Cameron's Plan For No-Fly Zone Over Libya

BrianD

Steyr wrote: »

VIA BBC Live News: 2138: France's military denies earlier reports from Libyan state TV that a French aircraft had been shot down in the Njela district of Tripoli.

Funny. They were discussing how the Libyan statements would go. Firstly, they would claim civilian targets hit with casualties and then there would be claims of attacking aircraft being shot down.

RandomnoobIII

Steyr

RAF callsign VE02 ( RAF Tornado GR.4 ) Airborne FL210, EXXON 06 just airborne out of RAF Mildenhall, KC-135R tail nr 57-1493 heading Southbound,

Now entering Maltese Air Space 6x F-15E Strike Eagles from RAF Lakenheath, callsign BOLAR with EXXON 01 and EXXON 02 KC-135R's for "OperationOdysseyDawn".

Steyr

Also just now entering Maltese airspace KC-135R's EXXON 03 and 04, and USAF Electronic Warfare EC-130H Compass Call tail nr 73-1587 as SHEEN 53 overhead Mediterranean.

SHEEN53:

Steyr

It is all kicking off tonight now an RAF Sentinel R1 tail nr ZJ693 as SNAPSHOT 01 overhead Mediterranean now and RAF Nimrod R1 tail nr XV249 as ASCOT 7216 overhead calling ELINT OPS.

maquiladora

Thread could do with an updated title maybe?

Anyway, 4 x Typhoon have landed at Trapani :



Earlier...

#Libya 19 US planes, inc 3 B2 stealth bombers, took part in dawn raid Sunday spokesman for US Africa Command told AFP.

But...

Pro-Gadhafi forces enter center of rebel-held city of Misrata with tanks, troops - residents via Reuters

punchdrunk

http://www.africom.mil/getArticle.asp?art=6227&lang=0

Is this the EA-18G's Baptism of fire?
I can't recall it being used in combat before?

BlaasForRafa

BrianD wrote: »

Funny. They were discussing how the Libyan statements would go. Firstly, they would claim civilian targets hit with casualties and then there would be claims of attacking aircraft being shot down.

One of the first things they claimed was a childrens hospital being hit, its like they're reading from the "Big Book o What Dictators Claim When Being Attacked by the UN"

ReacherCreature

maquiladora wrote: »

Earlier...

#Libya 19 US planes, inc 3 B2 stealth bombers, took part in dawn raid Sunday spokesman for US Africa Command told AFP.

B2(s) bombed an airfield. Dropped forty bombs according to one source.

Four Spanish F18s arrived in Italy yesterday. Belgium sending six F16s and Italy lending four Tornadoes.

Article of note: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5geTeL6F17NEDZpIt71hw5efw76Ng?docId=CNG.58e763c4f9e27c86cf73881d881278bb.d51

maquiladora

According to some radio monitoring folks there are more B-2s en route to Libya now.

Some other monitoring guy in Italy managed to record a US EC-130J on a psy-ops mission broadcasting a warning to the Libyan navy :

http://www.numbersoddities.nl/spy-ops-libya.mp3

Later the broadcast by hit by jamming

http://www.numbersoddities.nl/spy-ops-jammed.mp3

Steyr

punchdrunk wrote: »

http://www.africom.mil/getArticle.asp?art=6227&lang=0

Is this the EA-18G's Baptism of fire?
I can't recall it being used in combat before?

Pretty much the Growler is all new.

Steyr

8 Hours ago:USAF C-17A Globemaster III tail nr 09-9206 arrived as REACH 312 presumed carrying munitions for Aircraft.

Right after her :USAF C-17A Globemaster III tail nr 06-6166 arrived as REACH 535 arrived in theatre.

French Air Force Ops: French Air Force active CYRANO calling VEILLEUR on HF 6712.0 kHz, in Mediterranean AWACS E-3F 202/36-CB as FAF9008.


6 hours ago: FURY 23 flight, USAF Whiteman AFB B-2A bombers currently Oceanic near Canada heading CONUS returning from mission.

4 French Air Force C-135FR overhead Mediterranean FAF4074 tail 475, FAF4051 tail 474, FAF4053 tail 525, FAF4055 tail 472.

Danish Air Force DAF1607 [CL-604 Challenger] with DAF3261 fighter formation wkg @Eurocontrol 397.050 MHz heading Southbound.

2 hours ago: French Air Force C-160G tail nr F216 Escadrille Electronique 1/54 active as FAF 6780 over Mediterranean.

PSYOPS is running! USAF EC-130J tail nr 00-1934 callsign STEEL 74 transmitting messages to #Libya on HF freq.

1 hour ago: RAF tanker VC-10 tail nr XV102 as ASCOT 9204 overhead French airspace with 5 Coningby Typhoons RAFAIR 9611-9615.

Belgian F16 fighters on exercise deployed at Araxos Greece will recycle their status and heading Souda Air Base Greece tomorrow.

10 minutes ago: Overhead southern French airspace 5 Coningby Typhoons ASCOT 9616-9620.

RAF tanker VC-10 tail nr XV105 as ASCOT 9205 returning UK from French airspace, refueled 5 Coningby Typhoons ASCOT 9616-9620.

Corsendonk

maquiladora wrote: »

Thread could do with an updated title maybe?

How about "Sarkozy Plan on how not to be made a fool", the french press earlier in the week had attacked him for supporting the rebel government, they thought he had supported the losing side as the government forces pushed them back.

Unless Libya military has improved it seems a battle between too inept Libyan forces with the government forces in the lead due to equipment. The rebels must have shot more ammo in celebraton in the air than at the enemy or in friendly fire incidents.

Steyr

8 Minutes ago: USAF callsign SNAKE 13, formation of 2 F-16C Spangdahlem Germany based, heading LICZ NAS Sigonella wkg 123.625 MHz Malta ACC.


For the moment the Italian Air Force is contributing to OP odysseydawn with 4Tornado ECRs & 4 fighters ( Possibly F-16 ) Defence Minister affirmed today.

Steyr

NOW: USAF EC-130J tail nr 00-1934 callsign: STEEL 74 transmitting in to Libyan region on 6877.0 kHz.

hmmm

Here's some videos that might be of interest.

Rejoicing in Benghazi - lol at the guy with the RPG at about 1.45
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2HLKemsOP4&feature=player_embedded

A very poor video of the attack itself..
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=119162154826011&oid=179449562095105&comments

Video taken along the Benghazi Ajdabia road showing the aftermath of the air attack
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=119145478161012&oid=179449562095105&comments

Footage from Misurata (WARNING - GRAPHIC)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkglDH-pcOE

hmmm

hmmm wrote: »

The idiot on Sky News has decided to broadcast from Gadaffi's compound where he will be giving a live press conference.

What did I say

"SkyNewsBreak

Sky Sources: Tornado airstrike on Gaddafi's compound called off due to presence of civilians including journalists from CNN and Reuters. "

GarethQ

Almost like the communists from CNN are helping Gadaffi... I think the place should be bombed, and the reporters known as "Collateral Damage" please remember... **** happens.

Manic Moran

Apparently the Rebel MiG-23 photographed coming down over Benghazi impacted in a parking lot, right on an Al Jazeera company car.

NTM

BrianD

hmmm wrote: »

What did I say

"SkyNewsBreak

Sky Sources: Tornado airstrike on Gaddafi's compound called off due to presence of civilians including journalists from CNN and Reuters. "

The Brits knew well in advance that Gadaffy's compound is full of civilians and reporters. Sky have been reporting from there all week.

Classic case of the MoD needing to adapt to the modern battlefield!

garethq wrote:

Almost like the communists from CNN are helping Gadaffi... I think the place should be bombed, and the reporters known as "Collateral Damage" please remember... **** happens.

Gareth that would be a war crime.

hmmm

BrianD wrote: »

The Brits knew well in advance that Gadaffy's compound is full of civilians and reporters. Sky have been reporting from there all week.

Classic case of the MoD needing to adapt to the modern battlefield!

I don't know, I think those journalists were crazy. Bab El is not a single building, it's an enormous military camp in the centre of Tripoli. It's going to have command centres (I think Khamis is based there) - for journalists to decided to broadcast live from the vicinity of what is obviously a potential target is enormously stupid.

I think journalists have gotten a bit lackadaisical because of the accuracy of previous air campaigns. A stray cruise missile taking out a Western TV crew is not unlikely if they carry on like this.

Steyr

VAQ-132 Growlers now on the ground at Aviano AFB.

Global Hawk also in use, CALLSIGN:Fortee enroute to Sigonella now.

Royal Norwegian Air Force F-16's now based at Decimomannu will not take part in Operation odysseydawn until the "command issue" for the Operation is solved, the Norwegian MoD has said.

Italian MoD has also confirmed it will add 2 more Aircraft to its 8 already committed for the Operation.

Manic Moran

BrianD wrote: »

Gareth that would be a war crime.

No, it wouldn't.

The question is if the objective was militarily a viable target, and if the steps taken to destroy that objective were the minimum required to obtain that goal with a reasonable correlation of benefit to cost when knowing that civilians were in the area.

The presence of reporters is not a factor in itself.

NTM

hmmm

A farmer in Benghazi has woken up to find an F15E in his field.

mike65

#
0955: Journalist Rob Crilly from The Telegraph currently in Libya tweets: "just found a crashed US warplane in a field. believe a mechanical failure brought it down #libya" a tweet a few minutes later added: crew believed safe #libya

I didn't know the US were flying over Libya.

BrianD

Manic Moran wrote: »

No, it wouldn't.

The question is if the objective was militarily a viable target, and if the steps taken to destroy that objective were the minimum required to obtain that goal with a reasonable correlation of benefit to cost when knowing that civilians were in the area.

The presence of reporters is not a factor in itself.

NTM

In a "standard war" he would be a target. With this UN resolution he can't be considered a target. It is a humanitarian resolution not a free pass for the military.

Apart from the grumblings of the top brass (who should shut up and do what they are told) both Obama and Cameron have stated that Gaddaffy is not a specific target.

The imposition of the no-fly zone does not specify the removal of any individual. Therefore, the deliberate targeting of any named individual would be at odds with this and is certainly not covered by all "means necessary".

Of course the presence of reporters is a factor. The rules have changed. If the revolution wasn't televised there would probably be no UN resolution and no military action.

OS119

BrianD wrote: »

In a "standard war" he would be a target. With this UN resolution he can't be considered a target. It is a humanitarian resolution not a free pass for the military.

Apart from the grumblings of the top brass (who should shut up and do what they are told) both Obama and Cameron have stated that Gaddaffy is not a specific target.

The imposition of the no-fly zone does not specify the removal of any individual. Therefore, the deliberate targeting of any named individual would be at odds with this and is certainly not covered by all "means necessary".

Of course the presence of reporters is a factor. The rules have changed. If the revolution wasn't televised there would probably be no UN resolution and no military action.

sorry, you are incorrect - the resolution allows all manner of 'side issues' that are not, by themselves, potentially threatening to the civilian population to be attacked. my understanding is that no civilian has ever been harmed by an SA-6 or Ground Based Air Search Radar yet they are burning all over Libya. Gaddafi is on the target list because a) he - due to the nature of his regime - is a pivotal point in the purely military chain of command, and b) he is inciting the threat to civilian life. without the incitement, the problem decreases. much in the same way as Gaddafi's logistic chain is on the target list as without ammunition his 'soldiers' are useless, without his encitement the soldiers are harmless (ish).

no one has a problem with 'all neccessary measures' covering ammunition resupply, so why with 'incitement supply'?

you'll also notice the resolution does not say 'all neccessary measures to protect civilians and civilian areas from direct threat', it says 'all neccessary measures to protect civilians and civilian areas from threat'. it is left entirely to those undertaking the action to determine the nature, immediacy and severity of the threat they will protect civilians and civilian areas from, and to determine the best way, in their view, of reducing that threat.

some - the Arab League for instance, may take one view, others may take another. both are covered by the resolution.

BrianD

OS119 wrote: »

sorry, you are incorrect - the resolution allows all manner of 'side issues' that are not, by themselves, potentially threatening to the civilian population to be attacked. my understanding is that no civilian has ever been harmed by an SA-6 or Ground Based Air Search Radar yet they are burning all over Libya. Gaddafi is on the target list because a) he - due to the nature of his regime - is a pivotal point in the purely military chain of command, and b) he is inciting the threat to civilian life. without the incitement, the problem decreases. much in the same way as Gaddafi's logistic chain is on the target list as without ammunition his 'soldiers' are useless, without his encitement the soldiers are harmless (ish).

Sorry, I'm right! Read the resolution! It's a humanitarian one with no mandate for regime change. Not only that, no matter how much they would like it otherwise, both the US and British Governments have stated that he is not a target.

Also it was quite clear from the onset that to enforce the no-fly zone that Libyan air defence systems would be neutralised. So no surprises there.

no one has a problem with 'all neccessary measures' covering ammunition resupply, so why with 'incitement supply'?

I would have thought that was pretty straightforward!!

you'll also notice the resolution does not say 'all neccessary measures to protect civilians and civilian areas from direct threat', it says 'all neccessary measures to protect civilians and civilian areas from threat'. it is left entirely to those undertaking the action to determine the nature, immediacy and severity of the threat they will protect civilians and civilian areas from, and to determine the best way, in their view, of reducing that threat.

What is your point here? I don't see the difference with you inserting the word direct. It is not down to the military commanders to take these decisions. They are political decisions. The military may like to think that they have a free range.

BrianD

One thing I have noticed is a lack of military commanders briefing the press with videos of military positions being taken out with position, bombs dropping down man holes and so on.

Is this a new approach or have I just missed them?

(Perhaps they've got shy after the Crazyhorse 18 debacle)

hmmm

BrianD wrote: »

One thing I have noticed is a lack of military commanders briefing the press with videos of military positions being taken out with position, bombs dropping down man holes and so on.

Is this a new approach or have I just missed them?

I think for once it suits the US to minimise their role as much as possible. Contrast that with live pictures of Quatari jets landing in Crete, and similarly I expect when they are over Libya there'll probably be an Al Jazeera reporter broadcasting from the wing.