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Saville & satanic ritual abuse

124

Comments

  • #152
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    BZjGZ-UCUAAVnoZ.jpg:large

    From Twitter - link:-

    https://twitter.com/mwalkerdine


    Martin Walkerdine ‏@mwalkerdine 5h
    @LeightonReality retired Stoke Mandeville consultant, Dr Michael Salmon @ciabaudo @reeves3915 @chigginjones @gojam_i_am @mlilleker
    Reply Retweet Favorite More Expand

    Carol Higgin-Jones ‏@chigginjones 3h
    @mwalkerdine @LeightonReality @ciabaudo @reeves3915 @gojam_i_am @mlilleker oh, do we know anyone else that frequented the hospital like 1/2
    Reply Retweet Favorite More Expand

    Carol Higgin-Jones ‏@chigginjones 3h
    @mwalkerdine @LeightonReality @ciabaudo @reeves3915 @gojam_i_am @mlilleker 2/2 Jimmy So-vile? Coincidence?

    Martin Walkerdine ‏@mwalkerdine 3h
    @chigginjones @LeightonReality @ciabaudo @reeves3915 @gojam_i_am @mlilleker 2 more nhs workers will be arrested soo mark my words on this


  • #153
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    After 30 years without an answer it's time to find out who protected the infamous Paedophile Information Exchange

    Check out all the latest News, Sport & Celeb gossip at Mirror.co.uk http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tom-watson-after-30-years-2824776#ixzz2lUg92IrO
    Follow us: @DailyMirror on Twitter | DailyMirror on Facebook

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tom-watson-after-30-years-2824776


  • #154
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    An update from The Real Whitby website regarding their investigations into Savile and accomplices in the Leeds and Scarborough areas.

    http://www.real-whitby.co.uk/official-peter-jaconelli-innocent


  • #155
    Daithi 1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,006 ✭✭✭Daithi 1


    enno99 wrote: »
    MK ultra and ritual abuse

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reQ8g1jtR8o


    havent watched it yet

    I will put it here if anybody wants to have a look

    Thanks.

    I haven't watched it either but it's nice to know it's here if I do decide to watch it. I won't have to go directly to youtube. :D


  • #156
    enno99
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭enno99


    Daithi 1 wrote: »
    Thanks.

    I haven't watched it either but it's nice to know it's here if I do decide to watch it. I won't have to go directly to youtube. :D



    LOL

    I know the reasoning behind putting it here escapes me now
    I did watch it later but like all these testimonies I find it hard to judge

    when she said she was sent to the Athenaeum Club, London to work (second part of the video) to either work or spy Reminded me of Savile getting membership there

    The late Cardinal Basil Hume is being held responsible for the election of Sir Jimmy Savile as a member of the Athenaeum, the historical Pall Mall establishment

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/celebritynews/9596850/Sir-Jimmy-Savile-causes-anguish-at-the-Athenaeum.html

    “It was Cardinal Basil Hume, at the time the Archbishop of Westminster, who put this character up for membership, and, while we did give consideration to blackballing Savile, we knew that would have had to result in something that could not be countenanced – Hume stepping down.”

    Makes you wonder what he had on Cardinal Basil Hume

    Or are they trying to control the damage by saying they didnt want him as a member but didnt have the balls to throw him out

    Or were more than one of them in his little black book

    Athenaeum Club, London
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenaeum_Club,_London#cite_note-3

    It has a long list of notable members


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  • #157
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    Questions for the Home Office regarding Establishment child abuse cover-ups

    Dear Mr . Mrs or Ms. L. Smart,
    Thank you for your letter undated and addressed wrongly to ____ _______ which arrived in yesterday’s post ie Saturday 30th November.
    I think I would have had more confidence that the Home Office was going to address the issues I raised with the Prime Minister and take my letter seriously if you had taken the trouble to at least get my name right.
    I quickly realised in reading the first few lines that your reply was going to be a mirror copy of the almost identical replies that Conservative Party MP’s have been sending to their constituents in response to the latter forwarding my “Open Letter” to them.
    You have not addressed a single issue that I specifically raised with the Prime Minister, The Deputy Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition and your reply is dismissive and rather condescending.
    I am well aware that Operations Fernbridge and Operation Fairbank are “live investigations” – I have in writing from the Operation Fernbridge team that they were only set up to address the allegations I made which resulted in Tom Watson’s PMQ on 24th October 2012.
    You go in to detail of what the Government intends to do to “urgently address the missed opportunities to protect children and vulnerable people”. I was well aware of all these initiatives before I wrote my letter to David Cameron. These are addressed to abuse in the community, in schools, in children’s institutions, in hospitals etc and you well know as do the politicians that I have written to that that is not what my letter is about. Please afford me a certain level of credibility.
    Unfortunately I am old enough to remember the similar initiatives made in the immediate aftermath of the death of Maria Colwell in 1973 when I had already started out on my long career in child protection, and am aware of all the similar soundbites that come from whichever political party is in power at the time through the deaths of Victoria Climbie and Peter Connelly.
    My letter is very specific as you well know and you have made not a single reference to the issues I raise.
    I will repeat them.
    1. The allegations regarding the role of senior politicians, the security services and the Crown Prosecution Service in covering up the horrendous abuse carried out by Sir Cyril Smith over 5 decades.
    2. The rise of Sir. Peter Morrison to become Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party and more crucially PPS to Prime Minister, Mrs.Thatcher, in 1990 and her general election campaign manager that same year despite it being known for many years that, in the words of a Government Minister, he was well known ” in Westminster circles ” to be ” a pederast “.
    3. The statement by the late Tim Fortescue, Edward Heath’s Chief Whip from 1970 – 1973, on prime time national TV that if an MP got in to trouble over the abuse of ” small boys ” it would be blatantly covered up, not referred to the Police or Social Services but merely recorded in the Whips Dirt Books to use at a later date for leverage on voting intentions.
    4. Why was a British Prime Minister so close to a life time paedophile (a fact the Security Services should have and probably did pick up long before her term as Prime Minister) that she invited him to allegedly 11 – 13 Chequers New Year’s Eve parties.
    5. Why did the same Prime Minister allegedly persevere, in spite of advice to the contrary from her closest advisers, in knighting a man many years after it was known in some circles that he had a deviant sexual history even if the full extent of it didn’t emerge until many years later.
    6. Why was the same man so welcome in Prince Charles’s properties despite the security services and similar vetting institutions having enough opportunity to tap in to the ” gossip ” about him that was around for decades.
    You state “child abuse is an abhorrent crime, no matter when, or WHERE it takes place. We are committed to tackling it, whatever form it takes”
    Really – why do I and probably millions of people doubt your sincerity.
    You attempt to divert the issue by stating that Operations Fernbridge and Fairbank are “live investigations”. You and I well know that the issues I raise in my “open letter” will not result in live investigations or trials as all the individuals I refer to are dead.
    It did not stop the Government setting up Inquiries in to the BBC’s and the NHS’s role when Operation Yewtree were only setting out on their ” live investigation”.
    Mr. Cameron promised that ALL institutions would look at the role they played in the failure to detect what Savile was doing.
    My request was that Parliament address the issues raised and that an Independent Inquiry be set up and party politics be totally removed from the equation ie give the power back to the victims and expose the most powerful abusers and those individuals or organisations that protected them throughout.
    The last agency that my letter should have been passed on to to provide a reply was the Home Office.
    With respect, and this is actually subject to a live investigation, the Home Office will have to deal with allegations that it played a key role in the funding of the Paedophile Information Exchange.
    In an Old Bailey trial on the 6th November 1984 evidence was given to the court under oath and not contested by the Defence Counsel that ” a telephone number at the Home Office was a contact point for members of the Paedophile Information Exchange ” and that a one time Chairman of the Paedophile Information Exchange ran the organisation while he was an employee of the Home Office, not only giving his work number as the contact point but also sending out information on meetings etc on Home Office headed notepaper.
    One has to ask was this an officially condoned situation or an inexplicable lapse in the security services activities.
    Even as recently as 2006 a serving Home Secretary declared that a significant section of the Home Office was ” not fit for purpose “.
    What conclusions are the public reasonably expected to draw from the above “evidence ” of the “support” given by the Home Office to an organisation advocating that sexual relations with children aged 4 and upwards be legalised.
    The Home Secretary and the Home Office have failed to find any record of a one million signatures petition accompanied by several dossiers prepared seperately by a Conservative MP and Scotland Yard’s Obscene Publications Squad (the fore-runner to the Paedophile Unit). These dossiers received coverage from every national newspaper for an 18 month period in 1982 – 83.
    You mention the Minister for Crime Prevention. I wonder if you would do me the courtesy of asking him to personally respond to a letter which raises such important issues about the most vulnerable children in our society, bearing in mind Mr.Cameron’s soundbites on the breaking news re. Savile last year – ” Collusion should NEVER happen again ” and ” The measure of how our society is, is how we treat its most vulnerable members “.
    Mr. Baker should be the ideal person for me to address my concerns to.
    His Wikipedia entry states :-
    “Baker is known for uncovering scandals and conflicts of interest among MP’s and the government”.
    Manna from heaven for me one might think but of course there is such a thing as “Cabinet Responsibility” which will take priority over any other consideration such as the rights of children when the abuse might be carried out from within the Westminster safe house.
    May I formally request in the presence of an MP of my choice a meeting with Mr. Baker. That is what we expect of our elected representatives, to put transparency/ honesty and the opinions and hopes of the electorate before self – interest and self- preservation in the face of alleged criminality.
    For me the response by Mr.Cameron and Mr.Clegg to my “Open Letter ” is the equivalent of putting it straight in to the shredder.
    I anticipate that this is what will happen to this letter.
    Yours sincerely
    ________________ (The source of Tom Watson’s PMQ)

    http://spotlightonabuse.wordpress.com/2013/12/03/questions-for-the-home-office-regarding-establishment-child-abuse-cover-ups/


  • #158
    enno99
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭enno99


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CQGavtZ_0U


    just listen to this:eek::eek::eek:


  • #159
    Frankie Lee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,285 ✭✭✭Frankie Lee


    enno99 wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CQGavtZ_0U


    just listen to this:eek::eek::eek:

    1389556159_sunday-express-12-january-2014-1.jpg
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/453381/Female-MP-abused-boy-in-care

    What is referenced in the interview, it is natural to be sceptical about activists like Maloney who are associated with Icke but the evidence definitely supports his claims.


  • #160
    enno99
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭enno99


    Frankie Lee wrote: »
    What is referenced in the interview, it is natural to be sceptical about activists like Maloney who are associated with Icke but the evidence definitely supports his claims.

    Its hard to tell which is more tragic that these children have been tortured or even murdered
    Or that the information could be brushed aside and ignored by some because somebody used David Icke or Alex Jones or whoever to get more exposure


  • #161
    Emme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,055 ✭✭✭Emme


    enno99 wrote: »
    Its hard to tell which is more tragic that these children have been tortured or even murdered
    Or that the information could be brushed aside and ignored by some because somebody used David Icke or Alex Jones or whoever to get more exposure

    I'm not a fan of David Icke but if he, Alex Jones or Bill Maloney don't expose the information who will?

    We know what happened in this country with clerical abuse and how difficult it is for things like this to come to light.


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  • #162
    Torakx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Torakx


    Yep it's hard to hate them for that reason.
    Sometimes it''s hard to know when its paranoia or not.
    Alex Jones says some things that make him look like he is exposing things, but then cuts people off a lot of the time when they are about to talk about a serious issue. He seems a distraction like Icke.
    Russel Brand looks like the messiah archetype. Speakign for the people and probably will have to be crucified as an example, also it would give him a good foundation to lead movements if he was crucified...as appose to just not letting him on TV anymore like Icke. So maybe Icke is legit now or was? who knows haha
    I don't.


  • #163
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    "At a big London railway station in the spring of 1970, a plastic carrier bag was found in the regular search for bombs before the station closed for the night.

    "The contents were an odd assortment of letters and photos, which seemed to have been taken at a kinky party attended by some well-known figures in entertainment.

    "The bag was duly taken to the station office and, as a senior rail worker wrote out a report for the lost property office, two MI5 men and a special branch officer arrived and demanded the photos."

    - T Stokes


  • #164
    Putin
    Registered Users Posts: 686 ✭✭✭Putin


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    So by this leap of logic Margaret Thatcher encouraged pedophilia and worshiped Satan also?

    Duh, Maggie Thatcher WAS Satan.


  • #165
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    Jimmy Savile abused corpses and boasted he made jewellery from their glass eyes: NHS report reveals shocking new details about paedophile's crimes
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2670444/Jimmy-Savile-abused-corpses-boasted-jewellery-glass-eyes-NHS-report-reveals-shocking-new-details-paedophiles-crimes.html#ixzz35jheKvnk


    The things now being officially reported about Savile, if you said them a few years ago you'd be called a crazy conspiraloon.


  • #166
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    porsche959 wrote: »
    The things now being officially reported about Savile, if you said them a few years ago you'd be called a crazy conspiraloon.

    Yep, Cognitive Dissonance.

    In the unconscious part of the public's mind, they know these things go on, they just don't want to accept it as being factual.

    Edward Heath was accused of being a child rapist and murderer long before his death and yet he never challenged the allegations against him in any court.

    Freemasons covered up child abuse too. There was a story in Wales
    Former Birmingham police officer Raymond Ketland, 66, of Nant y Coed, Glan Conwy, became involved with the girl after noticing sexual activity on Llanddulas beach.

    He admitted two charges of sexual activity with a minor, taking indecent photographs of a child and facilitating a child sex offence, and was jailed for two and a half years.

    Ketland had become involved partly through a fellow Mason.

    Andrew Thomas, prosecuting, said: "He recognised one of them as a fellow member of his Masonic Lodge, who walked up to him and asked 'Do you want to have a bit of fun?' He pointed out a girl who was with them."

    Mr Thomas later confirmed Ket-land had refused to divulge the identity of his fellow Mason to investigating officers.

    Catholic Bishop Gerard Crane, called as a character witness by Ketland's defence, said his friend was "totally distraught" at what had happened.

    Nothing new there, Freemasons always involved in some kind of criminality.


  • #167
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Yep, Cognitive Dissonance.

    In the unconscious part of the public's mind, they know these things go on, they just don't want to accept it as being factual.

    Edward Heath was accused of being a child rapist and murderer long before his death and yet he never challenged the allegations against him in any court.

    Freemasons covered up child abuse too. There was a story in Wales



    Nothing new there, Freemasons always involved in some kind of criminality.

    I think it's more or less proven Freemasons were involved in the Welsh care home abuse scandal but the allegations about Heath are totally unproven and speculative. He may well have been gay but no evidence he abused kids. Even post Savile scandal no alleged victims have come forwards.


  • #168
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    porsche959 wrote: »
    Even post Savile scandal no alleged victims have come forwards.

    It's not uncommon for boys to go missing to cover up crimes committed on them. They're abused and then murdered. Take the Franklin cover up or Marc DeTroux part of a pedophile ring that was never investigated properly by Belgian police....it's always the same wealthy people in powerful positions that can cover up this stuff and get away with it.
    Conspiracy of Silence, a documentary listed for viewing in TV Guide Magazine was to be aired on the Discovery Channel, on May 3 1994.

    This documentary exposed a network of religious leaders and Washington politicians who flew children to Washington D.C. for sex orgies.

    Many children suffered the indignity of wearing nothing but their underwear and a number displayed on a piece of cardboard hanging from their necks when being auctioned off to foreigners in Las Vegas, Nevada, and Toronto, Canada.

    At the last minute before airing, unknown congressmen threatened the TV Cable industry with restrictive legislation if this documentary was aired. Almost immediately, the rights to the documentary were purchased by unknown persons who ordered all copies destroyed


  • #169
    enno99
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭enno99


    Elite child sex slaves "1981" forgotten documentary




    watched this long time ago now cant remember if it was posted here
    remember reading that the school teacher suicided himself after


  • #170
    enno99
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭enno99


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6FKEwjPmHQ


  • #171
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Yep, Cognitive Dissonance.

    In the unconscious part of the public's mind, they know these things go on, they just don't want to accept it as being factual.

    Even just staying with Savile, there are numerous photos of him easily available on web with Prince Charles, the Duke of Edinburgh, other royals and other high profile figures - yet most of public simply doesn't want to know or even ask any questions.


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  • #172
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Yep, Cognitive Dissonance.
    Or an unwillingless to cast allegations without proof? There is a lot more information (both reliable and otherwise) now than there was back then...
    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Edward Heath was accused of being a child rapist and murderer long before his death and yet he never challenged the allegations against him in any court.
    Is there any evidence that he was even aware of the accusations? He would have to have known about them and considered them sufficiently damaging to be worth pursuing before challenging them in court surely?
    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Freemasons covered up child abuse too. There was a story in Wales
    Where was the bit where Freemasons covered it up? There was one member of the ring who was a Freemason, and possibly one other. Where was the cover-up?
    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Nothing new there, Freemasons always involved in some kind of criminality.
    Surely you mean; nothing new there, Freemasons are always being accused of being involved in some sort of criminality?
    porsche959 wrote: »
    I think it's more or less proven Freemasons were involved in the Welsh care home abuse scandal
    Actually, i don't think so. I think there were plenty of unsubstantiated allegations thrown around (Brown Bomber can probably dredge up a few of them), but I think it's more or less proven that there was no Masonic conspiracy.


  • #173
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    Elements of any organized group involved in criminal acts would never allow Saville knowing too much about their activities without something personal hanging over his head too. In this case, it was child abuse.

    To take that chance is to risk being given up to the authorities someday by Saville.

    Jimmy Saville knew personal things about rich, famous, powerful individuals and they knew of him and what he did, that's why Saville got away with it all for so long. If you have a more reasonable explanation, let's hear it.

    He was never arrested and charged because he knew too many personal things about the wealthy.

    Even street gangs don't allow members inside their inner circle without first being bloody or doing time in jail.


  • #174
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Elements of any organized group involved in criminal acts would never allow Saville knowing too much about their activities without something personal hanging over his head too. In this case, it was child abuse. To take that chance is to risk being given up to the authorities someday by Saville.
    What organized group involved in criminal acts precisley?
    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Jimmy Saville knew personal things about rich, famous, powerful individuals and they knew of him and what he did, that's why Saville got away with it all for so long. If you have a more reasonable explanation, let's hear it.
    Well, maybe that they didn't know of him and what he did?
    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    He was never arrested and charged because he knew too many personal things about the wealthy.
    Possibly. Or there was never sufficient evidence presented to convince the DPP that they could successfully prosecute such a famous philanthropist without risking their careers. I'm not saying he wasn't by all current accounts an entirely disgusting predator, just that 'it's all down to cognitive dissonance and freemasons' is a bit silly.


  • #175
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    Absolam wrote: »
    What organized group involved in criminal acts precisley?
    Well, maybe that they didn't know of him and what he did?
    Possibly. Or there was never sufficient evidence presented to convince the DPP that they could successfully prosecute such a famous philanthropist without risking their careers. I'm not saying he wasn't by all current accounts an entirely disgusting predator, just that 'it's all down to cognitive dissonance and freemasons' is a bit silly.

    Really?

    Yet, many people working in television witnessed him along with under age girls innumerable times over a 50 year career, but of course, you think nobody suspected anything strange, right?

    ....you're displaying cognitive dissonance yourself with that belief.


  • #176
    Torakx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Torakx


    There as been many interviews where eye witnesses have seen him literally abusing children and teenagers, only to keep their mouths shut out of fear. And a rational fear at that. The man was a sociopath at the least, possibly a psychopath, it's a little hard to tellwith him. He was extremely egotistical and narcicistic. Also considering him upbringing with "the duchess" his mother and the stuff she did to him(dressed him up like a girl right?), I would also lean towards sociopath. Not that I'm an expert or anything.

    Either way, many people knew quite well that he was a dangerous man and a rampant pedophile. Sure he was fiddling with girls on live tv....
    And thats where I agree with the cognitive dissonance too.
    I saw those clips for the first time and thought it was extmeely obvious he was messing around with them on the stage. Of course you can say I had the benfit of hindsight, which is partly true. But it was very obvious if you watch them and people jst don't see what they do not want to know about.


  • #177
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Really?
    Really. But if you have any factual answers to the questions I asked, I'll happily read them?
    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Yet, many people working in television witnessed him along with under age girls innumerable times over a 50 year career, but of course, you think nobody suspected anything strange, right?
    So, how do you get from 'insufficient evidence' to 'nobody suspected anything strange'? Is that cognitive dissonance, or just old fashioned hyperbole?
    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    ....you're displaying cognitive dissonance yourself with that belief.
    Of course, because being skeptical of unfounded speculation and saying so is inconsistent with, eh, believing the speculation to be unfounded? Sorry, I'm afraid you'll have to explain how saying something is silly, and knowing that something is silly, is cognitively dissonant?


  • #178
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    Absolam wrote: »
    Really. But if you have any factual answers to the questions I asked, I'll happily read them?

    The best option is that you read about Jimmy Saville, that will answer all your questions. Hope that helps.
    Of course, because being skeptical of unfounded speculation and saying so is inconsistent with, eh, believing the speculation to be unfounded? Sorry, I'm afraid you'll have to explain how saying something is silly, and knowing that something is silly, is cognitively dissonant?

    You're entitled to your own opinion, Absolam. I'm not here to convince you Jimmy Saville was protected by wealthy people. I think it's self-evident he was otherwise he would have been locked up along time ago for abusing children.

    Perhaps you find that difficult to accept because you're a Freemason and you feel personally offended by my accusations but that's your problem.


  • #179
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    The best option is that you read about Jimmy Saville, that will answer all your questions. Hope that helps.
    Thanks. Bizarrely, I decided to acquaint myself with the facts before posting on the thread, which is why I challenged your assertions about Heath and Freemasons.
    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    I'm not here to convince you Jimmy Saville was protected by wealthy people. I think it's self-evident he was otherwise he would have been locked up along time ago for abusing children.
    Self evident? As in, you have no actual evidence, so you simply believe it's true?
    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Perhaps you find that difficult to accept because you're a Freemason and you feel personally offended by my accusations but that's your problem.
    No it's easy to accept that you've arrived at judgements based on your imagination rather than evidence, but you're right; I am personally offended when you offer lies as facts (such as Freemasons covered up child abuse )because you couldn't be bothered finding out the actual facts.


  • #180
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    Absolam wrote: »
    Thanks. Bizarrely, I decided to acquaint myself with the facts before posting on the thread, which is why I challenged your assertions about Heath and Freemasons.

    Self evident? As in, you have no actual evidence, so you simply believe it's true?
    No it's easy to accept that you've arrived at judgements based on your imagination rather than evidence, but you're right; I am personally offended when you offer lies as facts (such as Freemasons covered up child abuse )because you couldn't be bothered finding out the actual facts.

    Thank you, Absolam.

    You've clarified everything I ever wanted to know about Jimmy Saville and his high level connections.

    It's my opinion Freemasons have covered up child abuse. My opinion, you see?

    If a Freemason goes down for something illegal, he might give up his buddies and their illegal activities what ever they might be, that's how it works.


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  • #181
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Thank you, Absolam. You've clarified everything I ever wanted to know about Jimmy Saville and his high level connections.
    Perhaps it's that attitude to rigorous inquiry that led to you make untruthful statements in the first place?
    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    It's my opinion Freemasons have covered up child abuse. My opinion, you see?
    Well done. At least now you simply have an erroneous opinion, instead of claiming a lie as a fact.
    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    If a Freemason goes down for something illegal, he might give up his buddies and their illegal activities what ever they might be, that's how it works.
    That's a little bit obtuse. That's how what works?


  • #182
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    Absolam wrote: »
    Perhaps it's that attitude to rigorous inquiry that led to you make untruthful statements in the first place?

    I can appreciate you're upset because it's guilt by association but I certainly didn't accuse you personally of being involved in any criminal activity due to your association with the Freemasons so there's no need to be so defensive.

    You're entitled to your opinion on whether my opinions are silly or not but your opinion isn't fact.


  • #183
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    I can appreciate you're upset because it's guilt by association but I certainly didn't accuse you personally of being involved in any criminal activity due to your association with the Freemasons so there's no need to be so defensive.
    I think you're confusing ennui with defensiveness; were the Grand Lodge of England co-ordinating every Lodge on the island to cover up the most heinous of crimes I wouldn't feel any 'guilt by association'; but when you blatantly state
    'Freemasons covered up child abuse' knowing you are stating your (baseless) opinion as a fact that is certainly annoying.
    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    You're entitled to your opinion on whether my opinions are silly or not but your opinion isn't fact.
    You're right, it's my opinion based on the facts you've presented.


  • #184
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    You're very sensitive to this whole Freemason thing, Absolam.


  • #185
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Absolam wrote: »
    Perhaps it's that attitude to rigorous inquiry that led to you make untruthful statements in the first place?
    Well done. At least now you simply have an erroneous opinion, instead of claiming a lie as a fact.
    That's a little bit obtuse. That's how what works?

    Absolam,

    I don't think anyone is accusing freemasonry of being pro-child abuse. I think the issue is that people are far more prone to covering up criminality of another if they have a loyalty to the other. For regular people this "loyalty" doesn't extend beyond close family and friends. A freemason has millions of "brothers" around the world.

    If a regular person's "brother" was being investigated/accused of a crime and the brother was a judge, jury or detective etc then the brother would excuse himself due to a conflict of interest.

    This is all out in the open and justice can be served. A freemasonic brotherhood and it's members is shrouded in secrecy.

    If a freemason is standing before a "brother" judge or jury he can give some signal known only to initiates of the secret society to communicate their shared brotherhood and there is the very potential of a travesty of justice and no regular people would have any idea.

    Now, if you have a better theory than Sir Jimmy Saville being protected to explain how he could get away with so much abuse for so long I'd love to hear it.


  • #186
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    I think the issue is that people are far more prone to covering up criminality of another if they have a loyalty to the other. For regular people this "loyalty" doesn't extend beyond close family and friends. A freemason has millions of "brothers" around the world.
    So, your insinuation is a Freemason is not a 'regular' person, so is more prone to cover up the criminality of millions of 'brothers'? What makes you imagine that a Freemason feels a familial level of loyalty to millions of people whom he has never met? Freemasons come from all walks of life and all backgrounds, they're as regular as any other person, and have the same capacity for loyalty as 'regular' people.
    Let's try one of your types of examples; would you criminally cover up your natural born brother's pedophilic crimes if you became aware of them? Some people would, some people wouldn't. And as 'regular' people, Freemasons are the same; some would and some wouldn't.
    Would you extent the same level of loyalty to your close friend as your natural born brother? Again, with Freemasons being 'regular' people; some would and some wouldn't.
    Further, would you extend that level of loyalty to a member of a golf club affiliated to your own? The number of 'regular' people who would is vanishingly small; and the same goes for Freemasons. If I ever travel to Sweden or Chile, I can be assured of a warm welcome, a seat in a Lodge and a hot meal, but I wouldn't imagine any of them will bail me out of jail or supply me with illegal substances; they don't know me and they're under no obligation to do so.
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    If a regular person's "brother" was being investigated/accused of a crime and the brother was a judge, jury or detective etc then the brother would excuse himself due to a conflict of interest.
    Indeed, and if a Freemasons' familial brother was being investigated/accused of a crime and he was a judge, jury or detective etc then the Freemason would excuse himself due to a conflict of interest, seeing as how Freemasons are also regular people. Obviously you're trying to use the fact that Freemasons use the term 'brother' to describe fellow members to pretend that a familial level of loyalty exists between all Freemasons, but that is simply not the case, nor is there any cause to believe it is so.
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    A freemasonic brotherhood and it's members is shrouded in secrecy.
    It's a wonderful phrase and all, but what are you suggesting it means? Meeting places are not secret, most members don't keep their membership secret, rules are not secret. What exactly is 'shrouded in secrecy' that is likely to thwart the service of justice?
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    If a freemason is standing before a "brother" judge or jury he can give some signal known only to initiates of the secret society to communicate their shared brotherhood and there is the very potential of a travesty of justice and no regular people would have any idea.
    Really? How do you know he can give some signal known only to initiates of the secret society and regular people would have no idea? Surely, if he could, you would have no idea? Because if you have an idea, then obviously, he can't?
    But let's pretend your logical fallacy doesn't exist, let's say the defendant wears his masonic School tie to his hearing, with his masonic Golf club pin on his jacket, and when the judge sternly peers his way he gives the secret masonic GAA signal for a player in need of aid on the pitch. What then? Nothing in Freemasonry compels him to do anything different; he's not obliged to give any assistance to the accused other than that which his obligation as Judge requires him to give every defendant.
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Now, if you have a better theory than Sir Jimmy Saville being protected to explain how he could get away with so much abuse for so long I'd love to hear it.
    Better theory than what? There hasn't been a theory put forward yet; Harold Weiss' assertions that it's 'Cognitive Dissonance', 'Freemasons covered up child abuse' and of course 'Freemasons always involved in some kind of criminality' isn't exactly a theory.
    I've no doubt (and certainly no proof) that Saville had tremendous influence in British society and used that influence to deflect enquiries from his foul activities. I also wouldn't be surprised (though I would be disgusted) if some of the people who should have done something and didn't were Freemasons; Freemasons are 'regular' people as I said and it's unlikely that in the very wide social circles Saville had that there would have been no Freemasons at all.


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  • #187
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    Absolam wrote:
    Brown Bomber wrote:
    A freemasonic brotherhood and it's members is shrouded in secrecy.

    It's a wonderful phrase and all, but what are you suggesting it means? Meeting places are not secret, most members don't keep their membership secret, rules are not secret. What exactly is 'shrouded in secrecy' that is likely to thwart the service of justice?

    Absolam, I want to join the Freemasons, how can I join?
    Where do I apply for membership?


  • #188
    enno99
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭enno99


    Absolam wrote: »
    I also wouldn't be surprised (though I would be disgusted) if some of the people who should have done something and didn't were Freemasons; Freemasons are 'regular' people as I said and it's unlikely that in the very wide social circles Saville had that there would have been no Freemasons at all.







    I recall sitting with my sponsor for three hours, who, during this time, did a very good job of answering all my questions, and quite frankly, telling me absolutely nothing. But, the one comment he did make that tweaked my interest, was that “Freemasonry takes a good man and makes him better”.

    Epic fail in this instance so

    Or maybe not perhaps they just took good men and made them good Freemasons


    http://freemasoninformation.com/2012/07/a-young-masons-journey-to-find-the-making-of-a-good-man-better/


  • #189
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Absolam, I want to join the Freemasons, how can I join?
    Where do I apply for membership?

    I don't think you do Harold, I think you're telling fibs. Didn't you say Freemasons are always involved in criminality? Why would you want to join an organisation you believe is involved in criminality? Should we think you want to be a criminal, or should we think you're telling fibs?


  • #190
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    enno99 wrote: »
    I recall sitting with my sponsor for three hours, who, during this time, did a very good job of answering all my questions, and quite frankly, telling me absolutely nothing. But, the one comment he did make that tweaked my interest, was that “Freemasonry takes a good man and makes him better”.Epic fail in this instance so Or maybe not perhaps they just took a good men and made him a good Freemasons
    The fellow who wrote the article seems pleasant enough; I hardly think it's fair to call him an epic fail.


  • #191
    enno99
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭enno99


    Absolam wrote: »
    The fellow who wrote the article seems pleasant enough; I hardly think it's fair to call him an epic fail.

    Ah sure I was talking about the ones you alluded to but you know that right
    you just go ahead and ignore the bit where I said men and freemasons if it helps


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  • #192
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    Absolam wrote: »
    I don't think you do Harold, I think you're telling fibs. Didn't you say Freemasons are always involved in criminality? Why would you want to join an organisation you believe is involved in criminality? Should we think you want to be a criminal, or should we think you're telling fibs?

    Honestly, I'd like to establish some contacts within the criminal underworld and the Freemasons seems like a reasonably good place to start.

    To be serious though, why don't you tell me how to join? I'd really love to know.


  • #193
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Honestly, I'd like to establish some contacts within the criminal underworld and the Freemasons seems like a reasonably good place to start.

    To be serious though, why don't you tell me how to join? I'd really love to know.

    I know boards is taken to be the oracle of all wisdom but you could have tried a google search...

    Ill save yer fingers.... Click on this link here .

    they have an email address too but you have to have the third eye of solomon to see it on the webpage.


  • #194
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    How do I join?

    Thank you for expressing an interest in Freemasonry by seeking out this information.
    What are the qualifications?

    Freemasonry is proud of its philosophy and practice of "making good men better." Only individuals believed to be of good character are favourably considered for membership. Every applicant must be 21 years of age or more and respected in his locality.
    Armelodie wrote: »
    I know boards is taken to be the oracle of all wisdom but you could have tried a google search...

    Ill save yer fingers.... Click on this link here .

    they have an email address too but you have to have the third eye of solomon to see it on the webpage.

    Right. Now we've established the criteria, it seems to be an elitist club where Only individuals believed to be of good character are favourably considered for membership. which is very vague but no doubt you can explain it to me.

    Seems if you're unknown to existing members of the club, you can't join, correct?
    Sounds like some Ivy League club for bored rich people, Skull and Bones type thing where to swear allegiance to the lodge, you have to run around a field naked, is that possibly true?


    Much obliged.


  • #195
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Right. Now we've established the criteria, it seems to be an elitist club where Only individuals believed to be of good character are favourably considered for membership. which is very vague but no doubt you can explain it to me.

    Seems if you're unknown to existing members of the club, you can't join, correct?
    Sounds like some Ivy League club for bored rich people, Skull and Bones type thing where to swear allegiance to the lodge, you have to run around a field naked, is that possibly true?


    Much obliged.

    Jeez, what did your last slave die of anyway? The email addresss is office@freemason.ie .
    Stick on yer tinfoil hat and direct your questions to the recruitment section there, you seem to have a lot to ask.

    So what, they don't want anyone with a criminal conviction, neither does the girl guides. Thats their own choice. If they did accept criminals then you would definitely find a criminal conspiracy.

    How does this relate to jimmy saville anyway, Answer me that?


  • #196
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    I don't much care for the Masons, but there is no proof Savile ever was one.


  • #197
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    Armelodie wrote: »

    How does this relate to jimmy saville anyway, Answer me that?

    It doesn't - it's a complete distraction, unless someone can prove that Savile was ever, at any time, a Freemason.


  • #198
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    Armelodie wrote: »
    Jeez, what did your last slave die of anyway? The email addresss is office@freemason.ie .
    Stick on yer tinfoil hat and direct your questions to the recruitment section there, you seem to have a lot to ask.

    Oh my, how original. You're too funny, must have taken you a while to think of that one.
    Anyway...Absolam is a Freemason, why would I need to email anyone?
    How does this relate to jimmy saville anyway, Answer me that?

    The flip side is why else would Jimmy Saville get away for 50 years abusing children? Not an easy question to answer but have a go anyway.


  • #199
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    porsche959 wrote: »
    It doesn't - it's a complete distraction, unless someone can prove that Savile was ever, at any time, a Freemason.

    No, he probably wasn't a mason but can you explain how he managed to evade arrest and conviction for abusing children over a 50 year career?


  • #200
    Frankie Lee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,285 ✭✭✭Frankie Lee


    porsche959 wrote: »
    I don't much care for the Masons, but there is no proof Savile ever was one.

    There was members of a quasi-masonic type group represented at his funeral. This group has not been investigated to the best of my knowledge.

    freemasonsswarmsavilles.jpg


  • #201
    Torakx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Torakx


    Lets start digging :)

    Opps I just realized that could be taken out of context...
    I meant for clues.


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