DART+ (DART Expansion)

Middle Man

lawred2 wrote: »

Middle Man wrote: »

YES!
There are plenty of transport related videos out there - for example, I've just posted an unfavourable comment towards Irish transport policy on a video that related to Glasgow's subway last night!

I'm sure there are. Can't for the life of me figure out what effect anonymous posts under those clips on youtube is going to achieve though.

If enough people do it and it makes Ireland the laughing stock - after all, wasn't that one of the things that helped in the motivation behind the construction of our motorway system....

MJohnston

Middle Man wrote: »

If enough people do it and it makes Ireland the laughing stock - after all, wasn't that one of the things that helped in the motivation behind the construction of our motorway system....

Yeah, YouTube comments are never going to move the needle on that. Maybe get in touch with a German newspaper and ask them to write a mocking piece about Ireland's planning and infra. 90% of our TDs don't even know what wifi is (or how to pronounce it) let alone find Youtube comments.

Middle Man

MJohnston wrote: »

Middle Man wrote: »

If enough people do it and it makes Ireland the laughing stock - after all, wasn't that one of the things that helped in the motivation behind the construction of our motorway system....

Yeah, YouTube comments are never going to move the needle on that. Maybe get in touch with a German newspaper and ask them to write a mocking piece about Ireland's planning and infra. 90% of our TDs don't even know what wifi is (or how to pronounce it) let alone find Youtube comments.

Maybe we could send such a request with a petition - that might get them interested. Show them the latest penny pinching gombeen plan with the terminus at Pearse and compared it to London's Crossrail (Elizabeth Line) Project. Our planners would surely look like prize winning idiots!

marno21

Robert Troy quizzing a clueless Shane Ross on DU and the Pearse Station site issue.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2017-02-08a.435

Ben D Bus

Given the nature of construction inflation (cf the Childrens Hospital), by the time the cheaper solution is decided upon, it will probably end up more expensive than the more comprehensive original design.

Middle Man

Ben D Bus wrote: »

Given the nature of construction inflation (cf the Childrens Hospital), by the time the cheaper solution is decided upon, it will probably end up more expensive than the more comprehensive original design.

We seriously need to deal with the cost base in this country - that includes the price of land and building materials amongst other things.

BonnieSituation

LeinsterDub wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/metrostyle-green-line-upgrade-to-add-capacity-35425965.html

What's the point of building it then?

Absolute garbage statement.

Middle Man

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What's the point of building it then?

Absolute garbage statement.

+1

NTA - Do they know anything about railways and how they work??? Terminating the DART Underground at Pearse - did you ever...???

Also, would they not consider bringing Metro North to UCD instead and take in areas where a lot of people work along the way??? Oh no, they'd rather rip up something we already have... Doesn't the Green Line work perfectly well during the day - it's well used no matter the time of day I'd travel on it.

That stupid NTA crowd - first, removing left hand lanes and slips to prioritise cyclists on main roads not to mention ridiculous 3m lane widths even for buses - now they move on to railways with the above bullsh*t???

It's seriously time to cut costs by scrapping this stupid quango. Just get the DART Inter-connector back on track in its entirety and put that stupid cycle manual in the bin - in any case, the Dutch have worked out design practice for cycling infrastructure long since. Last but not least, if they were more keen on providing footpaths and lighting that are badly needed, it would be something.

Middle Man

The alternatives >>here<<
OK, on the Skyscrapercity thread we have the NTA maps of the much talked about hideous proposals, but...

Look at their drawings for the existing lines - OMG!!!

They have the wrong bloody line going into Docklands Station - it should be the lower line along the Royal Canal, not the upper Western Line that goes via Drumcondra Station. They also have the PPT line going into Docklands - sure the crossover at Glasnevin goes the other bloody direction - the PPT line merges into the said upper line through Drumcondra Station while the Docklands Spur merges with the Western line - there is no link between the Docklands spur and PPT line - bloody idiots!

It is also interesting to note that the NTA has seemingly failed to get to grips with the difference between Docklands Station and Spencer Dock - they are two different stations in different locations - Docklands is north of Sheriff Street Upper while Spencer Dock will be well south of the same street.

FFS, they can't even get that much right - what a bunch of leprechauns! :mad:

Bray Head

marno21 wrote: »

Robert Troy quizzing a clueless Shane Ross on DU and the Pearse Station site issue.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2017-02-08a.435

In the debate Shane Ross references a 2015 NTMA study which recommended a pared back DU. This is the first I ever heard of an NTMA study. It was presumably done by the NewERA part of the NTMA:

[font=Helvetica, "Helvetica Neue", Arial, sans-serif]NewERA (New Economy and Recovery Authority) provides centralised financial and commercial advisory services and acts as a dedicated source of corporate finance advice to Ministers of the Government with respect to the following designated bodies: ESB, Ervia, Irish Water, EirGrid, Bord na Móna, and Coillte.[/font]

[font=Helvetica, "Helvetica Neue", Arial, sans-serif]On request by a Government Minister, NewERA also provides financial and commercial advisory services in relation to other State bodies or assets.[/font]

Has anyone ever come across this report? Is it in the public domain?

jd

Is he getting mixed up? The NTA recommended a redesign in September 2015
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/lower-cost-re-design-of-dart-underground-project-proposed/

murphaph

Middle Man wrote: »

Our planners would surely look like prize winning idiots!

The politicians and the electorate that puts them there you mean. The original plans for DU and MN are solid enough.

Bray Head

jd wrote: »

Is he getting mixed up? The NTA recommended a redesign in September 2015
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/lower-cost-re-design-of-dart-underground-project-proposed/

Maybe he's mixed up or maybe there is an error in the transcript or maybe there actually was an NTMA study.

The Oireachtas transcript says 'NTMA' twice and also spells out 'National Treasury Management Agency'.

Either way it is all very odd.

cgcsb

Tunneling heuston to pearse is a waste of money, the extra tunnel to docklands is only an extra 1.5km and building a turnaround station under pearse would absorb that cost easily. The net result would be commuter services from Kildare to Pearse which we already have. The key issue here is providing a second Liffey crossing and taking the heat off Connolly. It'd make more sense to build the docklands to pearse section first if u wanted to d!ck around that much

murphaph

Indeed. If you're going to dick about with partial tunnels then Docklands<->Pearse actually delivers much more bang for the buck and you can bring Kildare line trains in around non-stop from Heuston P10 to Docklands and Pearse. But of course they should just build the damn thing as originally planned.

Middle Man

murphaph wrote: »

Indeed. If you're going to dick about with partial tunnels then Docklands<->Pearse actually delivers much more bang for the buck and you can bring Kildare line trains in around non-stop from Heuston P10 to Docklands and Pearse. But of course they should just build the damn thing as originally planned.

Yes! The whole thing, lock stock and barrel!

That's right from Inchicore and includes the station there plus Kildare Route Project Phase II along with the proposed grade separation at the junction.

BonnieSituation

I got on the 25A this evening at the terminus 8 minutes after it was due to leave the terminus. It took nearly 15min to get to the other side of Merrion Square and over all took just under 25min to get to Westland Row.

A whole 47min passed before I got to Con Colbert Road.

It wasn't raining. There were no accidents in the area. It was just traffic volumes.

Seriously, if an expanded rail network can't get built in this environment then when the fupp will it get built?


---

I just read the last line of that indo article there again:

"Modelling is under way to determine if the system could run to Pearse Street station and still provide the required connectivity."

What model would you run to get the result that a terminating/cul de sac line will provide the same connectivity as a run-through?

Do you ever feel like you're in an endless bad dream in this country?

thebsharp

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I got on the 25A this evening at the terminus 8 minutes after it was due to leave the terminus. It took nearly 15min to get to the other side of Merrion Square and over all took just under 25min to get to Westland Row.

A whole 47min passed before I got to Con Colbert Road.

It wasn't raining. There were no accidents in the area. It was just traffic volumes.

Seriously, if an expanded rail network can't get built in this environment then when the fupp will it get built?


---

I just read the last line of that indo article there again:

"Modelling is under way to determine if the system could run to Pearse Street station and still provide the required connectivity."

What model would you run to get the result that a terminating/cul de sac line will provide the same connectivity as a run-through?

Do you ever feel like you're in an endless cad déan in this country?

The model where they've been asked to show a pre-determined outcome.

BonnieSituation

How cynical

thebsharp

Cynical but realistic.

"required connectivity" can be subjective and that's where the difference comes in. It provides the modelers flexibility to provide for a minimum level of connectivity, which could mean a 10min walk.
The thing is that the project team would be desperate to build something, and know that the option is either to build a watered down version or nothing at all. That's how infrastructure generally gets built in this country, and across the world for the most part.

spuddy

Pat Kenny had the NTA, Irish Rail and Dublin Bus on today. Unfortunately Kenny was clueless (eg: saying an underground Luas would become a DART with change of ownership to IR), and tried to cover too many topics with the result that none were discussed in any meaningful way.

One nugget of information was that the redesign of DU is to be completed this year.

Listen back here (slide to 50%).

Middle Man

spuddy wrote: »

Pat Kenny had the NTA, Irish Rail and Dublin Bus on today. Unfortunately Kenny was clueless (eg: saying an underground Luas would become a DART with change of ownership to IR), and tried to cover too many topics with the result that none were discussed in any meaningful way.

One nugget of information was that the redesign of DU is to be completed this year.

Listen back here (slide to 50%).

My Plan...

1) Scrap the NTA - waste of money IMO;
2) Declare 'State of Emergency' (well, we're heading for gridlock) in the Dublin area and overrule the planning lapse on the DART Inter-connector - reactivate the Railway Order (all of it!) and extend for at least 10 years;
3) Get on with procurement with a view to having construction underway by 2020 at the very latest;
4) Get on with the Kildare Route Project Phase II and electrify the lines to both Hazelhatch and Maynooth - all these projects to be done by 2027;
5) Start planning on North City rail capacity - either quad tracking to Malahide or North City Express Rail Tunnel - Electrify Northern Line to at least Balbriggan.

alias no.9

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I got on the 25A this evening at the terminus 8 minutes after it was due to leave the terminus. It took nearly 15min to get to the other side of Merrion Square and over all took just under 25min to get to Westland Row.

A whole 47min passed before I got to Con Colbert Road.

It wasn't raining. There were no accidents in the area. It was just traffic volumes.

Seriously, if an expanded rail network can't get built in this environment then when the fupp will it get built?


---

I just read the last line of that indo article there again:

"Modelling is under way to determine if the system could run to Pearse Street station and still provide the required connectivity."

What model would you run to get the result that a terminating/cul de sac line will provide the same connectivity as a run-through?

Do you ever feel like you're in an endless bad dream in this country?

Modelling can be used to demonstrate that an idea is a big steaming pile of poo without having to endure the lingering smell of the poo. I'm hoping this is what's happening, that IE/TFI/Whoever return to the government and say we really liked your cost cutting ideas but when we ran them through our model, computer says no.

Grandeeod

alias no.9 wrote: »

Modelling can be used to demonstrate that an idea is a big steaming pile of poo without having to endure the lingering smell of the poo. I'm hoping this is what's happening, that IE/TFI/Whoever return to the government and say we really liked your cost cutting ideas but when we ran them through our model, computer says no.

I think thats what anyone interested in DU will be hoping for. However, the history of rail development in this country suggests we may yet witness another serious attempt to kick the can down the road.

liamog

Maybe the models will show that not only are the new plans so bad, but the old ones were also underspecced so we're going to need more time to design for the extra capacity.

Job Done, kicked the can.

Middle Man

Grandeeod wrote: »

I think thats what anyone interested in DU will be hoping for. However, the history of rail development in this country suggests we may yet witness another serious attempt to kick the can down the road.

When the M50 Upgrade was first planned, a recession hit in 2001 and they tried to scale back, so the redesign process got underway - what actually happened was that it got scaled back a bit and was then gradually scaled up again until we ended up with more or less, the same spec as per the original design - just a few different ramp layouts, but the same spec. The Red Cow Interchange is a prime example - original design proposed free flow connections for most movements before a substitute design saw an inferior 3 level layout with many movements signalled controlled - that included the Luas line. Of course, the present junction provides free flow connections for most major movements along with a completely segregated Luas track alignment - apart from an originally proposed N7 to R110 sweep to the north, the interchange is more or less as originally planned in 2001. What a waste of time and resources - if we have learned anything, we would just get the finger out and get on with the DART Inter-connector - like
NOW!!!

LeinsterDub

liamog wrote: »

Job Done, kicked the can.

The can will be kicked eventually but currently we are in the process of redesigning the kicking boot. It's clear that the boot was deigned for boom time demand for kicking and as for the can we are considering a plastic bottle instead

Heartbreak Hank

spuddy wrote: »

Pat Kenny had the NTA, Irish Rail and Dublin Bus on today. Unfortunately Kenny was clueless (eg: saying an underground Luas would become a DART with change of ownership to IR), and tried to cover too many topics with the result that none were discussed in any meaningful way.

One nugget of information was that the redesign of DU is to be completed this year.

Listen back here (slide to 50%).

Listened to this yesterday (thanks for the link).

I found it awfully depressing. First, the NTA's Chief Executive Officer, Anne Graham, agreed with Pat that Metro North would be lower capacity than DART as it is "narrow gauge". I can forgive Pat for such a statement, but surely the woman with whom the transport buck stops, should know that the "narrow gauge" referred to is standard gauge and is the gauge that many (I would guess most) rail systems in the world run on, including the London, Paris and New York metros.

Then Barry Kenny, Corporate Communications Manager with Irish Rail, freely spoke about the redesign of DART Underground without giving any indication of the implications to the level of service of the other options being looked at. I appreciate that he must toe the party line, but surely he could have used the opportunity to explain the cost, in terms of the impact to the whole network, of the "savings" to be made by the redesign.

spuddy

Heartbreak Hank wrote: »

Listened to this yesterday (thanks for the link).

I found it awfully depressing. First, the NTA's Chief Executive Officer, Anne Graham, agreed with Pat that Metro North would be lower capacity than DART as it is "narrow gauge". I can forgive Pat for such a statement, but surely the woman with whom the transport buck stops, should know that the "narrow gauge" referred to is standard gauge and is the gauge that many (I would guess most) rail systems in the world run on, including the London, Paris and New York metros.

Then Barry Kenny, Corporate Communications Manager with Irish Rail, freely spoke about the redesign of DART Underground without giving any indication of the implications to the level of service of the other options being looked at. I appreciate that he must toe the party line, but surely he could have used the opportunity to explain the cost, in terms of the impact to the whole network, of the "savings" to be made by the redesign.

I'd agree with the sentiment, but I'd maintain the problem lay with the scope of the discussion, they tried to cover everything and in the end covered nothing, there wasn't enough time for either presenter nor representative to discuss a topic with enough detail, and from a listener's perspective, I just felt confused.

If anyone in Newstalk (or other outlets) are reading this, there's plenty of content for a series of slots of this topic, we'll do your job for you!

I'd recommend, rather than take public transport as a topic, look it from another angle, ask the question: why is Dublin one of the top 10 worst cities in the world (of any size) for peak time traffic volumes? Discuss the reasons people avoid PT (capacity, poor connection possibilities, slowness, costs associated with each mode etc) to help the listener understand the need for change.

Then it's far easier to take a topic like DU and talk about it in terms of the practical the benefits it would bring to the population. Eg: being able to get from Heuston to Croke park on match days, the expanded service to commuter towns like Maynooth, the frequency with which it could run etc, the capacity it would bring (eg: # people a double decker transports vs a DART), and the knock on benefits for everyone in getting home to their family on PT quickly, rather than sitting in traffic in a car on their own...

You could do similar things with MN, and other schemes.

marno21

Barry Kenny will be long gone from IE by the time DU opens so I'm not surprised it's not a major concern of his. IE have plenty of current issues at the minute DU aside that he'll be dealing with such as the persistantly late and jam packed trains amongst other regular problems especially with commuter trains in Dublin. There's a full thread on them in the Commuting & Transport forum