Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

skipper_G · 21-10-2020 6:44pm

vectra wrote: »

Put Hamilton or Max into one, where do you think it would be then?

They would be behind Mercedes and Red Bull. On absolute pace the Racing Point is still a second behind Mercedes. No driver can make up that much difference

GarIT · 21-10-2020 6:55pm

pjohnson wrote: »

Does Latifi's dad not still have a big chunk of money tied to Williams?

He owns their two largest sponsors Sofina and Lavazza.

Perez brings Telmex, Telcel and Claro. Perez's sponsors have totalled up to £20m per season in the past but his current salary is rumoured to be £8m.

There were rumours that Mercedes were only giving Williams a £5m discount on engines in exchange for Russel or that only Russel's engines were free. Renault could give a similar discount to get that relationship started, to try to get some money back, and to have someone to make the works team when they pull out at the end of 2021 or maybe 2022.

AMKC · 21-10-2020 7:26pm

GarIT wrote: »

He owns their two largest sponsors Sofina and Lavazza.

Perez brings Telmex, Telcel and Claro. Perez's sponsors have totalled up to £20m per season in the past but his current salary is rumoured to be £8m.

There were rumours that Mercedes were only giving Williams a £5m discount on engines in exchange for Russel or that only Russel's engines were free. Renault could give a similar discount to get that relationship started, to try to get some money back, and to have someone to make the works team when they pull out at the end of 2021 or maybe 2022.

Renault are not going to pull out soon just a name change to Alpine althought I think they should keep it Renault Alpine or Alpine Renault myself. They are going to use it to get Alpine recognised as a mini Ferrari.

pjohnson · 21-10-2020 7:42pm

AMKC wrote: »

Renault are not going to pull out soon just a name change to Alpine althought I think they should keep it Renault Alpine or Alpine Renault myself. They are going to use it to get Alpine recognised as a mini Ferrari.

Constructor name probably be Alpine-Renault.

El_Duderino 09 · 21-10-2020 7:45pm

AMKC wrote: »

Renault are not going to pull out soon just a name change to Alpine althought I think they should keep it Renault Alpine or Alpine Renault myself. They are going to use it to get Alpine recognised as a mini Ferrari.

What a time to launch a luxury car brand...

I wouldn’t say anything is certain.

duploelabs · 21-10-2020 7:46pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

What a time to launch a luxury car brand...

I wouldn’t say anything is certain.

It not exactly a luxury brand, it's a sports brand and it's been around since the 50s

El_Duderino 09 · 21-10-2020 8:09pm

duploelabs wrote: »

It not exactly a luxury brand, it's a sports brand and it's been around since the 50s

Yeah and Renault bought it in the 70s and never really used it much until now. So it’s effectively a relaunch.

Here’s a whatcar review
https://www.whatcar.com/alpine/a110/coupe/review/n185

Prices to rival the Porsche Cayman: “ And what are those rivals? Well, small and lightweight doesn’t mean cheap in the case of the A110. It’s priced to compete with some pretty serious machines, such as the Porsche Cayman and 2.0-litre Jaguar F-Type, as well as another sports car returnee, the Toyota Supra.”

Sports brand, luxury brand... call it whatever you want. It’s the kind of product that relies notch lots of people having discretionary spending

Harika · 21-10-2020 8:43pm

All comes down for Williams what they want to achieve long term, next season is a write off, so why not get the maximum out of the pay drivers? 2021 is rebuilt and 2022 progress into the midfield.
Mercedes will want to keep Russell available, latifi and Perez bring money with Perez clearly the faster driver.
From F2 the young russian will bring money too, just not sure how much his daddy is going to spend if he might get a Haas seat cheaper

Frank Bullitt · 21-10-2020 11:48pm

In the name of the father, son, and holy spirit.

donspeekinglesh · 22-10-2020 8:45am

Grosjean has confirmed on his Facebook (and probably other social media platforms too) that he's leaving Haas.

El_Duderino 09 · 22-10-2020 9:04am

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

Grosjean has confirmed on his Facebook (and probably other social media platforms too) that he's leaving Haas.

That’s fair enough. Mad to think he was on the shortlist for a ferrari seat at one point.

Magnussen should be very worried for his seat too. Google suggests they are both in big danger.

Anjobe · 22-10-2020 9:04am

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

Grosjean has confirmed on his Facebook (and probably other social media platforms too) that he's leaving Haas.

Magnussen is being dropped too according to some accounts, an announcement is expected this weekend.

Burkie1203 · 22-10-2020 9:15am

Anjobe wrote: »

Magnussen is being dropped too according to some accounts, an announcement is expected this weekend.

Who is likely to get them seats?

Hulk maybe?

El_Duderino 09 · 22-10-2020 9:21am

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Who is likely to get them seats?

Hulk maybe?

Hulk/Perez in one seat and a Ferrari sponsored rookie in the other seat would be a great deal for Haas.

flazio · 22-10-2020 9:25am

It'd be some scoop for Gene if he managed to sign Schumacher.

GarIT · 22-10-2020 9:26am

I'll be happy to see Magnusson gone, he's a real nasty person.
Grosjean hasn't been great lately but he showed some potential over the years. 10 podiums is a good career for someone who has never been in the fastest 3 cars. And he has done a lot of good work as the present of the GPDA.

GarIT · 22-10-2020 9:27am

Russell maybe if the Williams rumours are true?

flazio · 22-10-2020 9:39am

They're both gone.
https://twitter.com/F1/status/1319192956532916224?s=09

Anjobe · 22-10-2020 9:44am

GarIT wrote: »

Russell maybe if the Williams rumours are true?

The Williams rumour was really based on Mazepin rather than Perez taking a seat at Haas though, so with both Haas seats now open is Perez back on for one of them?

pjohnson · 22-10-2020 9:50am

Shwartzman was favourite but saw on twitter that apparently theres some political hoohaa between Russia and America that put that deal in doubt.

Supposedly American business is limited in how much they can accept from Russian business/investors? Which would cause problems for Shwartzman who is sponsored by SMP Racing.

recyclebin · 22-10-2020 9:52am

Perez would be a good catch for Williams or Haas but I don't think Williams or Haas would be good for Perez. It would be a step down for him. Albons seat in Red Bull is the prize that everyone wants.

AMKC · 22-10-2020 10:10am

Alexander Albon and Nico Hulkinberg to Haas, George Russell to Red Bull and Sergio Perez to Williams.
Just what I think.

Who know's what will happen. I do think Haas need at least one very experienced driver do and Hulk would be perfect there

ELM327 · 22-10-2020 10:19am

Russell to RedBull would be interesting!

Joeface · 22-10-2020 10:22am

Romain Grosjean , good luck to him . May be he will follow Marcus Ericsson to Indy car . I know his team input was good but he did underperform on most race days . So It had to end a some point .

Kevin Magnussen on the other hand .. I know he is or comes across as an ass but really most drivers do. I do rate him highly and he is one of the most difficult people to pass when watching races . If he gave anything to F1 its his starts , after every race they get linked on Reddit . He is a first lap hero always gains 3-4 places on the opening lap. If he had a better car who knows . I though Haas would have kept him as the senior driver .

These 2 seats opening up do make things interesting .

donspeekinglesh · 22-10-2020 10:24am

pjohnson wrote: »

Shwartzman was favourite but saw on twitter that apparently theres some political hoohaa between Russia and America that put that deal in doubt.

Supposedly American business is limited in how much they can accept from Russian business/investors? Which would cause problems for Shwartzman who is sponsored by SMP Racing.

SMP Bank (who own SMP Racing) were sanctioned by the US Government after Russia invaded Crimea.

GarIT · 22-10-2020 10:40am

Joeface wrote: »

Kevin Magnussen on the other hand .. I know he is or comes across as an ass but really most drivers do.

This is only a feeling not stats but I feel like he broke the rules and was unsportsmanlike more often than any other driver. Some could say that's a champions mentality.
I recall him deliberately messing up another drivers (was it Alonso?) quali lap at Monza after the timing was messed up on his and he couldn't have put in a timed lap. So he overtook when the other driver was preparing their lap and raced them into the chicane, stopping either setting a useable time.
And then how he was with Hulk when it was his own fault and he partially stopped Hulk replacing Grosjean this year.

quokula · 22-10-2020 11:13am

GarIT wrote: »

This is only a feeling not stats but I feel like he broke the rules and was unsportsmanlike more often than any other driver. Some could say that's a champions mentality.
I recall him deliberately messing up another drivers (was it Alonso?) quali lap at Monza after the timing was messed up on his and he couldn't have put in a timed lap. So he overtook when the other driver was preparing their lap and raced them into the chicane, stopping either setting a useable time.
And then how he was with Hulk when it was his own fault and he partially stopped Hulk replacing Grosjean this year.

Yeah I've heard it said a few times amongst other drivers that Magnussen is considered the most unsporting driver on the grid. Don't think he'll be widely missed.

Grosjean's made a lot of high profile mistakes but at least he's a likeable person. Prior to Haas he was also a very strong driver when in a faster car that wasn't as unstable under braking or as likely to be surrounded by traffic in the early laps. Another example of how much of a difference being in the right car at the right time can make to a driver's career and reputation.

El_Duderino 09 · 22-10-2020 11:43am

Joeface wrote: »

Romain Grosjean , good luck to him . May be he will follow Marcus Ericsson to Indy car . I know his team input was good but he did underperform on most race days . So It had to end a some point .

Kevin Magnussen on the other hand .. I know he is or comes across as an ass but really most drivers do. I do rate him highly and he is one of the most difficult people to pass when watching races . If he gave anything to F1 its his starts , after every race they get linked on Reddit . He is a first lap hero always gains 3-4 places on the opening lap. If he had a better car who knows . I though Haas would have kept him as the senior driver .

These 2 seats opening up do make things interesting .

I'd agree with all that. The only thing I'd say is that it's fine to think a driver is an ass, but that should have no bearing on whether he should get a drive. I dislike most things about Hamilton but i acknowledge that he's an excellent driver. I conversely very much like Vettel but i acknowledge that he's only ok these days. I think everyone wanted Kubica to do well but it was clear how far off the pace he was when he came back. I don't have much of an opinion on whether Magnussen is a good guy or not but it's irrelevant either way.

I think It's worth mentioning in sport because it's supposed to foster emotional attachments to the sports stars. But I don't think that should cloud judgement about who is fast and who isn't.

pjohnson · 22-10-2020 12:29pm

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

SMP Bank (who own SMP Racing) were sanctioned by the US Government after Russia invaded Crimea.

Thats likely it so. It makes him moving to Haas very complicated.

skipper_G · 22-10-2020 1:29pm

I don't think it's that big of a loss with Grosjean and KMag losing their seats.

Grosjean seems a nice chap but he's wildly inconsistent, capable of great performances and stupid unforced mistakes in equal measure.
KMag was a decent driver but as others have said he has a reputation for not being the most sportsmanlike individual.

Joeface · 22-10-2020 1:50pm

Hopefully I'm not breaking rules Linking this

https://streamable.com/4ki1xs ( Kmag starts for this season )

Frank Bullitt · 22-10-2020 3:59pm

flazio wrote: »

They're both gone.
https://twitter.com/F1/status/1319192956532916224?s=09

In fairness to them both, they had a very patient Haas team the last while, you could see their behaviour on the Netflix doc.

I wonder what will happen to them both now?

Charlie-Bravo · 22-10-2020 4:18pm

If Grosjean doesn't end up in Indycar, I think it would be a shame. I think he'd fit great and get good results.

I wouldn't like to see him go into Formula e. It's just not the top-level racing series (yet).

donspeekinglesh · 22-10-2020 4:20pm

I think he'll be aiming for the Peugeot WEC project.

Harika · 22-10-2020 4:30pm

For Haas also next year is a write off, so no need to spend money on drivers close at the bottom of the field, when you can get paid to put drivers there.
Neither Grosjean nor Magnussen look like the next world champion, so no need to keep them warm for Ferrari. Sainz to Ferrari should have given Grosjean already the hint that he is done.

skipper_G · 22-10-2020 4:34pm

astrofluff wrote: »

If Grosjean doesn't end up in Indycar, I think it would be a shame. I think he'd fit great and get good results.

I wouldn't like to see him go into Formula e. It's just not the top-level racing series (yet).

Grosjean isn't a fan of ovals. I think it's very unlikely we'll see him stateside, the formula e / WEC option is more likely

Burkie1203 · 22-10-2020 6:03pm

skipper_G wrote: »

Grosjean isn't a fan of ovals. I think it's very unlikely we'll see him stateside, the formula e / WEC option is more likely

WEC ... Half the field could be wiped out in the first corner

Infoanon · 22-10-2020 7:20pm

skipper_G wrote: »

Grosjean isn't a fan of ovals. I think it's very unlikely we'll see him stateside, the formula e / WEC option is more likely

That was before the cockpit protection screen was brought in - it's often forgotten that Grosjean came close to being a gp winner at Lotus.

Financial considerations so decisive in driver considerations despite best hopes

mickdw · 22-10-2020 8:18pm

I used to be a fan of grosjean but after watching that spin out at the spanish gp, it was id say the worst act ive ever seen in a race car.
It was arguably suicidal not to mention the danger he put everyone else in.
He purposely floored the throttle propelling himself back into the middle of the pack in a heavy cloud of his own tyre smoke.

skipper_G · 23-10-2020 3:18pm

Couple of interesting things from the team principal's presser.

Zak Brown rightly having a go at the BS response from Racing Point re: Stroll's Covid+ diagnosis
https://www.racefans.net/2020/10/23/brown-criticises-racing-points-lack-of-transparency-over-strolls-covid-19-test/
Little slap on the wrist from the FIA wasn't severe enough

Second one was Williams' guy not saying anything about driver lineup for next year because he didn't want to fuel speculation, and in doing so has only gone and fueled speculation
https://www.racefans.net/2020/10/23/williams-not-confirming-driver-plans-for-2021-amid-russell-rumours/

chicorytip · 23-10-2020 11:07pm

AMKC wrote: »

Alexander Albon and Nico Hulkinberg to Haas, George Russell to Red Bull and Sergio Perez to Williams.
Just what I think.

Who know's what will happen. I do think Haas need at least one very experienced driver do and Hulk would be perfect there

What about Latifi? He brings big bucks but that's all. Perez would be a vast improvement and has a large fan base in the Americas. Hulk and Grosjean are both finished in F1. I think Raikkonen might see sense and quit. So, there could be six places up for grabs.

El_Duderino 09 · 23-10-2020 11:29pm

Interesting to see Magnussen and Grosjean both saying they’re being dropped because they aren’t pay drivers. It’s a convenient narrative for them and there’s probably some truth in it. The Covid recession is kicking in again.

Haas needing pay drivers is a bad sign. It’s acceptance that they’re a backmarker team. I wouldn’t bet on them being there after 2022. The rule changes represent a major investment in the chassis formula.

GarIT · 24-10-2020 1:03am

Helmut Marko has said they are planning to replace Kivyat with Tsunoda. "The plan is to place him at Alfa Tauri. He only has to achieve the necessary points for his super license"

He also said Albion can stay if he continues to improve.

AMKC · 24-10-2020 1:07am

chicorytip wrote: »

What about Latifi? He brings big bucks but that's all. Perez would be a vast improvement and has a large fan base in the Americas. Hulk and Grosjean are both finished in F1. I think Raikkonen might see sense and quit. So, there could be six places up for grabs.

Sure he can go to Alfa Romeo when Kimi retires.

24-10-2020 1:19am

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Interesting to see Magnussen and Grosjean both saying they’re being dropped because they aren’t pay drivers. It’s a convenient narrative for them and there’s probably some truth in it. The Covid recession is kicking in again.

Haas needing pay drivers is a bad sign. It’s acceptance that they’re a backmarker team. I wouldn’t bet on them being there after 2022. The rule changes represent a major investment in the chassis formula.

At the end of the day there are 10 teams:
Williams - Joke shop. Just been bought out, won't be progressing.
Haas - Customer/B-team.
Alfa Romeo - Customer/B-team.
Racing Point - will be around the top of the midfield as long as they have Merc engines.
Alpha Tauri - Customer/B-term.
Renault - Stuck with not great engine. Will need to outperform RB by a half second to challenge for wins regularly.
McLaren - Merc customer, might get somewhere near the top soon.
Red Bull - stuck with not great engine. Need to out-design Merc by probably half a second a lap to compete properly.
Ferrari - stuck with a **** engine now.
Mercedes - best engine, will have the best engine for the next half a decade. Haven't had to develop this year's car at all.

All the teams' values will be inflated by the new buy-in BS so someone coming in and actually doing something looks very unlikely. In the early 2000s they brought in a new points system and then banned tyre changes pretty much to break Ferrari's dominance. Right now Mercedes have already done 6 months dedicated development on 2021's car, they probably don't even need to do it. I'd be amazed they haven't already put in a ton of development into 2022 and that's all they'll be working on next year.

Point being (:pac:) which of those teams can afford to have non-pay-drivers and how many would get any actual benefit from it? At least half of the (small, 20 cars) field should be paid drivers if the teams have any sense. Why would Williams or Alfa Romeo pay someone a million when they can get paid 5 million for basically no difference in outcome?

skipper_G · 24-10-2020 11:28am

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Interesting to see Magnussen and Grosjean both saying they’re being dropped because they aren’t pay drivers. It’s a convenient narrative for them and there’s probably some truth in it. The Covid recession is kicking in again.

Haas needing pay drivers is a bad sign. It’s acceptance that they’re a backmarker team. I wouldn’t bet on them being there after 2022. The rule changes represent a major investment in the chassis formula.

I think it's more an acceptance of the financial impact of covid. All the teams except for the front few depend on the income from F1 to keep the lights on. With the income expected to be half the usual amount based on reduced revenues, if they can’t find additional sponsorship then they need drivers who bring money. It's entirely possible that Haas may not be there in 2022, but somebody would buy them. The 200 million buy in fee for new entries makes existing teams a much more attractive proposition

El_Duderino 09 · 24-10-2020 11:33am

skipper_G wrote: »

I think it's more an acceptance of the financial impact of covid. All the teams except for the front few depend on the income from F1 to keep the lights on. With the income expected to be half the usual amount based on reduced revenues, if they can’t find additional sponsorship then they need drivers who bring money. It's entirely possible that Haas may not be there in 2022, but somebody would buy them. The 200 million buy in fee for new entries makes existing teams a much more attractive proposition

Yeah that’s a fair analysis.

F1 looks very weak at the moment. Has it always been like this or is this a really different time?

murphyebass · 24-10-2020 11:33am

What are they talking about on practice here? Someone said something that was controversial?

Offence nature of his comments, not just the swearing crofty just said.

What did I miss?

GarIT · 24-10-2020 11:36am

Italian newspaper reporting Mick Schumacher and Nikita Mazepin have been signed at Haas.

EDIT: Sky Italy now too. Gio to remain at Alfa Romeo as he is getting big support in Italy and Ferrari like that, they can't be seen to kick the only Italian off the grid.

GarIT · 24-10-2020 11:37am

murphyebass wrote: »

What are they talking about on practice here? Someone said something that was controversial?

Offence nature of his comments, not just the swearing crofty just said.

What did I miss?

It could be that Verstappen called Stroll a retard after Stroll crashed into him. It's not really a PC insult anymore.

Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

Comments