Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

Alrigghtythen · 14-02-2019 8:09pm

evolving_doors wrote: »

She replied when challenged on it. The fact that you only heard screeching shows you'd rather play the 'female hysteria' trope, as opposed to debating it yourself.

Moaning about screeching!
The irony is lost on ya.

Who was she, I missed the introduction. She played up well to the stereotype. Tears and everything

Twenty Grand · 14-02-2019 8:50pm

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Who was she, I missed the introduction. She played up well to the stereotype. Tears and everything[/QUOTE

Can you hear tears over the radio? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

evolving_doors · 14-02-2019 9:23pm

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Who was she, I missed the introduction. She played up well to the stereotype. Tears and everything

Dragons den lady... Ya the tears were about when her husband was dying the nurses were there for her. From that brief example I'd say nurses are damm important and they should be given the staffing and time to deal with things like that.

I saw it myself when I used to work in a hospital as a porter. People dying alone cos the nurses hadn't the time to give. That's what this is about. Recruitment and retention and respect in hospitals.

No problems whatsoever handing over 2 billion to the private sector pigs at the trough. Then another 500k to more private sector know all's to tell us what?

But ya sure, the public sector caused the recession and they'll do it again .... keep banging that drum till yer on yet death bed in hospital.... alone.

Old diesel · 14-02-2019 10:04pm

If that was Norah Casey that was on she actually used to be a Nurse.

15-02-2019 3:22am

evolving_doors wrote: »

No problems whatsoever handing over 2 billion to the private sector pigs at the trough. Then another 500k to more private sector know all's to tell us what?

You must be absolutely outraged at the cost of public service pay increases then.

The hospital 1 billion cost overrun is for a building that will be used for the next 100 years.

Pay increases will exceed that cost in just 4 years. Then another 1 billion 4 years after that. Then another 1 billion 4 years after that.

And for what? Better public services? You haven't a clue and jump on the nearest bandwagon to deflect reality.

evolving_doors · 15-02-2019 7:39am

salonfire wrote: »

You must be absolutely outraged at the cost of public service pay increases then.

The hospital 1 billion cost overrun is for a building that will be used for the next 100 years.

Pay increases will exceed that cost in just 4 years. Then another 1 billion 4 years after that. Then another 1 billion 4 years after that.

And for what? Better public services? You haven't a clue and jump on the nearest bandwagon to deflect reality.

I have a clue. I'm in the public service and have worked in a hospital. If you think a 2 billion budget for a hospital and a modest pay increase are mutually exclusive then you're the one deflecting.

Yes. Pay more you get get better staff.

The only counter argument you can have is to advocate paying less for a better outcome??

Do you think we have to pay them more or less.... which is it?

daithi7 · 15-02-2019 12:10pm

Well, Ireland had already got the ~second best paid nurses on the planet, (& assumedly similar relativity for other Hse workers) yet we get the worst health outcomes in the OECD.

All this with one of the youngest populations in the OECD. It is a disgrace.

We have the Worst Value Health Service on the Planet (source OECD), and yet this government want to throw even more money at an already overpaid sector in it. And this will undoubtedly bring the whole public service back to the trough. CRAZY!!! SIMPLY CRAZY!!!!

Twenty Grand · 15-02-2019 12:12pm

daithi7 wrote: »

All this with one of the youngest populations in the OECD. It is a disgrace. !

Ah yes, the youngest population in the The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.

I love being a citizen of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development... :rolleyes:

acequion · 15-02-2019 12:18pm

daithi7 wrote: »

Well, Ireland had already got the ~second best paid nurses on the planet, (& assumedly similar relativity for other Hse workers) yet we get the worst health outcomes in the OECD.

All this with one of the youngest populations in the OECD. It is a disgrace.

We have the Worst Value Health Service on the Planet (source OECD), and yet this government want to throw even more money at an already overpaid sector in it. And this will undoubtedly bring the whole public service back to the trough. CRAZY!!! SIMPLY CRAZY!!!!

"On the planet" now.It will be on the galaxy next.:rolleyes: The exaggerations keep soaring up and up. Entertaining to read.

Miike · 15-02-2019 12:24pm

OECD OECD OECD

*Rocking back and forth intensifies*

daithi7 · 15-02-2019 12:30pm

Miike wrote: »

OECD OECD OECD

*Rocking back and forth intensifies*

Yeah, it's a harsh reality when (elements of) our public service are actually bench marked. And it's extraordinary how the public service here does not stand up to scrutiny.

And this all by a neutral objective international respected body.

Is there any (well run) country in the western world that pays their public service their ~ total income tax take?!?

facehugger99 · 15-02-2019 12:31pm

The bigger the PS gets the more Shills it has and the greater its political influence.

It will eventually collapse under its own weight. There's only so much the parasite can guzzle before its private sector host dies.

Twenty Grand · 15-02-2019 1:04pm

daithi7 wrote: »

Yeah, it's a harsh reality when (elements of) our public service are actually bench marked. And it's extraordinary how the public service here does not stand up to scrutiny.

And this all by a neutral objective international respected body.

Is there any (well run) country in the western world that pays their public service their ~ total income tax take?!?

Care to answer my comments in the previous page where the OECD admits its near impossible to benchmark anything?

Also, point out in the study where it compares value for money?
I take it you've read the study?
I'll wait.

daithi7 · 15-02-2019 1:19pm

Ireland spends in the top decile in cost per person for healthcare versus being in the lowest decile for outcomes achieved in the OECD.

With one of the youngest populations in the OECD .

=> The Worst Value for money Health Service in the World.

Twenty Grand · 15-02-2019 1:36pm

daithi7 wrote: »

Ireland spends in the top decile in cost per person for healthcare versus being in the lowest decile for outcomes achieved in the OECD.

With one of the youngest populations in the OECD .

=> The Worst Value for money Health Service in the World.

No link? Did you make that up?

daithi7 · 15-02-2019 1:37pm

Read the Oecd health reports yourself! !

(i can dig out a link, but frankly I couldn't be arsed)

Twenty Grand · 15-02-2019 2:26pm

daithi7 wrote: »

Read the Oecd health reports yourself! !

(i can dig out a link, but frankly I couldn't be arsed)

I have. I dont think you have though.

Usually the onus is on the person making the claim to prove it.

You've been on here rubbishing nurses claims of overcrowding and poor pay, while pointing to a bullsh*t OECD report that's full of disclaimers and notes which you conveniently omit.

daithi7 · 15-02-2019 3:14pm

Twenty Grand wrote: »

I have. I dont think you have though.

Usually the onus is on the person making the claim to prove it.

You've been on here rubbishing nurses claims of overcrowding and poor pay, while pointing to a bullsh*t OECD report that's full of disclaimers and notes which you conveniently omit.

Firstly, it's not just one OECD report it's a whole of series of them compiled, researched and written over several years benchmarking health & other sectors in & between the OECD countries. This is done by an international, neutral, highly respected organisation but because it doesn't suit your agenda you brand it *bullsh1t*]

Secondly, I never once rubbished claims of overcrowding, that is also a figment of your bs imagination.

Thirdly, overcrowding in hospitals itself is yet another indicator (as if we needed another) of just how poor value money our health service actually is I.e. our health spend per capita is in the top decile of OECD countries , yet we still end up with over crowded hospitals. Just how can that be!?

QED

Twenty Grand · 15-02-2019 3:56pm

daithi7 wrote: »

Firstly, it's not just one OECD report it's a whole of series of them compiled, researched and written over several years benchmarking health & other sectors in & between the OECD countries. This is done by an international, neutral, highly respected organisation but because it doesn't suit your agenda you brand it *bullsh1t*]

Secondly, I never once rubbished claims of overcrowding, that is also a figment of your bs imagination.

Thirdly, overcrowding in hospitals itself is yet another indicator (as if we needed another) of just how poor value money our health service actually is I.e. our health spend per capita is in the top decile, yet we still end up with over crowded hospitals. Just how can that be!?

QED

I'm well aware there are many.
Which one specifically are you referring to?

I'm aware they're a recognised body, and the reports are used, but it's ridiculous to publish statistics that are not true, without notes on error, which they don't do. They only put in a disclaimer to the fact, which you happily ignore because it supports your agenda.

You have dismissed nurses opinions.

Hospital management and conditions are not the fault of nurses, so why deny them raises which match their market value.

facehugger99 · 15-02-2019 4:08pm

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Hospital management and conditions are not the fault of nurses, so why deny them raises which match their market value.

The pretence that the public sector unions and their members are all just innocent bystanders is hilarious.

They are the main opposition to enacting any meaningful systemic changes into the HSE.

Twenty Grand · 15-02-2019 4:10pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

The pretence that the public sector unions and their members are all just innocent bystanders is hilarious.

They are the main opposition to enacting any meaningful systemic changes into the HSE.

Based on what?
Examples?

Or are you not going to bother? Just like you still haven't bothered to back up your previous claims.

facehugger99 · 15-02-2019 4:19pm

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Based on what?
Examples?

Or are you not going to bother? Just like you still haven't bothered to back up your previous claims.

Life's too short and I suspect any examples provided would be rubbished - you have form.

Most reasonable people understand the role of Unions have played in blocking changes to working practices.

Twenty Grand · 15-02-2019 4:24pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

Life's too short and I suspect any examples provided would be rubbished - you have form.

Most reasonable people understand the role of Unions have played in blocking changes to working practices.

Sure we'll all just say whatever we want so. My form is to call bullsh*t on half baked dubious claims with no knowledge or understanding.
Some people can't see beyond their own prejudices.

Unions protect the interests of their members, and are especially necessary in the health sectors, where nurses and doctors work long hours in abysmal conditions, more out of the goodness of their hearts than any financial reward.

tom1ie · 15-02-2019 6:09pm

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Sure we'll all just say whatever we want so. My form is to call bullsh*t on half baked dubious claims with no knowledge or understanding.
Some people can't see beyond their own prejudices.

Unions protect the interests of their members, and are especially necessary in the health sectors, where nurses and doctors work long hours in abysmal conditions, more out of the goodness of their hearts than any financial reward.

This is true. Unions are very important in protecting workers rights and are an important part of the public and private sector.
However, if a private company was making money than the union has every right to look for a pay rise. If the private company is loss making they haven't a hope of getting the pay rise.

How then, can we justify a pay rise for ANY public sector worker when the employer (the government/economy) is just about breaking even and is shackled by massive debts?
All this against a backdrop of a booming economy which means there is not much more capacity left in the economy to grow a surplus.

I'm not against pay increases for anyone that works for a profitable employer, but when that employer is just scraping by, then we might have problems at the next downturn, especially as our "credit card" is maxed out from the last downturn.

koppy · 16-02-2019 3:48pm

Posted on Facebook by "Support for nurses,midwives and front line staff in ireland"

A MESSAGE SENT TO US TODAY GIVING ONE NURSES VIEW ON THE PAY RECOMENDATIONS:

We have all had a chance to look at the new pay deal.
It's simply NOT pay parity no matter how much it's dressed up.
It's merely allowances that we all knew would be offered but we all had the good sense to see through it, that this was our last chance to gain some level of respect for the profession. We demanded pay parity across the board.
We demanded fairness! Surely that's not much to ask for. Parity would lead to more nurses and midwives staying in Ireland and indeed returning from abroad which in turn would lead to safer staffing and conditions. And it would lead to respect, something that's disappearing fast in the profession.
And so we went on strike, a decision none of us took lightly.
Many of us lost money in this strike. We stood in the freezing cold for hours. We got soaked to the skin. We worked on wards with only half staff whilst our colleagues picketed and we worked bloody hard. We accepted the massive public support with heart felt thanks. Our colleagues abroad held rallies that got international attention and support worldwide. We were the amazing Irish nurses and midwives who finally developed a back bone and demanded better treatment for our patients and ourselves!
We marched with pride in one of the biggest protests this country has ever seen and we had and have the nation standing with us. It was truly the greatest day for nurses and midwives in Ireland.
At the rally last Saturday , amongst all the cheers and delight and encouragement for our new found nursing hero, Phil Ni Sheaghdha, there was a deathly silence when she introduced the man who taught her, in her own words, "everything she knows". That man was Liam Doran. The same man who failed all of us miserably over the years. And sure enough Phil was correct. He appears to have taught her how to fool us just as he had done for years!
And after all the joy and hope, the recommendation was released. We all checked to see what we would gain knowing full well that it's not even close to parity of pay but suddenly "sure something is better than nothing isn't it?", started creeping in!
But what has me more shocked than anything in all of this is how any nurse or midwife could possibly accept a deal that sees over 14,000 of our colleagues left behind with nothing! The same colleagues who marched beside us full of hope for the future. That to me is absolutely shameful!
Allowances can be taken off us at the drop of a hat! We saw that when we managed to get our working hours reduced but within a few short months the government and our weak unions forced us to increase our hours back to 39 hours. We are all still working 1.5hrs for free each week!!! Why is that?
What other sector would allow themselves to be abused like this?
This new deal is a shambles. It does nothing but create a divide and creates even more disrespect for the profession.
And we remain at the bottom rung of the ladder.
From newly qualified nurses and midwives to ADONs and DONs and many many retired colleagues we stood in complete unity outside Leinster House. We would win this battle together!
What happened to that unity?
Don't forget that feeling of pride at how we were united.
Don't swallow deals that don't include each and every single one of us nurses and midwives.
We went into this together. Thousands of our colleagues are now left behind and we absolutely cannot allow that to happen.
Have the courage to stand up to both the government and the unions and vote NO to this deal. We know that together we have the power to have our demands met. And that demand is parity of pay for each and every single one of us!
Let's regroup and go back to focusing on all of us and how all of us deserve pay parity instead of just thinking about ourselves individually and allowances that will more than likely be a temporary measure to shut us up.
This is our very last chance! We can still win this for ALL of us TOGETHER!

Fiery mutant · 16-02-2019 4:09pm

**** right off with your pay rise.

16-02-2019 5:26pm

evolving_doors wrote: »

I have a clue. I'm in the public service and have worked in a hospital. If you think a 2 billion budget for a hospital and a modest pay increase are mutually exclusive then you're the one deflecting.

Yes. Pay more you get get better staff.

The only counter argument you can have is to advocate paying less for a better outcome??

Do you think we have to pay them more or less.... which is it?

You're a hypocrite. Where is your outrage about the increase in HSE spending from under 14bn per year in 2014 to almost 18bn this year? You throw out the 1bn Hospital overrun in faux outrage to take a swipe at the government and to deflect from the true beneficiaries of increased public spending; your wallet.

Nurses were already getting increases through an agreed deal. There wasn't any objections from the public to that agreement.

But instead nurses used their power in using patients as hostages to make a further grab at the trough; leaving oncology patients laying at home with treatment cancelled.

There is no widespread shortage of nursing applicants; as confirmed by the Commission in Public Pay and the HSE themselves saying there 1.86 applicant for every vacancy.

facehugger99 · 16-02-2019 5:48pm

koppy wrote: »

A MESSAGE SENT TO US TODAY GIVING ONE NURSES VIEW ON THE PAY RECOMENDATIONS:

!

What a moany fcuking cow.

Mrsmum · 16-02-2019 6:17pm

koppy wrote: »

Posted on Facebook by "Support for nurses,midwives and front line staff in ireland"

A MESSAGE SENT TO US TODAY GIVING ONE NURSES VIEW ON THE PAY RECOMENDATIONS:

We have all had a chance to look at the new pay deal.
It's simply NOT pay parity no matter how much it's dressed up.

I'm trying to understand this pay parity. So is it that the nurses want to be on the exact same pay scale as a physio or ot for example in the HSE ?? I can't see the other professions standing for that but what is the norm worldwide ??

thomasdylan · 16-02-2019 6:28pm

salonfire wrote: »

There is no widespread shortage of nursing applicants; as confirmed by the Commission in Public Pay and the HSE themselves saying there 1.86 applicant for every vacancy.

Come on, 1.86 applicants for every vacancy is terrible.

koppy · 16-02-2019 6:46pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

What a moany fcuking cow.

I'm not moaning about anything if that's aimed at me. Only copying a post.

noodler · 16-02-2019 6:53pm

feckthisgenie wrote: »

I will repeat it was the private sector that bankrupt the country before and it will be them again.
It's not the public servants that are the problem, it's the clueless government that throw money in the wrong areas and don't staff areas adequately.
Again I repeat it's the greed of all the private sector that destroy the economy and they're the problem.
We are the salt of the earth in the public sector

So many lies.

When the country has a massive deficit after because it spent tax revenues that were not cyclical, who do you blame?

Where did all this extra money go? The answer is pay, pensions, welfare and tax cuts.

The private sector bankrupted the country is a new one, are some people not aware that our deficits during the recession were nothing to so with bailing out the banks?

noodler · 16-02-2019 6:55pm

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Based on what?
Examples?

Or are you not going to bother? Just like you still haven't bothered to back up your previous claims.

"we just striked and forced the government to spend the money... It's not our fault we got it"

is_that_so · 16-02-2019 7:46pm

Mrsmum wrote: »

I'm trying to understand this pay parity. So is it that the nurses want to be on the exact same pay scale as a physio or ot for example in the HSE ?? I can't see the other professions standing for that but what is the norm worldwide ??

It's a union thing and by agreeing that different jobs are the same level so that when one group gets a raise any other group deemed to have parity do as well. Generally in the PS and in companies with strong union cultures they try to avoid or eliminate this arcane practice for very obvious reasons - knock-on costs.

14-03-2019 9:39am

It seems that one of the sticking points is that the HSE want nurses to stop working elsewhere on their days off. No wonder they’re knackered.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/doublejobbing-nurses-face-curbs-under-draft-government-contract-37903572.html

iamwhoiam · 14-03-2019 10:00am

Deleted User wrote: »

It seems that one of the sticking points is that the HSE want nurses to stop working elsewhere on their days off. No wonder they’re knackered.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/doublejobbing-nurses-face-curbs-under-draft-government-contract-37903572.html

Some nurses work part time in the HSE and do agency work when it suits the family . Many parents do it that way as they work less agency when the kids are off school .I had many colleagues who managed a young family that way as they are not tied to agency work and can do it as it suits
I did it that way when my kids were very small , I job shared part time .But would work an agency shift if we needed extra for school trips or other little bits we needed

14-03-2019 10:04am

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Some nurses work part time in the HSE and do agency work when it suits the family . Many parents do it that way as they work less agency when the kids are off school .I had many colleagues who managed a young family that way as they are not tied to agency work and can do it as it suits

I took it to mean full time nurses working 3 X 13 hour days working another day or two for an agency. They’re trying to stamp nurses working more than 48 hours a week. That’s only fair given the hard job that nursing is.

iamwhoiam · 14-03-2019 10:08am

Deleted User wrote: »

I took it to mean full time nurses working 3 X 13 hour days working another day or two for an agency. They’re trying to stamp nurses working more than 48 hours a week. That’s only fair given the hard job that nursing is.

Ok thats a different story so .,I tend to agree with you as 39 hours is enough and working extra could mean too little sleep .I knew a few nurses ( those supporting families abroad ) who would work a night shift and then work next afternoon .
Although many also work agency when on holidays from their job which I think is fair enough

mariaalice · 14-03-2019 10:11am

Deleted User wrote: »

I took it to mean full time nurses working 3 X 13 hour days working another day or two for an agency. They’re trying to stamp nurses working more than 48 hours a week. That’s only fair given the hard job that nursing is.

It a minor part of the whole issue and an odd thing to focus on, nursing is middling to ok paid job most are a cog in the wheel of the HSE empire. Why focus on them.

Lots of people work overtime are we going to ban all over time or just over time for nurses?.

Uriel. · 14-03-2019 10:12am

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Ok thats a different story so .,I tend to agree with you as 39 hours is enough and working extra could mean too little sleep .I knew a few nurses ( those supporting families abroad ) who would work a night shift and then work next afternoon .
Although many also work agency when on holidays from their job which I think is fair enough

This is surely a patient safety issue.

iamwhoiam · 14-03-2019 10:14am

Uriel. wrote: »

This is surely a patient safety issue.

Yes, in my opinion it was .It didnt happen too often but other staff would be aware and have a word about its safety .

14-03-2019 10:19am

mariaalice wrote: »

It a minor part of the whole issue and an odd thing to focus on, nursing is middling to ok paid job most are a cog in the wheel of the HSE empire. Why focus on them.

Lots of people work overtime are we going to ban all over time or just over time for nurses?.

If you read the article, it wants to limit the hours worked to a maximum of 48 a week. This gives roughly 8 hours for overtime. It’s hard to have sympathy for someone choosing to work 2 jobs and complaining about the toughness of their main one.

mariaalice · 14-03-2019 10:43am

Deleted User wrote: »

If you read the article, it wants to limit the hours worked to a maximum of 48 a week. This gives roughly 8 hours for overtime. It’s hard to have sympathy for someone choosing to work 2 jobs and complaining about the toughness of their main one.

Very few have two jobs though.

Old diesel · 14-03-2019 11:51am

Reading the article closely - I get the impression that the curb on "double jobbing" is to allow the HSE gain "flexibility" in terms of its employed staff.

Looks to me that instead of a Nurse working 20 hours HSE and 12 agency hours - the latter when it suits the nurse.

The HSE would like the nurse to do extra hours for HSE BUT the HSE wants to dictate when and where the nurse does these hours.

jimmycrackcorm · 15-03-2019 5:10am

Deleted User wrote: »

It seems that one of the sticking points is that the HSE want nurses to stop working elsewhere on their days off. No wonder they’re knackered.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/doublejobbing-nurses-face-curbs-under-draft-government-contract-37903572.html

Yet, no problem asking them to work overtime

Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

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