Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

El_Duderino 09

namloc1980 wrote: »

Renault protested against the Racing Point again (the brake ducts specifically) after yesterday's race. There is a chance the FIA will finalise their ruling on it this week before the 70th GP.

The more you think about it the less likely that FIA will find against RP. If their arrangement is illegal then what can they do? Id there any chance they will tell RP to stop using the break ducts and just use last year's ones? I doubt it. It's much more likely that they just tell them they can't do it from 2022 onwards. I think we will see a lot of this next year where the Alfa and Haas turn up with lots of parts from this year's Ferrari and Red Bull parts on the Alpha Tauri and continued Mercedes updates on the RP.

It might be a welcome relief for the teams who would prefer to focus on developing cars for the the 2022 rules change and just buy some parts from works teams and pretend they scanned them.

Dont be at yourself

Interesting scenario with Checo; his initial inconclusive test was apparently a positive diagnosis by NHS standards.

The enforced isolation period was extended from 7 days to 10 days between his two tests, which means that if his initial test is deemed positive rather than inconclusive, he could be back racing this weekend. Poor Hulkenberg...

recyclebin

It would make more sense for Perez to go back to the Alfa branded Sauber than Haas. An injection of Perez money would do a lot more for Alfa than Haas. Alfa have good facilities and a long history in F1.

If I was Vettel, I'd wait a little longer before committing to Racing Point. A Red Bull seat could be available at the end of the season and it's a better car than Racing Point or the Ferrari he's in right now. I don't see Vettel winning another drivers championship but he might get a few race wins if he went back to Red Bull.

Mick Schumacher is not good enough to be in Formula 1. He's not better than anyone currently on the grid. I feel a bit sorry for him, as the pressure and expectation to be as good as Michael's must be huge.

antodeco

Thing with Vettel is that he would be shown up by Max in the RB. At least being in the RP, he can be the "main driver", and if he doesn't perform well it's not because did his lack of ability.

pjohnson

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

Interesting scenario with Checo; his initial inconclusive test was apparently a positive diagnosis by NHS standards.

The enforced isolation period was extended from 7 days to 10 days between his two tests, which means that if his initial test is deemed positive rather than inconclusive, he could be back racing this weekend. Poor Hulkenberg...

Croft/Di Resta was saying the FIA themselves were going to impose at least a 10 day on any driver before they can return.

Infoanon

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

Interesting scenario with Checo; his initial inconclusive test was apparently a positive diagnosis by NHS standards.

The enforced isolation period was extended from 7 days to 10 days between his two tests, which means that if his initial test is deemed positive rather than inconclusive, he could be back racing this weekend. Poor Hulkenberg...

The optics of bringing Checo back on a technicality would be poor. I imagine RP will be persuaded to drop this notion rather quickly.

Re Hulkenburg - I know RP have pointed the finger at Mercedes but not being able to start a GP in this day and age is a major issue and points to problems within RP structures

Harika

Riccardo lead Vettel out of red bull, Riccardo was pushed out by Max. as red bull is now built around max cannot see him going there playing the second fiddle

skipper_G

Infoanon wrote: »

The optics of bringing Checo back on a technicality would be poor. I imagine RP will be persuaded to drop this notion rather quickly.

Re Hulkenburg - I know RP have pointed the finger at Mercedes but not being able to start a GP in this day and age is a major issue and points to problems within RP structures

The part that failed isn't manufactured by the team. It was a bolt in the internals of the powertrain which is supplied by Mercedes

https://www.racefans.net/2020/08/02/sheared-bolt-caused-engine-failure-which-put-hulkenberg-out/

It's a massive stretch to say that an isolated mechanical failure outside of the team's control suggests there's a major structural or procedural problem. Sounds like you're overreacting, I would put it down to 'that's racing'

El_Duderino 09

OSI wrote: »

This is already happening from next season:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.how-f1s-new-sliding-scale-aero-testing-rules-work-and-what-impact-they-will.pn0sG8N4A0cjbNRbdYx8a.html

Very happy about this From 2022-25 the teams in last place will get about 165% the wind tunnel time of the championship winner.

It would be better if these things were applied to more areas than just wind tunnel time but it's a good start. Don't most teams use mostly digital wind tunnels (CFD) now?

Infoanon

skipper_G wrote: »

It's a massive stretch to say that an isolated mechanical failure outside of the team's control suggests there's a major structural or procedural problem. Sounds like you're overreacting, I would put it down to 'that's racing'

Point taken but I just don't see a Mercedes or Red Bull having a DNS for mechanicals.

The car was a podim position car at Silverstone but between Hulks DNS and Strolls lacklustre pace something is astray somewhere

namloc1980

Ferrari weighing in on the Racing Point legality question now. They've written to the FIA asking how copying last years Mercedes can be considered Racing Points own design.

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El_Duderino 09

To be fair, none of the teams have regular mechanical failures like this one. I'd say the mechanical side of things have never been stronger. This is towards the end of the current formula and I think all the teams (even the slowest cars) are completely on top of the mechanical reliability side of things. If this kind of thing happens again in the next few races then we need to question RP or Mercedes. But at the moment it's just 'one of those things'.

RP is in the process of expanding the whole operation and aspiring to get right up the grid. It's probably normal that they have some blind spots or take their eye off the ball in some ways, otherwise how would they learn how to run a bigger operation? The real question is whether they do what Mercedes did and systematically and ruthlessly hunt down the source of problems and eliminate them.

RP is no longer a plucky underdog, dating back to the Jordan days, who is the best value team considering its medium-small budget. It's becoming a money team now. I wonder if the old staff can handle the different challenge of being a top team.

El_Duderino 09

namloc1980 wrote: »

Ferrari weighing in on the Racing Point legality question now. They've written to the FIA asking how copying last years Mercedes can be considered Racing Points own design.

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This isn't really a complaint as much as asking the FIA to clarify the rules on how other teams can do the same thing. Alpha Tauri will be the biggest beneficiary of this new design approach. Joe Saward said they often lodge a complaint against things because then all the teams get to take a look at some of the designs when the defendant puts forward evidence in its defence.

The next step I'd be looking at is to have Alpha focus it's design on some parts while Red Bull focus on other parts and then just scan them (swap designs) and maximise both cars.

d8491prj5boyvg

recyclebin wrote: »

It would make more sense for Perez to go back to the Alfa branded Sauber than Haas. An injection of Perez money would do a lot more for Alfa than Haas. Alfa have good facilities and a long history in F1.

If I was Vettel, I'd wait a little longer before committing to Racing Point. A Red Bull seat could be available at the end of the season and it's a better car than Racing Point or the Ferrari he's in right now. I don't see Vettel winning another drivers championship but he might get a few race wins if he went back to Red Bull.

Mick Schumacher is not good enough to be in Formula 1. He's not better than anyone currently on the grid. I feel a bit sorry for him, as the pressure and expectation to be as good as Michael's must be huge.

And sadly poor Michael can't share his tricks of the trade which would usually be the edge in any dynasty like this.

quokula

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

To be fair, none of the teams have regular mechanical failures like this one. I'd say the mechanical side of things have never been stronger. This is towards the end of the current formula and I think all the teams (even the slowest cars) are completely on top of the mechanical reliability side of things. If this kind of thing happens again in the next few races then we need to question RP or Mercedes. But at the moment it's just 'one of those things'.

RP is in the process of expanding the whole operation and aspiring to get right up the grid. It's probably normal that they have some blind spots or take their eye off the ball in some ways, otherwise how would they learn how to run a bigger operation? The real question is whether they do what Mercedes did and systematically and ruthlessly hunt down the source of problems and eliminate them.

RP is no longer a plucky underdog, dating back to the Jordan days, who is the best value team considering its medium-small budget. It's becoming a money team now. I wonder if the old staff can handle the different challenge of being a top team.

I think that might be an exaggeration. They've got a fast car right now due to the extent to which they've copied Mercedes, but they've also clearly struggled to set it up and get the most out of it.

Going forward, they have Aston Martin sponsorship and branding, but the terms of the deal aren't public. The only number I can find is "up to 200 million" and that looks to be the total amount over five years rather than per year.

But even if it is per year, and even if it is entirely additive (which it presumably wouldn't be as their current title sponsor BWT would become less prominent), that still wouldn't bring them close to the budget of the top three teams. And they will still be an engine customer entirely at the mercy of Mercedes.

I remember a couple of years ago when everyone was saying Sauber were heading up the grid after landing the Alfa Romeo deal. But at the end of the day a sponsor who makes cars is still just a sponsor. It's very different from a true works team. And Aston Martin for their own part were on their last legs before Stroll invested in them too.

El_Duderino 09

quokula wrote: »

I think that might be an exaggeration. They've got a fast car right now due to the extent to which they've copied Mercedes, but they've also clearly struggled to set it up and get the most out of it.

Going forward, they have Aston Martin sponsorship and branding, but the terms of the deal aren't public. The only number I can find is "up to 200 million" and that looks to be the total amount over five years rather than per year.

But even if it is per year, and even if it is entirely additive (which it presumably wouldn't be as their current title sponsor BWT would become less prominent), that still wouldn't bring them close to the budget of the top three teams. And they will still be an engine customer entirely at the mercy of Mercedes.

I remember a couple of years ago when everyone was saying Sauber were heading up the grid after landing the Alfa Romeo deal. But at the end of the day a sponsor who makes cars is still just a sponsor. It's very different from a true works team. And Aston Martin for their own part were on their last legs before Stroll invested in them too.

There's a big difference between a sponsorship deal by alfa and the transformation that's happening at RP. There's also a hog difference between 40m per year and 200m per year. The former is a decent change the latter is a complete game changer and would bring them roughly on line with the big 3.

People got excited about thr alfa sponsorship because alfa is recognisable car company and I think they missed the point. Sponsorship is just sponsorship. Its not like they were taken over by a manufacturer and we're becoming a works team. It's still sauber with a title sponsor.

RP's Aston Martin deal,is similar bit the actual money is part of the Stroll consortium. That money is real. Stroll is using a brand he bought to sponsor the team and advertise the brand. In one way the Aston part is like the Alfa sponsorship but the difference is the money. RP is building another factory. That's the difference. Jordan were pucky underdogs overperforming on a small budget. The stroll ovnsortuim money means theyre no longer a plucky underdog as demonstrated by the new factory.

There's things take time how long was it from the man city takeover u til they won the PL? Maybe 4 years?

ongarite

Looks certain the Kyvat crash was caused by rear right tyre failure. There are still video images of the tyre deflating, losing shape as he comes to corner complex.

He also hit a concrete wall which should be impossible from track safety POV in 2020. No tyre or TecPro barrier.

Edit:
Posted on British GP thread too..

SureYWouldntYa

Brundle was bloody quick to asert that it was a tyre failure rather than a Kvyat error, so fair play to him there

ELM327

On the mick schumacher thing, he's got the "Ralf Schumacher" issue.
Even if he's an above average driver, he'll never be as good as MSC and as such will be viewed as a failure.

Charlie-Bravo

Imola will be two day event only. So no Friday running:

Saturday Practice 1000-1130
Saturday Qualifying 1400 – 1500
Sunday Race 1310

Joeface

After the weekends race , I see a few seats next year begining to open up.

I cannot see Vettel ever been back at RB while MAX is there, they want a #1 & #2 , all they want form the second driver is to be there as a road block, be close to Max and avoid been a contender with him. Same reason Merc Chose Bottas .

If HAAS stay in F1 I can see one seat been opened up there , Not sure which will go. Romain Grosjean great team player going on the story from inside but I cannot see him giving them anything extra as a driver. KMag on the other hand Can give a bit of XFactor but He could easily achieve stuff in other racing formats if he gets tired of Dragging around the back where HAAS currently are.

I cannot see Kimi Driving next year .so a Seat a ALFA should open up maybe even 2 there as Antonio Giovinazzi isnt proving anything great either . I know the Car like all the Ferrari powered cars are poor this year but he is still not great.

With those Seats free Hulk could easily be back in and Perez could find a move . I would be in the camp of Vettel Take a year out , Let Perez have his Time at Racing Point .

Infoanon

Vettels best option is Red Bull not Aston Martin and it's hard to get past that the boss wants Vettel in the team.

Stranger things have happened but RP/AM will be the third string Mercedes team next year - not really that attractive to Vettel ?

quokula

Out of curiosity I went and looked up the driver of the day statistics since they were introduced in 2016.

Verstappen 24
Vettel 16
Ricciardo 7
Hamilton 7
Leclerc 5
Bottas 5
Raikkonen 3
Hulkenberg 2
Alonso 2
Norris 2
Perez 2
Albon 2
Grosjean 2
Magnussen 1
Gasly 1
Stroll 1

Leclerc's only been around for 2 of the 4 seasons so you could argue that if you averaged him out he'd be up on 10. Same for a couple of lower down drivers like Norris.

It's interesting though that when you throw the wisdom of the crowd at it and try to filter out machinery advantage, that list is almost exactly the order I'd personally rate the drivers. Only exception really is Alonso being so low. And obviously when you get to the lower part of the grid there are fewer chances to shine, so guys like Russell haven't had a chance to make the list at all.

By year, Verstappen has been the top driver in 3 of the four years, and Vettel in the other. Again, about what I'd have expected having seen their performances over those years.

chicorytip

Joeface wrote: »

After the weekends race , I see a few seats next year begining to open up.

I cannot see Vettel ever been back at RB while MAX is there, they want a #1 & #2 , all they want form the second driver is to be there as a road block, be close to Max and avoid been a contender with him. Same reason Merc Chose Bottas .

If HAAS stay in F1 I can see one seat been opened up there , Not sure which will go. Romain Grosjean great team player going on the story from inside but I cannot see him giving them anything extra as a driver. KMag on the other hand Can give a bit of XFactor but He could easily achieve stuff in other racing formats if he gets tired of Dragging around the back where HAAS currently are.

I cannot see Kimi Driving next year .so a Seat a ALFA should open up maybe even 2 there as Antonio Giovinazzi isnt proving anything great either . I know the Car like all the Ferrari powered cars are poor this year but he is still not great.

With those Seats free Hulk could easily be back in and Perez could find a move . I would be in the camp of Vettel Take a year out , Let Perez have his Time at Racing Point .

Kimi could stay on if he wants to and if his missus wants him to. I heard he has money invested in the team so he may have first option on a seat. Giovinazzi will remain because Ferrari, as the engine supplier, are keen to have a driver from the family and, in particular, an Italian on the grid. I would agree that Raikkonen seems to be a beaten docket at this stage.

Frank Bullitt

https://twitter.com/andrewbensonf1/status/1290624018823946240

Christ almighty.

Only good thing about this year is that F1 TV became available in Canada (where I currently live) and was 50% off, so I can at least watch the old races.

Fûck this, we have another 2 seasons of this crap.

muckwarrior

Gintonious wrote: »

https://twitter.com/andrewbensonf1/status/1290624018823946240

Christ almighty.

Only good thing about this year is that F1 TV became available in Canada (where I currently live) and was 50% off, so I can at least watch the old races.

Fûck this, we have another 2 seasons of this crap.

One positive thing there is how much Williams have managed to improve since last year. No doubt partly due to the improved Mercedes engine, but obviously the car is a hell of a lot better too.

Frank Bullitt

muckwarrior wrote: »

One positive thing there is how much Williams have managed to improve since last year. No doubt partly due to the improved Mercedes engine, but obviously the car is a hell of a lot better too.

I am very happy about that too. My aunt lives in Didcot in the UK, where they were based before, used to see the trucks going around town.

El_Duderino 09

muckwarrior wrote: »

One positive thing there is how much Williams have managed to improve since last year. No doubt partly due to the improved Mercedes engine, but obviously the car is a hell of a lot better too.

Has Williams improvement been so good that they've even out developed Mercedes? Mercedes diminishing returns not considered, just in raw laptime.

skipper_G

The stewards review of the Renault vs Racing Point protest is getting underway right about now

namloc1980

Kubica will drive for Giovinazzi in FP1 this Friday.

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