Who is at fault here?

TheChizler · 21-08-2018 8:02am

jaxxx wrote: »

Jesus some of the responses are worrying me. It's very simple, it's called the Golden Rule and it's the same globally, just invert for right hand drive countries.

- Exits from 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock: LEFT HAND LANE ***
- Exits from 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock: RIGHT HAND LANE ***

That rule is just a convention and actually is thrown out a bit by the lack of an exit between 6 and 12. It's not uncommon for the left lane to continue round in that situation. Until the OP clarifies if there are markings on the roundabout itself it's ambiguous and anyone stating things for sure is making assumptions.

CalamariFritti · 21-08-2018 8:07am

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Red is wrong all day long.

Why is this even a question?

Because someone who is changing a lane has all the obligations on them. And the blue car is changing lane and the red car isn't.

You're supposed to exit a roundabout from the leftmost lane. If you're not, you absolutely have to make sure its safe.

Why is this even a question?

P.S. And yes I understand most people have real difficulties when it comes to lanes. Lanes in bends or roundabouts? They might as well not exist as most drivers seem to find turning their steering wheel correctly very challenging.

Trasna1 · 21-08-2018 8:07am

grogi wrote: »

Yes. "A driver shall not drive from one traffic lane to another without good cause, and without yielding the right of way to traffic in that other lane." (S.I. No. 294/1964, Section 17 (3)"

I wasn't. It would be useless to me, as I am often confused if my exit is at five to twelve or five past twelve...

There is nothing however preventing you from doing so if you wish. Or doing completely opposite... Just remember: yield when crossing dotted line.

Is there another lane if there are no road markings? Most roundabouts of this type don't have concentric circle markings (those that do are not marked correctly) so the give way to the right rule applies.

The do not cross into another lane would only apply if there were road markings indicating lanes. The SI is suitability ambiguous when it comes to roundabouts as it has to cater for all cases, but the standard RSA approved interpretation of the rules would indicate that the red car is at fault.

A roundabout cannot be treated like a circular dual carriageway unless it is marked so. If it was marked so it would be more like a traffic circle than roundabout.

You are free of course to argue that your interpretation is correct but you'd need a very good lawyer to win that case.

The Backwards Man · 21-08-2018 8:16am

People need to realise that being an asshole and being in the wrong are not the same thing. Red car is an idiot, blue car left their lane and hit them.

More evidence that the majority of drivers shouldn't be on the road.

CalamariFritti · 21-08-2018 8:20am

The Backwards Man wrote: »

People need to realise that being an asshole and being in the wrong are not the same thing. Red car is an idiot, blue car left their lane and hit them.

More evidence that the majority of drivers shouldn't be on the road.

That.

Most people can't turn a corner without ending up in the opposite lane. Let alone situations with ambiguity and judgement.

Imagine if we ever had flying cars. The daily death toll would be in the millions.

GhostyMcGhost · 21-08-2018 8:21am

TheChizler wrote: »

That rule is just a convention and actually is thrown out a bit by the lack of an exit between 6 and 12. It's not uncommon for the left lane to continue round in that situation. Until the OP clarifies if there are markings on the roundabout itself it's ambiguous and anyone stating things for sure is making assumptions.

Sorry, there are only 2 yield signs on the entry to the roundabout. No arrows whatsoever

Gaspode · 21-08-2018 8:30am

Cyclist was clearly at fault

Akrasia · 21-08-2018 8:37am

grogi wrote: »

Stop and wait until it has free way. Basic stuff really.

You want cars stopping in the middle of busy roundabouts???

andekwarhola · 21-08-2018 8:39am

TheChizler wrote: »

If the alternative is be involved in an accident then why wouldn't you? Stop or continue round, it's a roundabout they do that.

I didn't say I would do that. I wouldn't have much choice but brake in the middle of a busy roundabout or avoid them, would I?

Don't, however, pass off the other car not being able to use a roundabout as solely the responsibility of other drivers and their willingness to put themselves in danger to compensate.

The question was who was in the wrong and the answer is the red car.

Akrasia · 21-08-2018 8:44am

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

What is the point of the OP's Roundabout? There's no exits other than to do a 180. Are there such things in existence?

Do you actually own a car?

There are roundabouts like that all over the place.

andekwarhola · 21-08-2018 8:46am

Akrasia wrote: »

You want cars stopping in the middle of busy roundabouts???

They're top drivers. They welcome the unexpected event of other drivers not being able to use roundabouts so they can do skillz, unlike other mortals

The Backwards Man · 21-08-2018 8:47am

andekwarhola wrote: »

I didn't say I would do that. I wouldn't have much choice but brake on the middle of a busy roundabout or avoid them, would I?

Don't, however, pass off the other car not being able to use a roundabout as solely the responsibility of other drivers and their willingness to put themselves in danger to compensate.

The question was who was in the wrong and the answer is the red car.

The question was who would be at fault in the event of a collision. That's the car that left their lane just because they were in the 'right'.

You don't drive in accordance to where other traffic should be, you drive in accordance to where it actually is.

The Backwards Man · 21-08-2018 8:48am

Akrasia wrote: »

You want cars stopping in the middle of busy roundabouts???

What do you do when other traffic stops?

lawred2 · 21-08-2018 8:53am

GhostyMcGhost wrote: »

Hi All

Sorry for the crude drawing.

In the below scenario, there is a roundabout which essentially just for calming. In this situation, there are 2 lanes leading up to the roundabout and 2 lanes at the only exit (12 midnight)

There are no directional arrows marked on the road, only 2 yield markings in each lane. Its marked as 2 lanes (i.e not a single lane with double queueing)

If the red car, on the outside lane, turns right to go back around the roundabout (and back to where they started, no other exits) and the blue car, on inside lane is continuing straight.... In your opinion, who is at fault for the below scenario? The red or blue car?

quite clearly the red car

even without laws - common sense would tell you so. That's an illogical means by which to exit a roundabout to the right.

The Backwards Man · 21-08-2018 9:01am

lawred2 wrote: »

quite clearly the red car

even without laws - common sense would tell you so. That's an illogical means by which to exit a roundabout to the right.

Common sense tells you to drive into another car because you're 'right' and they're 'wrong'?

Sigh.

Akrasia · 21-08-2018 9:01am

The Backwards Man wrote: »

What do you do when other traffic stops?

OK, I know there are all kinds of different roundabouts, some have traffic lights, some have pedestrian crossings, some are slow moving intersections, but in the OP style roundabout, stopping suddenly on the inside lane would be an emergency maneuver, is not what the vast majority of other road users would be expecting and would not be needed if the red car was in the correct lane to start with

lawred2 · 21-08-2018 9:03am

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Common sense tells you to drive into another car because you're 'right' and they're 'wrong'?

Sigh.

wtf... where did I write that?

Have you comprehension problems?

Akrasia · 21-08-2018 9:07am

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Common sense tells you to drive into another car because you're 'right' and they're 'wrong'?

Sigh.

Nobody is saying that. Obviously the blue car and red car didn't see each other in time to avoid the collision. If the red car was in the right lane, the collision wouldn't have happened. If the red car had anticipated the blue car making a perfectly reasonably manoeuvre the collision wouldn't have happened.

The Blue car would have presumed that the red car was exiting the motorway on the inside lane of the first exit as it indicated it would be doing by the lane it was in.

If a driver signals his intention and then does something different, that is a major cause of accidents.

The Backwards Man · 21-08-2018 9:08am

Akrasia wrote: »

OK, I know there are all kinds of different roundabouts, some have traffic lights, some have pedestrian crossings, some are slow moving intersections, but in the OP style roundabout, stopping suddenly on the inside lane would be an emergency maneuver, is not what the vast majority of other road users would be expecting and would not be needed if the red car was in the correct lane to start with

Of course it wouldn't be needed if the red car was in the correct lane. But the red car is where it is, and as for following traffic, do you not think they will have to perform any sudden changes in direction or momentum when traffic in front of them collide?

The vast amount of road users not expecting things is what gets us here in the first place.

The Backwards Man · 21-08-2018 9:10am

Akrasia wrote: »

Nobody is saying that. Obviously the blue car and red car didn't see each other in time to avoid the collision. If the red car was in the right lane, the collision wouldn't have happened. If the red car had anticipated the blue car making a perfectly reasonably manoeuvre the collision wouldn't have happened.

The Blue car would have presumedthat the red car was exiting the motorway on the inside lane of the first exit as it indicated it would be doing by the lane it was in.

If a driver signals his intention and then does something different, that is a major cause of accidents.

One word in your reply says it all.

Presume nothing.

lawred2 · 21-08-2018 9:12am

The Backwards Man wrote: »

One word in your reply says it all.

Presume nothing.

the question in the OP was who was at fault.. and pretty much the red car was at fault

now indeed everyone should be out on the road presuming nothing but expecting other drivers to do the wrong thing every time but that's more general cautionary advice really.. and not really specific to the OP's question

The Backwards Man · 21-08-2018 9:14am

lawred2 wrote: »

wtf... where did I write that?

Have you comprehension problems?

It's right there in your reply, you think the blue car was right to leave its lane and hit the red car because it was following the proper procedures on the roundabout.

TheShow · 21-08-2018 9:16am

Red is at fault, they are in the wrong lane. If going past 12 o’clock you should be in the right hand lane.

Akrasia · 21-08-2018 9:16am

The Backwards Man wrote: »

One word in your reply says it all.

Presume nothing.

Bollox. You have to make judgements all the time when driving. You presume things but be prepared to react if things change.

When a driver indicates left other drivers presume that driver is about to turn left. If he doesn't turn left other drivers presume he's an idiot or drunk and give him a wide berth

Trasna1 · 21-08-2018 9:19am

The Backwards Man wrote: »

One word in your reply says it all.

Presume nothing.

You have to presume that others will mostly obey the rules of the road otherwise your won't be able to go anywhere.

Do you pull in every time you meet sometime coming in the opposite direction, or do you presume they are going to stay on their side road and continue on?

The Backwards Man · 21-08-2018 9:20am

Akrasia wrote: »

Bollox. You have to make judgements all the time when driving. You presume things but be prepared to react if things change.

When a driver indicates left other drivers presume that driver is about to turn left. If he doesn't turn left other drivers presume he's an idiot or drunk and give him a wide berth

You don't presume. You anticipate.

lawred2 · 21-08-2018 9:21am

The Backwards Man wrote: »

It's right there in your reply, you think the blue car was right to leave its lane and hit the red car because it was following the proper procedures on the roundabout.

if you're content with that interpretation then fine...

The Backwards Man · 21-08-2018 9:22am

Trasna1 wrote: »

You have to presume that others will mostly obey the rules of the road otherwise your won't be able to go anywhere.

Do you pull in every time you meet sometime coming in the opposite direction, or do you presume they are going to stay on their side road and continue on?

You anticipate that they will. You done presume anything on the roads.

lawred2 · 21-08-2018 9:22am

The Backwards Man wrote: »

You don't presume. You anticipate.

Is that a line from the karate kid?

The Backwards Man · 21-08-2018 9:26am

lawred2 wrote: »

Is that a line from the karate kid?

It's from years of experience.

lawred2 · 21-08-2018 9:30am

The Backwards Man wrote: »

It's from years of experience.

haven't seen that one

Trasna1 · 21-08-2018 9:31am

The Backwards Man wrote: »

You anticipate that they will. You done presume anything on the roads.

Same thing. You expect other road users to behave in a certain way from their road position, speed, heading and indication. If you can't presume this then you can't go anywhere.

RustyNut · 21-08-2018 9:34am

This is one of the accidents that the insurance companies love. They will put it down to a 50/50 and gouge both drivers for increased premiums and hammer both ncd's.

The Backwards Man · 21-08-2018 9:35am

Trasna1 wrote: »

Same thing. You expect other road users to behave in a certain way from their road position, speed, heading and indication. If you can't presume this then you can't go anywhere.

You don't expect, you don't presume, you don't assume. You can only control the vehicle that you are driving. You do that do the best of your ability and you stay alert to the possibility of others not doing the same.

Trasna1 · 21-08-2018 9:35am

RustyNut wrote: »

This is one of the accidents that the insurance companies love. They will put it down to a 50/50 and gouge both drivers for increased premiums and hammer both ncd's.

Indeed. One for breaking the rules and the other for not paying attention to the other person breaking the rules.

Trasna1 · 21-08-2018 9:41am

The Backwards Man wrote: »

You don't expect, you don't presume, you don't assume. You can only control the vehicle that you are driving. You do that do the best of your ability and you stay alert to the possibility of others not doing the same.

I suppose you'll be pulling in and stopping when you meet a car coming towards you on the other some of the road from now on since you can't expect or presume they will stay on their own side.:rolleyes:

A particularly common cause of accidents is when people don't behave as expected.

21-08-2018 9:45am

Red is in wrong lane, and is wrong. Blue should not cross the lane, but should go round again. Blue is wrong.

Red is more wrong by forcing a situation, but both are wrong.

Fieldsman · 21-08-2018 9:55am

As someone said why is this a query. The red car is wrong, The blue car can be in the right hand lane if going straight ahead or third exit

andekwarhola · 21-08-2018 10:01am

And yet another motor thread on a simple question about fault has to turn in to a pissing contest for people where the motoring fault of others don't exist save as a means to blow your trumpet about whether or not you have the Right Stuff as a driver to deal with it.

Because you know, identifying a fault means you never try to anticipate them as a driver or maybe just plough into the person committing it.

Wildly Boaring · 21-08-2018 10:04am

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Red is wrong all day long.

Why is this even a question?

Ah here

There are people on the internet who just look for an argument.

8 pages!!

V8 Interceptor · 21-08-2018 10:18am

The Backwards Man wrote: »

People need to realise that being an asshole and being in the wrong are not the same thing. Red car is an idiot, blue car left their lane and hit them.More evidence that the majority of drivers shouldn't be on the road.

What?

Sadb · 21-08-2018 10:23am

Does anyone else have
“The red car and the blue car had a race, all red wants to do is stuff his face, he eats everything he sees, from trucks to prickly trees, but smart old blue, he took the Milky Way”

stuck in their head?
No? Just me?

V8 Interceptor · 21-08-2018 10:29am

Akrasia wrote: »

Do you actually own a car? There are roundabouts like that all over the place.

Can't think of a single one. Why are there so many pointless roundabouts constructed?

The Backwards Man wrote: »

The question was who would be at fault in the event of a collision. That's the car that left their lane just because they were in the 'right'. You don't drive in accordance to where other traffic should be, you drive in accordance to where it actually is.

The Blue car didn't leave its lane.

Unless you're talking about exiting the roundabout!

Henry Ford III · 21-08-2018 10:57am

Deleted User wrote:

Red is more wrong by forcing a situation, but both are wrong.

Oh dear.

Spook_ie · 21-08-2018 11:16am

Actually if I recall correctly, the only rule directly relating to a roundabout is that you must turn left on entry, hence why it's an offence to drive straight over mini RaBs

stimpson · 21-08-2018 11:27am

RustyNut wrote: »

This is one of the accidents that the insurance companies love. They will put it down to a 50/50 and gouge both drivers for increased premiums and hammer both ncd's.

Nope. The missus had almost this exact crash last year. She was blue and going straight. He was red and turning right.

I sent insurance a link to google maps showing the road markings. His insurance folded faster than Superman on laundry day.

frozenfrozen · 21-08-2018 11:41am

red in the wrong lane and blue not able to predict an obvious hazard

Sexual Chocolate · 21-08-2018 11:46am

Red car is in the wrong. Had the exact same thing happen to me earlier this year and insurance were satisfied that I was not at fault.

andekwarhola · 21-08-2018 12:21pm

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

Can't think of a single one. Why are there so many pointless roundabouts constructed?

To be fair, if you added another exit (for example at 3 O'Clock on that diagram like the Dundrum roundabout discussed earlier), the red car should still be staying in the left lane.

GreeBo · 21-08-2018 12:29pm

frozenfrozen wrote: »

red in the wrong lane and blue not able to predict an obvious hazard

Whats the obvious hazard?

If red car is behind blue car, but still in the left lane, then why on earth would the blue car be predicting that the red car was going to cut across them?

Who is at fault here?

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