The left this, the right that..

s7ryf3925pivug · 11-10-2018 9:01am

ELM327 wrote: »

This is an example of ridiculous "left/liberal" (wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings) pandering that popped up in my facebook feed this morning

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/29/dont-call-pregnant-women-expectant-mothers-might-offend-transgender/

Yeah who do you know that thinks that way though? It's in the papers precisely because it's annoying and absurd and petty and provokes a reaction. That sort of nonsense does not define the left or liberals, no matter how frequently some people try to use it to.

WinnyThePoo · 11-10-2018 9:03am

Also facebook gives you content related to what your most attracted to clicking on. So if your obsessed with stories like the one ELM posted. It's most likely you spend alot of time looking for that stuff yourself.

Zorya · 11-10-2018 9:28am

Who wouldn't want to be aligned with the 'progressive' left as they lose control of their vowels? :rolleyes:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45810709

ELM327 · 11-10-2018 9:36am

Zorya wrote: »

Who wouldn't want to be aligned with the 'progressive' left as they lose control of their vowels? :rolleyes:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45810709

And their spelling.
"Spelled" is a derivative of "to spell".
"Spelt" is a grain.

ELM327 · 11-10-2018 9:38am

Corinne Handsome Joint wrote: »

Yeah who do you know that thinks that way though? It's in the papers precisely because it's annoying and absurd and petty and provokes a reaction. That sort of nonsense does not define the left or liberals, no matter how frequently some people try to use it to.

Well it defines a lot of "liberal/left" people I know indirectly.

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Also facebook gives you content related to what your most attracted to clicking on. So if your obsessed with stories like the one ELM posted. It's most likely you spend alot of time looking for that stuff yourself.

I found it in a group that laughs at this (or should that be ther) type of nonsense.

Danzy · 11-10-2018 9:42am

Brian? wrote: »

Jaysus that’s a mad way of thinking. It’s going to take me a while to parse that one.

Here’s a start. There were plenty of “modern” relaxed Muslim countries in the Middle East before they were used as proxies in the Cold War. Iran in particular was well on the right track before the yanks jammed the Shah back in.

Before this becomes “blame the yanks”, the Soviet Union royally messed up a fairly secular Afghanistan.

Lebanon was modern and liberal before its civil war and is returning that way.

Outside the Middle East you have Malaysia, a lovely spot. Christian, Taoist and Hindu minorities are very well integrated with the Muslim majority. My favourite country to visit, even during Ramadan.

Turkey, is teetering on the edge but it’s not run by “mad mullahs”.

Jordan has a king, again, not too bad.

Egypt is a basket case. But it hasn’t fallen over yet.

Morocco is grand.

Tunisia ditto, after a rough few years. No “mad mullahs”, but I could be wrong.

Algeria is grand. I think.

Libya. A mess. I’ll give you that one.

It’s only really the Gulf States that are horror shows.

So loads of countries, same religion. Varying outcomes. Not that I have any time for religions or religious Tom Foolery. Uganda and the Netherlands are both Christian countries, do you fear Christianity?

Never, ever had a fascist system worked for its people.

Many of those countries make Franco's Spain seem open.

Outside if the cold war the Islamic world has been undergoing a religious revival for nearly 90 years.

Roger Hassenforder · 11-10-2018 9:42am

ELM327 wrote: »

And their spelling.
"Spelled" is a derivative of "to spell".
"Spelt" is a grain.

Not so fast....
"Spelt" is also acceptable!

ELM327 · 11-10-2018 9:46am

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Not so fast....
"Spelt" is also acceptable!

Only in British English and only because of mass acceptance of initial incorrect usage

Brian? · 11-10-2018 11:10am

Wibbs wrote: »

Clearly you do. You can't even get the "which western nation screwed over which Middle Eastern nation" right.

I’m well aware of the history of Afghanistan. It was screwed over so many times it’s a horror show. Afghanistan was on the right path towards a more secular society before the Russians interfered and decided to make it the lastest Cold War battle ground.

Like most countries in Africa and Asia it suffered terribly in the immediate post colonial era.

It might be fun to look to this "right path" of yours. Smacks a bit of western cultural imperialism.

Ha. That’s first class irony. You’re painting all Islamic nations with the same brush, at the mercy of mad mullahs, and accusing me of “western cultural imperialism”

But no matter, what went on in Afghanistan between the different factions in Afghanistan in the 20th century would take up pages of back and forth, but that "right path" you speak of had few enough footprints. At best it was an autocratic monarchy. A few lassies wearing short skirts in 60's Tehran is no judge. Not in Afghanistan.

Actually yes. In Kabul. I think you may need a history lesson.

Jaysus, Cicero would be proud of that riposte.

Cicero would have actually. He understood that a lengthy argument wasn’t always needed to make a point. Cicero was a great orator and writer, he didn’t hand out one sided history lessons on the internet.

Not. You completely avoided my points about the deep cultural and political differences going on and glossed over the bit where I said "I have no doubt that down the line [the cultural baggage and nonsense] may well be overcome.". I also didn't go down the emotive "abandon all hope" either. I did point out that the majority of the Islamic world is a deep well of cultural baggage and nonsense that doesn't square with Western democracies and has been for a very long time.

I didn’t avoid your point. I think you’ll find you avoided mine. You did a little hand waving about “Asian culture” in relation to Malaysia and completely ignored every other country I mentioned that countered your initial point. You’re waffling on about cultural baggage and ignoring reality in many modern Islamic nations.

Let’s remember where this started. Someonene said they’d rather live in an Islamic country that one run by Nazis. You called that naive.

You’re also ignoring the evidence of Africa which is right in front of your nose. Absolute basket case, because of their colonial past not because of religious affiliation. Which was why I brought Uganda up.

Fundamentalist religious believers don’t square well with western values, full stop.

Brian? · 11-10-2018 11:12am

ELM327 wrote: »

This is an example of ridiculous "left/liberal" (wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings) pandering that popped up in my facebook feed this morning

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/29/dont-call-pregnant-women-expectant-mothers-might-offend-transgender/

Thanks for changing to left/liberal. It’s nice to see the point conceded quietly.

ELM327 · 11-10-2018 11:14am

Brian? wrote: »

Thanks for changing to left/liberal. It’s nice to see the point conceded quietly.

I'm unsure if you have noticed the dripping sarcasm but I'm going to assume given your previous posts that you haven't.

Brian? · 11-10-2018 11:15am

Danzy wrote: »

Many of those countries make Franco's Spain seem open.

Outside if the cold war the Islamic world has been undergoing a religious revival for nearly 90 years.

It ebbs and flows. We spend so much time reading about the Middle East, it’s hard to see that.

Saudi Arabia is the progenitor of the most hateful ideology of all, Wahhabism, but even there the laws are staring to slowly liberalise. Slowly, at a snails pace.

Brian? · 11-10-2018 11:16am

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm unsure if you have noticed the dripping sarcasm but I'm going to assume given your previous posts that you haven't.

Ah now. There’s no need for that. I was playing the double sarcasm card.

ELM327 · 11-10-2018 11:20am

Plenty of need for it.
You see today I identify as someone who doesn't care for your liberal agenda.
Who knows, tomorrow I may identify as Hilary Clinton. Or a stone. I thank the lefties for that personal freedom.

From now on I demand that you pander to my need for a personal pronoun of "Zhe" to indicate my general gender & species apathy

Brian? · 11-10-2018 11:27am

ELM327 wrote: »

Plenty of need for it.
You see today I identify as someone who doesn't care for your liberal agenda.
Who knows, tomorrow I may identify as Hilary Clinton. Or a stone. I thank the lefties for that personal freedom.

From now on I demand that you pander to my need for a personal pronoun of "Zhe" to indicate my general gender & species apathy

I don't have a liberal agenda. I'm not a liberal, I've explained that already.

You can identify as anything you want. Doesn't bother me, see how easy that is?

jmayo · 11-10-2018 12:01pm

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

To address that a little. It is now the same as it was 100 years ago. Except back then people could claim genuine hardship and not “boohoo, I can’t afford the latest iPhone, fcuking immigrants!”
AfD and Pegida use the same tactics as back then. “The world is in sh*t (no it isn’t) and if you vote for us, we will sort it out in 5 minutes! Because we are much more cleverer than ANYONE else in government!” And no matter what the question is, their answer is always the same. All dem immigants fault.
Back then the Nazis promised the exact same. Replace the word Muslim with Jew and you’re smack bang back a hundred years ago. Anti-Semitism didn’t start in the 30’s
How does this work? Well, there does seem to be a cruddy subsoil of disenfranchised oiks who have 2 major attributes. They are very angry and they are very stupid. Promise them nectar and ambrosia and you will get into power.

Hitler didn't just get into power based on oiks as you term them, unless of course you also term industrialists, professionals, middle class as oiks.
And before you go off on tirades about uneducated oiks being the worse racists or such, look up how many of the top people involved in dreaming up the haulocaust had third level education to a very high level and came from reasonably privileged backgrounds.

For instance look up who led the Einsatzgruppen and who was at the Wannsee conference.

This is the problem with your mindset you immediately see anyone that doesn't agree with you as an oik and dismiss them.

Problem is by the time you have copped on that a lot of them are far from oiks you are fooked, and so is entire society.

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Here is the beauty of how that works: The people who promise them this paradise (I we can just get rid of all those damn brown people) do not give one solitary sh*t about them or their promises
Do you know how Hitler did it? He put the economy on a course of guaranteed financial ruin! The state started spending money it didn’t even remotely have to simulate a “miraculous” economic recovery. A lot of people are saying “why did Hitler go to war so early when the army wasn’t ready?” He had to! He basically plundered all the countries he invaded. The Jews were turned into subhumans and stripped of their rights, and much more importantly, their wealth and the invaded countries were plundered.

He wasn't the first to start that, the Roman Empire was built on conquest. It had to continually add to it to keep the army going, which in turned ensured the survival of the empire.

A lot of people in the western world are facing massive problems due to globalisation and on the horizon automation.
And they see some of the politicians who were supposed to represent them offer platitudes about smart economies, higher value jobs whilst at the same time offering increased immigration for those who will offer even more competition.
And to top it off those same politicians are often arguing about what is gender, or demanding preferential treatment, no not equality, for some minority or other.

People get pis*ed off and even though the only one appearing to listen is a gobshyte and a liar, they will still get a lot of support often just to stick it to the establishment.
Of course there will be some that will agree with and wholeheartedly support the cackeyed, but I believe it is far from the case with all the so called supporters.

Ever notice how Irish have done protest votes in certain referendums or by elections ?

Wibbs · 11-10-2018 12:11pm

Brian? wrote: »

I’m well aware of the history of Afghanistan. It was screwed over so many times it’s a horror show. Afghanistan was on the right path towards a more secular society before the Russians interfered and decided to make it the lastest Cold War battle ground.

No, it wasn't. You can keep repeating this stuff, but it does not make it close to accurate.

Ha. That’s first class irony. You’re painting all Islamic nations with the same brush, at the mercy of mad mullahs, and accusing me of “western cultural imperialism”

Again you

country mile

point. Regardless, answer me this simple question if you can: In the last hundred years what has been the trajectory of the majority of Islamic nations as far as secularisation goes? In the last hundred years what has been the trajectory of the majority of Christian nations on the same path?

Cicero would have actually. He understood that a lengthy argument wasn’t always needed to make a point. Cicero was a great orator and writer, he didn’t hand out one sided history lessons on the internet.

Remove the internet part and you'll find - if you've ever read his output beyond bite sized wiki quotes - he was only too happy to hand out one sided history lessons. Usually ones that featured him as the hero.

I didn’t avoid your point. I think you’ll find you avoided mine. You did a little hand waving about “Asian culture” in relation to Malaysia and completely ignored every other country I mentioned that countered your initial point.

Because they quite simply didn't.

You’re waffling on about cultural baggage and ignoring reality in many modern Islamic nations.

Again answer me this simple question if you can: In the last hundred years what has been the trajectory of the majority of Islamic nations as far as secularisation goes?

Let’s remember where this started. Someonene said they’d rather live in an Islamic country that one run by Nazis. You called that naive.

A position I would still hold and for the reasons I gave.

You’re also ignoring the evidence of Africa which is right in front of your nose. Absolute basket case, because of their colonial past not because of religious affiliation. Which was why I brought Uganda up.

Yep it's all Whitey's fault. Doesn't quite explain Ethiopia which was never colonised. Doesn't explain how European colonies in Asia didn't end up as basket cases.

Fundamentalist religious believers don’t square well with western values, full stop.

In the pantheon of fundamentalist nations, how high in the ranking is Christianity, or buddhism, or Hinduism?

Wibbs · 11-10-2018 12:14pm

jmayo wrote: »

Hitler didn't just get into power based on oiks as you term them, unless of course you also term industrialists, professionals, middle class as oiks.
And before you go off on tirades about uneducated oiks being the worse racists or such, look up how many of the top people involved in dreaming up the haulocaust had third level education to a very high level and came from reasonably privileged backgrounds.

For instance look up who led the Einsatzgruppen and who was at the Wannsee conference.

This is the problem with your mindset you immediately see anyone that doesn't agree with you as an oik and dismiss them.

Problem is by the time you have copped on that a lot of them are far from oiks you are fooked, and so is entire society.

Unfortunately all too true. The same Nazi's were seen as a minor league joke by the German Left and Centre and described as mindless uneducated thugs. Until they were no longer a joke.

jmayo · 11-10-2018 12:39pm

Brian? wrote: »

Jaysus that’s a mad way of thinking. It’s going to take me a while to parse that one.

Here’s a start. There were plenty of “modern” relaxed Muslim countries in the Middle East before they were used as proxies in the Cold War. Iran in particular was well on the right track before the yanks jammed the Shah back in.

I would love to know your definition of modern and relaxed ?

Brian? wrote: »

Before this becomes “blame the yanks”, the Soviet Union royally messed up a fairly secular Afghanistan.

Ehh as Wibbs said it was in the likes of Kabul, but in the likes of deepest Helmand province not so much.
Much like modern Pakistan for instance.

AFAIK the Soviets invaded to prop up the communist puppet regime, which was the secularist, that was fighting insurrection and increased pressure form islamists.

The Politburo claimed that by overthrowing the leader Amin, they would ease the pace of the communist revolution and thereby protect the communist regime from collapsing due to its domestic unpopularity and the increasing threat of Islamist and Western forces.
Of course it could also have lot to do with protecting it's southern borders from a collapsing proxy state and the chance of an islamist backed US state appearing.

After the invasion the Afghans showed their usual trait of not tolerating outsiders and with much help from US and it's proxies set about dragging the USSR into a war they could never win.

The thing is the US helped create an islamist monster that gained confidence after the ultimate destruction of a western super power.

The result was much the same as to how Asians reacted upon seeing the Western empires and superpowers get their asses handed to them by the Japanese.

Brian? wrote: »

Lebanon was modern and liberal before its civil war and is returning that way.

Outside the Middle East you have Malaysia, a lovely spot. Christian, Taoist and Hindu minorities are very well integrated with the Muslim majority. My favourite country to visit, even during Ramadan.

Turkey, is teetering on the edge but it’s not run by “mad mullahs”.

Jordan has a king, again, not too bad.

Egypt is a basket case. But it hasn’t fallen over yet.

Morocco is grand.

So long as you are not a journalist, living in Western Sahara, aren't a young girl in domestic service and are not proselytizing for religions other than Islam.
The truth though is but for the royal regime and some of these dodgy human rights, it would probably turn into another right wing islamist state, with even worse human rights, much like nearly happened in Egypt.

Brian? wrote: »

Tunisia ditto, after a rough few years. No “mad mullahs”, but I could be wrong.

Just watch out for the beaches with the ISIS supporters.

Brian? wrote: »

Algeria is grand. I think.

Yeah right.
Who could not love the law that a wife has to provide medical confirmation that they have been incapacitated for at least 15 days due to abuse by their husbands before they can file charges. :rolleyes:

Brian? wrote: »

Libya. A mess. I’ll give you that one.

It’s only really the Gulf States that are horror shows.

So loads of countries, same religion. Varying outcomes. Not that I have any time for religions or religious Tom Foolery. Uganda and the Netherlands are both Christian countries, do you fear Christianity?

Never, ever had a fascist system worked for its people.

Ah yes the go to example of Uganda.
10 or 20 islamic states are varying degrees of shtyeholes with very poor rights for minorities and women, but there is always Uganda and the 70 odd members of the Westboro Baptist Church.

dr.fuzzenstein · 11-10-2018 3:19pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Unfortunately all too true. The same Nazi's were seen as a minor league joke by the German Left and Centre and described as mindless uneducated thugs. Until they were no longer a joke.

It's kind of my point. AfD and Pegida work by the same principle.
You just need a mantra.
"We need to do something, our country is under attack by (insert ethnic group of your (dis)liking here)! The country is in tatters and only we know how to fix it! Vote for us and we'll have this mess sorted pronto! And we'll get rid of a few people we don't like along the way"
No actual fixes are presented, other than blaming migrants or minority group.
This is nothing but a cynical ploy to garner votes.
I never said the right wing parties where stupid, it's more the right wing voters that are the problem, because they keep bying the same snakeoil and utter Horsescutter over and over again.

If you just stand before a group of people, puff yourself up and address the them in a loud, authoratiarian voice, oozing self-confience and keep repeating the above mantra over and over again, you WILL get votes.
People don't like to think for themselves. They just want someone to stand in front of them and deliver easy answers and scapegoats.

People keep falling for this sh*t over and over again. It's not just stupidity, it's (by definition) madness.

super_furry · 11-10-2018 3:23pm

There sometimes seems like there's a weird concerted effort to spread this far-right thinking here in After Hours and it's really not apparent anywhere else in Irish society, apart from maybe the comment section of The Journal.

Chris_Heilong · 11-10-2018 5:32pm

super_furry wrote: »

There sometimes seems like there's a weird concerted effort to spread this far-right thinking here in After Hours and it's really not apparent anywhere else in Irish society, apart from maybe the comment section of The Journal.

Any logical thinking adult would see the absolute sh*t show going on over on the left(Mostly related to PC culture) and not want to associate with that, many normal people do not know any better but the left try so desperately to prove they are correct maybe due to an insecure position as is proved on this thread with the constant posting from certain people with almost no content, this is not a game of 'last word' validates your opinion.

I blame the educational institutions who seem to have adopted the Marxist view of 'Change the world' and not the correct view which is 'Seek Truth'.

Here is an example of how ridiculous academia has become, a few Students who wanted to test how far they could push the extremely liberal Universities, They took Mein Kampf and switched out some of the words with Feminist buzzwords then submitted their paper to a journal for publishing and it was accepted:eek:

DEFTLEFTHAND · 11-10-2018 5:37pm

Most people opposing this extreme SJW weirdness are not some sort of far right loon.

You've all sorts of people rallying against it, classical liberals, libertarians, conservatives.

James Brown · 11-10-2018 5:42pm

The best trick is having a right wing government you support, do something you don't like and blaming the left, while continuing to support the very shower responsible.

super_furry · 11-10-2018 6:01pm

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Any logical thinking adult would see the absolute sh*t show going on over on the left(Mostly related to PC culture) and not want to associate with that, many normal people do not know any better but the left try so desperately to prove they are correct maybe due to an insecure position as is proved on this thread with the constant posting from certain people with almost no content, this is not a game of 'last word' validates your opinion.

I blame the educational institutions who seem to have adopted the Marxist view of 'Change the world' and not the correct view which is 'Seek Truth'.

Here is an example of how ridiculous academia has become, a few Students who wanted to test how far they could push the extremely liberal Universities, They took Mein Kampf and switched out some of the words with Feminist buzzwords then submitted their paper to a journal for publishing and it was accepted:eek:

How is any of that relevant in Irish life or Irish society?

There's so many people who have wrapped up their persona in online American politics and in following American politcal YouTubers and writers that they assume that this whole American left wing/right wing, republican/democrat, SJW/alt-right, nonsense is transferable to Irish life. It's not.

Wibbs · 11-10-2018 6:03pm

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

People don't like to think for themselves. They just want someone to stand in front of them and deliver easy answers and scapegoats.

Hardly exclusive to the hard Right types. The hard Left are just as gullible and just as keen on scapegoats.

Widdershins · 11-10-2018 8:40pm

Either you or ''The Left'' need to ''recognise'' the difference between sex and gender.
Right there is a prime example of why people dislike the current Leftist politics. It's completely illogical and yet arrogant with it.

Danzy · 12-10-2018 11:23am

super_furry wrote: »

There sometimes seems like there's a weird concerted effort to spread this far-right thinking here in After Hours and it's really not apparent anywhere else in Irish society, apart from maybe the comment section of The Journal.

I guess you'll blame that conspiracy on Mossad.

Always easier to pretend it is all a concerted effort. Couldn't be others think different

Shalom.

dr.fuzzenstein · 12-10-2018 11:55am

super_furry wrote: »

There sometimes seems like there's a weird concerted effort to spread this far-right thinking here in After Hours and it's really not apparent anywhere else in Irish society, apart from maybe the comment section of The Journal.

There is a definite rise of far right-wing populist governments in Europe:
(Note, I am talking about the loony fringe here)*

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36130006

Based on what? Well, the crash in 2008 (courtesy of one George W Bush) brought economic hardship and anyone standing up and shouting that it's all the fault of those dirty immigrants and if we vote for them, all our problems will disappear and we'll get back the shiny, plastic-fantastic world of the 1950's in glorious technicolor, netted themselves a nice bunch of votes.
And we'll sort out those queers and womenfolk who are getting a little too big for their boots anyway.

Reality WILL show that they are all rat-catchers and economic imbeciles. You disagree? Italy.
It's not that these people are stupid, but they are also not intelligent. They are devious, power-hungry, controlling and a bunch of psychopaths mostly. The rest are just happy to run along because they want to be on the "winning" side for once.
And their voters are either simpletons who believe anyone who just tells them "don't worry your pretty little head, vote for me and I'll put evrything right. I have easy and quick solutions for everything, just don't go asking me for details" or they know bloody well it's all politcal mumbo-jumbo, but they're hoping to just get a nice little windfall in their pockets and they don't care about whatever sh*t these guys are up to.

*Wibbs, of course there are loony left people, but they seem to be more obsessed with finding 17 gender pronouns fo their cat, rather than to supress minorities, gays, journalists, women and environmentalist scientists.
The far right, to my mind, is ALWAYS far more intolerant, bigotted and violent than the far left.
The last far left terror organisation was the RAF in Germany and they died out with the DDR, but violent Skinhead gangs are ten a penny. In Leipzig you couldn't throw a brick without hitting a Nazi skinhead.

Chris_Heilong · 12-10-2018 12:05pm

Can anyone explain what makes them far right-wing as opposed to just right wing?

ELM327 · 12-10-2018 12:56pm

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Can anyone explain what makes them far right-wing as opposed to just right wing?

The will of the left I think, Chris.

s7ryf3925pivug · 12-10-2018 12:58pm

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Can anyone explain what makes them far right-wing as opposed to just right wing?

I think of it roughly like this:

Right wing:
Reduce taxes and public spending - usually except police and military. In particular reduce welfare payments.
Protect traditional values and way of life.
Strong immigration controls.

Far right:
Discriminate against non-traditional non-national groups.
Militarisation often involved, in terms of cultural shift, draft... fascism by definition involves political violence.
Punitive measures applied against non-traditional behaviour, non traditional ethnic groups.
Extreme immigration controls.
Extreme cuts to public spending except police and military
Increased power given to police
Reduced accountability of the state to the citizenry

Chris_Heilong · 12-10-2018 1:05pm

Corinne Handsome Joint wrote: »

I think of it roughly like this:

Right wing:
Reduce taxes and public spending - usually except police and military. In particular reduce welfare payments.
Protect traditional values and way of life.
Strong immigration controls.

Far right:
Discriminate against non-traditional non-national groups.
Militarisation often involved, in terms of cultural shift, draft... fascism by definition involves political violence.
Punitive measures applied against non-traditional behaviour, non traditional ethnic groups.
Extreme immigration controls.
Extreme cuts to public spending except police and military
Increased power given to police
Reduced accountability of the state to the citizenry

Well that does not sound nice at all, although maybe the police could do with a little more power here.

Danzy · 12-10-2018 1:11pm

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Can anyone explain what makes them far right-wing as opposed to just right wing?

What could it be but fascism that would make someone non conform with much of the modern Left.

The Left wasn't always like that though.

Dissent is not fascism, nonconfirmity with all positions is not fsscism, disagreements or counter arguments are not fascism.

A very vocal and growing position in the Left disagrees.

The ones that agree are drowned out,keep quite orv are fewer than I imagine.

dr.fuzzenstein · 12-10-2018 1:57pm

ELM327 wrote: »

The will of the left I think, Chris.

Well there is obviously a difference between traditional, conservative, christian parties and foam at the mouth far-right loony rat catchers.

ELM327 · 12-10-2018 2:12pm

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Well there is obviously a difference between traditional, conservative, christian parties and foam at the mouth far-right loony rat catchers.

From left to right you've got:

Loony left (eg Antifa, social justice warriors, AAA/PBP ect)
Left wing - Normal people with a bias towards high taxes for "rich" and high government expenditure (from each according to his ability to pay, to each according to his need) often, but not always, secular

Centre - Generally people who don't really care enough to get involved
Right wing - Normal people with a bias towards lower taxes and lower government expenditure, often (but not always) conservative/religious. I count myself in this group
Extreme/far right (eg neo nazis etc)

jmayo · 12-10-2018 3:11pm

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

There is a definite rise of far right-wing populist governments in Europe:
(Note, I am talking about the loony fringe here)*

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36130006

Based on what? Well, the crash in 2008 (courtesy of one George W Bush) brought economic hardship and anyone standing up and shouting that it's all the fault of those dirty immigrants and if we vote for them, all our problems will disappear and we'll get back the shiny, plastic-fantastic world of the 1950's in glorious technicolor, netted themselves a nice bunch of votes.

Who has blamed the economic hardship due to fallout from economic crash on immigrants?
You keep claiming this, but I have yet to see anyone particularly around here claim this.

Or are you just listening to some gobshytes in the US bleating on about Make Merica Great or some eejits in UK claiming they would be economic powerhouse but for EU.

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

And we'll sort out those queers and womenfolk who are getting a little too big for their boots anyway.

Reality WILL show that they are all rat-catchers and economic imbeciles. You disagree? Italy.
It's not that these people are stupid, but they are also not intelligent. They are devious, power-hungry, controlling and a bunch of psychopaths mostly. The rest are just happy to run along because they want to be on the "winning" side for once.
And their voters are either simpletons who believe anyone who just tells them "don't worry your pretty little head, vote for me and I'll put evrything right. I have easy and quick solutions for everything, just don't go asking me for details" or they know bloody well it's all politcal mumbo-jumbo, but they're hoping to just get a nice little windfall in their pockets and they don't care about whatever sh*t these guys are up to.

You really do have a huge superiority complex going on.
And as I said pointedly earlier, Trump would never have made to the Whitehouse if he was just relying on racists and complete uneducated idiots.

And you gave a synopsis of how Hitler got to power, but you appear to have learned nothing from it.

These people get to power because people like you refuse to countenance that a lot of people are disillusioned with the establishment and what current political parties and leaders are offering.
And no it is not that people want to put gays back in a box or walk all over some minority ethnic group or other.

Maybe it has something to do with them losing their livelihoods and a future for their kids.
Maybe it has something to do with seeing a load of people arrive from God knows where and compete with them for what little low paid employment is open to them and for state funded education and welfare.
Maybe it is seeing dead on the streets of their country and being told that a facebook page and candle lit vigil will be how to fight back.

Of course to you they are bigots and racists because they should welcome someone with open arms that takes the job their kid might get, the home their kids might get, or jumps ahead of them in the queue for that operation and hospital bed.

Maybe if you actually really looked at history you would find that usually these people and their ancestors were the ones that overwhelmingly voted for the left and the political parties that brought you the gender equality, the state funded education and healthcare.

Now when they are needed, what are the left offering ?

More immigrants or even worse as has been evidenced somewhat in the UK, the toleration of people from certain immigrant communities being allowed to prey on their kids ala Rochdale, Rotherham, Newcastle, Telford, etc.
FFS a labour MP had to resign because she brought up the elephant with the fooking turban in the room, the fact the vast majority of the ones involved in those gangs were of a particular background.

All you do is complain they are idiots and attribute attitudes to them that aren't always true.

s7ryf3925pivug · 12-10-2018 3:23pm

I don't think it's right to equate centrism with disinterest. I think centrists are quite concerned by the emerging extremes on both wings.

ELM327 · 12-10-2018 3:26pm

Corinne Handsome Joint wrote: »

I don't think it's right to equate centrism with disinterest. I think centrists are quite concerned by the emerging extremes on both wings.

That's a fair point but centrism is marked by no leaning towards high or low taxation, levels of government spending or interference.
Surely if you're concerned and interested you'll pick a side, rather than "oh there's this problem ... well I'm staying neutral"

dr.fuzzenstein · 12-10-2018 3:26pm

ELM327 wrote: »

From left to right you've got:

Loony left (eg Antifa, social justice warriors, AAA/PBP ect)
Left wing - Normal people with a bias towards high taxes for "rich" and high government expenditure (from each according to his ability to pay, to each according to his need) often, but not always, secular

Centre - Generally people who don't really care enough to get involved
Right wing - Normal people with a bias towards lower taxes and lower government expenditure, often (but not always) conservative/religious. I count myself in this group
Extreme/far right (eg neo nazis etc)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ussCHoQttyQ

Though I feel the middle gets a bad deal, maybe they're the overlooked, smart, quiet middle-child who knew the answer all along, but everyone's too busy shouting at each other to listen to any kind of reason? I know I have.

ELM327 wrote: »

That's a fair point but centrism is marked by no leaning towards high or low taxation, levels of government spending or interference.
Surely if you're concerned and interested you'll pick a side, rather than "oh there's this problem ... well I'm staying neutral"

As this thread has demonstarated, maybe that's exactly the problem? I dig my trench over here, you dig your trench over there and we just hurl logial missiles at each other, but neither will concede or give in to the other, because "that's the other side and our side has to win".

Doctor Jimbob · 12-10-2018 3:31pm

ELM327 wrote: »

That's a fair point but centrism is marked by no leaning towards high or low taxation, levels of government spending or interference.
Surely if you're concerned and interested you'll pick a side, rather than "oh there's this problem ... well I'm staying neutral"

I suppose you'd have people who'd consider themselves centrist on the basis that they're (for example) economically right but socially left, or vice versa.

Wibbs · 12-10-2018 3:44pm

ELM327 wrote: »

That's a fair point but centrism is marked by no leaning towards high or low taxation, levels of government spending or interference.
Surely if you're concerned and interested you'll pick a side, rather than "oh there's this problem ... well I'm staying neutral"

For me it's not about "sides". Indeed picking sides and usually swallowing wholesale what "your" side has agreed is a large part of the problem.

For me anyway a centrist is someone who picks from a few sides and tries to avoid the extremes of either. I'd consider myself a centrist for the most part. In hard left terms I'd be a fascist in some ways, in hard right terms a commie

. I favour the welfare state and access to subsidised health and education. I certainly wouldn't want the daft and near criminal American system where a broken leg means the doctor can put down a deposit on a new Maserati, or where dialling for an ambulance can cost thousands. Sod that. I am in favour of government and society keeping out of people's private lives where it comes to sexuality. Gender too for that matter. Though I reserve the right to ask questions. I despise culturally mandated givens that must not be questioned. On the other hand I am not in favour of the push for "multiculturalism". It brings more negatives than positives once it gets beyond a certain level and I definitely don't want Ireland to repeat the clear daftness of that policy that has been running for a couple generations in Europe. On that score I would also be extremely culturist in my thinking. I most certainly do not consider all cultures to be equally valid.

ELM327 · 12-10-2018 3:45pm

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

I suppose you'd have people who'd consider themselves centrist on the basis that they're (for example) economically right but socially left, or vice versa.

That's me.
Economically far right, socially left. But the one thing I'd never consider myself is centrist! :pac:

pxdf9i5cmoavkz · 12-10-2018 4:45pm

While this theory tends to attract criticism its sometimes difficult to not argue it has a few merits.

The horseshoe theory asserts that the far left and the far right, rather than being at opposite and opposing ends of a linear political continuum, in fact closely resemble one another

There are far-left and far-right morons arguing to be separated from <their choice of ethnicity> which is exactly what the other side also wants. I suppose both sides are saying thanks?

The one thing that is also weird is anyone saying that this political divide can safely be ignored because it's "not here in Ireland". This is really short sighted and brings to mind the "Boiling Frog" metaphor. This divide is slow and insidious and not immediately noticeable. Year after year it becomes just that little bit more divided.

What is especially distasteful is the Culture of Shaming we find ourselves in. This is really the worst and I'm not sorry to say that the left shines in this area. It's something that needs to stop.

This world of ours seems to be developing into a cluster**** of narcissistic personality disorders. and yes, not everyone is like this, of course not everyone is like this and yet the consequences of offending a narcissist armed in a culture of shaming gives you this.

Chris_Heilong · 13-10-2018 12:40pm

Wibbs wrote: »

For me it's not about "sides". Indeed picking sides and usually swallowing wholesale what "your" side has agreed is a large part of the problem.

For me anyway a centrist is someone who picks from a few sides and tries to avoid the extremes of either. I'd consider myself a centrist for the most part. In hard left terms I'd be a fascist in some ways, in hard right terms a commie . I favour the welfare state and access to subsidised health and education. I certainly wouldn't want the daft and near criminal American system where a broken leg means the doctor can put down a deposit on a new Maserati, or where dialling for an ambulance can cost thousands. Sod that. I am in favour of government and society keeping out of people's private lives where it comes to sexuality. Gender too for that matter. Though I reserve the right to ask questions. I despise culturally mandated givens that must not be questioned. On the other hand I am not in favour of the push for "multiculturalism". It brings more negatives than positives once it gets beyond a certain level and I definitely don't want Ireland to repeat the clear daftness of that policy that has been running for a couple generations in Europe. On that score I would also be extremely culturist in my thinking. I most certainly do not consider all cultures to be equally valid.

That is correct, In an ideal world a system with the best elements of everything(a bit of capitalism here, a sprinkling of socialism there) is what we should be striving for IMO and the more centrists there are the better because in an ideological war between two sides we all end up losing.

The left this, the right that..

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