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Cameron's Plan For No-Fly Zone Over Libya

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    Photo taken today, 2 RAF E-3Ds and a U-2 at RAF Akrotiri.

    98c26f2c-fa54-44f6-b3b7-d4a1adc6556e.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,266 ✭✭✭Steyr


    Breaking: Italian Defence Minister: "if necessary Italy will join the coalition with radar suppression assets" i.e. Tornado ECR of 155 Gr.

    Italy has given Amendola, Gioia del Colle, Decimomannu, Aviano, Trapani, Sigonella and Pantelleria to the coalition of the willing.

    Italian aircraft carrier Garibaldi, left Taranto for Libya. According to the news it's "fully armed". AV8Bs Harrier on board.

    Netherlands Coastguard NCG03 Dornier 228-212 tail nr PH-CGN operating VFR near Malta.

    Three USAF 318th SOS PZL M-28 Skytruck from Cannon AFB arrived last night at NAS Sigonella tail nrs N824KD, N319TW and N317JG.

    Over Italy heading Malta: French Air Force E-3F Sentry tail nr 202/36-CB as FAF 9008.

    ______

    All within the last few hours.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    U.S. officials say attempts to ground Gadhafi's air force could begin by Sunday or Monday with the use of jet fighters, bombers and surveillance aircraft.

    http://www.9and10news.com/Category/Story/?id=285248&cID=3

    Could be disinformation.

    Anyway, Obama to speak later this evening.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    @cencio4 David Cenciotti
    Breaking: Italian aircraft carrier Garibaldi, left Taranto for Libya. According to the news it's "fully armed". AV8Bs Harrier on board?

    Is it ever not fully armed?

    Libyan rebel commander says the Gadhafi ceasefire is "not important to us" - AFP

    Here starts the problem. Unilateral cease fire by the government. None by the rebels .... is there a united rebel front? Will one rebel group decide to keep going regardless if an overall cease fire is declared? Which rebel group is more legitimate than the other?

    Are we going to end up with a stalemate of two mobs with ak47s. Will the west provide military aid to the rebels?

    Apparently there is also the tribes in the Libyan interior who have so far sat on the fence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    BrianD wrote: »
    Here starts the problem. Unilateral cease fire by the government. None by the rebels .... is there a united rebel front? Will one rebel group decide to keep going regardless if an overall cease fire is declared? Which rebel group is more legitimate than the other?


    According to doctors at a medical center in Misurata that town is still getting shelled by Gaddafi forces. No video proof yet so have to take it with a pinch of salt & it could just be a case of delay in communication from Tripoli to forces in the field but it seems there may not be a ceassefire yet anyway.

    Also, looking at the wording of the UN resolution....
    all necessary measures...to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack

    ...seems to authorise force even if there is a ceasefire in place. E.g. tanks surrounding a town but not firing is still a civilian area "under threat".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    According to doctors at a medical center in Misurata that town is still getting shelled by Gaddafi forces. No video proof yet so have to take it with a pinch of salt & it could just be a case of delay in communication from Tripoli to forces in the field but it seems there may not be a ceassefire yet anyway.

    Also, looking at the wording of the UN resolution....



    ...seems to authorise force even if there is a ceasefire in place. E.g. tanks surrounding a town but not firing is still a civilian area "under threat".

    I have noted that. But if you start attacking ground forces then you rapidly move into a state of war even if it is within the resolution.

    Destroy the Gaddaffy hardware and it's down to who has most AK47s and prepared to use them.

    The military solution will only bring about a stalemate. Political dialogue seems to be lacking.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Al Jazeera are reporting that Gadaffi troops are advancing on Benghazi tonight. They've bypassed Ajdabia and are 50km away they say.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,266 ✭✭✭Steyr


    UK Sentinel R1's active ASCOT 7352 tail nr ZJ691 at FL270 and SNAPSHOT 1 tail nr ZJ693 at FL450.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    And these on the way

    FMCNL
    Canadian Air Force CFC3815 & CFC3816 are Airbus CC-150 Polaris Tankers, I presume formation flight /w 6 Hornets CF-18


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,266 ✭✭✭Steyr


    CFC 3816 with position reports /w Gander 5616.0 kHz: 57N40W 20:28 FL250, 57N30W 21:19 FL270


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    hmmm wrote: »
    Al Jazeera are reporting that Gadaffi troops are advancing on Benghazi tonight. They've bypassed Ajdabia and are 50km away they say.

    Seems to be backed up by this.

    RT @Reuters: FLASH: Gaddafi forces continuing to advance toward Benghazi despite proclaimed ceasefire: U.S. National Security official


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Video from Misrata, claimed to be today. Burning MBTs and APC
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJI57boOfEs


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    Sounds like the US will not actually be actively enforcing the NFZ...
    Obama told Congressional leaders that "he had not authorized troops on the ground or airplanes," a staffer to one of the Congress members said Friday on condition of anonymity. "He stressed the U.S. is diplomatically supporting the no-fly zone, not the enforcement itself."

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theenvoy/20110318/pl_yblog_theenvoy/obama-outlines-limited-u-s-role-in-libya


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Sounds like the US will not actually be actively enforcing the NFZ...
    That'd be extraordinary, I hope it's not true. The last thing that's needed is for a couple of Rafales and Typhoons to fly around impotently and for Gadaffi to realise he hasn't much to fear. That would lead to all sorts of complications both now and in the future.

    Obama did say that the US would "enable" the no fly zone, so that doesn't rule out cruise missiles and attacks on radar etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 882 ✭✭✭LondonIrish90


    hmmm wrote: »
    That'd be extraordinary, I hope it's not true. The last thing that's needed is for a couple of Rafales and Typhoons to fly around impotently and for Gadaffi to realise he hasn't much to fear. That would lead to all sorts of complications both now and in the future.

    Obama did say that the US would "enable" the no fly zone, so that doesn't rule out cruise missiles and attacks on radar etc.

    I saw on twitter that Tornado GR4s have also been stationed at RAF Akrotiri along with the Typhoons.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    hmmm wrote: »
    That'd be extraordinary, I hope it's not true. The last thing that's needed is for a couple of Rafales and Typhoons to fly around impotently and for Gadaffi to realise he hasn't much to fear. That would lead to all sorts of complications both now and in the future.

    Obama did say that the US would "enable" the no fly zone, so that doesn't rule out cruise missiles and attacks on radar etc.

    i don't think i'd ever describe Typhoons or Rafales with AWACS, Tanker and ELINT support as 'impotent'. i can think of one platform such a force might have a problem with, but Libya certainly doesn't have them...

    Barry may not be sending USAF F-15's, but he's certainly sending U-2's, Tankers, AWACS, combat search and rescue units, ELINTS and all the business.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,266 ✭✭✭Steyr


    I note that 2 Nimrods that were due to be scrapped are now being kept..


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12782642


    Libya's Gaddafi given ultimatum

    The ceasefire announced by Col Gaddafi is highly unlikely to halt the military planning which is going on.

    The pressure from the UN may have worked in the short term, but France, the UK and others will need reassurance that this is more than a delaying tactic from the Libyan leader.

    The United Nations backed "all necessary measures", short of using ground forces, to protect the civilian population in Libya.

    It's a far more wide-ranging resolution than some had anticipated, and one which gives a "coalition of the willing" carte blanche to take on not only Col Gaddafi's air defences and air force, but also his ground forces if they were to continue to threaten civilians.

    'A military lead'

    Those countries taking part in the coalition still need to decide who leads this mission, and what action they will take if the ceasefire breaks down.

    It is not yet clear who the commander of the operation will be, where it will be headquartered and what Nato assets might be used.

    The fact that the British Prime Minister is going to France on Saturday could be an indication that, having taken the diplomatic lead on recognising the rebels, France is also keen to take a military lead.

    That meeting will be a chance to discuss what happens next, and how the pressure can be kept up to ensure the ceasefire holds.

    According to David Cameron, Britain will deploy Tornados and Typhoon aircraft, as well as air-to-air refuelling and surveillance aircraft.

    He told Parliament on Friday that preparations to deploy those aircraft had already started, and that in the coming hours they would move to airbases from where they could start to take the necessary action.

    The Tornado GR4, equipped with precision weapons, is among the first assets the UK could use to defend a no-fly zone to protect Libyan civilians from action by forces loyal to Col Gaddafi.

    The planes are stationed at RAF Marham in Norfolk and RAF Lossiemouth in Moray, though it is not yet clear which military base they would ultimately fly from. The options include bases in southern France, southern Italy or RAF Akrotiri in Cyprus.

    GR4s are ground attack aircraft, so could be used either to remove Libya's air defences if that were still deemed to be necessary, or to protect civilians from the ground forces which currently pose the main threat.

    Potential targets

    Typhoons, based at RAF Coningsby in Lincolnshire and RAF Leuchars in Fife, would be likely to be used in an air-to-air role if Col Gaddafi's air force challenged the no-fly zone.

    VC10 tankers could perform refuelling and Nimrod R1 and Sentinel R1 are also likely to be involved in surveillance and reconnaissance.

    Those performing the missions in the air will also need good intelligence from the ground, whether that is from rebel forces or foreign special forces based in Libya, not least to ensure that there are no civilians in or near potential targets.

    Civilian casualties are one of the main risks of such an air operation if Libyan troops were to move closer to the city.

    In effect, there are two air missions to be carried out: one to establish a round-the-clock no-fly zone, and the other to prevent Libyan forces bombarding or approaching Benghazi if the ceasefire fails.

    Both operations might require the destruction of some of the Libyan government's air defences, although it is not yet clear whether this would be done at the start of any operation, or only if and when coalition aircraft are engaged by Libyan government radars.

    French and British aircraft are certain to be involved in policing the no-fly zone, though Paris and London will be keen for Arab air force involvement as well, even if mainly in support roles. It's thought Qatar and the UAE are the most likely to join the coalition.

    The goal of the UN resolution was to get a ceasefire and halt the fighting, so the shock effect seems to have worked - for now, at least. It has demonstrated to Col Gaddafi and his forces that the outside world is serious about preventing harm to Libyan civilians.

    This crisis in Libya and recent events across the Middle East may well help the RAF, which had to fight its corner in the British government's strategic defence and security review in October, and is currently doing so again, with further MoD cuts apparently needing to be made for 2011-12.

    The RAF had feared losing more of its Tornado GR4 fleet in order to save up to £300m a year, and may now be able to argue a stronger case for keeping them on.

    Nimrod R1s are also showing how crucial they are in a reconnaissance role, while the Sentinel R1 - scheduled to be scrapped by early 2015 in the review, once their role in Afghanistan is finished - is also again proving its worth.

    Many in defence have already expressed their regret about the loss of HMS Ark Royal and the Harriers.

    Some will now be wondering whether the Libya crisis could call more of the strategic defence and security review's conclusions into question, and perhaps even prompt a fresh look at the UK's military assets.

    Some analysts question whether a government wishing to take a leading role on the world stage can afford to lose yet more military capability and personnel at a time when world events are proving more unpredictable than ever.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    Some pics of preparations at RAF Marham Friday morning :

    15955481.jpg

    15955482.jpg

    photo_1300478580909-1-0.jpg?1300489616


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,266 ✭✭✭Steyr


    USAF KC-10A tail nr 86-0036 as RCH 559, just switched ident in flight to RCH 036 at FL290 while overhead Mediterranean Sea.

    USAF KC-10A tail nr 86-0036 now as RCH 036 in climb to FL340 heading Italy.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    OS119 wrote: »
    i don't think i'd ever describe Typhoons or Rafales with AWACS, Tanker and ELINT support as 'impotent'. i can think of one platform such a force might have a problem with, but Libya certainly doesn't have them...
    Unless they're sending fleets of them they won't be much use against a hundred tanks attacking Benghazi, Misrata and Tobruk.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,266 ✭✭✭Steyr


    OS, Do you think they should have sent HMS Ocean?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    Journalists see plane bomb area southwest of Benghazi, Libya, and 2 columns of smoke in area - AFP

    Libyan rebels say they retreating back towards Benghazi under attack from Gaddafi forces - Reuters witness

    Forces loyal to Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi enter rebel-held city of Benghazi - Al-Jazeera via Reuters

    Just saw a plane shot down over Benghazi live on TV. Crazy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,490 ✭✭✭pegasus1


    just seen a gaddafi fighter jet shot out of the sky in beghazi Live on sky news...! this same fighter jet was seen flying overhead..

    no coalition planes in the area!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    To me, looks like that plane that was shot down was a Mig-23.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    Steyr wrote: »
    OS, Do you think they should have sent HMS Ocean?

    Ocean with an AH-64 group aboard would be an astonishingly effective way of getting to grips with what looks like hard fighting within Benghazi - rather more effective than plinking tanks and pick-ups with LGB's and Brimstone from 15,000 with a Tornado GR4.

    SDSR looks in tatters. thank fcuk.

    looked like a MiG23/27 to me too - sharp, slim, single fin, angle and shape of the wings. brings an interesting point actually - given the err... somewhat confused nature of the opposition, its quite likely that no NATO aircraft will go below 15,000ft just to avoid being shot down by their new friends. i can't tell the difference between an a Tornado and a MiG-23/27 at 10,000ft, so why should i expect some poor bugger who thinks he's being shot at to be able to tell the difference?

    looks like it'll be a 'cutting it off' job rather than 'killing it' - regime forces in the desert are goung to get fcuked, but those in Benghazi are going to have to be dealt with, by and large, by the opposition itself.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    m1gz1d1a4oo0_700.jpg

    Libyan Mig-23 :

    927.jpg

    Unconfirmed reports that the plane might have actually been rebel-controlled and in fact shot down by Gaddafi forces.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    bloody late ejection.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    The Libyan Rebels are claiming it was their plane that was shot down by Gadaffy forces.

    I assume the no fly zone applies to all aircraft from either side.

    According to reports Gadaffy troops are already in the Benghazi suburbs but their seems to be a lot of unverified reports from both sides.

    Update: Latest claim is that the rebel operated plane developed a mechanical fault and crashed as a result.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    French are saying that military action could begin as soon as the Paris meeting ends today. But they made similar remarks about it starting as soon as the UN vote was passed, so, pinch of salt.

    Canadian F18s have departed Prestwick, heading south to Italy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    French are saying that military action could begin as soon as the Paris meeting ends today. But they made similar remarks about it starting as soon as the UN vote was passed, so, pinch of salt.

    Canadian F18s have departed Prestwick, heading south to Italy.

    Yes, with the pilots waving at the pre-positioned camera crews. All part of the propaganda war.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    French TV reporting that French jets are over Libya now.

    Edit : French reconnaissance planes flying over Libya - French military source

    Mirage F1CR?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    "martinchulov
    French air force is first into fray in #Libya. Part of the delay was to tell anxious rebel gunners not to shoot. "

    Chulov has been well informed to date.

    Canada has said it needs 2 days to prepare its jets before they can take part
    http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Canada+needs+days+prepare+jets+Libya/4471153/story.html

    "French military source told AFP several Rafale jets overflew Libya today on reconnaissance missions."
    This suggests the speculation on Arab TV that French jets are overhead is misreporting earlier recon missions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,266 ✭✭✭Steyr


    Denmark is to send six F-16 fighters for the NFZ over Libya. The military transport aircraft DAF1607 has also arrived in Theatre.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    AP quoting a French official as saying Mirage and Rafale jets over Benghazi area, "could target tanks".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,266 ✭✭✭Steyr


    Heavily encrypted SATCOM traffic 252.6375 MHz for the Libyan No Fly Zone.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    French aircraft carrier CDG departing Toulon tomorrow.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    Wonder what deal was done with Quatar, Saudi Arabia and UAE. Leave us to sort out Bahrain?

    Ironic, that these countries are all having similar domestic issues.
    "martinchulov
    French air force is first into fray in #Libya. Part of the delay was to tell anxious rebel gunners not to shoot. "

    Would the rebels take out a no-fly enforcing plane to speed up the process? Can they be trusted?
    AP quoting a French official as saying Mirage and Rafale jets over Benghazi area, "could target tanks".

    Can they tell the difference between both sides in urban areas? Same equipment and same uniforms in use by both sides.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭GarethQ


    It wont be a no-fly zone for long as there are gonna be fighters bombing hard today/tomorrow.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    Several Libyan armd vehicles destroyed by French planes.

    Reports that a US cruise missile attack will follow later this evening.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭GarethQ


    Considering a tomahawk can take a whole town, the current position of the Libyan armys attacks on Rebels will be bombed.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    Yes the French have started their product demonstrations for future weapon sales to Libya.

    Sarkohzy is obviously making up for backing the wrong horse in Tunisia,

    Given their adventures in Chad and the fact that were doing joint exercises with the Libyan Air Force last October, the French probably have a greater insight into the Libyan military than most.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    GarethQ wrote: »
    Considering a tomahawk can take a whole town, the current position of the Libyan armys attacks on Rebels will be bombed.

    AP: US navy planning sea-launched missile attack from Med on #Libya's coastal air defenses, one official said.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭GarethQ


    Even better, then more jets can storm the major cities, there should also be raids on remote areas in search of Gadafe (or w.e the spelling is)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,717 ✭✭✭Raging_Ninja


    Took them long enough.

    Given their adventures in Chad and the fact that were doing joint exercises with the Libyan Air Force last October, the French probably have a greater insight into the Libyan military than most.

    Just because you don't like people doesn't mean you can ignore them. Like it or not, Libya has extensive valuable resources that the western world needs access to in order to keep moving.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭GarethQ


    Took them long enough.



    Just because you don't like people doesn't mean you can ignore them. Like it or not, Libya has extensive valuable resources that the western world needs access to in order to keep moving.

    Like oil


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,717 ✭✭✭Raging_Ninja


    GarethQ wrote: »
    Like oil

    Fighting in Libya hampers the production and transport of fossil fuels to the west, which hurts our economies. Political stability there is in the west's best interests.

    Now you can go on some wild conspiracy theory rant about how its all about oil. But at the end of the day, military intervention would not have been necessary had Gadaffi done the decent thing and step aside. Instead he did what most dictators will do and tried to suppress violently the (allegedly) pro-democracy rebels. Hopefully with this UN intervention, the fighting will end soon.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    Known French warplanes involved today :

    4 x Rafales ( 2 with RECCE pods )
    2 x M2000-5
    2 x M2000D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    BrianD wrote: »
    Yes the French have started their product demonstrations for future weapon sales to Libya. .
    Terrible cynicism but probably true :) There are lots of reports tonight that there are human shields at several potential targets e.g Bab el Azizia, Sebha so that will complicate targeting with such a big and unwieldy coalition of countries.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    US navy has three submarines in Mediterranean preparing for operations against Libya- us defense official to Reuters

    Obama to make a statement within the hour. Wouldnt be surprised if that is timed to coincide with the start of the cruise missile attack.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    hmmm wrote: »
    Terrible cynicism but probably true :) There are lots of reports tonight that there are human shields at several potential targets e.g Bab el Azizia, Sebha so that will complicate targeting with such a big and unwieldy coalition of countries.

    The French have been tripping over themselves to get into Libya and make money. Reports had them down for 4.5 billion of arms sales along with civilian contracts. It was reported that they were going to be the first foreign user of the Rafale fighter (the irony). Plus the French were going to modernise their existing aircraft inventory.

    Amazingly Sarkhozy managed to back the right horse this time. Important when you trying to be re-elected.
    Just because you don't like people doesn't mean you can ignore them. Like it or not, Libya has extensive valuable resources that the western world needs access to in order to keep moving.

    So it's nowth to do with democracy or human rights?


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