Irish Rail September Timetable Changes

LEIN · 30-08-2018 9:10pm

^^ and an increased journey time.

Rashers72 · 30-08-2018 10:59pm

All seven of the pre 9am inbound Drogheda trains to Pearse will now take longer than today. One takes 5 mins longer, one 6 mins longer. 1 remains the same. So these trains will call @ 3 less stations, & we will be left crawling towards Connolly slower than today. How did they manage to think customers would just accept this? And why don't the NTA seem to spot all these issues in advance?
I cannot believe there has not been any negative feedback to the fact that all (yes all) weekend Northern Suburban trains no longer calling at Pearse or Tara st. Are they trying to drive what few off peak revenue customers away for good? Crazy decisions there. I genuinely hope more customers start complaining, rather than just drive instead. NTA need to be held accountable. Rant over!

Infini · 30-08-2018 11:32pm

Rashers72 wrote: »

All seven of the pre 9am inbound Drogheda trains to Pearse will now take longer than today. One takes 5 mins longer, one 6 mins longer. 1 remains the same. So these trains will call @ 3 less stations, & we will be left crawling towards Connolly slower than today. How did they manage to think customers would just accept this? And why don't the NTA seem to spot all these issues in advance?
I cannot believe there has not been any negative feedback to the fact that all (yes all) weekend Northern Suburban trains no longer calling at Pearse or Tara st. Are they trying to drive what few off peak revenue customers away for good? Crazy decisions there. I genuinely hope more customers start complaining, rather than just drive instead. NTA need to be held accountable. Rant over!

Not being funny here but while I dont know why they're removing the commuters from the loop at the weekends does it REALLY make much of a difference when all it requires is a change of trains?

As for the longer train times Ill be honest this is one of the things that makes this whole 10m thing pointless right now. The Dart isnt self contained it shares track with other trains and you got 3 (4 if M3 seperate from Maynooth) going into a single choke point. The current system itself is severely vunerable to domino effect delays simply because of sheer design and underinvestment. This is just rearranging the deck chairs and honestly it would be better off not going with this or at least 12m rather than 10m.

aaabbbb · 30-08-2018 11:39pm

Since all northern line originating commuter trains are to terminate at connolly at the weekend does this mean that their north bound counterparts won't leave from pearse anymore?
Even late at night when there's often few seats to be had by the time the train gets to connolly?

Rashers72 · 30-08-2018 11:46pm

aaabbbb wrote: »

Since all northern line originating commuter trains are to terminate at connolly at the weekend does this mean that their north bound counterparts won't leave from pearse anymore?
Even late at night when there's often few seats to be had by the time the train gets to connolly?

Correct. Would be interest in the benefit for IE to such an approach. Customers not a priority in that decision...

Infini · 30-08-2018 11:56pm

Rashers72 wrote: »

Correct. Would be interest in the benefit for IE to such an approach. Customers not a priority in that decision...

To be fair the ONLY benefit of this is keeping commuters off the loop and delaying trains outside pearse while they empty and quicker turnaround of about 15m.

Is it really that much of an inconvenience to get a dart to Connolly though and change there?

devnull · 31-08-2018 12:22am

Decuc500 wrote: »

Diesels not stopping at Portmarnock or Howth Junction so the Malahide Dart line will be busier.

But there are more DARTS on the Malahide Branch now, one every 20 minutes rather than every 30 minutes at peak time which will help deal with that particular issue and provide more capacity to help cater for the passengers that will no longer be able to take the diesel services. Also those traveling to intermediate non commuter stations from the Malahide branch will now have a much more regular service.

Patrons want to travel from Clontarf Road, Killester, Harmonstown and Raheny to Clongriffin, Portmarnock or Malahide will now have a train every 20 minutes rather than a wait of between 30-40 minutes in the evening peak between services as it is now. Clongriffin for example sees an extra 11 services a day. Since the loading of DART services will now be spread over more trains, this will free up space for displaced commuter passengers.

I acknowledge that the commuters serve a purpose for those travelling from the city centre or the south-side to the likes of Portmarnock and Malahide may feel they are being shafted, but there is a sizeable number of people working at Eastpoint Business Park who want to travel to Portmarnock, Clongriffin and Malahide who are being shafted by the existing timetable will massively benefit from the new timetable.

CatInABox · 31-08-2018 12:24am

Infini wrote: »

It may not work anyway since the trains and hardware have issues at such a rate that a small delay by one will affect more trains the longer it goes on. The current system is extremely vunerable to domino effects because of the lack of foresight by the politicians and quangos.

Fully agree that more investment is needed, but that's the case now, and will remain the case until four tracking is done.

Kh1993 wrote: »

From my first reading of the journey planners, At the moment, Howth Junction has 24 trains towards Connolly between 6 and 10am. From the 9th of September this becomes 22. Portmarnock goes from 13 to 10. Honestly cannot see this being a good thing. Whatever way this is sold, it’s certainly not a peak time capacity increase.

The morning commuters take a good chunk of people at Portmarnock and HJ, they are not even 80% full by then. Really don’t see the logic in robbing so much from other services to provide 10 min darts.

Conversely, every station that doesn't have commuter trains stopping at it is getting an increase in the number of Darts before 10 am.

The number of people that can get the train into town will increase.

Qrt · 31-08-2018 12:52am

Has increasing the tracks on the northern line ever been mentioned by politicians or the NTA?

Infini · 31-08-2018 1:12am

Qrt wrote: »

Has increasing the tracks on the northern line ever been mentioned by politicians or the NTA?

To be honest I don't know myself but realistically it's something that need's to be done at some point. The Northern Line is pretty restrained in terms of capacity with Darts, Nothern commuters and the Belfast enterprise running on it. The only thing is something like this would be a Major Project because multiple bridge's may need to be replaced, Houses near the line might need to be CPO'd as well (that could've been avoided btw) and every station from Clontarf Road to Howth Jct would have to be demolished and rebuilt to some degree.

If they want more Improved Dart services beyond every 12m reliably they have to completely redesign the system, the DU would have taken a fair bit of relief off the current system since Darts from Malahide/Howth would be Diverted away from Connolly reducing pressure there and those from Greystone's to Maynooth would be take futher pressure off it as there would no more Maynooth commuters in that scenario. Politicians need to stop acting the bollocks on this, get it built, get the money from Europe and just get it done and dont make excuses about Fiscal BS, its infrastructure it needs to be done.

As for the Northern line triple or quad tracking would allow seperation of Dart's and Commuter's on that line so that alone would help significantly in line speeds.

As for the southside they need to basically close off the level crossing's and be more forthright with the residents there. CPO their houses and tell em to move if that's what it takes as that whole section needs to be redesigned it's a transport nightmare right now.

Working class heroes · 31-08-2018 7:24am

Peter will not be happy. However, Paul will be delighted.

Kh1993 · 31-08-2018 7:32am

CatInABox wrote: »

Fully agree that more investment is needed, but that's the case now, and will remain the case until four tracking is done.

Conversely, every station that doesn't have commuter trains stopping at it is getting an increase in the number of Darts before 10 am.

The number of people that can get the train into town will increase.

Raheny for example gains 3 trains while Portmarnock loses 3. I don’t see how that means more people can get into town. While commuters weren’t empty at Portmarnock, the darts won’t be either now that they’ve to pick up the slack, especially Malahide side.

Again, this may work or it may not. But it seems like an operational change rather than a change to add capacity or frequency, as only some will benefit from them 2 things.

devnull · 31-08-2018 8:06am

Kh1993 wrote: »

CatInABox wrote: »

Fully agree that more investment is needed, but that's the case now, and will remain the case until four tracking is done.

Conversely, every station that doesn't have commuter trains stopping at it is getting an increase in the number of Darts before 10 am.

The number of people that can get the train into town will increase.

Raheny for example gains 3 trains while Portmarnock loses 3. I don’t see how that means more people can get into town. While commuters weren’t empty at Portmarnock, the darts won’t be either now that they’ve to pick up the slack, especially Malahide side.

Again, this may work or it may not. But it seems like an operational change rather than a change to add capacity or frequency, as only some will benefit from them 2 things.

But those who travel between stations that only DART services stop at will be spread over more services reducing the number of such passengers on each train meaning this space will be freed up for ex commuter users.

In addition the better balance between Howth and Malahide DART services should help also because right now supply is biased towards Howth particularly in evening peak which is a significant factor in why the Malahide branch trains are so busy which has long needed addressing.

Hopefully the days of people at Clontarf being barely able to board a Malahide train which is still jam packed at Howth Junction with the next one 40 minutes later whilst plenty of more regular Howth trains are fairly lightly loaded after Howth Junction are over.

bkrangle · 31-08-2018 9:35am

One change I was hoping for (which hasn't happened) is an earlier start to DARTs on Sunday.

I'm based in Bayside and the first DARTs into the city centre and Howth are at 09:40 and 10:00 respectively. I don't think it's any better on the other northside branch.

I'm not sure why the service starts so late. I understand the need for a reduced service on Sundays but for anyone that has to work in the city centre on a Sunday morning (which I've had to do a lot in the past), or anyone that wants to get to Howth early for a walk or whatever (which is common enough for tourists during the summer) there is no means of doing this using public transport.

ixoy · 31-08-2018 9:38am

bkrangle wrote: »

One change I was hoping for (which hasn't happened) is an earlier start to DARTs on Sunday.

I'm based in Bayside and the first DARTs into the city centre and Howth are at 09:40 and 10:00 respectively. I don't think it's any better on the other northside branch.

It's a ridiculously late start. Was it always this way? Sunday openings may not have been the norm when the DART initially started but it's very common nowadays and surely public transport should support it.

LeinsterDub · 31-08-2018 9:57am

Working class heroes wrote: »

Peter will not be happy. However, Paul will be delighted.

There are more Pauls than Peters and so Peters will become Pauls and as in most things in life you can't please all of the people all of the time

Decuc500 · 31-08-2018 10:05am

devnull wrote: »

But there are more DARTS on the Malahide Branch now, one every 20 minutes rather than every 30 minutes at peak time which will help deal with that particular issue and provide more capacity to help cater for the passengers that will no longer be able to take the diesel services. Also those traveling to intermediate non commuter stations from the Malahide branch will now have a much more regular service.

Patrons want to travel from Clontarf Road, Killester, Harmonstown and Raheny to Clongriffin, Portmarnock or Malahide will now have a train every 20 minutes rather than a wait of between 30-40 minutes in the evening peak between services as it is now. Clongriffin for example sees an extra 11 services a day. Since the loading of DART services will now be spread over more trains, this will free up space for displaced commuter passengers.

I acknowledge that the commuters serve a purpose for those travelling from the city centre or the south-side to the likes of Portmarnock and Malahide may feel they are being shafted, but there is a sizeable number of people working at Eastpoint Business Park who want to travel to Portmarnock, Clongriffin and Malahide who are being shafted by the existing timetable will massively benefit from the new timetable.

Currently between 7:04 and 9:04, leaving Portmarnock, there are 6 Darts and 4 diesel trains. The new timetable has 7 Darts between 6:54 and 8:54.

That's one extra Dart but 4 less Diesel trains stopping at Portmarnock in roughly the same time period.

There's one extra Dart on before 7 and more after 9 but in reality these are outside the busiest times of rush hour.

Even look at 7:30 to 8am, maybe the busiest time of day. There are two Darts and two diesels stopping there now compared to just 2 Darts and no diesels with the new timetable.

I use Kilbarrack every morning. There is absolutely no question that between 7:30 and 9 am the Darts coming from Malahide will be an awful lot busier with this new timetable (and they're already jammed). Combine this with longer gaps between Howth Darts and rush hour for hundreds of passengers is only getting worse.

devnull · 31-08-2018 11:13am

Decuc500 wrote: »

That's one extra Dart but 4 less Diesel trains stopping at Portmarnock in roughly the same time period.

Indeed but the extra DART will be starting at one stop up the road at Malahide rather than a train full of people who have come from many stops further north.

In addition, the increase in 50% of DART services operating along the DART Howth Junction to Bray spine will mean that the passengers getting on at the spine will now be spread across 6 trains an hour rather than 4 trains an hour.

I use Kilbarrack every morning. There is absolutely no question that between 7:30 and 9 am the Darts coming from Malahide will be an awful lot busier with this new timetable (and they're already jammed). Combine this with longer gaps between Howth Darts and rush hour for hundreds of passengers is only getting worse.

The current timetable does not match supply with demand, it leads to an oversupply of the Howth DART branch in the evening and an undersupply of the Malahide branch of the DART line.

A commuter train is no use to a person who works at EastPoint Business Park, living in Portmarnock, Malahide or Clongriffin who has to wait up to 40 minutes between Malahide DARTS in evening peak and even then struggle to board a train.

Jamie2k9 · 31-08-2018 11:49am

Infini wrote: »

To be fair the ONLY benefit of this is keeping commuters off the loop and delaying trains outside pearse while they empty and quicker turnaround of about 15m.

Is it really that much of an inconvenience to get a dart to Connolly though and change there?

Why not terminate a few DARTs at Connolly instead and make them wait for the next one. The problem is a schedule that will require 10-15 wait for a DART will happen and waiting that long is as good as walking. Late night N Commuter traffic starting at Connolly is bad for passengers especially on weekends.

When this starts IE will be busy because they are going to make a lot of people angry.

Infini · 31-08-2018 1:37pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Why not terminate a few DARTs at Connolly instead and make them wait for the next one. The problem is a schedule that will require 10-15 wait for a DART will happen and waiting that long is as good as walking. Late night N Commuter traffic starting at Connolly is bad for passengers especially on weekends.

When this starts IE will be busy because they are going to make a lot of people angry.

Darts go to the end of the line, commuters dont go beyond pearse normally so not a good point there. As for waiting for a dart, you would be waiting 5m or so as commuters can only get in between gaps in Dart services. Remember one thing, commuters have terminated in pearse and if a train is incoming northbound theyre blocked from getting into the siding and hold up southbound services until they move.

Bray Head · 31-08-2018 2:34pm

There are five level crossings in Dublin 4. The new timetable means that one train will be going through every five minutes. This will leave the barriers down around 20 minutes per hour all day, including rush hour.

This means no vehicular access at all. Not just cars, but buses, bicycles and delivery vehicles too. There will be traffic chaos.

Please note: a large new primary school has just opened in Sandymount, and there are plans to put several thousand new dwellings on the glass bottle site too.

This whole plan simply will not work without biting the bullet and building an overpass at Merrion Gates and one other point closer to the city.

Working class heroes · 31-08-2018 4:52pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

There are more Pauls than Peters and so Peters will become Pauls and as in most things in life you can't please all of the people all of the time

Fly away Peter fly away Paul........come back Peter come back Paul?:D

CatInABox · 31-08-2018 7:16pm

Bray Head wrote: »

This whole plan simply will not work without biting the bullet and building an overpass at Merrion Gates and one other point closer to the city.

The NTA have attempted to bite the bullet quite recently, with local opposition delaying that plan. My guess is that local opposition to the plan will be dramatically reduced once the Merrion Gates and surrounding environs are an all day traffic black spot.

Infini · 31-08-2018 8:01pm

CatInABox wrote: »

The NTA have attempted to bite the bullet quite recently, with local opposition delaying that plan. My guess is that local opposition to the plan will be dramatically reduced once the Merrion Gates and surrounding environs are an all day traffic black spot.

They could also go with the "Nuclear Option" if they wanted to really spite them: Close the gate's permanently during the rush hour or outright. Every one of them. Traffic would then have to be diverted through Bath Avenue and St Lotts road. That would stop their shenanigans pretty quickly once the whole place is blocked up!

I actually looked at the map though where they want the bridge. They could easily put a bridge in if they just demolished the Church and Merrion Hall if they wanted to as well. The land on either side would give them more than enough clearance to get an over pass in there. They could also widen the Strand Road if they were to reclaim a few meter's of land on the beach side and make it a main route. Only thing is they'd have to consider removing the toll bridge toll to get people to use that way.

Rashers72 · 31-08-2018 8:17pm

Infini wrote: »

Is it really that much of an inconvenience to get a dart to Connolly though and change there?

I think you might be underestimating the negative impact on Northern Suburban customers in off-peak.
Tomorrow (Saturday), I can get the train at my local station at 7.52am, arrive into Pearse 8.36am 44 mins later. Allowing for a few minutes delay, nice walk to work in Stephen's Green centre arriving 8.50am, change for work and ready for 9am.
In 2 weeks time, I get the same train, but it finishes at Connolly. Long gap for the next DART southbound, means I don't arrive into Pearse till 8.49am. Too late for me to get to work. New journey time = 57 mins.
So a 13 mins disimprovement to service, or 30% longer journey time.

Another option, is I could also get a later 9am train tomorrow with a journey time of 37mins today. Same journey will be 52mins in 2 weeks = 15 mins longer, or 40% worse off.

Infini · 31-08-2018 8:26pm

Rashers72 wrote: »

I think you might be underestimating the negative impact on Northern Suburban customers in off-peak.
Tomorrow (Saturday), I can get the train at my local station at 7.52am, arrive into Pearse 8.36am 44 mins later. Allowing for a few minutes delay, nice walk to work in Stephen's Green centre arriving 8.50am, change for work and ready for 9am.
In 2 weeks time, I get the same train, but it finishes at Connolly. Long gap for the next DART southbound, means I don't arrive into Pearse till 8.49am. Too late for me to get to work. New journey time = 57 mins.
So a 13 mins disimprovement to service, or 30% longer journey time.

Another option, is I could also get a later 9am train tomorrow with a journey time of 37mins today. Same journey will be 52mins in 2 weeks = 15 mins longer, or 40% worse off.

I can see the one your talking about there now on the journey planner. Seem's very odd though some of the gap's are up to 20m which seem's strange since the Dart's are no more than every 15m on Saturdays atm.

Only question though is why are they terminating the train's at Connolly at the weekends. It actually make's sense during the week since this would take those train's off the loop line which do block up services alot but I don't know why they're only doing this at weekends though.

Cookie_Monster · 01-09-2018 6:42am

wouldn't it be easier and cheaper in the long run to raise the railway over the existing one all the way along to past the merrion gates?
I saw it being done last year in Melbourne with the line still active, though restricted to a degree...

CatInABox · 01-09-2018 9:04am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

wouldn't it be easier and cheaper in the long run to raise the railway over the existing one all the way along to past the merrion gates?
I saw it being done last year in Melbourne with the line still active, though restricted to a degree...

I wouldn't think so.

It'll be cheaper to build an overpass than it would be to raise the line, and also raise the stations that are affected.

Ireland trains · 01-09-2018 11:00pm

On the new pdf timetable it shows some maynooth services start from grand canal dock but on the journey planner these are not show
Which one is a mistake

Ireland trains · 01-09-2018 11:00pm

On the new pdf timetable it shows some maynooth services start from grand canal dock but on the journey planner these are not show
Which one is a mistake

Irish Rail September Timetable Changes

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