Graham Linehan given police warning for "transphobia"

ceadaoin. · 10-02-2019 7:21pm

Candamir wrote: »

Very good point. Stephanie seems to be a vile individual. Nothing to do with the fact that she’s transgender.

On a completely separate note, here’s a link referencing a man in the UK who has several criminal convictions, including an incident where another man ended up bleeding from the back of his head after an affray with a golf club.
https://www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/exclusive-transgender-lawyer-suing-graham-linehan-was-convicted-threatening-man-golf

:rolleyes:

Stephanie Hayden, who is also suing Mumsnet and recently sued a transsexual solicitor, now identifies as a lawyer.

One eyed Jack · 10-02-2019 7:33pm

super_furry wrote: »

They have such a hard time of it across every part of their lives, for me, if you can make things even slightly easier for them by using their preferred pronouns and their names, why wouldn't you?

If only it were so simple, but it isn’t, and you’re undoubtedly aware that it isn’t so simple. Everyone in one way or another has such a hard time of it across every part of their lives, but none of those people have specific accommodations in law which compel other people to refer to them as they prefer to be referred to. If trans advocates could make those people’s lives easier by not compelling them to refer to trans people as they prefer to be referred to, then not only would they be making those people’s lives easier, but they’d be making their own lives easier too.

Or does the concept of “treat others as you would like to be treated” not equally apply to trans people as much as it applies to anyone else?

ceadaoin. · 10-02-2019 7:36pm

Here is another recent case of a police contacting a 74 year woman over her thought crimes. Can anyone point out anything incorrect or offensive about what she wrote? It also mentions the man who was contacted about a "hate incident".

Margaret Nelson is a 74-year-old woman who lives in a village in Suffolk. On Monday morning she was woken by a telephone call. It was an officer from Suffolk police. The officer wanted to speak to Mrs Nelson about her Twitter account and her blog.

Mrs Nelson, a former humanist celebrant and one-time local newspaper journalist, enjoys tweeting and writing about a number of issues, including the legal and social distinctions between sex and gender.

Among the statements she made on Twitter last month and which apparently concerned that police officer: ‘Gender is BS. Pass it on’.

Another:

Gender’s fashionable nonsense. Sex is real. I’ve no reason to feel ashamed of stating the truth. The bloody annoying ones are those who use words like ‘cis’ or ‘terf’ and other BS, and relegate biological women to a ‘subset’. Sorry you believe the mythology.’

The blog, meanwhile, is mainly about death and funeral rituals: Mrs Nelson has officiated at many funerals. One of her blog posts, on 19 January 2018, challenges the statement that ‘transwomen are women’ on the grounds that a person’s proclaimed gender does not change their biological sex.

Mrs Nelson wrote:

‘If a transgender person’s body was dissected, either for medical education or a post-mortem examination, his or her sex would also be obvious to a student or pathologist. Not the sex that he or she chose to present as, but his or her natal sex; the sex that he or she was born with. Even when a body has been buried for a very long time, so that there is no soft tissue left, only bone, it is still possible to identify the sex. DNA and characteristics such as the shape of the pelvis will be clear proof of the sex of the corpse.’

Mrs Nelson told me this about the call from the police:

‘The officer said she wanted to talk to me about some of the things I’d written on Twitter and my blog. She said that some of the things that I’d written could have upset or offended transgender people. So could I please stop writing things like that and perhaps I could remove those posts and tweets?’

‘I asked the officer if she agreed that free speech was important. She said it was. I said that in that case, she’d understand that I wouldn’t be removing the posts or stopping saying the things I think. She accepted that and that was the end of the conversation.’

Mrs Nelson says the that officer made no suggestion that anything she had done was illegal. She says the officer gave no reason for the call.

She later asked the Suffolk force for an explanation, and received, via Twitter, this explanation:

Hi Margaret, we had a number of people contact us on social media about the comments made online. A follow-up call was made for no other reason than to raise awareness of the complaints. Kind regards, Web Team.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/02/why-are-the-police-stopping-a-74-year-old-tweeting-about-transgenderism/

Robert Wolfe · 10-02-2019 7:42pm

freshpopcorn wrote: »

It will be interesting to see what will happen with Ian Huntley.
From what I know they are talks of him changing genders. So l, he may be transferred feŕed to a female prison.

They surely won't give in to that freak's demands.

FTA69 · 10-02-2019 8:05pm

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

It's very easily avoidable. There wouldn't be a debate if people were prepared to live and let live.

"There just bloke's in skirts as far as im concerned" - Your opinion doesn't matter, mate. You're just some incurious, barely literate idiot on the internet. Try being a nice idiot.

Sorry mate, I didn't say that at all. You're quoting someone else. And yes there is a debate to be had about female spaces and categories.

Over here a male sex offender transitioned inside, was moved to a women's prison and promptly sexually assaulted two women. In many female sports, we are seeing transwomen compete to the absolute detriment of women in that particular sport. Rachel McKinnon in cycling is one example, you also had a transitioned person called Fallon Fox who was beating the f*ck out of women like no tomorrow.

My partner is a competitive amateur boxer, should she be expected to fight people with male physiques?

These are real questions with real world applications and it's not nearly as simple as you're making out.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 10-02-2019 8:20pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Sorry mate, I didn't say that at all. You're quoting someone else. And yes there is a debate to be had about female spaces and categories.

Someone did, but not sure if it was trolling or unimaginable ignorance. Can sometimes be hard to tell.

Over here a male sex offender transitioned inside, was moved to a women's prison and promptly sexually assaulted two women. In many female sports, we are seeing transwomen compete to the absolute detriment of women in that particular sport. Rachel McKinnon in cycling is one example, you also had a transitioned person called Fallon Fox who was beating the f*ck out of women like no tomorrow.

My partner is a competitive amateur boxer, should she be expected to fight people with male physiques?

These are real questions with real world applications and it's not nearly as simple as you're making out.

Yep, there are indeed implications, but that's not really a reason for ignorance and demanding that your (general, not you personally) definition of gender should be taken more seriously than someone else's because you've got no reference or knowlegdge of transgenderism and can't be arsed finding out.

Zorya · 10-02-2019 8:23pm

Oh, all this poor poor trans people guff again from the usual posters, telling us to be nice. As if we are monsters.

We are not. No one wants to hurt trans people at all. No one! Trans people are perfectly entitled and welcome to express their gender however they feel like it and as adults to have surgeries to affirm their dispositions.
People know full well that gender dysphoria must be a terrible suffering.

People just do not want to have to -

adhere to scientific denialism that claims sex is not biological

or to accept that trans women are indistinguishable from birth women
(likewise transmen)

or to allow children to be taught the wholly destructive, disruptive and false idea culled from radical gender theory that they could have been born in the ''wrong body''.

That's all.

AndrewJRenko · 10-02-2019 8:25pm

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Changing your identity is a great way to hide a criminal past. Even better if you can punish people who make a connection between former names and criminal convictions. This is the terrible harrassment that Stephanie is constantly complaining about.

Anyone can change their identity at any time. It's nothing to do with gender.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/problems_in_marriages_and_other_relationships/changing_your_name_by_deed_poll.html

freshpopcorn wrote: »

It will be interesting to see what will happen with Ian Huntley.
From what I know they are talks of him changing genders. So l, he may be transferred feŕed to a female prison.

That's a UK case, isn't it?

ceadaoin. wrote: »

I read that there are plans to set up specific facilities for trans gender prisoners. The likes of Huntley won't be happy with that I'm sure but it's the best solution IMO.

That's in the UK, isn't it?

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Here is another recent case of a police contacting a 74 year woman over her thought crimes. Can anyone point out anything incorrect or offensive about what she wrote? It also mentions the man who was contacted about a "hate incident".

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/02/why-are-the-police-stopping-a-74-year-old-tweeting-about-transgenderism/

That's a UK case, isn't it?

FTA69 wrote: »

Sorry mate, I didn't say that at all. You're quoting someone else. And yes there is a debate to be had about female spaces and categories.

Over here a male sex offender transitioned inside, was moved to a women's prison and promptly sexually assaulted two women. In many female sports, we are seeing transwomen compete to the absolute detriment of women in that particular sport. Rachel McKinnon in cycling is one example, you also had a transitioned person called Fallon Fox who was beating the f*ck out of women like no tomorrow.

My partner is a competitive amateur boxer, should she be expected to fight people with male physiques?

These are real questions with real world applications and it's not nearly as simple as you're making out.

They're UK cases, aren't they?

I'm curious as to why some people are so determined to import this particular controversy from the UK when there is no such controversy here after 3 years of self-identification.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 10-02-2019 8:26pm

Zorya wrote: »

Oh, all this poor poor trans people guff again from the usual posters, telling us to be nice. As if we are monsters.

We are not. No one wants to hurt trans people at all. No one! Trans people are perfectly entitled and welcome to express their gender however they feel like it and as adults to have surgeries to affirm their dispositions.
People know full well that gender dysphoria must be a terrible suffering.

People just do not want to have to -

adhere to scientific denialism that claims sex is not biological

or to accept that trans women are indistinguishable from birth women
(likewise transmen)

or to allow children to be taught the wholly destructive, disruptive and false idea culled from radical gender theory that they could have been born in the ''wrong body''.

That's all.

Bit of a contradiction? If you say they deserve to be respected then why the poor poor guff line? Tarrinng everyone with the same brush isn't going to help.

ceadaoin. · 10-02-2019 8:30pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Anyone can change their identity at any time. It's nothing to do with gender.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/problems_in_marriages_and_other_relationships/changing_your_name_by_deed_poll.html

That's a UK case, isn't it?

That's in the UK, isn't it?

That's a UK case, isn't it?

They're UK cases, aren't they?

I'm curious as to why some people are so determined to import this particular controversy from the UK when there is no such controversy here after 3 years of self-identification.

Nice blatant ignoring of the Irish case I linked to in one the posts you quoted!

Yes, anyone can change their identity at any time. It's only in the case of gender though that people are campaigning for others to be punished for referencing any former names, campaigning for criminal records in former names to be expunged, making it so that former names do not need to be disclosed for a background check and even claiming that the person literally no longer exists. You can't see any problems with any of that?

Zorya · 10-02-2019 8:31pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Bit of a contradiction? If you say they deserve to be respected then why the poor poor guff line? Tarrinng everyone with the same brush isn't going to help.

The poor poor trans people guff is your guff. Yours. You are one of the ones always going on about people not being nice to the poor trans. Not me.

Candamir · 10-02-2019 8:34pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Bit of a contradiction? If you say they deserve to be respected then why the poor poor guff line? Tarrinng everyone with the same brush isn't going to help.

You seem to have completely misread the post. Or are deliberately misrepresenting it. Either way, you’re wrong.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 10-02-2019 8:36pm

Zorya wrote: »

The poor poor trans people guff is your guff. Yours. You are one of the ones always going on about people not being nice to the poor trans. Not me.

I'd ask you to quote a post of mine indicating what "guff" you're talking about, but we both know I'd either get an amazingly vague quote to a post that wasn't even close, or some blind distracting moral-highground claim and not an actual link to a post, so we can call that bull**** right there.

Beyond that, my point was you don't respect trans people, you just pretend to and highlighted the part of your post that proved it. Just be more honest about it.

FTA69 · 10-02-2019 8:36pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Anyone can change their identity at any time. It's nothing to do with gender.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/problems_in_marriages_and_other_relationships/changing_your_name_by_deed_poll.html

That's a UK case, isn't it?

That's in the UK, isn't it?

That's a UK case, isn't it?

They're UK cases, aren't they?

I'm curious as to why some people are so determined to import this particular controversy from the UK when there is no such controversy here after 3 years of self-identification.

Because I live in the UK for one. Secondly what happens here will usually occur in Ireland at some stage as well. There's no point in going "oh that's the UK" and insinuating that these issues will never crop up in Ireland.

Do you think it's fair on female athletes to have to compete against transwomen in contact sports? Do you think male prisoners with sexual assault convictions should be allowed in female prisons?

ceadaoin. · 10-02-2019 8:53pm

Why has there not been any campaigns for trans men to be housed in male prisons. Could it be because it's acknowledged that it is not safe to house males and females in prison together? Why does that change when the male says he is really a woman but not when a female says she is really a man? Can anyone explain this logically? The same goes for sports. It is acknowledged that females competing in male sports will have no advantages, even with supplemental testosterone. But these biological advantages are completely ignored when it comes to trans women competing against women. In every possible scenario, it's females losing out. Says it all.

AndrewJRenko · 10-02-2019 9:03pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Because I live in the UK for one. Secondly what happens here will usually occur in Ireland at some stage as well. There's no point in going "oh that's the UK" and insinuating that these issues will never crop up in Ireland.

Ireland is years ahead of the UK on this. We've had three years of self-identification, with no significant issues arising.

So again, I'm curious as to why some people are so determined to import this particular UK controversy here, to create a problem that doesn't exist.

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Nice blatant ignoring of the Irish case I linked to in one the posts you quoted!

Yes, anyone can change their identity at any time. It's only in the case of gender though that people are campaigning for others to be punished for referencing any former names, campaigning for criminal records in former names to be expunged, making it so that former names do not need to be disclosed for a background check and even claiming that the person literally no longer exists. You can't see any problems with any of that?

Tell me more about these campaigns - who is campaigning for these objectives you mention in Ireland?

AndrewJRenko · 10-02-2019 9:07pm

ceadaoin. wrote: »

In every possible scenario, it's females losing out. Says it all.

Except for the scenario of the last three years of self-identification in Ireland where no female has lost anything out.

Says it all.

ceadaoin. · 10-02-2019 9:16pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Ireland is years ahead of the UK on this. We've had three years of self-identification, with no significant issues arising.

So again, I'm curious as to why some people are so determined to import this particular UK controversy here, to create a problem that doesn't exist.

Tell me more about these campaigns - who is campaigning for these objectives you mention in Ireland?

Any comment about the Irish case ?

A District Judge is to consider legal submissions as to whether a transgender person could be properly before a court on a charges under the Misuse of Drugs Act, having been charged as a male but was now registered under the Gender Recognition Act of 2015 as a female.

The issue arose when an application was made by the State before Judge Fiona Lydon at Castlebar Court today to amend the Christian name of the defendant named on the summons from a male to a female.

The solicitor for the defendant, Ms. Fiona Daly, objected to the application by the State to amend the summons brought before the court against the defendant under the Misuse of Drugs Act.

It was Ms. Daly's contention that the person, who was named on the summons, did not exist and any attempt to amend any summons would compromise that person's constitutional and human rights under the Gender Recognition Act.

Due to the sensitive nature of the case the court asked that the defendant not be named publicly.

The person had changed their named by deed poll in June of 2016 and had obtained a gender recognition certificate.

Superintendant Joe McKenna said the State would argue that this was one and the same person.

Judge Lydon adjourned the matter to the November 21 sitting of Castlebar District Court when evidence will be heard from the gardai of details provided by the person when they were arrested.

The defence's case is that that person no longer exists and therefore the prosecution should not and could not proceed as it would be a violation of the rights of the defendant under the Gender Recognition Act.

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/news/roundup/articles/2018/10/03/4162881-judge-to-consider-legal-points-in-mayo-case-involving-transgender-person/

AndrewJRenko · 10-02-2019 9:31pm

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Any comment about the Irish case ?

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/news/roundup/articles/2018/10/03/4162881-judge-to-consider-legal-points-in-mayo-case-involving-transgender-person/

Don't really have a whole lot to go on there, from those couple of articles. If someone is chancing their arm, well, it wouldn't be the first time that someone chanced their arm in Court to find a loophole. If there is a loophole, I'd guess it could be sorted fairly easily.

Seems like a fairly small problem in the context of the many other loopholes in our legal system, like the thousands of disqualified drivers who don't hand in their licences.

Again, I'm curious as to why some people are so determined to make a mountain out of a molehill on this particular issue.

Will I Am Not · 10-02-2019 9:45pm

AndrewJRenko · 10-02-2019 9:49pm

Will I Am Not wrote: »

That's a UK case, isn't it?

I am curious as to why some people seems so determined to import this particular controversy from the UK to Ireland.

Will I Am Not · 10-02-2019 9:52pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

That's a UK case, isn't it?

I am curious as to why some people seems so determined to import this particular controversy from the UK to Ireland.

This is a thread about Graham Linehan getting a warning from police in the UK or have I got the thread title wrong?

Franz Von Peppercorn · 10-02-2019 9:54pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Except for the scenario of the last three years of self-identification in Ireland where no female has lost anything out.

Says it all.

This thread is about Graham Linehan who was cautioned for a tweet .... in the U.K.

Hence reference to the U.K.

FTA69 · 10-02-2019 9:54pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

That's a UK case, isn't it?

I am curious as to why some people seems so determined to import this particular controversy from the UK to Ireland.

You’re not able to deal with the substance of the issue at hand so instead are resorting to “that’s the UK”. As if the issues discussed here won’t arise in Ireland at some stage.

ceadaoin. · 10-02-2019 9:56pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Again, I'm curious as to why some people are so determined to make a mountain out of a molehill on this particular issue.

Maybe because they don't see women being beaten by males in their own sports (including getting the **** kicked out of them), being locked up in prison with male sex offenders and being raped as a result, having their requests for intimate medical exams to be performed by a female ignored, and breastfeeding mothers being locked up for hours for a few tweets they made, as "molehills".

AndrewJRenko · 10-02-2019 10:21pm

Will I Am Not wrote: »

This is a thread about Graham Linehan getting a warning from police in the UK or have I got the thread title wrong?

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

This thread is about Graham Linehan who was cautioned for a tweet .... in the U.K.

Hence reference to the U.K.

True enough, though as demonstrated by the answers below, some people do seem to be very keen to highlight the tiny number of issues that have arisen in the UK as 'warnings' for Ireland.

It does seem fairly strange that people are focusing on these tiny number of cases on this very niche issue.

FTA69 wrote: »

You’re not able to deal with the substance of the issue at hand so instead are resorting to “that’s the UK”. As if the issues discussed here won’t arise in Ireland at some stage.

As I've explained to you before, Ireland is years ahead of the UK in dealing with this issue. We've had self-identification here for three years with no significant issues arising, while Glinner and the Mumsnet gang are off with their flaming torches to 'warn people' about the dangers of self-identification.

And while your 'not able to deal with the substance' claim is a tad harsh, there is some truth behind it. I certainly don't claim to have all the answers on the prison issues or sports issues or other issues that have arisen.

But I'm reasonably confident that those responsible for those areas, can (and very possibly are already) coping with those issues today, which is why we've had no significant issues arising here with three years of self-identification.

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Maybe because they don't see women being beaten by males in their own sports (including getting the **** kicked out of them), being locked up in prison with male sex offenders and being raped as a result, having their requests for intimate medical exams to be performed by a female ignored, and breastfeeding mothers being locked up for hours for a few tweets they made, as "molehills".

I suppose what doesn't add up for me is the obsessive focus on this particular niche issue. If you were really concerned about women getting raped, surely you'd be looking at the major causes/background to rape, which I presume would include drug addiction, alcohol, homelessness, gambling addiction, poor education and low self-esteem and more. In the overall context of sexual assaults on women, this is a tiny, niche issue.

It seems that some people are just uncomfortable with the whole idea of transgender people, and are using this opportunity to kick back.

Omackeral · 10-02-2019 10:37pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

That's a UK case, isn't it?

I am curious as to why some people seems so determined to import this particular controversy from the UK to Ireland.

That point is very interesting and harrowing, regardless of jurisdiction.

AndrewJRenko · 10-02-2019 10:54pm

Omackeral wrote: »

That point is very interesting and harrowing, regardless of jurisdiction.

About 3,000 women each week in the UK experience rape or attempted rape or assault by penetration.

Are these tiny number of incidents really that 'interesting' in the context of the overall problems of violence against women? Are they a bit of a distraction for anyone who is really concerned about solving violence against women?

AllForIt · 10-02-2019 11:02pm

I am totally against police time being taken up with investigating tweets unless they have the most sinister of nature for example death threats. Sustained one's at that.

If ppl don't wish to receive insulting or hurtful comments then don't put yourself in a position where your as good as inviting them.

Just like you wouldn't leave your front door wide open at night and expect not to be burgled.

I really hope what goes on in the UK regarding this issue does not transpire here.

ceadaoin. · 10-02-2019 11:06pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

About 3,000 women each week in the UK experience rape or attempted rape or assault by penetration.

Are these tiny number of incidents really that 'interesting' in the context of the overall problems of violence against women? Are they a bit of a distraction for anyone who is really concerned about solving violence against women?

It's not just about violence, it's about the erosion of women's sex based rights.

Graham Linehan given police warning for "transphobia"

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