Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

Goldengirl

alloywheel wrote: »

Including allowances the HSE themselves have admitted average pay for nurses is 57,000 per year (link provided earlier) ...but do not let facts get in your way.

This is the link that has been shown as biased and inaccurate several times through the thread. Go back to your cave!

STB.

jeonahr wrote: »

Source please, I had read somewhere that the average nurse’s pay was just under the national average. My father is a senior nurse with almost 20 years experience in this country alone and only earns €30,000-€35,000 per annum and this is usually with a minimum of one day overtime every week.

Wasting your time. He has no sources. The thread is littered with misinformation from the same poster.

Goldengirl

STB. wrote: »

Wasting your time. He has no sources. The thread is littered with misinformation from the same poster.

Yes I have done with him and one or two others. They are, I agree, rereg for this thread and trying to derail any constructive meaningful debate , as they do under other names on any other thread about social issues. No facts or real discussion, just ignorance and bile , usually directed at anyone with a bit of positivity in their outlook.

1641

Goldengirl wrote: »

Because when they accepted that there would be a Commission it was meant to look at the issue of nurses' pay . However Paschal restricted the Commission from a finding in favour of a pay award and directed them to other measures, thereby making the whole thing an exercise in how to frustrate and aggravate both the PayCommission( who could not find in favour of Pay! ) and Nurses' , who hitherto had accepted everything taken from them , and had specifically requested this be looked into.
You know this...you are posing the same questions over and over , hoping you will get support from those who are not particularly well informed.It is almost as if you are a government spin doctor ?

That is a complete lie - either you have just made it up or it has been fed to you by Sile Ni Goebbels. Provide any evidence that the independent commission was so directed by anyone. Every evening you come on with similiar rubbish as this.


And as for posing similar question over and over, this is first time I have posed this question - or perhaps you could point to the post where I posed it before. And then perhaps you could actually answer the question - without trying to divert with outlandish rubbish, as usual.

alloywheel

jeonahr wrote: »

Source please,

If you read the thread you will see it, often repeated. The Irish Times reported it too.

If you prefer the Irish Sun, here is their link, where they examined nurses salaries:https://www.thesun.ie/news/3715917/irish-nurses-salaries-comparison-teachers-gardai-strike/

They say "the HSE has provided contrasting figures showing the average pay — including allowances and other extras for unsociable hours — comes to €57,000. This is for all grades, including nursing managers and specialist nurses.

And, according to the HSE, the average pay of a staff nurse only comes to €53,000 — which is still higher than the average industrial salary of around €38,000."

Martina1991

jeonahr wrote:

Source please, I had read somewhere that the average nurse’s pay was just under the national average. My father is a senior nurse with almost 20 years experience in this country alone and only earns €30,000-€35,000 per annum and this is usually with a minimum of one day overtime every week.

30-35k is quite a broad bracket.
How would he be on so little with that much experience? The salary scale goes up to 45k+.

facehugger99

STB. wrote: »

[/I]


The reason this country is in the red is through irresponsible lending, irresponsible developers gambling on a continued celtic tiger, and finally the bailing out of unsecured bondholders who wanted their money back having gambled on private businesses.

Its nothing to do with nurses pay nor pensions.


Go back to school.

You’re wrong, PS pay and pensions are the main contributors to our debt, but the reasons hardly matters.

The fact the country is 200 billion in debt is an undeniable fact.

Another gouging of taxpayers by public sevenths is unaffordable.

If you can’t get your head around that, I’ll get my 8 year old to explain it to you.

2011abc

It’s so easy to see the Fine Gael-ers now they’re getting sloppy ! EG one recent poster with only 2 or 3 random posts on various fora and nearly 200 on this thread ! Do FG really reckon After Hours is the beating heart of the country and must be swayed

alloywheel

STB. wrote: »

That will be very difficult given there are only 65,000 employed in the state.

The HSE is the largest employer in the State, with more than 67,000 direct employees, and a further 35,000 employed by agencies funded by the HSE.




Link:
https://www.per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/3.-HSE-Pay-and-Staffing.pdf


Interestingly, it says Ireland has " a high number of nurses per capita compared to other OECD countries in 2015. This resulted in Ireland having a significantly high ratio of nurses to doctors at 3.8 in 2015, well above the OECD average."

In the shambles that is the HSE, the Examiner says that the HSE: hires almost three times more office staff than nurses
https://www.irishexaminer.com/.../hse-hires-almost-three-times-more-office-staff-than-n...
It alsio says (and I quote) :While the total number of people employed by the HSE has increased from 99,327 to 110,975 or 11.54% since the end of 2014, the number of administration and managerial staff has risen 17.21% from 15,113 in December 2014 to 17,705 in December 2017.

110,975 and they still have massive waiting times, people on trolleys, people going abroad for treatment etc

And you say there are only 65,000 STB. lol

facehugger99

2011abc wrote: »

It’s so easy to see the Fine Gael-ers now they’re getting sloppy ! EG one recent poster with only 2 or 3 random posts on various fora and nearly 200 on this thread ! Do FG really reckon After Hours is the beating heart of the country and must be swayed

Seems like the nurses union does.

The NHS whilst not perfect has a better system than ireland. This has very little to do with nurses wages.

Mocadonna

Martina1991 wrote: »

30-35k is quite a broad bracket.
How would he be on so little with that much experience? The salary scale goes up to 45k+.

There is an awful lot of misinformation being spread. I saw somewhere else last week a nurse claiming they were on 25k a year, when pressed on it she admitted this was because she only works part time due to having children. Nothing wrong with working part time, but to make out that nurses earn this when the salary starts at 30k is very misleading.

Of course she had the usual "Leo should hang his head in shame, that's a shocking wage" crowd on the hook already so facts don't really matter. That's the way the world is gone these days I suppose.

1641

STB. wrote: »

[/I]
The reason this country is in the red is through irresponsible lending, irresponsible developers gambling on a continued celtic tiger, and finally the bailing out of unsecured bondholders who wanted their money back having gambled on private businesses.

Its nothing to do with nurses pay nor pensions.
Go back to school.

If you learned that in school, presumably it was playschool.


Ireland's debt currently €200 billion.
Approx €58 billion (net) of that relates to bank bailouts (Source Central Bank)
Approx €47 billion relates to existing debts prior to the crash.
Approx €95 billion is excess of Government spending over income (tax) since 2008 to keep the country running. As well as public sector pay and pension it, of course includes Social Welfare, educational and other supports, local gov,etc. But it does show how much we were living beyond our means, when the mad property related tax boom of the bubble. Hopefully we will not experience another bubble soon.

STB.

alloywheel wrote: »

The HSE is the largest employer in the State, with more than 67,000 direct employees, and a further 35,000 employed by agencies funded by the HSE.

Link:
https://www.per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/3.-HSE-Pay-and-Staffing.pdf

Interestingly, it says Ireland has " a high number of nurses per capita compared to other OECD countries in 2015. This resulted in Ireland having a significantly high ratio of nurses to doctors at 3.8 in 2015, well above the OECD average."

Yes but this thread is about NURSES.

YOU made claims that there are 100,000 nurses on sick leave every month, despite the fact that there are are only circa 35,000 nurses employed directly by the HSE (the actually figure is 36,342).

Are you going to delete your post or at the least admit that this is a ridiculous statement.

And forget that DPER document. The HSE were double counting their staff. The reality is outlined in this letter to DPER. 2000 nurses less than 2007.

https://www.inmo.ie/tempDocs/Letters%20P%20Donohoe%20and%20R%20Watt%20Reply.pdf

alloywheel

2011abc wrote: »

It’s so easy to see the Fine Gael-ers now they’re getting sloppy !

Fine Gael are the party in charge of the HSE, and they are the party responsible for the New Childrens hospital being the most expensive per bed (by far) in the world. Shocking incompetence.

1641

Goldengirl wrote: »

Yes I have done with him and one or two others. They are, I agree, rereg for this thread and trying to derail any constructive meaningful debate , as they do under other names on any other thread about social issues. No facts or real discussion, just ignorance and bile , usually directed at anyone with a bit of positivity in their outlook.

From you, this is funny!

Mocadonna

Thephantomsmask wrote: »

You didn't answer my question though, are nurses going to give up that allowance, and others, and start funding those qualifications themselves in lieu of higher base pay? The INMO claim they want pay parity with AHPs, that works both ways and I doubt that the HSE are going to give AHPs the same allowances or final year paid practical placements in college to ensure parity. Nurses "only get paid extra for one" better than getting paid nothing extra at all for a post grad after you have paid thousands to receive it.

That doesn't even touch on the multiple managerial grades over the clinical staff and specialisation grades which earn far more than top level AHPs. AHP base pay is higher because they have nowhere near the earning and career opportunities available to them over the course of their career that nursing staff do. I guess that doesn't matter though because every nurse isn't a DON.

Funnily enough, the same managerial grades (who are most certainly going to be on the old, higher payscale) want their 12% too, instead of advocating for the front line nurses and, most importantly, the new recruits to be paid appropriately. These are the new recruits that the INMO voted to give a lower salary to in the first place. Why do managerial grades need a 12% pay rise to supposedly improve conditions and retention when they aren't the ones on the wards?

The INMO claim *we can't retain newly qualified staff because money is too low* well, that's what happens when they are punished by pulling the ladder up from them to protect existing members... If this was about ending two tier pay for new recruits, I would support that 100%. Instead it is sticking the hand out for all grades, breaching PSSA agreements, while still burdening the new recruits with lower pay.

I asked a similar question a while back. An OT starts on 35000, a nurse on 30000. If the nurse works with the OT they get an allowance of 3700, so there isn't really a hell of a difference at the moment.

alloywheel

STB. wrote: »

YOU made claims that there are 100,000 nurses on sick leave every month, despite the fact that there are are only circa 35,000 nurses employed directly by the HSE (the actually figure is 36,342).

Are you going to delete your post or at the least admit that this is a ridiculous statement.

We were discussing the HSE and I said (and you should go back and look at the post) "If there was not 100,000 days a month lost to absenteeism it would help a lot."

1641

jeonahr wrote: »

Source please, I had read somewhere that the average nurse’s pay was just under the national average. My father is a senior nurse with almost 20 years experience in this country alone and only earns €30,000-€35,000 per annum and this is usually with a minimum of one day overtime every week.[/QUOTE]


In response to questions from The Irish Times, the Department of Public Expenditure later released figures which show that average pay for nurses is €57-58,000 a year when allowances and premium payments are included. It also said 83 per cent of nurses and midwives earn over €40,000 in basic salary, excluding allowances.


As regards your father's alleged annual earnings, how is that even possible? Excluding allowances and premiums, the basic staff nurse scale goes far higher than this.

STB.

1641 wrote: »

If you learned that in school, presumably it was playschool.
Ireland's debt currently €200 billion.


Approx €58 billion (net) of that relates to bank bailouts (Source Central Bank)
Approx €47 billion relates to existing debts prior to the crash.


Approx €95 billion is excess of Government spending over income (tax) since 2008 to keep the country running.



As well as public sector pay and pension it, of course includes Social Welfare, educational and other supports, local gov,etc. But it does show how much we were living beyond our means, when the mad property related tax boom of the bubble. Hopefully we will not experience another bubble soon.

If you are going to selectively quote me, at least quote what I was responding to which was this genius.

Originally Posted by alloywheel This country is 200 billion in the red, thanks to very large public sector pay and pensions as it is

STB.

alloywheel wrote: »

We were discussing the HSE and I said (and you should go back and look at the post) "If there was not 100,000 days a month lost to absenteeism it would help a lot."

No we were not. You were making outlandish and spreading mis-information. I asked you for a source. You didn't have one.

alloywheel wrote: »

If there was not 100,000 days a month lost to absenteeism it would help a lot. The slighest bit of a cold or a hangover or an ache and they are off. Even nurses themselves admit that.

LESSON: Read stuff, research. It makes you more intelligent when debating and gives less weight to people that might argue that you are just a troll, with a massive chip on their shoulder.

alloywheel

And indeed public sector pay and pensions spiralling since 2002 is part of the reason the debt of the country is so high.

Mocadonna

backspin. wrote: »

The top of the basic staff nurse scale is about 46K before allowances. An OT an a Physio is on about 52K. Those figures rise as they reach Senior grades and rise again if they get to Clinical Nurse Manager grades.

https://www.inmo.ie/salary_information

Yes unlike a lot of people in this thread I've checked the salary scales on the INMO site and other grades from the HSE. It's just mad that people are arguing over an OECD report being inaccurate, while also cheerleading people who say after 20 years experience a nurse is earning 30-35k when there is information to the contrary readily available.

1641

Goldengirl wrote: »

This is the link that has been shown as biased and inaccurate several times through the thread. Go back to your cave!

I asked earlier if you any link to an independent assessment of nurses' average earnings in Ireland. No luck yet? So it seems that the OECD is the best available then:


While other countries provide data on a different basis, the 2017 figure of US$ PPP 63,464 remains an accurate estimate of what an average nurse earns in Ireland. While international comparisons are difficult, due to differences in how the figures are compiled, the OECD is the best source of data and the actual salary figures reported by the OECD do not suggest that nurses are low paid.”

Does US$ PPP 63,464 convert to about €56000 at current rates ? I take it this is the average across all grades.

backspin.

Mocadonna wrote: »

Yes unlike a lot of people in this thread I've checked the salary scales on the INMO site and other grades from the HSE. It's just mad that people are arguing over an OECD report being inaccurate, while also cheerleading people who say after 20 years experience a nurse is earning 30-35k when there is information to the contrary readily available.

With their allowances they could easily rise to well over 50K, in line with the other grades they compare themselves to. If they get their 12% payrise will they then be earning more than OT's and Radiographers and Physios when you take account of the allowances etc.

STB.

alloywheel wrote: »

And indeed public sector pay and pensions spiralling since 2002 is part of the reason the debt of the country is so high.

You are clearly not the sharpest knife in the drawer and obviously someone with an axe to grind against nurses and public service workers.

Get some genuine arguments if you want to have a pop at frontline staff.

Public service pay and pensions have reduced since 2009. A thing called FEMPI. Then there was FEMPI Pension related deduction meaning employees of the state paid more towards their pension.

The Public Service Pay and Pensions Bill 2017 underpins the restoration of financial emergency (FEMPI) pay cuts imposed during the economic crisis.

Let us know how you are getting on for your audacious claims about the 100,000 nurses (out of 36,000 employed) that go sick every month.

1641

1641 wrote: »

In relation to the INMO pay claim for parity with Physios, OTs, etc., this is what the Independent Pay Commission concluded:

"Furthermore, given the strength of conviction expressed to the Commission by the profession about the pay and status comparison with what they regard as comparable health professions and the need for fundamental reforms which will impact signicantly on nursing and midwifery in the context of implementing Sláintecare, the Commission believes there would be value in considering a more general review embracing the full spectrum of issues relating to scope and role (including task transfer), structure, operational flexibilities, management responsibilities, professional development and other measures designed to improve the quality and effciency of service delivery in an integrated way, alongside any compensation issues to be argued by the staff side."

It seems to that they were somewhat sceptical of the claim but recommended it be reviewed in the context of reforms to improve quality and efficiency of service delivery.

The INMO accepted the Commission so why reject it conclusions ? Because it suggested the claim could only be considered in the context of reforms?

As none of the nursing reps have answered this, I'll give my take on it. The INMO know that significant reforms and changes are coming down the line if Slaintecare develops. They also know that all groups will be looking for sweeteners and allowances for their cooperation. The INMO will not be at the back of the queue for this. So they want to get a pay claim in and settled now so that they can pocket it and come back for more in return for reform later.

Mad_maxx

alloywheel wrote: »

Correct. And we pay our nurses here far more (it costs the taxpayer here more) than nurses earn (get paid by the UK taxpayer) in the NHS, which is a more efficient system, less waiting lists, less people on trolleys etc.

Comparing nurses salaries to the richest countries where they have huge natural resources (oil, mining etc) gets nobody anywhere. This country is 200 billion in the red, thanks to very large public sector pay and pensions as it is.

Using Australia as a comparison is meaningless, nurses in Greece have as much credibility demanding higher wages because "Australia pays it"

Mad_maxx

STB. wrote: »

[/I]


The reason this country is in the red is through irresponsible lending, irresponsible developers gambling on a continued celtic tiger, and finally the bailing out of unsecured bondholders who wanted their money back having gambled on private businesses.

Its nothing to do with nurses pay nor pensions.


Go back to school.

Convenient cherry picking

facehugger99

STB. wrote: »

You are clearly not the sharpest knife in the drawer

Whereas you seem like the nicest nurse on the ward.