Cameron's Plan For No-Fly Zone Over Libya

Steyr

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Libya-David-Cameron-Plans-No-Fly-Zone-Over-Libya-As-Pressure-Mounts-On-Colonel-Muammar-Gaddafi/Article/201102415942145?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_2&lid=ARTICLE_15942145_Libya%3A_David_Cameron_Plans_No-Fly_Zone_Over_Libya_As_Pressure_Mounts_On_Colonel_Muammar_Gaddafi



Breaking News, 6:02pm UK, Monday February 28, 2011


Cameron's Plan For No-Fly Zone Over Libya


Alison Chung and Adam Tate, Sky News Online

Prime Minister David Cameron has said he is working on plans for a no-fly zone over Libya as pressure mounts on Colonel Muammar Gaddafi to quit.

In a statement to the House of Commons, Mr Cameron also said he has not ruled out the use of military action.

He said: "We will not rule out military assets. We will not tolerate this regime using military force against its own people. This is an illegitimate regime which has lost the support of its people.

"To that end, I have asked the Ministry of Defence to look into the no-fly zone.

"Our message to Colonel Gaddafi is simple: go now."

Sources to the UN also indicated that the UK mission to the UN would begin discussions with other member states about the feasibilty of a further Security Council resolution on a no-fly zone.

Earlier, around 50 British nationals on board the HMS Cumberland, which left the second city of Benghazi with 200 evacuees, arrived in the Maltese city of Valletta.

Sky correspondent Amanda Walker, in Valletta, said: "Malta has been an evacuation house and continues to be so.

"There were around 200 people of mixed nationalities on board the HMS Cumberland, and about 50 of those were British.

"After leaving the vessel, they will head to a hotel and fly back to the UK or whatever countries they come from."

Later today, a further British military aircraft will arrive in the capital Tripoli to fly out more British nationals.

Mr Cameron said around 600 British nationals who have wanted to leave Libya have now departed.

He said the evacuations have centred on three locations - Tripoli airport, the port at Benghazi and the desert oil fields.

"At Tripoli airport, a series of six aircraft organised by the Foreign Office and an RAF C130 Hercules flight have brought out more than 380 British nationals and a similar number of foreign citizens," he said.

"At Benghazi, HMS Cumberland has carried out two evacuations from the port, taking out 119 British nationals and 303 foreign citizens.

"The first of these evacuations took place in very difficult sea conditions. The second arrived in Malta earlier today."

Foreign Secretary William Hague warned Col Gaddafi to expect international intervention for violating human rights.

Speaking at the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva, he said: "It is a moment of great opportunity in the Middle East. If change and development can be achieved peacefully, it will be the greatest advance in world affairs since Central and Eastern Europe changed so dramatically 20 years ago and many of their countries entered the European Union.

"If instead violence takes hold, the risks for human rights and international security will be grave."

He added: "Respect for human rights rests on foundations that have to be built over time: strong institutions, responsible and accountable government, a free press, the rule of law, and equal rights for men and women.

"The UK stands ready to lend its support and expertise to those countries looking to develop in this way."



Wrong time to get rid of HMS Ark Royal...

Fratton Fred

Could a no fly zone be enforced from RAF Akrotiri it is that too far away?

Geography was never my strong point.

Steyr

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Could a no fly zone be enforced from RAF Akrotiri it is that too far away?

Geography was never my strong point.

Possibly but America is moving Military assets into the area too.

punchdrunk

I see Cameron wants to play with the big boys on the political stage
I wonder what he's planning to enforce it with?? Kites??

Manic Moran

Steyr wrote: »

Possibly but America is moving Military assets into the area too.

Are we?

In an example of sheer bizarreness, the only American carrier in the area (Enterprise) was order out of the Med about a week and a half ago. Did they tell it to make a U-Turn?

NTM

Victor

Realistically, you're talking about E-3s with fighters with half loads, drop tanks and tankers operating out of Sicily and Crete. NATO Base Sigonella would make sense

Given that Malta has links to Libya, I'm not sure it will want to play piggy in the middle for an armed intervention.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=libya+to+cyprus&aq=&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=19.86735,36.826172&ie=UTF8&ll=33.063924,23.466797&spn=20.851419,70.3125&z=4

Donny5

Manic Moran wrote: »

Are we?

Reuters say so, but there's no details.

OS119

Victor wrote: »

Realistically, you're talking about E-3s with fighters with half loads, drop tanks and tankers operating out of Sicily and Crete. NATO Base Sigonella would make sense

Given that Malta has links to Libya, I'm not sure it will want to play piggy in the middle for an armed intervention.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=libya+to+cyprus&aq=&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=19.86735,36.826172&ie=UTF8&ll=33.063924,23.466797&spn=20.851419,70.3125&z=4

i get that impression too - Malta seems fine for the more humanitarian end of this op, but given their ties to our friend i'm not sure they'd be overly keen or that we'd trust them! Cyprus has been mentioned, some NATO units are already operating out of Crete, but Sigonella is going the be the best option distance wise...

politically Cameron is going to take public heat for not having a carrier (as well he should), but actually the Harriers wouldn't be high on the wish-list for an air policing Op - fantastic for A2G, but not ideal for A2A - and why shoehorn an A2G asset into an A2A role when you've got assets like Typhoon, Mirage 2000, Rafale etc. on hand?

Steyr

Over on WAP:

Quote "ASCOT1960" February 27, 2011

'SOLEX 01/02' both flew missions today in a tactical orbit area in the Med Sea from RAF Akrotiri.
AWACS 'SOLEX 03' left RAF Waddington this afternoon and is now on station in the Med Sea.
It seems all three are providing 24hr AWACS control of the whole area. Assume for more rescues (still 300 left in the desert in different areas from the 150 yesterday).

looks like the British have a large force out there now. ( At lest one VC-10 (tanker) Chinooks x 2, Hercules x 3 ?, BAe146, three AWACS plus two warships).

___________________________________________________________


Mildenhall based MC-130P Shadows routing through Italy southbound today. The Another one has turned up near Malta now, callsign ‘FEVER 11’ from the 1 RQS. So that's three MC-130P's in the area now this afternoon.
UK now confirms they are working towards a no-fly zone across Libya. So if this goes ahead the three AWACS will probably stay down at Cyprus for quite some time... or rotate with NATO and US examples.

US commanders could turn to the USS Enterprise, currently in the Red Sea, as well as the amphibious ship the USS Kearsarge, which has a fleet of helicopters and about 2,000 Marines aboard, the Associated Press reported.
__________________

M three

why dont the brits and americans just sod off and let the libyans thmselves overthrow the guy and reform the system.

Again more meddling by the brits and americans where they are not wanted.

BlaasForRafa

M three wrote: »

why dont the brits and americans just sod off and let the libyans thmselves overthrow the guy and reform the system.

Again more meddling by the brits and americans where they are not wanted.

ah give the "anti-imperialist" rhetoric a rest willya.

Given the fact that there were reports of Libyan air force jets bombing anti-Gadaffi forces yesterday, I'd say they'd be greatful if someone blasted Gadaffi's stooges out of the sky, control of the air is important in any battle.

Tabnabs

Manic Moran wrote: »

Are we?

In an example of sheer bizarreness, the only American carrier in the area (Enterprise) was order out of the Med about a week and a half ago. Did they tell it to make a U-Turn?

NTM

Too many fingers in too many pies...

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/us-military-counter-libya-preparation-update-uss-enterprise-now-back-mediterranean

Fratton Fred

M three wrote: »

why dont the brits and americans just sod off and let the libyans thmselves overthrow the guy and reform the system.

Again more meddling by the brits and americans where they are not wanted.

Because if that happens, Gadaffi will hang on a bit longer, which will either lead to a huge humanitarian crisis or civil war.

A no fly zone allows for a more even playing field and therefore more chance for a swift end.

OS119

M three wrote: »

why dont the brits and americans just sod off and let the libyans thmselves overthrow the guy and reform the system.

Again more meddling by the brits and americans where they are not wanted.

according to most of the Libyans that western media have spoken to - both in Libya and outside - they do want a No Fly Zone, and a good proportion of them would like other assistance such as weapons deliveries and intelligence support.

nobody is seriously talking about either NATO airstrikes on Gaddafi or his support, or of any large scale land force in Libya.

again those meddling Irish telling other people what they can and can't do with their own country...

Stev_o

This could back fire in a lot of ways depending on how the UN approaches this. Considering the amount of defectors at present i wouldn't surprised for a defoctor jet to be shot down and uproar amongst the protesters. Sky News talking to reps from the MOD saying that strikes against AA, AAA and Radar Stations is being considered is just bizarre.

If they do go ahead with it i wouldn't be surprised that some protesters are accidentally killed through some mistake and that's the last thing the world needs.

I say this is more of a show of support to the protesters and a cry of "Please don't hate us" when they come into power.

maquiladora

CENTCOM Commander basically saying Libyan air def assests would need to be hit in order to have a no fly zone...

(Reuters) - Establishing a no-fly zone in Libya would be a 'challenging' military operation, a senior U.S. military official said on Tuesday.

"My military opinion is that it would be challenging," General James Mattis, commander of U.S. Central Command, told a Senate hearing. "You would have to remove air defense capabilty in order to establish a no-fly zone, so no illusions here. It would be a military operations -- it wouldn't be just telling people not to fly airplanes."

Manic Moran

I believe there are still a fair few potential hostages in Tripoli airport and otherwise about the country, no? Something else the world needs to consider before going around declaring no-fly-zones.

NTM

OS119

Manic Moran wrote: »

I believe there are still a fair few potential hostages in Tripoli airport and otherwise about the country, no? Something else the world needs to consider before going around declaring no-fly-zones.

NTM

i think the reason for the talk of NFZ's is to influence some of the players with Ghaddafi's regime rather than the actual practicality of stopping LAF flights.

persuade his allies that this is only going to end in one result and allow them to make their own, logical decision about where their best interests lie. Ghaddafi is only in charge because various power blocks within Libya say he his - when they stop saying he is, then he won't be, and this will be over. ish...

Tabnabs

“I have directed several Navy ships to the Mediterranean,” Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Tuesday. “The USS Kearsarge and the USS Ponce will be entering the Mediterranean shortly, and will provide for us a capacity for both emergency evacuations and also for humanitarian relief.”

Gates also said 400 Marines are being sent to the region to replace Marines from the amphibious assault ship USS Kearsarge who had deployed in Afghanistan.

source

A nice little fleet building up. HMCS Charlottetown is also being sent to work alongside the USS Enterprise.

BrianD

The problem is that Gadaffy is the "legitmate" ruler of Libya. His government and rule is recognaised by the diplomatic relations that both the US, UN and Brits afforded him.

So, his people don't like him. Nothing new there. Britain and America have supported unjust and undemocratic regimes for years. Is the ruler of the country not allowed to take action against rebels?

It's all about optics and nobody seems clear on what's going on in Libya other than it appears chaotic. At the same time one could have portrayed the student protests in the UK as mass popular unrest. The bottom line is the west never liked Gadaffy and now it's come uppance time.

However, it does set a dangerous precedent. It would be much better if the West showed it's hand and be honest at forcing regime change. No loss to get rid of this guy anyway.

Interesting, I was flicking though Old Moores Almanac the other day. It had predicted the unrest in the Arab world but the timing was not exact. The other thing that was suggested was that the same thing would happen in the USA where States would leave the union. I don't see it happening but nobody saw this or the IMF!

Steyr

From the Dutch Twitter FMC http://twitter.com/FMCNL : NATO AWACS E-3A call sign NATO 03 tail nr LX-N90451 in Mediterenean area about 3 hours ago.

maquiladora

UK press this morning reporting that 600 troops of the Black Watch are on 24 hour standby to head to Libya for "humanitarian" reasons and that 1/3 of this number is already at a forward base near RAF Lyneham. British officials are due to fly to Benghazi to meet the rebel leadership etc. in advance.

Meanwhile, the USS Kearsarge and the USS Ponce have departed from Crete today after stopping there yesterday to pick up 400 Marines from the 2nd MEU that flew in to Greece from North Carolina a few days ago.

OS119

maquiladora wrote: »

UK press this morning reporting that 600 troops of the Black Watch are on 24 hour standby to head to Libya for "humanitarian" reasons and that 1/3 of this number is already at a forward base near RAF Lyneham. British officials are due to fly to Benghazi to meet the rebel leadership etc. in advance.

Meanwhile, the USS Kearsarge and the USS Ponce have departed from Crete today after stopping there yesterday to pick up 400 Marines from the 2nd MEU that flew in to Greece from North Carolina a few days ago.

there's an element of sabre rattling about the UK statements - yes the Black Watch (3SCOTS) are on 24hrs notice to move to move to Libya, but being the Spearhead Bn they're on 24hrs notice to move anywhere - thats what being the Spearhead Bn means. they could be anywhere in 24hrs: Falklands, Bosnia, Afghanistan, Cyprus etc...

USS Ponce? really?

Steyr

OS119 wrote: »

USS Ponce? really?

Absolutely.

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/03/04/3450232/us-warships-arrive-at-crete-in.html



ATHENS, Greece -- Two vessels carrying 1,300 U.S. Marines docked Friday at an American base on Crete as part of a military build up around Libya, the U.S. Navy said.

Souda Bay navy base spokesman Paul Farley said the amphibious assault ship USS Kearsarge and the USS Ponce arrived at the base, carrying a total of around 4,000 personnel, including the Marines.

The ships docked in Crete two days after 400 Marines, from the 2nd Marine Expeditionary Unit, based at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, also arrived in Crete.

The U.S. has said it wants embattled Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi to step down and has not ruled out imposing a no-fly zone over Libya.

Late Friday, about 100 supporters of Greece's Communist Party rallied in the Cretan city of Hania, near the base, against the arrival of the U.S. forces.

seanmacc

Was Lybia not supposed to of gotten delivery of the Russian S-300 anti-aircraft misslie system? If they did wouldn't that make Lybia a no fly zone for NATO forces?

maquiladora

seanmacc wrote: »

Was Lybia not supposed to of gotten delivery of the Russian S-300 anti-aircraft misslie system? If they did wouldn't that make Lybia a no fly zone for NATO forces?

According to GlobalSecurity they haven nothing more advanced than the SA-8.

Nevertheless, Robert Gates said that in his opinion any no fly zone would first begin with an attack on Libya, to damage their AA sites.

Its hard to imagine Gaddafi not reacting to Western air strikes against his SAM sites, radars etc.

You'd surely expect him to fire off some Scuds at some target within range (like he did after the 86 bombings) or try and hit a naval vessel in the Med?

Meanwhile looks like the French & Brits are spearheading call for the no fly zone at the UN and EU next week :

BORDEAUX (AFP)--French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe said Saturday his country was working with the U.K. to get a United Nations Security Council resolution to impose a no-fly zone in Libya.

"We are working in New York with the British to get a UN Security Council resolution creating an air exclusion zone to avoid bombings," he said in Bordeaux.

On Thursday, Juppe and U.K. Foreign Secretary William Hague said they were preparing measures to propose to the European Union summit on Libya set for next Friday, specifically mentioning a possible no-fly zone.

http://www.zawya.com/story.cfm/sidZW20110305000111

Surely Russians and/or Chinese wouldn't agree to that UN resolution.

Stev_o

This could turn into a giant mess if this isn't approached right. It won't be long before a "UN" force steps in but really if it is headed by the US and UK forces could have a very bitter taste around North Africa.

What other major nations are building a presence there? French, Italians Germans?

If the Ghaffi forces manage to regain some level of control back from rebel hands how long before they start retaliating against other nations for supporting the uprising? This isn't going to end with a "Ah sure let bygones be bygones" this is heading towards a bloody war.

Steyr

Sky News on TV Saying the Sunday Times says its an SAS Unit. Nothing on Sky's website yet though.

":: The Sunday Times is reporting that an SAS team of up to eight soldiers and a junior UK diplomat have been apprehended by rebel Libyan forces.

"



http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/05/rebels-capture-oil-port-pro-qaddafi-forces-defending-opposition-held-city/

British Soldiers Reportedly Captured by Libyan Rebels During Secret Mission

Published March 05, 2011

Up to eight British soldiers are being held by rebel forces in Libya after a secret mission to put British diplomats in touch with opponents of Libyan leader Muammar al-Qaddafi, according to the London Times.

The soldiers were captured Saturday as they escorted a junior diplomat through rebel-held territory in eastern Libya, according to the paper.

This comes after Qaddafi loyalists swept into the opposition-held city closest to Tripoli, tightening security around the regime-held capital. To the east, rebel forces captured a key oil port as the country veered toward civil war.

Rebels said government forces had moved in to Zawiya, west of the capital, with tanks and dozens of people had been injured, but they vowed to keep up the fight. One rebel said the hospital was under control of pro-Qaddafi forces so the injured were being taken to a makeshift clinic set up in a mosque or to private homes for treatment.

"The number of people killed is so big. The number of the wounded is so big. The number of tanks that entered the city is big," he said, although he couldn't provide a specific casualty toll.

Opposition forces in the east, meanwhile, advanced west in a push toward Qaddafi's hometown of Sirte, a day after the port city of Ras Lanouf fell to the rebellion.

The contrasting fortunes of the two warring sides suggest that the conflict in Libya could last for weeks and maybe months, with neither side mustering enough military power to decisively defeat the other. The government is fighting fiercely to maintain its hold in Tripoli and surrounding areas and the rebels are pushing their front westward from their eastern stronghold.

Qaddafi, who has led the country virtually unchecked for four decades, has unleashed a violent crackdown against those seeking his ouster, drawing international condemnation and sanctions.

Hundreds have been killed, perhaps more, putting pressure on the international community to do more to stop the crackdown on protests that began on Feb. 15, inspired by successful uprisings in Egypt and Tunisia, its neighbors to the east and west respectively.

President Barack Obama has insisted that Qaddafi must leave and said his administration was considering a full range of options, including the imposition of a "no-fly" zone over Libya.

So far, Qaddafi has had little success in taking back territory, with the entire eastern half of the country and some cities near the capital under rebel control. But the opposition forces have had limited success in marching on pro-Qaddafi areas, leading to a standoff that could last for weeks and maybe months, with neither side mustering enough military power to decisively defeat the other.

Saturday's assault on Zawiya, a city of some 200,000 people just 30 miles west of Tripoli, began with a surprise dawn attack by pro-Qaddafi forces firing mortar shells and machine guns.

Witnesses who spoke to The Associated Press by telephone with the rattle of gunfire and explosions in the background said the shelling damaged government buildings and homes. The fighting sparked several fires, sending a cloud of heavy black smoke over the city, and witnesses said snipers were shooting at anybody on the streets, including residents who ventured onto balconies.

Initially, the rebels retreated to positions deeper in the city before they launched a counteroffensive in which they regained some of the lost territory, according to three residents and activists, who spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisals.

By midafternoon, the rebels had reoccupied central Martyrs' Square while the pro-regime forces regrouped on the city's fringes, sealing off the city's entry and exit routes, the witnesses said.

"We will fight them on the streets and will never give up so long as Qaddafi is still in power," said one of the rebels, who also declined to be identified for the same reason.

Pro-Qaddafi forces on foot and firing artillery, mortars and other heavy weapons launched a new attack on Zawiya in late afternoon from the south and west, two other witnesses said by telephone.

The government claimed that "99 percent" of Zawiya was under its control.

"The situation in Zawiya is quiet and peaceful right now," deputy Foreign Minister Khaled Qaid told reporters Saturday in Tripoli. "We hope by tomorrow morning life will be back to normal."

The anti-Qaddafi rebels fared better elsewhere, capturing the key oil port of Ras Lanouf on Friday night, their first military victory in a potentially long and arduous march from the east of the country to Tripoli.

Witnesses said Ras Lanouf, about 90 miles east of Sirte, fell to rebel hands on Friday night after a fierce battle with pro-regime forces who later fled.

An Associated Press reporter who arrived in Ras Lanouf Saturday morning saw Libya's red, black and green pre-Qaddafi monarchy flag, which has been adopted by the rebels, hoisted over the town's oil facilities.

One of the rebels, Ahmed al-Zawi, said the battle was won after Ras Lanouf residents joined the rebels.

Al-Zawi, who participated in the fighting, said 12 rebels were killed in the fighting, in which rocket-propelled grenades and anti-aircraft guns were used.

Officials at a hospital in the nearby city of Ajdabiya, however, said only five rebels were killed and 31 wounded in the attack. The discrepancy in the figures could not immediately be explained.

"They just follow orders. After a little bit of fighting, they run away," said another rebel at Ras Lanouf, Borawi Saleh, an 11-year veteran of the army who is now an oil company employee.

A witness in Ajdabiya said rebels had begun their march toward Sirte, advancing 50 miles to the town of Nawfaliyah. The witness said he was going to join them and expected fierce fighting with pro-Qaddafi forces trying to stop them from going farther.

Also Saturday, a Libyan jet fighter has crashed near Ras Lanouf, witnesses said, displaying pictures showing the pilot's body and twisted wreckage from the plane. The cause of Saturday's crash couldn't immediately be determined.

Pro-Qaddafi forces have launched a number of airstrikes against rebel targets as they seek to put down the 19-day-old rebellion.

Farther east, a large arms and ammunition depot outside Benghazi, Libya's second-largest city, blew up Friday in a massive explosion that completely destroyed an area three times the size of a soccer field.

Ambulance drivers told AP Television News that at least 26 people had been killed in the blast, which flattened entire buildings, cars and trees. It also deprived the rebels of arms and ammunition needed to fight their way westward toward Sirte on the Mediterranean coast.

It was not immediately clear how the depot blew up, but suspicion immediately fell on Qaddafi agents.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

maquiladora

Steyr wrote: »

Sky News on TV Saying the Sunday Times says its an SAS Unit. Nothing on Sky's website yet though.

":: The Sunday Times is reporting that an SAS team of up to eight soldiers and a junior UK diplomat have been apprehended by rebel Libyan forces.

Not too surprising when you consider the rebels are fighting mercs flown into Libya by Gadaffi. They are going to be feeling pretty paranoid and when 8 armed non-Libyans show up unannoucned, they are obviously going to detain them until they know for sure who these guys really are.

Heard these Brits will be released within 24 hours now. Anyway, looks like the mission to "make contact" with the rebels worked in a way. :P

BrianD

maquiladora wrote: »

Not too surprising when you consider the rebels are fighting mercs flown into Libya by Gadaffi. They are going to be feeling pretty paranoid and when 8 armed non-Libyans show up unannoucned, they are obviously going to detain them until they know for sure who these guys really are.

Heard these Brits will be released within 24 hours now. Anyway, looks like the mission to "make contact" with the rebels worked in a way. :P

"mercs" - should you not be upgrading your terminology to the 21st Century? The term you need is "security contractor". There are plenty of them working in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Manic Moran

It had predicted the unrest in the Arab world but the timing was not exact. The other thing that was suggested was that the same thing would happen in the USA where States would leave the union

He's a few years behind the times, unless he was writing that before 1861.

NTM

BrianD

Manic Moran wrote: »

He's a few years behind the times, unless he was writing that before 1861.

NTM

What makes you certain it wouldn't happen again.

Gun toting disgruntled Republicans. Record numbers of people living below the poverty lines. The ingredients are there. Never really considered it a possibility myself but times are changing.

Steyr

10minutes ago via Twitter:

USAF 7th Special Operations Squadron arr Luqa Malta as RCH1018, a Mildenhall based USAFE MC-130H tail nr 87-0023

seanmacc

Steyr wrote: »

10minutes ago via Twitter:

USAF 7th Special Operations Squadron arr Luqa Malta as RCH1018, a Mildenhall based USAFE MC-130H tail nr 87-0023

We'll be seeing a huge build up over the next few days. I'd imagine the next step will be supply drops to the rebels if that's not started already.

savagecabbages

Watching Euronews lastnight only half paying attention, but there seems to be talk an alternative way to enforce the no-fly zone with the rebels being armed with anti-aircraft weapons to enforce the no-fly zone themselves. Surely this is madness!

Did anyone hear anything more about this, or come across any sources??
Is it just David Cameron talking about a no-fly zone, or is there a wider consensus? Fat lot of good it did in Iraq for all those years...

Raging_Ninja

savagecabbages wrote: »

Watching Euronews lastnight only half paying attention, but there seems to be talk an alternative way to enforce the no-fly zone with the rebels being armed with anti-aircraft weapons to enforce the no-fly zone themselves. Surely this is madness!

Did anyone hear anything more about this, or come across any sources??
Is it just David Cameron talking about a no-fly zone, or is there a wider consensus? Fat lot of good it did in Iraq for all those years...

Operation Provide Comfort was by all accounts a great success, which allowed tens of thousands of Kurdish refugees to return to their homes after a US battalion under the command of then-Lt. Col. John Abizaid with massive air support essentially conquered the northern third of Iraq.

maquiladora

savagecabbages wrote: »

Watching Euronews lastnight only half paying attention, but there seems to be talk an alternative way to enforce the no-fly zone with the rebels being armed with anti-aircraft weapons to enforce the no-fly zone themselves. Surely this is madness!

Did anyone hear anything more about this, or come across any sources??
Is it just David Cameron talking about a no-fly zone, or is there a wider consensus? Fat lot of good it did in Iraq for all those years...

The six Persian gulf states in the gcc said today that they "demand" a no fly zone. The libyan rebels have been for calling for it for some time too.

Getting approval from China and Russia at the UN is another matter though.

savagecabbages

I suppose yes your right the operation itself was quite successful, I was more talking about it being a near-sighted half solution to the problem. Hussein needed to be removed from power, and should have been in 1991.
Had 2003 not happened, how long more would these missions have continued?

I also mentioned that in the context of Libya, where countries may be reluctant to involve themselves in a potentially hugely expensive, long-term operation with questionable results tying down forces which are continually being reduced due to budget cuts.

Steyr

Italian Defence Ministry affirmed today that 8 fighters are on QRA alert at Trapani, Grosseto & Gioia del Colle ready for take off in 15 mins.

Manic Moran

So where does it stop?

Why enforce one? The Loyalists have an 'unfair advantage?' When they use an artillery regiment supporting a tank battalion, is that an 'unfair advantage' requiring that someone airstrike the tanks or artillery? How far down that path do people want to go?

NTM

BrianD

How vital a role is the Libyan Airforce playing to supporting the regime? They don't appear to be as active as one would think.

The Iraqi no fly zone did not stop ground activities and these continued in earnest despite the lack of planes in the sky.

Interesting that the Iraqi experience resulted in 4 Iraqi aircraft being shot down along with numerous SAM batteries destroyed. The Allies lost 2 aircraft and 26 marines in friendly fire. It lasted from 1991 to 2003 with Saddam in power till the end despitw 1000s of sorties. Didn't really help the ordinary man on the street who had to endure the despot and western sanctions.

So we really want to go down this half hearted route again? After all we're not really bothered what sort of bloodshed is happening in other parts of Africa.

concussion

I think the big difference here is that the Libyan AF is actively bombing and strafing rebel forces.

BrianD

concussion wrote: »

I think the big difference here is that the Libyan AF is actively bombing and strafing rebel forces.

Our news media are looping some dramatic smoke plumes from bombs dropped by the air force. However, one would think that given that NATO etc is supposed to have AWACs surveying Libyan air space there is very little official info being given on the extent of Libyan air operations.

A chap on Sky News raised a very valid point. The west has equipped many middle eastern nations - Egypt, Saudi Arabia and others with sophisticated air craft. They have the bases adjacent to the nation. Why aren't they being prodded to police any no fly zone?

BrianD

Looks like NATO aren't seeking a no-fly zone but will increase maritime presence.

savagecabbages

Unless Gaddafi's forces start doing somehing really crazy, the way I see this going is Western nations arming the rebels, rather than doing the dirty work themselves.
I think this is happening already, but I can see this action being stepped up...

Victor

BrianD wrote: »

A chap on Sky News raised a very valid point. The west has equipped many middle eastern nations - Egypt, Saudi Arabia and others with sophisticated air craft. They have the bases adjacent to the nation. Why aren't they being prodded to police any no fly zone?

Egypt has just undergone a revolution and it probably would look good for the military government to get involved in other people's problems just now. Saudi is too far away.

Steyr

NATO AWACS E-3A tail nr LX-N90446, NATO 22 just hands over from NATO 01, currently in orbit FL290 in Maltese airspace-3 hours ago.

Steyr

Now-NATO AWACS E-3A tail nr LX-N90442, NATO 03 just hands over from NATO 22, currently in orbit FL290 in Maltese airspace.

the monk5845

could this be a stepping stone to a land invasion by UN/NATO troops? If Libyan air defenses engage UN or NATO aircraft or if missiles are fired at ships could this then be used as an excuse to launch an invasion or other land operations? just wondering.

Unless Gaddafi's forces start doing somehing really crazy, the way I see this going is Western nations arming the rebels, rather than doing the dirty work themselves.
I think this is happening already, but I can see this action being stepped up...

I'm not sure if western country's want to arm rebels as this seems to cause more trouble then it solves in the long run

savagecabbages

the monk5845 wrote: »

I'm not sure if western country's want to arm rebels as this seems to cause more trouble then it solves in the long run

Absolutely true. I just dont think theres enough will amongst the 'west' to start another possible Afghanistan or Iraq. Maybe if a certain G. Bush was still in office things might be different, but as I see it the most we'll see is a no-fly zone or up-arming/advising of rebel forces. Neither of which are sensible ways out of this debacle.

What do you guys think? Will we see a NATO/UN/EU involvement?

Manic Moran

If they really want the rebels to win, then yes.

NTM