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Advice/Questions on buying Cameras & Accessories. **Please read OP first**

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  • 05-10-2010 8:57am
    #1
    CabanSail
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 9,047 CMod ✭✭✭✭


    This forum gets many posts seeking advice on purchasing a new camera and accessories. These posts are often along much the same lines and so the advice given out also tends to be similar.

    There is already a lot of advice in the FAQ Thread where the first link is "What Camera should I buy?" This should be you first point of reference before posting. If you still have questions then see if an answer already posted here applies to you.

    A few points to remember

    The regulars here are not likely to be using Point & Shoot Cameras very often and as such will not be overly familiar with those type of cameras. They will still try to give advice but often that will be from reading reviews online and then passing on that information.

    Many Photographers will be using a single system or brand. They will tend to be able to advise on that system but not as well on the others. Most will advise in which system they have familiarity.

    System preference can become Tribal and advice can be sometimes not be impartial. It can be like asking someone wearing a Team Jersey which team is best. The reply can be predictable. This is not always the case with Cameras but is a factor to keep in mind.

    Replies

    Please quote the question which you are answering. If the question is long consider editing it down to make it more concise.
    Tagged:


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    #2
    oo7tk
    Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭oo7tk


    Im lookin to get a decent enough camera for myself, dont know much about cameras or photography but i know there a few on here that are very good at it so lookin for advice.....

    Lookin for maybe a second hand camera off donedeal or the likes which i can get out there and take a few snaps and see how i get on..... Maybe will pay up to 400 or 500 or eveb better if someone on here has one there willing to sell???

    Cheers.....

    http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cameras/1483208 Something like this???


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    #3
    Iristxo
    Registered Users Posts: 465 ✭✭Iristxo


    Hi guys

    Currently i have a 5-year old Panasonic Lumix and I am in the market for a new camera. I will be photographing mainly my family, both indoors and outdoors, two very small kids that I want to capture "on the spot". The kids are kids and move a lot and don't pose and don't have the patience. Recently i got a bit carried away and after reading advice on this forum was considering getting a DSLR and whatnot and posted in here and was told that for my needs the Panasonic Lumix dmc-lx5 would be a good buy and that some people are ditching their bridge cameras for this camera etc. The camera seems to get pretty good reviews and my budget max would be 500eur.

    However and once I gave it a second thought I realized that I am barely going to have time to read the manual and I won't really be using much of the capability of the camera as I won't really put a lot of time into it at all. So I am just wondering if, for the use that I will give it, and I over-spending? I do want to get the best possible photos that I can get as I have photos of the kids all over the house and I love looking at them so quality is important but since I will be using mostly automatic settings, is there a camera out there that would give me similar enough quality for like 200 or 300 quid? I do use the video function as well and would like HD videos.

    My point is, if there is a point and shoot camera out there that will give me the same quality photos or very similar for less price when used mostly in the automatic setting I will go for it instead, however if the panasonic is going to give me better quality photos and videos even if used in automatic I will spend the money then.

    Sorry for long post. Any advice appreciated and thanks for your time.


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    #4
    charybdis
    Registered Users Posts: 802 ✭✭✭charybdis


    I heartily endorse the existence of this thread and the merging of all "what camera should I buy" threads into it (and I think we should keep it year-round, not just before Christmas).

    Here are some more pertinent points:
    • We welcome polite & thought-out questions but the denizens of this forum are here to discuss photography, not to act as a public service to people who want to buy a camera.
    • This is the best resource about choosing a point & shoot digital camera. Read it if you're trying to buy one. It's not long.
    • Cameras have different strengths & weaknesses.
    • People have different needs.
    • Only you can know your needs.
    • You may only know what your needs are when you have a bit of experience.
    • Nobody can tell you which camera is right for you, you have to take responsibility for that decision.
    • You'll learn a lot more by searching and reading than by asking questions (particularly when you don't know which questions to ask) both about photographic equipment and gathering information.


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    #5
    Mjollnir
    Registered Users Posts: 888 ✭✭✭Mjollnir


    Iristxo wrote: »
    Hi guys

    Currently i have a 5-year old Panasonic Lumix and I am in the market for a new camera. I will be photographing mainly my family, both indoors and outdoors, two very small kids that I want to capture "on the spot". The kids are kids and move a lot and don't pose and don't have the patience. Recently i got a bit carried away and after reading advice on this forum was considering getting a DSLR and whatnot and posted in here and was told that for my needs the Panasonic Lumix dmc-lx5 would be a good buy and that some people are ditching their bridge cameras for this camera etc. The camera seems to get pretty good reviews and my budget max would be 500eur.

    However and once I gave it a second thought I realized that I am barely going to have time to read the manual and I won't really be using much of the capability of the camera as I won't really put a lot of time into it at all. So I am just wondering if, for the use that I will give it, and I over-spending? I do want to get the best possible photos that I can get as I have photos of the kids all over the house and I love looking at them so quality is important but since I will be using mostly automatic settings, is there a camera out there that would give me similar enough quality for like 200 or 300 quid? I do use the video function as well and would like HD videos.

    My point is, if there is a point and shoot camera out there that will give me the same quality photos or very similar for less price when used mostly in the automatic setting I will go for it instead, however if the panasonic is going to give me better quality photos and videos even if used in automatic I will spend the money then.

    Sorry for long post. Any advice appreciated and thanks for your time.

    I just got one, specifically for the quality of it's lens and full control over shutter, apeture, etc.... for landscape photography of DSLR quality w/out having to lug lenses and other equipment up cliffs, hanging from cables and what have you. It works great, but if you're not used to such options, or if you don't need them, it's sort of overkill, ala killing a fly w/a shotgun.

    Have you considered the more user friendly (but still quite powerful) Lumix ZS7 (I believe it's called the Z10 in your area)? MUCH better zoom (25-300) and lots of features that might be more interesting to someone just interested in shooting family shots, cameos of people having fun, etc....

    It also likely has MUCH better video than anything that's from 7 years ago.

    That, and it comes in a really cool shade of blue!


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    #6
    Iristxo
    Registered Users Posts: 465 ✭✭Iristxo


    Mjollnir wrote: »
    I just got one, specifically for the quality of it's lens and full control over shutter, apeture, etc.... for landscape photography of DSLR quality w/out having to lug lenses and other equipment up cliffs, hanging from cables and what have you. It works great, but if you're not used to such options, or if you don't need them, it's sort of overkill, ala killing a fly w/a shotgun.

    Have you considered the more user friendly (but still quite powerful) Lumix ZS7 (I believe it's called the Z10 in your area)? MUCH better zoom (25-300) and lots of features that might be more interesting to someone just interested in shooting family shots, cameos of people having fun, etc....

    It also likely has MUCH better video than anything that's from 7 years ago.

    That, and it comes in a really cool shade of blue!

    Mjollnir, thanks for that. So what I want to know, for someone who most of the time is going to point-and-shoot as quickly as possible, and just do simple straight videos of the family, will I notice the quality in the photos and in the videos between the two cameras mentioned above?

    Back when I bought my camera I spent 350 euros in it. I spent 250 euros in a camera for my brother in law on the same day... you could totally tell the difference between the photos, big time too!


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    #7
    Mjollnir
    Registered Users Posts: 888 ✭✭✭Mjollnir


    Iristxo wrote: »
    Mjollnir, thanks for that. So what I want to know, for someone who most of the time is going to point-and-shoot as quickly as possible, and just do simple straight videos of the family, will I notice the quality in the photos and in the videos between the two cameras mentioned above?

    Back when I bought my camera I spent 350 euros in it. I spent 250 euros in a camera for my brother in law on the same day... you could totally tell the difference between the photos, big time too!

    In the photos you're describing, no, you wouldn't notice a difference, so why pay more? The ZS7 is cheaper and does what you're looking for.


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    #8
    Iristxo
    Registered Users Posts: 465 ✭✭Iristxo


    Indeed I am starting to think that for what I'm looking for the LX5 is a bit of an over-kill. Also if I get more serious about photography I can always swap it in a year or two, a couple of hundred euros are not a huge worry for me at the moment.

    Anyone can come up with a suitable alternative to the TZ10? I have read reviews and they all look quite good although some of them say image quality is not the best, like some sites give it a 4 out of 5 or 8 out of 10. I suppose at my level I would not notice the difference either in relation to a camera with a supposed image quality of 9/10? I have been quite happy with my old Lumix in the past and the reviews indicate a very good video mode.


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    #9
    Thecageyone
    Registered Users Posts: 6,756 ✭✭✭Thecageyone


    If it's zoom you're after you can't beat Fuji's Hs10:

    http://reviews.argos.co.uk/1493-en_gb/5594597/reviews.htm

    has everything else you need too, including an auto mode ;)

    Personally, i don't think there's such thing as "too much" as you can always learn to use the manual modes when you do have some time. You can have too little though, I found I out-grew the capabilities of my old fuji bridge cam within the first few months of me taking this up as a proper hobby. I moved to a Sony entry level dslr and after a few months also found the same problem. It was too basic.

    Of course, that's great, it meant I was learning. But I needed to move up again to full on manual dslr.

    Not quite ready to go Full frame yet, but I wouldn't say no to one because I thought it'd be too much, I'd relish the challenge :)


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    #10
    Iristxo
    Registered Users Posts: 465 ✭✭Iristxo


    Still reading reviews and it's looking to me like the sony cyber-shot dsc-hx5 might be a strong contender, purely for the 1080i video mode and some sites rate the image quality better than the Lumix one. Edited to say that the Sony also seems to perform better in low-light conditions and unfortunately 80% of my shots are taken indoors


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    #11
    MisterCadbury
    Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭MisterCadbury


    I am hoping to get a digital camera for my girlfriend as a birthday present. She is a very accomplished photographer but is always annoyed that her equipment is too valuable to be kept in the car or too big to take out for a random walk and what not. So I'm hoping to get her a high quality handheld digital camera that she can take with her the whole time. I was hoping maybe ye could recommend one that isn't going to break the bank but takes a high quality pic. It needs to have 10x optical zoom though.

    Thanks


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    #12
    oshead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,131 ✭✭✭oshead


    I presume it's a surprise. If she is as serious about photography as you say, then why not let her pick the camera herself. She probably has her eye on one already.

    Btw, why x10 optical zoom?


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    #13
    MisterCadbury
    Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭MisterCadbury


    Cos if she picks it herself, thens its not a surprise. And everyone much prefers surprises. But anyway thats off topic. Not really sure why the zoom, just remember her saying it once and I took a mental note.lol
    So instead of trying to a smart arse, what camera would you pick if you were to get a compact digital for a good price?


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    #14
    oshead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,131 ✭✭✭oshead


    Not trying to be a smart arse.. :pac:

    Get her a Canon S90.


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    #15
    mcgarnicle
    Registered Users Posts: 779 ✭✭✭mcgarnicle


    Hi guys,

    I'm heading off an a big trip to Asia in a few weeks and I wanted to pick up a nice camera for myself... I am not a photographer but have been wanting to get into it for a long time and this trip has given me a good excuse to pick up a decent camera. Anyway after weeks of reading up on the various options, and more than one stretch in budget, I've narrowed it down to the Canon S95 and the Panasonic LX5... I was just hoping to get the opinion of some of you guys as to which way you'd go on it.

    From what I have been reading it seems that these two cameras are pretty much the same... I have however been leaning towards the LX5 for two reasons... much longer battery life and auto zoom when using video mode. Obviously the big draw with the S95 is the size difference.

    Having perused the forum here it seems that the S90 and S95 have a good reputation but I haven't seen much on the LX5... that could just be me missing the relevant posts but I'd like to hear some other opinions as I have been thinking on it for the past while and am still unsure which to go for.


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    #16
    peoplepie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20 ✭peoplepie


    Hi there. My camera recently got water damaged and i am looking to buy a new compact digital camera. I know very little about cameras but what i am looking for is a camera that takes photo's very quickly. My old one you had to hold your finger on the shutter for ages! Does anyone have advice as to a make of camera that takes photos quite rapidly?:)


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    #17
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,388 ✭✭✭gbee


    • Thus is where going to a store is a MUST*
    My opinion on what's fast may not be what you consider fast.
    Economy cameras are usually the slowest.
    You pay for speed.

    www.dpreview.com does extensive reviews and I believe he now includes a shutter lag comparison with modern compacts.

    These are mid to top of the range models though, none of your €39 from Aldi stuff.

    Personally, this is what I'd buy, crush resistant, UNder Water proof ....

    http://www.gatzet.com/olympus-mju1030sw-shock-and-waterproof-compact-digital-camera.html


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    #18
    dinneenp
    Registered Users Posts: 8,111 ✭✭✭dinneenp


    cameralabs site has best buy section, one for compact and another for premium compact:

    http://www.cameralabs.com/buyers_guide/best_digital_cameras.shtml


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    #19
    Buceph
    Registered Users Posts: 2,059 ✭✭✭Buceph


    Can anyone point me in the direction of what second hand cheap SLR to go for? I've been talking to someone from America and he recommends the Nikon FE2, and says it's available for about €50 near him. But I've looked on E-Bay and it goes for about €250, I could get a F100 for that (almost.) All I'm really looking for is something that I can do cheaply but with some quality. My dad has an old Asahi (it doesn't say Asahi Pentax if you're wondering) but there's no light meter built in. Which would be something I'd need, I tried estimating exposures but I just wasted film that way.

    So basically, what would you recommend, and where would I go to get it?


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    #20
    CabanSail
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 9,047 CMod ✭✭✭✭CabanSail


    Buceph wrote: »
    Can anyone point me in the direction of what second hand cheap SLR to go for? I've been talking to someone from America and he recommends the Nikon FE2, and says it's available for about €50 near him. But I've looked on E-Bay and it goes for about €250, I could get a F100 for that (almost.) All I'm really looking for is something that I can do cheaply but with some quality. My dad has an old Asahi (it doesn't say Asahi Pentax if you're wondering) but there's no light meter built in. Which would be something I'd need, I tried estimating exposures but I just wasted film that way.

    So basically, what would you recommend, and where would I go to get it?

    Do you have any lenses already?

    What features do you want? Early models will be fully manual whereas more recent models will have a lot of the auto features of a DSLR.


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    #21
    Buceph
    Registered Users Posts: 2,059 ✭✭✭Buceph


    CabanSail wrote: »
    Do you have any lenses already?

    What features do you want? Early models will be fully manual whereas more recent models will have a lot of the auto features of a DSLR.

    I have lenses that fit the Asahi system, 35mm, 50mm and 135mm, but I don't know if they're K-Mount or something else, seeing as they don't actually say Pentax on them.

    As for features, I'd want a light meter and that's pretty much it. I'm trying to keep this cheap. The cost of camera, lenses, darkroom chemicals and equipment, scanner and film adds up to a huge amount for a student trying to get into a hobby (although hopefully my University's Photo Society's darkroom will be repaired soon.) I wouldn't have any faith in flash systems that are cheap and old, and I have a feeling auto-focus would cause trouble, so I don't mind going the manual focus route.


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    #22
    bridgetown1
    Registered Users Posts: 150 ✭✭bridgetown1


    fujifilms1800 OR olympus sp600 OR nikon l110

    that is my choice.

    not to keen on the fuji as i have heard menu navigation can be strange.

    the nikon has no viewfinder, but the lcd screen is meant to be a good anti glare one.

    the olympus, don't know much about but what is an electronic viewfinder? it has one.


    which should i go for?


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    #23
    schlaps
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭schlaps


    Hi guys,

    Interested in buying DLSR camera, But I think it might help alot of people out if people posted cheap reliable websites where people can get buy Cameras online.


    Does anybody know good websites for buying Cameras?


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    #24
    sartay
    Registered Users Posts: 34 ✭sartay


    Im looking for recommendations for what people think is the best SLR on the market at the moment for a beginner? My sister's 30th is coming up and the family wants to chip in together to get her a photography course and a decent camera. I know there'll be a lot to this but none of us really know the first thing about this so any pointers as to where to start/what to think about would be brill. Thanks all.


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    #25
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    First things first you should have a read of this thread(s):
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055243345
    It's a great resource.

    Anyhoo. With a dSLR the main cost is always going to be the lenses you use.
    Bodies cost a lot of money but the technology is changing so quickly that they depreciate quite quickly. Good lenses on the other hand hold their value for longer.

    So with that in mind you might get a good secondhand dSLR as a starting point.

    With SLRs at present the two biggest companies are Canon and Nikon.
    Then you have the likes of Pentax, Olympus, Sony etc also building solid cameras. But Nikon and Canon are the most popular. We'll stick with Canon for now because that's what I know best. But the gist of this applies to most of the other brands.

    So Canon have a range of dSLRs that cover cheap entry level to big huge lumps of things that cost thousands.

    Back when I started with a dSLR I bought a 350D. At that time Canon's range looked like this:

    350D - Low end, plastic body 3.5 frames per second, cropped sensor
    30D - Same sensor as the 350D, higher frame rate, magnesium alloy body
    5D - Bigger full frame sensor size, great in low light, ideal for weddings
    1D(s) MkII - Professional monstrosities.

    Since then they've released several updates and fragmented the line a bit:

    1000D - Super low end entry level, tho better than the 350D in terms of resolution etc.
    550D - 18MP, plastic body, 3.5 fps, full HD video
    60D - New model, middle ground I guess, magnesium alloy body etc
    7D - 18MP, 8fps, full HD video Magnesium allow body, weather sealed
    5D Mk II - New version of the 5D, full frame sensor and video, weather sealed etc.
    ID MkIV etc...

    The new 60D replaces the 50D and 40D before that. The 40D was a very highly regarded camera and should be considered as a very good secondhand option. The 50D was a mild upgrade to the 40D and was given a luke warm reception for image noise worries.

    Since the 7D was released the 60D is actually a bit of a downgrade of the 50D so make room for the 7D. The 7D is an excellent camera, I have one and love it, but it's expensive especially for a newbie who might not stick with it.

    The 5D MkII is also an exceptional with good (expensive) lenses. It's proven very popular so you may find good deals on second hand MkI versions.

    The other obvious option is a new 550D with the kit lens. The kit lens isn't great but its a good lens to learn with. Add the 50mm f/1.8 lens to it and you have a great piece of kit to begin with.


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    #26
    Drakus
    Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭Drakus


    schlaps wrote: »
    Hi guys,

    Interested in buying DLSR camera, But I think it might help alot of people out if people posted cheap reliable websites where people can get buy Cameras online.


    Does anybody know good websites for buying Cameras?

    If you are serious about buying a DLSR forget websites for the moment, go into a retail outlet and have a look at a few models, pick them up have a feel of the camera and ask questions of the retailer. This will give you a good idea of what camera will suite your needs and for me this is as important as price paid. There are many websites out there selling cameras(not all deliver to Ireland). The only advice I would give is that the cheapest is not always the one to go with. There are a few wesites selling cameras at a good price but the cameras are coming from Hong Kong, you may be lucky but you may also get a model that is a grey import and as such will not be covered by the manufacturer if anything goes amiss.(Look for the CE mark on the cameras label). I think amazon(uk) it probably as good a place to start as any, depending on the camera you want to buy.


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    #27
    schlaps
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭schlaps


    Drakus: I was using Amazon.co.uk and ebay mainly, the duty is a concern on buying outside of EU.

    Still havent decided what I will buy yet, want to take my time and make sure I know all the cons and Pros

    I emailed a photographer who is a good friend of my brother, and he sent me back this reply concerning buying DSLRs Canon Vs Nikon. I found it very helpful.


    Do you have access to use either brand of camera (through friends)? If so, you should ask a few friends if they can show him their cameras and take a few shots. If not, go into a camera shop and ask to see both models. My sister has always used Nikons, but the controls always felt wrong to me - even when I knew nothing about cameras. I spent a bit of time using a friends Canon a few years back and was more comfortable using it - so I went with Canon. It's a matter of personal preference really. You get people saying Nikon is better or Canon is better... they both offer the same products essentially, each with good and bad points. I would avoid the base DSLR models - like the 1000D Canon. It's a great camera, but if your interested in learning a bit about photography, you'll find it's limitations too soon. The 500D is a lovely camera but won't be on the market much longer - the latest version at the hundreds level is the 550D: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos550d/

    With regards to glass - this is the tricky bit. Normally (with a few very expensive exceptions) when you go for a long zoom lense, you will sacrifice a little bit of definition overall. i.e. a 18-75mm would generally (not always) be better quality lense than an 18-200mm. The downside is that you need to have multiple lenses to cover the same focal distance. So you end up spending more money on having multiple lenses.

    The other thing about lenses is the aperature range - you'll see the 18-200mm Nikon VR lense has F3.5-5.6 written on the side. This means that at 18mm, your largest aperature is 3.5 and at 200mm it's 5.6. So this will affect the amount of light you can let into the camera at different focal lengths. This is fine, but one thing to be aware of is that @200mm the lense is letting in much less light, so you need to compensate by upping the ISO or slowing the shutter speed. This can have a big impact if you are trying to shoot sports in low light.

    The final bit is the VR (Vibration Reduction - Nikon) or IS (Image Stabilization - Canon) - it basically tries to eliminate a bit of shake when you are holding the camera in hand (as opposed to on a tripod). I have used a few IS lenses now and couldn't get over how much they help especially at longer focal lengths.

    I have an ancient 18-55mm Canon lens that I use 75% of the time. I use my 50mm 24% of the time and my 75-300mm 1% of the time. But that's just me. I reckon an 18-200 would be a good starting point - he can always sell it on and get something to suit his style down the road.

    Just to complicate the lense situation - Canon sell two lense types - EF and EF-S. The EF is made to work on a full frame (35mm) sensor camera body. And the EF-S is made to work with the crop sensor bodies (like the 550D or my 30D - its just a smaller sensor). You can use either type of lense on the crop sensor body, but when you put an EF lense on a crop sensor body, you automatically multiply the focal length by 1.6. This means my 75-300mm is effectively closer to a 120-480mm when used on my camera because it has a smaller sensor. This makes it pretty much useless most of the time. It also doesn't have image stabilization, so it's impossible to hold steady at 300mm. Same with my 50mm - it's actually closer to 80mm because it is an EF lense made for a full frame camera.

    You wouldn't have this problem with the 18-200mm EF-S lens on a 550D. The EF-S lenses are made for crop sensor cameras, so it would be suitable for everything from portraits to landscapes. Don't pay too much attention to the above - just keep it in mind down the road when you go looking for new lenses! I don't know what the situation with the Nikon Lenses is - so I can't advise there.

    The long and the short of it is that it's worth while finding out if the lense is made for the body you are buying. An 18-200mm is very practical - but not if it turns out to be 29-320mm. The fact that the Nikon lense has "DX" in it's name makes me think that it is a true 18-200mm like the Canon EF-S lense, but you'd need to check it out just to be sure.

    Hope I haven't lost ya - if I have there is a good explanation here: http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/crop-factor.htm


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    #28
    rurz23
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭rurz23


    hi,
    i've been looking around for a few nice cameras to buy myself as i like to take pictures and was looking as cameras like the fugifilm finepix 2500hd, finepix 1800 and then ge x5. i was hoping to keep the price under €200! thanks for any help


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    #29
    pearljamfan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 616 ✭✭✭pearljamfan


    rurz23 wrote: »
    hi,
    i've been looking around for a few nice cameras to buy myself as i like to take pictures and was looking as cameras like the fugifilm finepix 2500hd, finepix 1800 and then ge x5. i was hoping to keep the price under €200! thanks for any help

    ive really liked my fuji s9600, ive had it for nearly 4 years and its really done me well, the video and sound recording on it is really really good as well. id say a second hand one would go for your budget, you can look it up on flickr.com for examples of photos taken.


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    #30
    rurz23
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭rurz23


    thanks a million, i'll have a look...though i'd prob be more inclined to buy a new camera for warranty etc...


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    #31
    Paulw
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 13,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    levitronix wrote: »
    Hey guys

    About get my first SLR and looking at the two cameras Pentax k-x or the nikon d3000, wondering which one you might think is best and why ?



    Any reason you're ignoring the Canon options? Canon 550D or Canon 1000D ?


This discussion has been closed.
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