in ridiculously short periods of time are untrue, more because they don't want to believe them than the arguments themselves make no sense.

Yes there Cons and a Pro. The only pro is cost, everything else is in the Con category.

You are completely incorrect - people most certainly are consumers of dentistry and dentists are service providers in a market place.

We live in a free market capitalist economy and unless you are advocating protectionism for dentistry as a profession you are wrong.

As I said I can see the pros and cons of having dentistry abroad - some good some bad.

I can also see the benefit of dentistry in Ireland and would state that we have many very professional and capable dentists here who deserve the money they are paid for the excellent service they provide.

Personally, I think dentists are highly skilled and I don't think the prices most charge here in Ireland are unreasonable.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Christ I give up..........

Here is why healthcare is not a consumer product
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_asymmetry
If you understand great, if you don't then you actually prove the point.

Hillmanhunter1

Adan Petite Crate wrote: »

Christ I give up..........

Here is why healthcare is not a consumer product
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_asymmetry
If you understand great, if you don't then you actually prove the point.

Information asymmetry is very clearly a feature of the market for dental services, dentists obviously know more about dentistry that their patients, and the patients do not have the time or the training to acquire that information. Left to its own devices this results in market failure - the failure to deliver services (or goods) in an efficient manner.

The remedy for information asymmetry is independent regulation of the delivery of services (and here we're talking about market conduct rather that clinical standards), and the provision of appropriate consumer information in plain English (as opposed to disclosure, which is an entirely different concept). That is essentially what was recommended in the Competition Authority report cited by circ in post #42. Many of the key recommendations have not been addressed.

Hillmanhunter1

BryanL wrote: »

€6,000 for Overdenture case?????

Wow, that was not cheap, if anyone has more quotes like that from abroad why don't you post them on here before you travel and see how much you might save by not traveling?

Bryan

If you read over all the posts in this thread you will not find anyone, myself included, looking for or recommending cheap treatments. I have only said that I was happy with the price. I have not compared it to the prices that Irish dentists might charge for the same work. I notice that the dentists that post on this forum appear to be reluctant to post the prices that they would have charged.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Hillmanhunter1 wrote: »

the provision of appropriate consumer information in plain English

I and the other dentists on here have been giving out appropriate consumer information in English for years. However this thread proves that people only take the advice they want to take.

Clinical Standards are what needs to be regulated, not market standards in fact its the only thing that really matters. Also some form of pan European way to get legal recourse against malpractice is required. The Bologna Process acknowledges that academic standards are not the same across europe and need to be standardized.

I suppose what been show in this thread is that the OP ignored the advice on here, did his own research and went off (as is his right of course). He received a technically poor and outdated treatment plan in a short space of time for an excessive cost, which has not address any of his underlying issues. Anyone who want the details of where he got this service can PM him.

BryanL

Hillmanhunter1 wrote: »

If you read over all the posts in this thread you will not find anyone, myself included, looking for or recommending cheap treatments. I have only said that I was happy with the price. I have not compared it to the prices that Irish dentists might charge for the same work. I notice that the dentists that post on this forum appear to be reluctant to post the prices that they would have charged.

14-04-2010, 01:07 #5
Hillmanhunter1


From what I can tell the cost of the work that I need done would be around €20k in Ireland.

I will have this work done abroad, and at a fraction of the cost.

Big_G

Hillmanhunter1 wrote: »

Information asymmetry is very clearly a feature of the market for dental services, dentists obviously know more about dentistry that their patients, and the patients do not have the time or the training to acquire that information. Left to its own devices this results in market failure - the failure to deliver services (or goods) in an efficient manner.

The remedy for information asymmetry is independent regulation of the delivery of services (and here we're talking about market conduct rather that clinical standards), and the provision of appropriate consumer information in plain English (as opposed to disclosure, which is an entirely different concept). That is essentially what was recommended in the Competition Authority report cited by circ in post #42. Many of the key recommendations have not been addressed.

Information asymmetry is a feature of any industry where the main governing feature is that a 5 year tertiary education is required to provide services. No amount of laymans language is ever going to change that.

You cannot apply normal market rules to an information asymmetry. When you apply the concept of supply and demand, cost becomes a determinant of outcome. As prices fall, quality falls because the provider still wants to make the same income. See UK NHS for an example of this. Furthermore, if you want to extend this idea you introduce the concept of corporatisation which also reduces quality because cost is the primary determinant of treatment provision. You cannot rely on the altruistic nature of the corporate body and the dentists engaged by same at below market value to provide the same level of service as they would do under a private fee-for-service set up.

The dental market already equilibrates itself significantly. What is poorly understood and not mentioned at all in the above report is the cost of providing the service. If costs of providing the service stay the same and costs of purchasing the service continue to go down, the dentist will need to provide more service items to maintain income. That means that less time is spent on each item and quality suffers. If you ask the dentist to take a cut in income he will emigrate (as I have done) or you will see a fall in numbers of people going in to dentistry which results in a reduction in the quality of graduate coming out of tertiary education. All in all, not a pretty picture.

I might point out that a lot of dentists have been fairly altruistic in the recent past maintaining their support of the medical card scheme, for little thanks and plenty of abuse.

I do agree that some market regulation is required, but if you want an application of free-market economics (which first is probably not wholly appropriate to an information asymmetry) you may be surprised to find that prices go up. I don't believe that some form of free market is operating in dentistry in Ireland. We've seen a reduction in demand and a corresponding reduction in prices and workforce. What you're looking for is total transparency which also does not exist in a free market. When was the last time you saw MacDonalds putting up on their menu how much it costs them to make the burgers? If you think you can get a burger cheaper, then buy it cheaper. Nobody's stopping you. MacDonalds might be more expensive than the local chipper over the road (unlikely) but is the quality of ingredients and standards of hygiene the same? Is everyone paid a fair and legal wage? Does the local chipper operate in a county with a lower cost economy in general (lower wages etc)? Are you really comparing like with like? Everybody thinks so, but only the guy with the knowledge of the industry knows the truth. That is an information asymmetry. Would I as a dentist ever have my teeth or my families teeth done (hypothetically) in Budapest or Ankara - hell no. And I'm on the knowledgable side of the asymmetry.

Hillmanhunter1

BryanL wrote: »

14-04-2010, 01:07 #5
Hillmanhunter1


From what I can tell the cost of the work that I need done would be around €20k in Ireland.

I will have this work done abroad, and at a fraction of the cost.

I'm quite happy to acknowledge that the estimate that I made in April 2010 is not relevant to the treatment that I received at the end of 2010/start of 2011. I had originally thought that implants might be a possibility and my estimate, at that time, was based on that assumption. As I have said earlier in this thread I was not considered suitable for implants because of gum disease, and so a different treatment plan was recommended and implemented.

I have posted details of that treatment plan and the prices that I paid. In relation to that treatment plan I therefore assume you will agree that I have not compared it to the prices that Irish dentists might charge for the same work.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Big_G nice post there, however I think it will fall on the deaf ears of the knowledgeable ignorant. See my post here to see if thats you here

Hillmanhunter1 I am appalled you were told that, gum disease (periodontal disease) is a contraindication to dental implants, it most certainly is not, you were not considered suitable for implant because there wasn't enough time during your brief trips or your budget wouldn't allow them. Dental implant were invented for people like yourself. The truth is you have lost a bunch of bone since the extractions that could have been used to stabilise implants. I know this is all new to you and you cannot be expected to now all these things, however the problem is you have assumed that the dentist has your best interest at heart. This is the same old story I see again and again and again, its become so normal that I can predict it as soon as a thread starts. And look here we are.

circ

BigG

With respect, the contents of your last post comprises a convoluted and spurious application of economic theory that has little if any credibility; other than to imply that you may be trying to confuse the reader - or to convince yourself - into believing that the profession of dentistry somehow isn’t, or shouldn’t be, subject to market forces in a capitalist society?

From what I have read on this forum there is a clear resistance to change among dentistry in Ireland and protectionism of the profession is preferred over marketing when faced with changing consumer demands at home and competition from abroad.

The irony is that such attempts at protectionism by Irish dentistry is actually the best marketing tool for competitors abroad.