[US/IRL] 6x15 - "Across The Sea" [ SPOILERS WITHIN ]

homerun_homer · 16-05-2010 11:37pm

5

cooker3 wrote: »

In terms of episode placement, the obvious reason this episode was placed where it was is that they spent the whole season trying to convince people the possibility that MiB/smokey was not evil. The reveal of his true nature only occurred last week. So any episode showing his backstory had to wait until that reveal. Personally it doesn't bother me to have a gap at all between the main story. It was certainly a story that needed to be told.

I don't think so, if anything Ab Aeterno was the one that revealed MIB's intent. I think if the last scene of Ab Aeterno came right at the end of The Candidate then it would have made for a creepier ending. That confirmation may have come too early in the season but I'm not complaining.

I'm still annoyed with Across the Sea though. I've no doubt I'll really love the finale but want the history of the 2 characters provided to be justified. I thought it was such a let down after all this build up over the years. If the episode was earlier in the season then maybe it wouldn't have been so bad but it's placement in series added extra importance. What it all stands for now rests on the finale.

ISAW · 16-05-2010 11:51pm

Old_-_School wrote: »

From almost the beginning I've had a fear that I knew how Lost would finish up, just one Deus Ex Machina after another in order to tie up all the loose ends, and this season has proven to be just that unfortunately but this episode was Deus Ex Machina from start to finish.

Battlestar Galactica ended in similar fashion. And was it them or lost had an episode entitled "deus ex machina":)

ISAW · 17-05-2010 12:03am

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

For 'Across The Sea' I think we are meant to assume that the entire episode is spoken in Latin. But an entirely subtitled episode would be a bit tiresome for a (prime-time) English speaking audience so they swap to English very early, and don't worry overmuch about accents, linguistic constructs, sentence structure etc.

so what did they subtitle the earlier episode with the Quan's and have it entirely in Korean?

Its a tried and trusted device for any of us who grew up on WW2 flicks.

Anyway let's go with it and accept that. given the language of the Roman empire was Greek we can assume the origin of the twins was probably not from the Attic, Ionian or Peloponnesian Greece but from the Apennine peninsula i.e. What we call Italy today, I would reckon some time between about 200 BC and 300 AD. So if the "others" speak Latin they originate about that time. I assuming also one group of the "others" are linked to one twin say Jacob and the other "others" ( 'savages' in the jungle ) linked to the other brother
"Esaw" is it?

This leaves a huge gaping hole right through the Middle Ages till about the time of the Ricardo in 1850 or thereabouts. Jacob and MiB both seem to speak Spanish by then.

tok9 · 17-05-2010 12:16am

8

ISAW wrote: »

This leaves a huge gaping hole right through the Middle Ages till about the time of the Ricardo in 1850 or thereabouts. Jacob and MiB both seem to speak Spanish by then.

Well I assume Jacob probably is able to speak Spanish but it doesn't matter because they didn't in that episode. Richard was learning English which is why he got on the Black Rock in the first place. So Himself and Jacob had a conversation in English...

Old_-_School · 17-05-2010 12:43am

ISAW wrote: »

Battlestar Galactica ended in similar fashion. And was it them or lost had an episode entitled "deus ex machina":)

I forgot about that episode (season 1 episode 19). It was the one where Locke's backstory showed how his father conned him out of a kidney.
It was also the one where Boone died after falling from the plane.
There was also a strange conversation: from the radio on the plane, Boone sent out a distress call and a voice said, "Is someone out there?". Boone replied, "We are the survivors of Oceanic Flight 815."
to which came the reply, "No, WE are the survivors of Oceanic Flight 815."

I don't think the identity of the other voice was ever revealed. Another loose end that I doubt will be cleared up.

Liber8or · 17-05-2010 12:57am

6

Old_-_School wrote: »

I forgot about that episode (season 1 episode 19). It was the one where Locke's backstory showed how his father conned him out of a kidney.
It was also the one where Boone died after falling from the plane.
There was also a strange conversation: from the radio on the plane, Boone sent out a distress call and a voice said, "Is someone out there?". Boone replied, "We are the survivors of Oceanic Flight 815."
to which came the reply, "No, WE are the survivors of Oceanic Flight 815."

I don't think the identity of the other voice was ever revealed. Another loose end that I doubt will be cleared up.

The second voice came from Bernard of the Tailies group. This was answered in Season Two; an episode called The Other 48 Days, or something to that effect. That episode detailed what the Tailies did and brought them up to speed with the main section survivors - Jack, Kate, Locke, etc

Sad Professor · 17-05-2010 2:23am

8

I wouldn't consider anything in this episode as being deus ex machina. For nitpicky fans there was plenty of "a wizard did it" (which refers to the glossing over of continuity errors and plot holes), but not deus ex machina.

The light in the cave certainly screamed "deus ex machina in the making". However, a mysterious and supposedly magical power in itself is not deus ex machina. When it reaches out of the heavens and saves all the heroes and resolves the plot, then it is. But until then it's just magic, a mcguffin, something yet to be revealed, whatever.

Having said that, I fully expect to see it executed in the finale. Deus ex machina was inevitable since the first season. Even if they wanted to, the writers couldn't avoid it at this point. Not that they do want to - they are big Stephen King fans after all and he certainly never had any qualms about using it. The Stand contains one of the most literal and ridiculous examples of it since the ancient Greeks/Romans/whoever invented it.

Besides, what's the difference between a light in a cave and "the island" that we've been hearing about for 6 seasons? Nothing. In fact it was an attempt by the writers to draw a connection between the island and the electromagnetic anomalies that Dharma found. Was it an answer to the question of the island's power? Hell, no. But it wasn't a new question either despite what some are saying.

I'm actually fine with deux ex machina provided it's done right. It's lazy, sure, but it's a necessary evil a lot of the time. The key is to do it once and to do it big and to develop it as much as you can. The plot is only an excuse for the character drama anyway.

Whatever about the way he depicts it, King does it right, as does Tolkien. The BSG finale is how you DON'T do it. In that instance RDM was simply too lazy to write a decent character drama, so he made "God did it" the answer to absolutely everything, and then to top it all off he almost broke the fourth wall by having his own big bearded mug fill the screen during the scene in which "God" is discussed. A terrible finale. If Lost ends like I'll be going on a rampage.

indough · 17-05-2010 3:06am

de·us ex ma·chi·na

1 : a god introduced by means of a crane in ancient Greek and Roman drama to decide the final outcome
2 : a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty

going by definition 2 the light in the cave and 'i know it/can do it because im just special' can easily be classified as deus ex machina

i dont think that is even the problem though, although i hate the use of it as a plot device (it was utter crap in the stand for example and king seems to know this), what i see as the problem is that we have all theorized so much over this show at this stage that we have probably had better ideas than the way the show is headed

uncleoswald · 17-05-2010 9:55am

2

Have been watching the last few episodes of Season 2 over the weekend and I have to say its made this episode a lot easier to swallow. From S.O.S. until part 2 of "Live Together..." at the very least it seems the writers watched what went before and tried to fashion something around the mumbo jumbo they introduced. I knew the "magic light" wasn't totally pulled from their asses just for this episode but I probably didn't appreciate how much it tied in to previous episodes.Not saying I would change my original negative score for this episode, it was still predictable and failed to add humanity to Jacob's and MiB's motivations. And I question its timing. But I'm still looking forward to the last two (gulp) episodes.

Marcaiocht_Tonn · 17-05-2010 12:16pm

Found this picture and think it sums up nicely how ridiculous some parts of Lost have gotten recently! Always had a problem with this particular event

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_IF0FwcmLP1Q/S8Tx0czosEI/AAAAAAAAAqY/KJLtK14CZF0/s400/4479529891_2bbab3a01e.jpg

Mr Freeze · 17-05-2010 3:04pm

1

seadnamac wrote: »

The guy who writes this has decided to call him Cecil. Just for the hell of it.

http://neverseenlost.wordpress.com/

It's a fantastic blog by the way, has had me in pains laughing all the way through this season. Way better than the actual season itself.

We should all just call him Cecil from now on, and hopefully it will catch on, and become a world wide thing:p, and the writers will be disgusted that their unnamed Man In Black/Smoke Monster has become known as Cecil.

Star Lord · 17-05-2010 4:34pm

7

What about Hubert? Bosco? Francis?

homerun_homer · 17-05-2010 4:40pm

5

Marcaiocht_Tonn wrote: »

Found this picture and think it sums up nicely how ridiculous some parts of Lost have gotten recently! Always had a problem with this particular event

So Lost never jumped the shark, it jumped the Taweret

readyletsgo · 17-05-2010 5:07pm

9

Ok i cant beleive this is 25 pages now!!!!!!

Saw the ep last thursday and i have to say from watching Lost since the first season, it was pretty good, not the best but it did answer a few things and i didnt feel cheated. The wrighters owe fans nothing at the end of the day. Was really only ment to be a one season thing. That network made them make it go till 2010 if i remember right, the wrighters wanted to finish it up in when they wrighting season 3.
Like, in fairness, each ep of this season 6 could really just be condensed down to 10 mins each, so i'd say they are just draggin it all out with empty filler so they can make the last 2 eps what everyone wants, with loads of answers. Except for the polar bear, think they might leave that as that red head english one found a polar bear in the desert in season 4(?) didnt she.

Either way Lost is what it is, you as an audience member are part of flight 815 so whatever jack kate sawyer etc find out we find out as one of them.

Anyone else think it was extremly funny the way MIB(Cecil) was sucked into the light tunnel thing? that was a LOL moment for me.

When is the 2nd last ep on in usa as i am away this thursday afternoon until monday with no tv or internet and i'll miss it.......

RolandIRL · 17-05-2010 5:12pm

8

2nd last episode airs on tuesday in the us (wednesday morning irish time). can't wait for it

murpho999 · 17-05-2010 6:26pm

9

Old_-_School wrote: »

I forgot about that episode (season 1 episode 19). It was the one where Locke's backstory showed how his father conned him out of a kidney.
It was also the one where Boone died after falling from the plane.
There was also a strange conversation: from the radio on the plane, Boone sent out a distress call and a voice said, "Is someone out there?". Boone replied, "We are the survivors of Oceanic Flight 815."
to which came the reply, "No, WE are the survivors of Oceanic Flight 815."

I don't think the identity of the other voice was ever revealed. Another loose end that I doubt will be cleared up.

readyletsgo wrote: »

Ok i cant beleive this is 25 pages now!!!!!!

Saw the ep last thursday and i have to say from watching Lost since the first season, it was pretty good, not the best but it did answer a few things and i didnt feel cheated. The wrighters owe fans nothing at the end of the day. Was really only ment to be a one season thing. That network made them make it go till 2010 if i remember right, the wrighters wanted to finish it up in when they wrighting season 3.
Like, in fairness, each ep of this season 6 could really just be condensed down to 10 mins each, so i'd say they are just draggin it all out with empty filler so they can make the last 2 eps what everyone wants, with loads of answers. Except for the polar bear, think they might leave that as that red head english one found a polar bear in the desert in season 4(?) didnt she.

.

Why do people keep thinking there are lots of mysteries that are being ignored but were answered ages ago?

The person on the other end of the radio was the 2nd survivior group.

The polar bear was brought to the island by The Dharma Initiative along with other animals they had in cages in Hydra Island. One can assume then that the bear ended up in the bear ended up in the desert because experiments by Dharma in the Orchid.

Fair enough people compalining about Lost but don't think it's fair to criticise the writers (what are wrighters?) when it really comes down to your own memory or missed episodes.

Psychedelic · 17-05-2010 6:44pm

9

Yeah and a lot of people are accusing the writers of sloppy writing for things they have simply misunderstood.

And some people are criticising things didn't that turn out they way they expected, e.g. people were disappointed that it turned out Richard doesn't know much about the island, simply because they thought he did before his episode Ab Aeterno. And at the same time people criticise the show for being predictable or obvious when things turn out the way they expected!

It has to be said though that a lot of criticism of the writers is totally valid.

I_am_LOST · 17-05-2010 6:49pm

Psychedelic wrote: »

Yeah and a lot of people are accusing the writers of sloppy writing for things they have simply misunderstood.

And some people are criticising things didn't that turn out they way they expected, e.g. people were disappointed that it turned out Richard doesn't know much about the island, simply because they thought he did before his episode Ab Aeterno. And at the same time people criticise the show for being predictable or obvious when things turn out the way they expected!

It has to be said though that a lot of criticism of the writers is totally valid.

I think it's just that Richard was built up to know so much and then in fact he's as useless as Ben.

First we thought the Others knew everything. NOPE
Then we thought Ben was the man who knew what was going on. NOPE
Then we thought, fair enough, but Richard knows the score. NOPE
Alright, but there's always Jacob.........hmmmm didnt seem to know much in this episode!!!

readyletsgo · 17-05-2010 8:02pm

9

murpho999 wrote: »

Why do people keep thinking there are lots of mysteries that are being ignored but were answered ages ago?

The person on the other end of the radio was the 2nd survivior group.

The polar bear was brought to the island by The Dharma Initiative along with other animals they had in cages in Hydra Island. One can assume then that the bear ended up in the bear ended up in the desert because experiments by Dharma in the Orchid.

Fair enough people compalining about Lost but don't think it's fair to criticise the writers (what are wrighters?) when it really comes down to your own memory or missed episodes.

Wow, yeah its good but, its just a tv show guys. Sorry i forgot about that bit with the polar bears.....

I knew i was spelling writers wrong lol, my bad.

homerun_homer · 17-05-2010 8:14pm

5

I_am_LOST wrote: »

I think it's just that Richard was built up to know so much and then in fact he's as useless as Ben.

First we thought the Others knew everything. NOPE
Then we thought Ben was the man who knew what was going on. NOPE
Then we thought, fair enough, but Richard knows the score. NOPE
Alright, but there's always Jacob.........hmmmm didnt seem to know much in this episode!!!

We always assumed the writers knew what was going on. NOPE

Don't shoot me

Mr. K · 17-05-2010 8:18pm

7

I've held off on posting on this episode 'til now, I wanted to let it sink in. I was pretty dissatisfied initially, but I'm gonna wait to see what happens in the last episodes; maybe we'll view this episode differently after all is said and done.

People get upset at Lost way too easily, have a little faith. Of course, if you're not happy after the final episode...that's the time to freak out!

cooker3 · 17-05-2010 9:01pm

Sad Professor wrote: »

I wouldn't consider anything in this episode as being deus ex machina. For nitpicky fans there was plenty of "a wizard did it" (which refers to the glossing over of continuity errors and plot holes), but not deus ex machina.

The light in the cave certainly screamed "deus ex machina in the making". However, a mysterious and supposedly magical power in itself is not deus ex machina. When it reaches out of the heavens and saves all the heroes and resolves the plot, then it is. But until then it's just magic, a mcguffin, something yet to be revealed, whatever.

Having said that, I fully expect to see it executed in the finale. Deus ex machina was inevitable since the first season. Even if they wanted to, the writers couldn't avoid it at this point. Not that they do want to - they are big Stephen King fans after all and he certainly never had any qualms about using it. The Stand contains one of the most literal and ridiculous examples of it since the ancient Greeks/Romans/whoever invented it.

Besides, what's the difference between a light in a cave and "the island" that we've been hearing about for 6 seasons? Nothing. In fact it was an attempt by the writers to draw a connection between the island and the electromagnetic anomalies that Dharma found. Was it an answer to the question of the island's power? Hell, no. But it wasn't a new question either despite what some are saying.

I'm actually fine with deux ex machina provided it's done right. It's lazy, sure, but it's a necessary evil a lot of the time. The key is to do it once and to do it big and to develop it as much as you can. The plot is only an excuse for the character drama anyway.

Whatever about the way he depicts it, King does it right, as does Tolkien. The BSG finale is how you DON'T do it. In that instance RDM was simply too lazy to write a decent character drama, so he made "God did it" the answer to absolutely everything, and then to top it all off he almost broke the fourth wall by having his own big bearded mug fill the screen during the scene in which "God" is discussed. A terrible finale. If Lost ends like I'll be going on a rampage.

Well the writers confirmed they will not be appearing in the finale

(Man am I glad I watched the BSG finale on Saturday)

blue_steel · 18-05-2010 4:33am

9

the_monkey wrote: »

would have been had the show been shorter.

No need for sarcasm, I'm just giving an opinion.

Only kiddin' mate.

ToniTuddle · 18-05-2010 11:48am

6

Marcaiocht_Tonn wrote: »

Found this picture and think it sums up nicely how ridiculous some parts of Lost have gotten recently! Always had a problem with this particular event

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_IF0FwcmLP1Q/S8Tx0czosEI/AAAAAAAAAqY/KJLtK14CZF0/s400/4479529891_2bbab3a01e.jpg

I never understood that...how could a wooden ship knock over a gigantic stone statue?

Sad Professor · 18-05-2010 12:12pm

8

ToniTuddle wrote: »

I never understood that...how could a wooden ship knock over a gigantic stone statue?

The combined force of the ship and (more importantly) the wave hitting the statue could easily have destroyed it. A bigger problem with that scene is the height of the wave and how far inland it carried the ship - and the fact that the dynamite didn't expode.

Okay so it was utterly ridiculous, but I liked it. It was a big, bad ass biblical storm. And probably not the last either.

People make far too big a deal over the ship hitting the statue. I mean, what about the time traveling bunny rabbit?

jimbling · 18-05-2010 12:15pm

7

ToniTuddle wrote: »

I never understood that...how could a wooden ship knock over a gigantic stone statue?

perhaps the massive Tsunami wave did most of the damage?

dudeitshurley · 18-05-2010 12:20pm

Sad Professor wrote: »

The combined force of the ship and (more importantly) the wave hitting the statue could easily have destroyed it. A bigger problem with that scene is the height of the wave and how far inland it carried the ship - and the fact that the dynamite didn't expode.

Okay so it was utterly ridiculous, but I liked it. It was a big, bad ass biblical storm. And probably not the last either.

People make far too big a deal over the ship hitting the statue. I mean, what about the time traveling bunny rabbit?

heh well see that's the part though isnt it? a time travelling bunny rabbit, a smoke monster, not ageing/being 2000 years old etc all falls within a nice pigeon hole of the ridiculously supernatural. Whereas something they should have been able to get right i.e. a realistic explanation for how a massive statue got smashed to pieces......well that just feel into the pigeon hole of ridiculous!!

I think a lot of us surmised that the Black Rock found its way miles inland due to the island shifting in time/space and marooning the ship there somehow. Instead we get a storm wave, smashing a humongous statue into pieces yet the ship itself landing neatly intact a couple miles inland. If anything it just serves to highlight how much of the time travel, donkey wheel stuff has been rendered redundant in the overall plot. Just complete white elephants and red herrings. Pointless to some degree.

ToniTuddle · 18-05-2010 12:24pm

6

Sad Professor wrote: »

People make far too big a deal over the ship hitting the statue. I mean, what about the time traveling bunny rabbit?

dudeitshurley wrote: »

heh well see that's the part though isnt it? a time travelling bunny rabbit, a smoke monster, not ageing/being 2000 years old etc all falls within a nice pigeon hole of the ridiculously supernatural. Whereas something they should have been able to get right i.e. a realistic explanation for how a massive statue got smashed to pieces......well that just feel into the pigeon hole of ridiculous!!

Yeah that's what I was about to post back too!

Zombrex · 18-05-2010 1:03pm

homerun_homer wrote: »

We always assumed the writers knew what was going on. NOPE

Don't shoot me

LOL :pac:

dudeitshurley · 18-05-2010 1:06pm

jimbling wrote: »

perhaps the massive Tsunami wave did most of the damage?

:P just checked out some tsunami videos from the horrendous disaster in 2004. God is it really over 6 years ago?!!! anyway.... the sheer and utter destruction is beyond comprehension. tragic. point to note though nearly everything wooden swept inland by it wound up smashed to a million pieces.

In short i have no problem with a tsunami destroying the statue but the Black Rock ending up in 1 piece?! i think a simpler answer is the writers thought "how bout this for a random cool idea, a boat in the middle of the jungle!! (and we'll think of something eventually to explain that!). They had their chance with the island moving in time/space, would been a very cool solution to the problem if the Black Rock was marooned after a previous turn of the Donkey Wheel! but nope, magic tsunami that doesnt wreck wooden ships :P :P

[US/IRL] 6x15 - "Across The Sea" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

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[US/IRL] 6x15 - "Across The Sea" [ SPOILERS WITHIN ]