Calling out fellow cyclists for illegal or dangerous behavior

John_Rambo · 20-10-2019 10:15pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

I've got almost nothing of that with the kids in the cargo bike, though I try to ignore people in cars, unless they try to get my attention a few times, in which case, I'll assume it might be important (it never is). I've had a handful of people come up and try to engage me in conversation about helmets and hiviz. Frequenters of the Helmet and Hiviz Megathreads can imagine how that goes for them.

Yeah, the trailer attracted a lot of criticism. I think it was the fact that they were behind me and not in my line of sight. This was nine years ago though, attitudes have changed.

I stuck helmets on the kids for optics. I wear a helmet myself. Didn't want to be the dad cycling along with a helmet on with the kids in the trailer with no helmets!!

20-10-2019 10:18pm

The cycling to school uniform :P

RobbieMD · 20-10-2019 11:18pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

But you, an adult, can encourage your child to cycle on the footpath, an act which all cyclists are barred from doing, based on the wording of the law. So maybe you, the adult, theoretically, can be fined, or whatever, for encouraging your child to break the law. Children can still break the law, even if they can't be penalised themselves for it.

I guess that, de facto, children are allowed to cycle on footpaths, since it's unofficially indulged, but not de jure.

(I don't have any legal education or training. This is quite possibly all horse feathers.)

The offence for cycling on a footpath is a purely summary matter; district court generally. Conspiracy/aiding/abetting offences are indicatable offences. They carry penalties of imprisonment of 5yrs or more. Needless to say cycling on a footpath isn’t indictable. So any adult who lets / encourages their kids to cycle on footpaths isn’t committing any offence.

tomasrojo · 21-10-2019 2:45am

John_Rambo wrote: »

Yeah, the trailer attracted a lot of criticism. I think it was the fact that they were behind me and not in my line of sight. This was nine years ago though, attitudes have changed.

I stuck helmets on the kids for optics. I wear a helmet myself. Didn't want to be the dad cycling along with a helmet on with the kids in the trailer with no helmets!!

For sure; I'm pretty much live-and-let-live. Not having a go at anyone who does or doesn't.

People who come up to me to enthuse about the cargo bike, which refreshingly are far more numerous than the scolds, often go on to contrast it with "those things hanging off the back with flags". I usually tell them trailers are fine, that I have one myself, though the kids are way too old for it now. I know my own family think I'm a bit odd for the cargo bike thing, but they thought the trailer was insane. It's not a viewpoint I share at all, obviously.

tomasrojo · 21-10-2019 2:59am

RobbieMD wrote: »

The offence for cycling on a footpath is a purely summary matter; district court generally. Conspiracy/aiding/abetting offences are indicatable offences. They carry penalties of imprisonment of 5yrs or more. Needless to say cycling on a footpath isn’t indictable. So any adult who lets / encourages their kids to cycle on footpaths isn’t committing any offence.

That's quite interesting; I wasn't aware of the different categories. I looked them up and they're quite well covered here:
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_offences/classification_of_crimes_in_criminal_cases.html

I don't know if encouraging a child to do something that is explicitly forbidden by law but very minor requires you to be prosecuted under conspiracy or aiding and abetting. There have been cases of parents being interviewed by the police and visited by social services for letting their child wait alone at a bus stop in England, or walking home from the park alone, in Maryland, neither of which was actually illegal in those jurisdictions, as far as I know. I think there were a few cases of parents being charged (unsuccessfully) with neglect for those sort of pseudo-offences.

I guess it's all extremely unlikely, because those cases were motivated more by disapproval of the parents than the legality of what they were letting the children do, and it's hard to envision anyone in the police or social services disapproving more of a parent letting a child cycle on the footpath rather than the alternative, which presumably is the road.

RobbieMD · 21-10-2019 6:32am

tomasrojo wrote: »

That's quite interesting; I wasn't aware of the different categories. I looked them up and they're quite well covered here:
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_offences/classification_of_crimes_in_criminal_cases.html

I don't know if encouraging a child to do something that is explicitly forbidden by law but very minor requires you to be prosecuted under conspiracy or aiding and abetting. There have been cases of parents being interviewed by the police and visited by social services for letting their child wait alone at a bus stop in England, or walking home from the park alone, in Maryland, neither of which was actually illegal in those jurisdictions, as far as I know. I think there were a few cases of parents being charged (unsuccessfully) with neglect for those sort of pseudo-offences.

I guess it's all extremely unlikely, because those cases were motivated more by disapproval of the parents than the legality of what they were letting the children do, and it's hard to envision anyone in the police or social services disapproving more of a parent letting a child cycle on the footpath rather than the alternative, which presumably is the road.

In Ireland a child is a child until they reach 18yrs. However there is no specific age set in legislation that defines when a child may for example walk home from school alone or wait at a bus stop, walk through a park alone. Tulsa have no set guidelines on what age they may be left alone either.
The test that seems to apply is subjective. The individual maturity of the child, the circumstances involved; Day time v night time etc

Our offence for neglect is cruelty to children. It would be a vast stretch for any Garda or social worker to manipulate cycling on a footpath into cruelty to children
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/act/24/section/246/enacted/en/html#sec246

magicbastarder · 21-10-2019 8:32am

it's also worth noting that (AFAIK) there's no allowance in irish law for postal delivery staff to be able to cycle on the footpath.
i do know from talking to a couple of gardai (one of whom is a cyclist) that they regard the likes of policing these laws to be a waste of time.

LeChienMefiant · 21-10-2019 9:05am

magicbastarder wrote: »

i do know from talking to a couple of gardai (one of whom is a cyclist) that they regard the likes of policing these laws to be a waste of time.

It might distract them from the massive burden of ignoring all the other laws they couldn't be bothered policing.

EDIT: It's so nice to cycle up through Clonskeagh in the morning and see all of the cargo bikes heading into town. If that traffic is your only alternative then I'm sure it makes a very compelling option. Even public transport is stuck as there is no bus lanes until Ranelagh.

Tenzor07 · 21-10-2019 9:37am

Regarding U/A children cycling on footpaths, if you go to some housing estates around the city and country you'll find plenty of them on motorbike scramblers racing around on footpaths and green areas, not to mention doing wheelies on the main road each and every day of the week...
I'd rather see the Gardai pursue those than chase the postman delivering his letters by cycling on the footpath....

Seth Brundle · 21-10-2019 9:43am

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I'd rather see the Gardai pursue those than chase the postman delivering his letters by cycling on the footpath....

1. the gardai need to be told that kids are tearing around on mini-motos or whatever. I recall a ~13YO kid from a neighbouring estate used to come onto the green area in our estate on a small quad bike. Often he would have a passenger on it and usually one or both of them would have no helmet. I used to always ring the gardai about it and hey would always promptly send a car over to deal with it.
However, ultimately it should be the parents responsibility - a) not to buy them and b) that if they do buy one, the kid isn't using them without adult supervision.
Let's not automatically blame the gardai because some people make crap parents!
2. how many postmen are you aware of that have been chased by the gardai for riding their bike on the path?

Tenzor07 · 21-10-2019 9:52am

Seth Brundle wrote: »

1. the gardai need to be told that kids are tearing around on mini-motos or whatever. I recall a ~13YO kid from a neighbouring estate used to come onto the green area in our estate on a small quad bike. Often he would have a passenger on it and usually one or both of them would have no helmet. I used to always ring the gardai about it and hey would always promptly send a car over to deal with it.
However, ultimately it should be the parents responsibility - a) not to buy them and b) that if they do buy one, the kid isn't using them without adult supervision.
Let's not automatically blame the gardai because some people make crap parents!

The Gardai do know that these kids are tearing around estates on scramblers, but from the sounds of it you must live in a very nice estate! And after all it is the Gardai's duty to ensure public safety and the law is upheld.

Seth Brundle wrote: »

2. how many postmen are you aware of that have been chased by the gardai for riding their bike on the path?

You've missed the point entirely! I was responding to the statement made by a previous poster in relation to Gardai enforcing all the applicable laws so read back before responding?

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's also worth noting that (AFAIK) there's no allowance in irish law for postal delivery staff to be able to cycle on the footpath.
i do know from talking to a couple of gardai (one of whom is a cyclist) that they regard the likes of policing these laws to be a waste of time.

PostWoke · 21-10-2019 9:58am

Suppose you can mention it but if they get uppity about it, let natural selection take its' course.

cdaly_ · 21-10-2019 10:17am

Captain Slow IRL wrote: »

By that logic, I should be able to drive my car on the footpath provided I do it slowly.

It's commonly done on Griffith Ave where there's a very wide footpath behind a row of trees. I've seen drivers use this to bypass traffic queues to get from their houses to the traffic light 100m down the road...

LeChienMefiant · 21-10-2019 10:21am

Tenzor07 wrote: »

The Gardai do know that these kids are tearing around estates on scramblers, but from the sounds of it you must live in a very nice estate! And after all it is the Gardai's duty to ensure public safety and the law is upheld.

Gardai have been told to not engage scramblers because it they chase them and an accident happens they become responsible.

Tenzor07 · 21-10-2019 10:52am

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

Gardai have been told to not engage scramblers because it they chase them and an accident happens they become responsible.

Some tactical contact with Gardai vehicles and these scramblers may solve this issue like they have in parts of the UK..

Kaisr Sose · 21-10-2019 11:40am

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

Gardai have been told to not engage scramblers because it they chase them and an accident happens they become responsible.

Next we will have the GRA saying it is dangerous for their members to tackle crime in case they or the public get hurt. Anything to avoid having effective policing the minor stuff.

LeChienMefiant · 21-10-2019 11:41am

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Some tactical contact with Gardai vehicles and these scramblers may solve this issue like they have in parts of the UK..

You're talking about children TBF.

Tenzor07 · 21-10-2019 11:56am

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

You're talking about children TBF.

Not all are under the legal age of criminal responsibility, and most are big enough to cause serious injury to the public and property damage also, i'm sure the Gardai know how to engage tactically with them, so no need to get all dramatic about it...

magicbastarder · 21-10-2019 12:15pm

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Next we will have the GRA saying it is dangerous for their members to tackle crime in case they or the public get hurt. Anything to avoid having effective policing the minor stuff.

it's relatively common practice - AFAIK - for police forces to not engage in high speed car chases due to the danger it can expose innocent bystanders too. i'm not sure what protocols the gardai have in relation to this, though.

Ray Palmer · 21-10-2019 12:21pm

ted1 wrote: »

.. he got distracted by your shouting and took his eye if the road to talk to you.

He was cycling straight into the path of cars and wasn't paying attention to the traffic. It was a t junction and the lights had gone green for the traffic to join the road..he didn't know the junction

AndrewJRenko · 21-10-2019 2:56pm

cdaly_ wrote: »

It's commonly done on Griffith Ave where there's a very wide footpath behind a row of trees. I've seen drivers use this to bypass traffic queues to get from their houses to the traffic light 100m down the road...

It's also commonly done by all the cars, vans and trucks we see parked on pavements all the time, assuming that they haven't been dropped in by helicopter.

RobbieMD · 21-10-2019 3:00pm

Tenzor07 wrote: »

The Gardai do know that these kids are tearing around estates on scramblers, but from the sounds of it you must live in a very nice estate! And after all it is the Gardai's duty to ensure public safety and the law is upheld.

You've missed the point entirely! I was responding to the statement made by a previous poster in relation to Gardai enforcing all the applicable laws so read back before responding?

But the public’s safety is at more risk with Gardai pursuing lads on scramblers. They don’t just pull over and stop. They’ll take risks that are unacceptable. There is no Garda policy on pursuing scramblers or even cars for that matter.

There are very few garda drivers trained to do tactical stops and they’re ERU members generally stopping gunmen heading to shoot someone. Maybe in the next 20yrs Ireland will follow the MET and develop a policy.

As it stands any Garda member who rams a scrambler can expect to be prosecuted for dangerous driving causing serious bodily harm. The blue lights and sirens offer zero protection. I genuinely don’t know why any Garda uses lights and sirens in any circumstance, except when stationary at a traffic collision maybe.

What a lot of people don’t appreciate is all our emergency services drive emergency services vehicles on their own private licence. The recent Garda prosecuted in Clondalkin for dangerous driving causing death should’ve been the wake up call for all Gardai to stop driving on response.

LeChienMefiant · 21-10-2019 3:03pm

RobbieMD wrote: »

There are very few garda drivers trained to do tactical stops and they’re ERU members generally stopping gunmen heading to shoot someone. Maybe in the next 20yrs Ireland will follow the MET and develop a policy.

Do Gardai have stinger devices?

RobbieMD · 21-10-2019 3:25pm

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

Do Gardai have stinger devices?

Yeah but not allowed for scramblers or motorcycles.

Effects · 21-10-2019 3:31pm

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

Do Gardai have stinger devices?

Even when they carry them, they still need special permission from their superior before they can use them.

Kaisr Sose · 21-10-2019 4:55pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's relatively common practice - AFAIK - for police forces to not engage in high speed car chases due to the danger it can expose innocent bystanders too. i'm not sure what protocols the gardai have in relation to this, though.

I had a feeling someone would come back with that and it's very valid. I mean as a general reason for not tackling even the minor stuff for fear they may get injured. On the front line, risk is part of the job.

In the UK they have had to adopt tactical contact to thwart thefts using mopeds and also other vehicle intercepts. Moped enabled theft has since halved. They seem way ahead in terms of tactical response in the UK. Their scale helps but it is more than that. Technology wise they are way ahead. Meanwhile, technology or progressive solutions and laws do not seem to work effectively here....

Anus Von Skidmark · 21-10-2019 5:37pm

I for one would support enshrining in law the right of the Gardaí to use their cars to ram scrambler-mounted scrotes, and to hell with whatever might happen to said scrotes.

Seth Brundle · 21-10-2019 5:50pm

Anus Von Skidmark wrote: »

I for one would support enshrining in law the right of the Gardaí to use their cars to ram scrambler-mounted scrotes, and to hell with whatever might happen to said scrotes.

...and the innocent pedestrian pushing a pram is just acceptable collateral damage?

eeeee · 21-10-2019 5:58pm

MOD NOTE: Some Off topic posts deleted.
Back on topic now please, any further OT posts will be deleted

Moflojo · 21-10-2019 6:23pm

RobbieMD wrote: »

What a lot of people don’t appreciate is all our emergency services drive emergency services vehicles on their own private licence. The recent Garda prosecuted in Clondalkin for dangerous driving causing death should’ve been the wake up call for all Gardai to stop driving on response.

Recent Guardian long read about the dangers of police chases, and how the risks vastly outweigh the rewards:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/jul/02/deaths-uk-police-pursuits-chases

AndrewJRenko · 21-10-2019 7:15pm

RobbieMD wrote: »

As it stands any Garda member who rams a scrambler can expect to be prosecuted for dangerous driving causing serious bodily harm. The blue lights and sirens offer zero protection. I genuinely don’t know why any Garda uses lights and sirens in any circumstance, except when stationary at a traffic collision maybe.

What a lot of people don’t appreciate is all our emergency services drive emergency services vehicles on their own private licence. The recent Garda prosecuted in Clondalkin for dangerous driving causing death should’ve been the wake up call for all Gardai to stop driving on response.

They have the legal protection of the exemption from the Road Traffic Acts 'where necessary for the performance of duties', right?

RobbieMD · 21-10-2019 7:29pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

They have the legal protection of the exemption from the Road Traffic Acts 'where necessary for the performance of duties', right?

That section of the road traffic act that exempts in the course of their duties also contains caveats. They can still be prosecuted for sections 51(a) 52 and 53. They’re the offences of driving without reasonable consideration, careless driving and dangerous driving. And of course for drunken driving and drunk in charge.
That garda convicted earlier this year was trained to drive with lights and sirens. He was still prosecuted and convicted of dangerous driving causing death. He was going at 56kmph to a confirmed robbery of a service station if my memory is correct.

tdf7187 · 21-10-2019 7:31pm

Passed a woman (while cycling) cycling with no lights and not even one of those yellow jackets a few minutes ago. Must admit was tempted to shout "get some lights" at her.

Time · 21-10-2019 7:43pm

tdf7187 wrote: »

Passed a woman (while cycling) cycling with no lights and not even one of those yellow jackets a few minutes ago. Must admit was tempted to shout "get some lights" at her.

I nearly hit someone at the junction of south circular road and dolphins barn a while back. I was heading was east on SCR turning left onto Dolphins barn which is a yield. Anyway i stopped as there was a few cars coming from the opposite way on SCR who had right of way.
As i pulled out i came within a few inches of knocking a guy down. He had no lights, just a hi-vis, which of course only works when light shines on it directly, and where he had been was the darkest part in between street lights, he'd also broken the red light so i hadn't expected him to be there either. Anyway i braked hard and he stopped and when i pointed out that he was invisible from the side he told me to f**k off.

So to anyone here who thinks they don't need lights, and that hi-vis alone is sufficient please think again.

AndrewJRenko · 21-10-2019 8:20pm

tdf7187 wrote: »

Passed a woman (while cycling) cycling with no lights and not even one of those yellow jackets a few minutes ago. Must admit was tempted to shout "get some lights" at her.

Are you often tempted to shout at drivers who have their phones in their hand while driving?

magicbastarder · 21-10-2019 9:13pm

i suspect most people are at some point.

tomasrojo · 21-10-2019 10:28pm

Time wrote: »

I nearly hit someone at the junction of south circular road and dolphins barn a while back. I was heading was east on SCR turning left onto Dolphins barn which is a yield. Anyway i stopped as there was a few cars coming from the opposite way on SCR who had right of way.
As i pulled out i came within a few inches of knocking a guy down. He had no lights, just a hi-vis, which of course only works when light shines on it directly, and where he had been was the darkest part in between street lights, he'd also broken the red light so i hadn't expected him to be there either. Anyway i braked hard and he stopped and when i pointed out that he was invisible from the side he told me to f**k off.

So to anyone here who thinks they don't need lights, and that hi-vis alone is sufficient please think again.

Same with people in cars waiting to enter a roundabout. They often end up orientated somewhat to the left, with the headlights pointing further left, and someone approaching in the dark from the right on the roundabout with just a hiviz jacket is as visiible as anyone else in the dark is..

tommythecat · 22-10-2019 9:15am

Just had a great one on the way on this morning on the canal at the ranelagh bridge heading for leeson street bridge. Guy pulls in in front of me sideways into the bike lane for people coming from ranelagh over the bridge. This reallys bugs me as they have to swerve out to avoid him. I tap him on the arm and say you are in the bike lane. I realize then that he is fried. He's like "wha?" I say it again and he pulls back a little bit. Then he says something to me. Totally incoherent. He repeats it two or three times until i realize he is saying "Are you the weirdo Nazi?" Lights go green and I am outta there.

magicbastarder · 22-10-2019 9:19am

*are* you the weirdo nazi, though?

marcos_94 · 22-10-2019 9:56am

had a running in with a motorbike today while driving. was turning left after the luas crossing in Sandyford today coming from Stillorgan and a motorbike came speeding up the cycle lane and undertook me just as I was starting to turn left. Not the first time Iv seen motorbikes in cycle lanes. had it happen last week where I was cycling in the cycle lane and came to a light where I was behind two other cyclists and a motorbike came up behind me and then beeped at me to move out of the way. Both of these incidents were bike couriers

Utter Consternation · 22-10-2019 9:59am

marcos_94 wrote: »

had a running in with a motorbike today while driving. was turning left after the luas crossing in Sandyford today coming from Stillorgan and a motorbike came speeding up the cycle lane and undertook me just as I was starting to turn left. Not the first time Iv seen motorbikes in cycle lanes. had it happen last week where I was cycling in the cycle lane and came to a light where I was behind two other cyclists and a motorbike came up behind me and then beeped at me to move out of the way. Both of these incidents were bike couriers

Some motorcyclists travel at really dangerous speeds in bike and bus lanes.

The only thing about them is that you can usually hear them from a good distance away with their ridiculously loud exhausts.

Fcuking simpletons.

tommythecat · 22-10-2019 10:30am

magicbastarder wrote: »

*are* you the weirdo nazi, though?

Funnily enough after I eventually understood him he said “just say yes” !!

Thinkingaboutit · 22-10-2019 2:40pm

tommythecat wrote: »

Funnily enough after I eventually understood him he said “just say yes” !!

So some sort of cyclist with Hugo Boss gear?

:pac:

the.red.baron · 22-10-2019 2:43pm

a148pro wrote: »

Worst behaviour on dublin roads I see by an identifiable road group, by far, is by cyclists. Granted, they rarely endanger anyone apart from themselves but it just leads to lack of respect for us as a group.

its easy to identify the worst group on the road

they have TAXI written on them

dead easy

as far as cyclists being the worst

not really, its a dead heat

you get an equal number of braindead pedestrians and motorists

perhaps they all come from the same selection of individuals in the end

as far as calling someone out

well it's dick move really, unless what they did affected you directly

then go right ahead

tdf7187 · 22-10-2019 5:21pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Are you often tempted to shout at drivers who have their phones in their hand while driving?

Yes but frankly my two closest lucky escapes in recent times, neither driver was on the phone. One was almost certainly on drugs of some type, the other was just a dozy b******. I did actually remonstrate with the latter. He apologised so I left it. What more was I supposed to do, box him in the face? Hopefully he learned to be more attentive.

LeChienMefiant · 23-10-2019 9:42am

https://twitter.com/NorahCasey/status/1186910960373653504

I had no idea Angela Fahy was so notorious.

Fian · 23-10-2019 10:58am

Effects wrote: »

Found this woman mildly amusing for 2 minutes. Think she's just a little touched.

Instagram crazy lady

My eldest pointed this out to me the other day, assuming it is the same one since I don't have an instagram account. Ranelagh?

Apparently it has gone viral and unfortunately there are alot of kids baiting/trolling/taking the mick out of her.

LeChienMefiant · 23-10-2019 12:22pm

Yes, the invasion of privacy was unforgivable so you could say "live by the sword, die by the sword" but that doesn't take into account mental capacity.

Stark · 23-10-2019 1:07pm

Would be nice to follow her around with a camera for the day. Let's see how well she does in not breaking a single law. Funnily enough, I think in the one where she films a cyclist turning right without having one arm outstretched, the cyclist isn't actually doing anything illegal.

Effects · 23-10-2019 3:34pm

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

https://twitter.com/NorahCasey/status/1186910960373653504

I had no idea Angela Fahy was so notorious.

Fian wrote: »

My eldest pointed this out to me the other day, assuming it is the same one since I don't have an instagram account. Ranelagh?

Apparently it has gone viral and unfortunately there are alot of kids baiting/trolling/taking the mick out of her.

Yeah, she's amassed 20,000 followers in about a week. She's been on the radio a few times I think.
She seems like she has some kind of personality issue but it's borderline, so people think it's ok to have a go at her.
Most people are joking in good spirits, but some take it a bit too far.

Calling out fellow cyclists for illegal or dangerous behavior

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