DART+ (DART Expansion)

Grandeeod · 07-02-2020 9:02pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

dont built it when times are "bad" when it would be far cheaper to build and we could keep skilled people here, because we dont have the money. The good times come, dont build it, because its more expensive and we need a hundred public consulatations, before the **** all comes crashing back down again :rolleyes::mad:

I'm working in London now. While it has its problems, its a fooking joy on PT compared to Dublin. If Dublin had a minute fraction of what London has (and that's all it needs.) it could be a joy too.

I haven't got a seat on a bus or tube, but so what. It works.

Shedite27 · 07-02-2020 9:19pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

I am assuming they are talking about reopening North Wall station? I didn't realise this was being considered seriously. I certainly hope it is.

I had it in my head that this was part of the Salesforce plans going in there (ie that Salesforce were footing the bill so that their new HQ would have a dart station), but I can;t find anything about it online. Did I dream that up?

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/property/first-look-dublins-newest-urban-15697223

CatInABox · 07-02-2020 10:09pm

Shedite27 wrote: »

I had it in my head that this was part of the Salesforce plans going in there (ie that Salesforce were footing the bill so that their new HQ would have a dart station), but I can;t find anything about it online. Did I dream that up?

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/property/first-look-dublins-newest-urban-15697223

No, that's a different old building. The station would be the one at the corner of North Wall Quay and Park Lane. The platforms would extend north, where the Europcar place is now, all the way past the Spencer Dock Luas stop.

EDIT: I actually misread your post, sorry.

CatInABox · 07-02-2020 10:18pm

Further reporting on the increase in the costs here. Makes the argument that the initial estimate was just that, and as the design goes on, the cost will probably increase, but be more accurate.

No one has made the argument yet that regardless of the cost, this pretty much has to be done anyway.

spacetweek · 07-02-2020 10:27pm

CatInABox wrote: »

No one has made the argument yet that regardless of the cost, this pretty much has to be done anyway.

That's the one I'd make. We have to build this regardless of what it costs, the cost of not building it is so much greater.

Nowhere would you be able to cost accurately a project of this scale. Too many unknowns and contingency required. It's a rebuild/expansion of an existing system while keeping the lights on and no downtime. Total nightmare to plan and carry out.

And it still doesn't include Dart Underground!

Tomrota · 07-02-2020 11:56pm

I wonder if anyone can answer my questions.

Are these projects definitely going ahead? Have they gone into design stage? Could the next government cancel these plans? How likely is that? Also, could the next government actually expand the plans, like include DART underground and extend the network even further for example?

Dats me · 08-02-2020 2:26am

Tomrota wrote: »

I wonder if anyone can answer my questions.

Are these projects definitely going ahead? Have they gone into design stage? Could the next government cancel these plans? How likely is that? Also, could the next government actually expand the plans, like include DART underground and extend the network even further for example?

MetroLink, BusConnects and DART Maynooth have all awarded contracts to bring them up to a planning decision. That could be €100m in contracts to cancel if the next govt wants to just up and start again.

DART expansion certainly should be safe from that anyway ai think there's full agreement on what needs to be done

Sam Russell · 08-02-2020 12:26pm

How much of the Dart expansion could go ahead without a railway order?

Could the southbound loop at Clongriffin go ahead?

Could IR put up the electric gantries and cables for Dart out to Maynooth or Hazlehatch?

Could they double track any lines they wish?

How tied are they?

(Ignoring the finance of course).

Last Stop · 08-02-2020 1:31pm

Very little could be done without an RO.

The act obviously allows for essentially maintenance works but not much more

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/act/55/section/37/enacted/en/html#sec37

38.—Each of the following shall be exempted development for the purposes of the Act of 2000—

(a) development consisting of the carrying out of railway works, including the use of the railway works or any part thereof for the purposes of the operation of a railway, authorised by the Minister and specified in a railway order or of any incidental or temporary works connected with such development;

(b) development consisting of the carrying out of railway works for the maintenance, improvement or repair of a railway that has been built pursuant to a railway order.

Zebra3 · 08-02-2020 9:09pm

So a new station on existing track needs a railway order?

(Thinking of the Glasnevin/Crossguns "link" station).

Last Stop · 08-02-2020 9:47pm

But that will be under Metrolink’s RO

Zebra3 · 08-02-2020 9:58pm

Last Stop wrote: »

But that will be under Metrolink’s RO

I would've thought it would be covered by the DART expansion.

CatInABox · 08-02-2020 10:09pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

I would've thought it would be covered by the DART expansion.

It's essentially pointless without the Dart expansion, plus it can't even be built until the Metrolink station has been built under it, so therefore it's part of the Metrolink order.

Conchir · 09-02-2020 10:16pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Could the southbound loop at Clongriffin go ahead?

Is there a plan for this available to view?

LXFlyer · 09-02-2020 11:15pm

Conchir wrote: »

Is there a plan for this available to view?

No.

But it would involve laying a track along the east side of the southbound platform, which could facilitate Northern line trains or Enterprise services overtaking DART services.

Conchir · 09-02-2020 11:19pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

No.

But it would involve laying a track along the east side of the southbound platform, which could facilitate Northern line trains or Enterprise services overtaking DART services.

Yeah I imagined that would be it. So in that case, the stairs/lift on the Baldoyle side would have to come down. Is that part of the development plan for the new houses going in on that side anyway, with a ramp similar to the northbound side?

LXFlyer · 09-02-2020 11:34pm

Conchir wrote: »

Yeah I imagined that would be it. So in that case, the stairs/lift on the Baldoyle side would have to come down. Is that part of the development plan for the new houses going in on that side anyway, with a ramp similar to the northbound side?

I have no idea. The only thing I do know is that from an operational perspective a southbound passing loop will have to go in there.

Looking on google maps it looks as if there should be sufficient room to fit the trackwork in but don't quote me on that.

marno21 · 12-02-2020 6:51pm

IE have filed a Railway Order pre-application consultation with An Bord Pleanala for the Maynooth line/City Centre elements of DART Expansion

http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/306587.htm

cgcsb · 12-02-2020 8:17pm

A pre-application for this and a micro-consultation on the location of an emergency exit. Honestly you'd swear there was a fortune to be made on not building infrastructure.

Idbatterim · 13-02-2020 12:26am

cgcsb wrote: »

A pre-application for this and a micro-consultation on the location of an emergency exit. Honestly you'd swear there was a fortune to be made on not building infrastructure.

if they have no intention on building anything, wouldnt they do us all a favour and cancel everything that isnt road building now?! :mad:

do they have a public consultation on what colour the emergency exit corridors should be painted?

Last Stop · 13-02-2020 12:30am

cgcsb wrote: »

A pre-application for this

A pre-application is a standard part of the Railway Order process. There will be a series of meeting with An BoRd Pleanala with the intention of making the actual application run smoother by addressing their concerns/queries at this stage. If anything this is positive that the project is advanced enough to commence this

cgcsb · 13-02-2020 2:26pm

Last Stop wrote: »

A pre-application is a standard part of the Railway Order process. There will be a series of meeting with An BoRd Pleanala with the intention of making the actual application run smoother by addressing their concerns/queries at this stage. If anything this is positive that the project is advanced enough to commence this

Im aware it's part of the process. The process is a wasteful load of tripe though. Money that could be going to actually building infrastructure rather than writing reports about it. The level of bureaucracy is just pathetic. In Italy they keep getting you to fill in forms for domestic scale planning permission until you bribe them. But they still don't even have this level of ridiculous for large scale projects. They love an oul report and consultation in Sweden also but Ireland really takes the biscuit with the back and forth nonsense.

Pete_Cavan · 13-02-2020 3:38pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Im aware it's part of the process. The process is a wasteful load of tripe though. Money that could be going to actually building infrastructure rather than writing reports about it. The level of bureaucracy is just pathetic. In Italy they keep getting you to fill in forms for domestic scale planning permission until you bribe them. But they still don't even have this level of ridiculous for large scale projects. They love an oul report and consultation in Sweden also but Ireland really takes the biscuit with the back and forth nonsense.

What reports? The pre-application consultation just reviews the drafts of the documents they intend submitting. There is no additional information needed. If anything it reduces the bureaucracy as it ensures that what is submitted is closer to what ABP expect to receive and reduces the risk of it being rejected.

antimatterx · 17-02-2020 10:48pm

Conchir wrote: »

Yeah I imagined that would be it. So in that case, the stairs/lift on the Baldoyle side would have to come down. Is that part of the development plan for the new houses going in on that side anyway, with a ramp similar to the northbound side?

Where will the access go for Baldoyle residents.

Phil.x · 17-02-2020 10:51pm

11 years of talking and still nothing.

specialbyte · 17-02-2020 11:39pm

Enabling works for full construction is stating on the new Pelletstown train station on the Maynooth line: https://twitter.com/RCPCA1/status/1229514141599137792

MJohnston · 17-02-2020 11:53pm

When was the last time a new train station opened in Dublin?

TheChrisD · 18-02-2020 12:07am

MJohnston wrote: »

When was the last time a new train station opened in Dublin?

Hansfield in 2013, methinks?

p_haugh · 18-02-2020 12:26am

TheChrisD wrote: »

Hansfield in 2013, methinks?

Yep, 28th June 2013 to be exact.

dahljihnm · 18-02-2020 3:21am

I don’t want to read the whole thread so I have three simple questions:

1. Will DART Underground ever happen?
2. If so, will it be the same route as envisaged in the plans a decade ago?
3. What other DART expansions are being proposed/suggested?

cgcsb · 18-02-2020 9:37am

1. Not in our lifetime
2. No
3. It's proposed to electrify the existing lines as far as Maynooth, Drogheda and Hazelhatch and bring in 10 minute services on all these lines. Docklands station to be moved closer to the liffey and a new interchange station for metrolink and cross guns bridge is proposed.

Caveat: there isn't enough money for this. They have ordered 'hybrid' trains which will be a clown version of electrification and IE have hired an internal design team rather than external consultants and as we all know under the dead hand of IE management the internal design team will produce next to nothing and then they'll have to get external people and then the money will run out, rinse and repeat.

Idbatterim · 18-02-2020 10:03am

That should be the green price for going into government, dart underground! How much would the major funnel aspect cost ?

Shedite27 · 18-02-2020 10:06am

Idbatterim wrote: »

That should be the green price for going into government, dart underground! How much would the major funnel aspect cost ?

Green Party were the main objectors to Metrolink South, leading to that getting cancelled.
https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/eamon-ryan-open-letter-to-shane-ross-on-the-need-for-a-review-of-the-metrolink-design-4094230-Jun2018/

Phil.x · 18-02-2020 10:09am

cgcsb wrote: »

1. Not in our lifetime
2. No
3. It's proposed to electrify the existing lines as far as Maynooth, Drogheda and Hazelhatch and bring in 10 minute services on all these lines. Docklands station to be moved closer to the liffey and a new interchange station for metrolink and cross guns bridge is proposed.

Caveat: there isn't enough money for this. They have ordered 'hybrid' trains which will be a clown version of electrification and IE have hired an internal design team rather than external consultants and as we all know under the dead hand of IE management the internal design team will produce next to nothing and then they'll have to get external people and then the money will run out, rinse and repeat.

Docklands station to be moved all of the 100m +/- is just wasteful and I couldn't ever see it happen.

Idbatterim · 18-02-2020 10:11am

Shedite27 wrote: »

Green Party were the main objectors to Metrolink South, leading to that getting cancelled.
https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/eamon-ryan-open-letter-to-shane-ross-on-the-need-for-a-review-of-the-metrolink-design-4094230-Jun2018/

Oh I remember. Dart underground and metrolink are the game changers. Why is there zero vision here ? Move the port , release billions in land value and use it to house a huge amount and with some of the money , fund the serious infrastructure it would need , like dart underground. Just throwing this out here. If there was any vision here at all. Could they run the line from heuston to new urban district in what is now the port and then back under the Irish glass bottle site redevelopment?

Idbatterim · 18-02-2020 10:13am

Phil.x wrote: »

Docklands station to be moved all of the 100m +/- is just wasteful and I couldn't ever see it happen.

What is the “ logic “ in that ?! Can they not generate more money from selling off air rights over heuston etc ?

Pete_Cavan · 18-02-2020 10:30am

specialbyte wrote: »

Enabling works for full construction is stating on the new Pelletstown train station on the Maynooth line: https://twitter.com/RCPCA1/status/1229514141599137792

Enabling works generally refers to a separate contract before the main contract is awarded. This seems to be a single contract for the full works. The letter from Sisk referred to "initial works" not enabling.

Dats me · 18-02-2020 11:41am

cgcsb wrote: »

1. Not in our lifetime
2. No
3. It's proposed to electrify the existing lines as far as Maynooth, Drogheda and Hazelhatch and bring in 10 minute services on all these lines. Docklands station to be moved closer to the liffey and a new interchange station for metrolink and cross guns bridge is proposed.

Caveat: there isn't enough money for this. They have ordered 'hybrid' trains which will be a clown version of electrification and IE have hired an internal design team rather than external consultants and as we all know under the dead hand of IE management the internal design team will produce next to nothing and then they'll have to get external people and then the money will run out, rinse and repeat.

That's not true? They've appointed consultants for Maynooth and are tendering for Kildare right now

p_haugh · 18-02-2020 12:36pm

antimatterx wrote: »

Where will the access go for Baldoyle residents.

I would assume the entrance would be shifted over to make room for the extra track

Last Stop · 18-02-2020 8:01pm

Moving docklands station provides a direct interchange with the Luas red line. This will make it a more attractive alternative to Connolly.

To answer a previous question; The route alignment in general hasn’t changed from the original scheme however it looks increasingly likely that the tunnel section will be shortened to Heuston as opposed the Inchicore as was originally envisioned.

spacetweek · 18-02-2020 11:42pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Caveat: there isn't enough money for this. They have ordered 'hybrid' trains which will be a clown version of electrification

The hybrid trains are a transitional measure until full electrification, whenever that happens.

Idbatterim · 19-02-2020 1:02am

Last Stop wrote: »

Moving docklands station provides a direct interchange with the Luas red line. This will make it a more attractive alternative to Connolly.

To answer a previous question; The route alignment in general hasn’t changed from the original scheme however it looks increasingly likely that the tunnel section will be shortened to Heuston as opposed the Inchicore as was originally envisioned.

can tunnel be shortered by not looping up as far as SSG ? I assume not unless there was a metro station around the hawkings house etc development now, which there wont be?

Pete_Cavan · 19-02-2020 7:38am

Idbatterim wrote: »

can tunnel be shortered by not looping up as far as SSG ? I assume not unless there was a metro station around the hawkings house etc development now, which there wont be?

There will be a Metro station across the road from there, beside Tara Street station. And yes, not going as far south as SSG would slightly reduce the length of the tunnel.

cgcsb · 19-02-2020 9:36am

spacetweek wrote: »

The hybrid trains are a transitional measure

:pac: mega lols

Sorry I don't mean to be dismissive but it takes weeks only to electrify such small stretches of track in any other developed country and it should take, at most, 2 years to get rolling stock for our unique gauge. There is no technical need for transitional stock. The purpose of the proosed hybrid trains is to allow every third dart do the long distance commuter service but recently it's been sold as a 'transition' I.e. another clown job like leaving the luas lines physically separated.

LXFlyer · 19-02-2020 10:02am

cgcsb wrote: »

:pac: mega lols

Sorry I don't mean to be dismissive but it takes weeks only to electrify such small stretches of track in any other developed country and it should take, at most, 2 years to get rolling stock for our unique gauge. There is no technical need for transitional stock. The purpose of the proosed hybrid trains is to allow every third dart do the long distance commuter service but recently it's been sold as a 'transition' I.e. another clown job like leaving the luas lines physically separated.

“Weeks” to electrify? Come off it.

The Great Western electrification has taken years to do relatively short portions.

You’re not accounting for the removal of level crossings, additional trackwork that will be required (more loops and four tracking on portions of the Northern Line), re-modelling of Connolly Station, re-signalling of the lines - all while services are maintained. You can’t simply view the electrification in isolation.

cgcsb · 19-02-2020 11:25am

LXFlyer wrote: »

“Weeks” to electrify? Come off it.

The Great Western electrification has taken years to do relatively short portions.

You’re not accounting for the removal of level crossings, additional trackwork that will be required (more loops and four tracking on portions of the Northern Line), re-modelling of Connolly Station, re-signalling of the lines - all while services are maintained. You can’t simply view the electrification in isolation.

Dont think there's any loops proposed afaik. Signalling should have been already upgraded by now. Closing the crossings is overdue by decades, as is electrification.

skelly22 · 19-02-2020 11:34am

cgcsb wrote: »

1. Not in our lifetime
2. No
3. It's proposed to electrify the existing lines as far as Maynooth, Drogheda and Hazelhatch and bring in 10 minute services on all these lines. Docklands station to be moved closer to the liffey and a new interchange station for metrolink and cross guns bridge is proposed.

Caveat: there isn't enough money for this. They have ordered 'hybrid' trains which will be a clown version of electrification and IE have hired an internal design team rather than external consultants and as we all know under the dead hand of IE management the internal design team will produce next to nothing and then they'll have to get external people and then the money will run out, rinse and repeat.

I love your optimism

AAAAAAAAA · 19-02-2020 11:44am

LXFlyer wrote: »

“Weeks” to electrify? Come off it.

The Great Western electrification has taken years to do relatively short portions.

You’re not accounting for the removal of level crossings, additional trackwork that will be required (more loops and four tracking on portions of the Northern Line), re-modelling of Connolly Station, re-signalling of the lines - all while services are maintained. You can’t simply view the electrification in isolation.

How are we doing on the bridge height front? have we got sufficient clearance for overhead cables on all the bridges on this scheme?

LXFlyer · 19-02-2020 11:44am

cgcsb wrote: »

Dont think there's any loops proposed afaik. Signalling should have been already upgraded by now. Closing the crossings is overdue by decades, as is electrification.

Whether something is overdue or not is irrelevant to this point.

All of the work needs to happen as part of the same railway order process - they’re not isolated.

There will certainly need to be additional loops (southbound at Clongriffin for example and between Clongriffin and Drogheda), remodelling to allow turn backs off the running lines between Clongriffin and Drogheda.

The signalling on the Maynooth line has not been upgraded and will need a complete overhaul as part of the project, reducing the length of the signal sections along the line to increase capacity.

A depot for the rolling stock is needed.

Connolly is due to be remodelled with possibly one additional platform.

The notion that you can go ahead with electrification completely separate to all of that happening is daft.

But sure, yes all that can be done in “weeks”.

Jamie2k9 · 19-02-2020 12:56pm

There will certainly need to be additional loops (southbound at Clongriffin for example and between Clongriffin and Drogheda), remodelling to allow turn backs off the running lines between Clongriffin and Drogheda.

N Line
* Clongriffian S Loop
* Howth Junction (not quiet sure about track changes proposed)

Prob be half hourly full route with rest turning in Malahide. No resignalling however if budget was there it would be considered and likely any associated loop.

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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