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RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,579 ✭✭✭Mr McBoatface


    aidanh31 wrote: »
    Tv3 are available as we speak on Irish DTT .:confused: just checked yesterday evening and there they were. not sure if there just doing a test or if they are there for good ..:)

    Wrong forum for this question.... nobody seem to really know why they where not there to begin with, there where conflicting reasons from several sources. The honest answer probably is yes they will remain on DTT (but expect the to be gone at any moment);)

    The terrestrial forum for saorview questions is here - http://boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=56


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    I did say that if Ka-Sat launch goes OK, no Saorsat tests before Feb/Mar. Well I'm wrong, though according Eutelsat, two months (Dec 20th to Feb 20th, or early March) is normal period.

    Service expected in April 2011
    http://www.cbs8.com/Global/story.asp?S=13439002
    Eutelsat's KA-SAT is the first of a new generation of High Throughput Satellites in Europe. It is optimised for consumer broadband services and targeting users located beyond range of high-speed terrestrial networks. Fully-operating in Ka-band frequencies and with total throughput of over 70 Gigabits per second, the satellite will be located at Eutelsat's 9 degrees East position. Through a configuration of 82 spot beams and a ground infrastructure of ten gateways connected to the Internet, service will be provided across Europe and the Mediterranean Basin. In addition to supporting expansion of Eutelsat's TOOWAY(TM) consumer broadband service, KA-SAT will open new resources for telecom operators, broadcasters and ISPs, for data and video services.

    Estimated satellite launch schedule

    Satellite Estimated launch Transponders
    KA-SAT December 2010 > 80 Ka beams
    Note: Satellites generally enter into service one to two months after launch, KA-SAT, however, is expected to enter into service in April 2011
    via http://www.cbs8.com/Global/story.asp?S=13439002


  • Registered Users Posts: 149 ✭✭eh2010


    So does that mean saorview on satelite will be coming on air april 2011?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,636 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    watty wrote: »
    I did say that if Ka-Sat launch goes OK, no Saorsat tests before Feb/Mar. Well I'm wrong, though according Eutelsat, two months (Dec 20th to Feb 20th, or early March) is normal period.

    Service expected in April 2011

    If Ka-Sat is expected to go into service late March or early April, when do you think RTÉ could begin the uplink and downlink tests? If the tests don't begin until April how long before they could launch the full Saorsat service?

    Will they uplink to the satellite from the RTÉ campus or will they have to use one the 10 Eutelsat gateways? (unless of course Donnybrook is one of the 10)

    I assume consumer equipment will also have to be tested in conjunction with the pre-launch testing before it can be made available for purchase.

    On economies of scale how much could a Saorsat receiver and dish cost the consumer considering its primary market is just 2% of the Irish population plus NI plus west coast Britain (possibly)?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,336 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    Its existing technology so I doubt it


    The Cush wrote: »
    I

    I assume consumer equipment will also have to be tested in conjunction with the pre-launch testing before it can be made available for purchase.

    Desktop PC Boards discount code on https://www.satellite.ie/ is boards.ie



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    The Cush wrote: »
    If Ka-Sat is expected to go into service late March or early April, when do you think RTÉ could begin the uplink and downlink tests? If the tests don't begin until April how long before they could launch the full Saorsat service?

    Will they uplink to the satellite from the RTÉ campus or will they have to use one the 10 Eutelsat gateways? (unless of course Donnybrook is one of the 10)

    April :)

    RTE can have their own uplink as it's one-way, not two-way DVB-S2 + DOCSIS tooway traffic. However see http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056081234

    The Cush wrote: »
    I assume consumer equipment will also have to be tested in conjunction with the pre-launch testing before it can be made available for purchase.

    On economies of scale how much could a Saorsat receiver and dish cost the consumer considering its primary market is just 2% of the Irish population plus NI plus west coast Britain (possibly)?
    It's just a regular DVB-S2 HD receiver. It it has MHEG5, then it will be identical to Soarview.

    The Ka LNBF is just the same to install as Ku LNBF.

    The Tooway gear is well established and anyone getting Internet from eircom, SBI, Digiweb or Bentley walker only needs a sat IF splitter (€4) on the Modem receive coax to feed the regular HD DVB-T2 sat receiver. Only one polarisation and band used on a spot.

    A regular Triax feed bar and 80cm solid dish does work for 28E and 9E


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,636 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    watty wrote: »
    April :)

    Thanks for that watty.

    So they could begin testing once the satellite reaches its correct orbital position and be ready to launch Saorsat in April.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭FRIENDO


    A regular Triax feed bar and regular 80cm solid dish for 28E and 9E,
    I understand the above for Freesat and Saorsat.
    In relation to internet will this mean I can recieve Internet through 9E without a phone line coming into the house.
    Thanks


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,336 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    I doubt this would work


    FRIENDO wrote: »
    A regular Triax feed bar and regular 80cm solid dish for 28E and 9E,

    Desktop PC Boards discount code on https://www.satellite.ie/ is boards.ie



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭FRIENDO


    Thanks Tony,
    At the moment I have a zone 1 satellite for Freesat, so I can fit a new satellite for Saorsat.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Dish..

    The Satellites are 22,500 miles above the equator.

    A perforated Sky dish is no good for Ka.
    Zone 1 is too small for Ireland, except maybe Waterford.

    Satellite Internet is not a replacement for UPC, phone line Broadband or Metro
    . It has minimum latency of about 790ms. It's instead of unreliable 3G Mobile, VSAT (satellite two way) is only when real Broadband is not available. It uses a special dish/feed arrangement. Not a Triax dish and multifeed bar.

    If you Don't have Tooway Internet, just satellite TV:

    134102.png
    Sky/Freesat - - - Astra 19 -- Hotbird 13 - 9E
    All are Ku Quattro. The 9E needs swapped for a Ka-LNBF. A Ka-LNBF is smaller internally but can be in standard mount. (Ka is approx 1/2" waveguide instead of approx 3/4" waveguide of Ku)
    The 90/95cm Dish is aligned on 16E and Triax Multifeed bar is re-drilled about 1/3 distance to allow 28E further out.

    The LNBs feed a EMP-Centauri 16+1 in 16 out multiswitch. Ka will only need one feed to one Multiswitch input as all signals are same band and polarisation. Two of the remaining inputs of those four could be L & R or H &V of C-Band.

    No, the bush is not in the way, nor these trees (yet) :(
    134104.png

    (The motorised dish is 110cm Triax using Motek SG2100, many years ago from Tony, www.satellite.ie)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,636 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    FRIENDO wrote: »
    A regular Triax feed bar and regular 80cm solid dish for 28E and 9E,
    I understand the above for Freesat and Saorsat.
    In relation to internet will this mean I can recieve Internet through 9E without a phone line coming into the house.
    Thanks

    Ka-Sat will primarily provide a two-way broadband service over Europe with an appropriate dish/LNB and satellite modem without a phone line.

    Eircom are offering such a service (but its not cheap) - http://www.eircom.ie/cgi-bin/bvsm/bveircom/bladerunner/showContent.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@0119252257.1289171185@@@@&BV_EngineID=cccgadelmdmmiglcefeceiedffndffg.0&cid=BroadbandSatelliteRes&site=Res&chanId=-536889573
    Discussion here - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056081234

    A satellite broadband provider could also bundle the Saorsat service as part of a satellite broadband package.

    This from Conor Hayes last July
    Mr. Conor Hayes: No. DTT will not be able to provide broadband per se. We always argued with the commercial operators, such as the One Vision consortium, which included Eircom, that DTT allowed a triple play option. For example, the operator could go to my mother in Mitchelstown and provide her with telephone and broadband via landline, stick in a DTT box for television services and provide triple play on the one bill. This would have allowed commercial operators to compete with the satellite operators or UPC in Dublin.

    Our satellite option would operate on the Ka band as opposed to the Ka band. The Ka band is typically used for telecommunications purposes or contributions between broadcasters. The Ka band is used by the single largest pay television operator in the US, DirecTV, which uses it to deliver high definition television. It works on a consumer basis and is a proven product in weather conditions.

    People are offering satellite services over broadband. If one has a broadband service over satellite, one is capable of offering telephony or voice over IP, VoIP. If we are up there in the clear, some bright spark might offer people broadband, telephony and Irish channels - RTE, TG4, TV3 and so on - without their needing to spend much money.

    http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=MAJ20100714.xml&Node=H2&Page=3


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    However while so-called Satellite "Broadband" is much better than so-called Mobile "Broadband" on reliability, jitter, packet loss, always on, speed and controlled contention if a decent package, neither are Broadband (Satellite Latency too high for games/real time and awkward for VOIP/Skype), especially not Mobile. Mobile has the value of being Mobile.
    Different kinds of Internet Access: http://www.techtir.ie/forums/internet-faq
    (Imagine WiMax is almost unique being really a Mobile system, but disadvantaged by wrong band for Mobile and no National Licence, so some situations worse than 3G mobile and others better).

    Why even 21Mbps Mobile can be worse than 1Mbps DSL (phone line): http://www.techtir.ie/comms/mobile-vs-fixed
    Mobile is best (only solution) when you need Internet on the go.
    Satellite (VSAT) is best when there is no other broadband available. A better subsitute than Mobile and very like Broadband if you don't need VOIP/Skype or Gaming/Poker or eBay sniping.

    Ka-Sat is primarily designed for European, Middle East and North Africa Interent Use, with 1000x capacity of earlier VSAT systems. Largest capacity ever. It just happens to be launching at the "right time" for Irish Digital Television with a few things to make it cheapest ever platform for Irish FTA satellite TV.
    • About x10 to x20 inherently lower cost per Mbps of bandwidth (Price will not be so low
    • Irish dedicated spot, 80+ spots with polarisation/band reuse further limits coverage (solves rights issues, makes it cheap)
    • No Ku, so no demand for existing @9E TV platform makes it cheaper
    • A spot is all one polarity & Band making single LNB output distribution possible.
    • Prices aimed at competing with cheaper European Broadband, so TV carriage cheap.
    • Uses DVB-S2, so less MHz needed per Mbps of data
    • "Virtual Transponders", so can "create" two transponders with copy of terrestrial Mux MPEG-TS, allows for cheap DTT site backup and Community DTT, hotel and Apartment feeds converting via ASI from DVB-S2 to DVB-T with inexpensive off the shelf gear.
    • Allows very small boxed "dish" that doesn't look like a dish, for existing Sky or Freesat users, beating the "one dish rule"
    • Will actually work to edge of North East N.I., but essentially not in mainland UK at all (once French Spot ar Channel is active, before it is, large dish on UK West coast will work.)

    If it's successful, a similar opportunity may not exist for another 4 to 5 years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭channelsurfer2


    ok still a bit confused with the ka and ku etc having read all the posts...especially the disqeq switch thing and the point about the humax box being able to use it..will i still need someone to put another dish up or extra lnb on the sky dish to get saorsat? anychance of an FAQ thing for people like me who have some knowledge but are not familiar with the ins and outs?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    See http://www.techtir.ie/node/1003507#comment-1004334

    Already extensively discussed.

    A Sky dish can't even be used for a 2nd Ku LNB sensibly and can't really ever be used for Ka-Band. Just like many C-band dishes are not suitable for Ku-Band.


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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    watty wrote: »
    There is no prize, but can you name all the EU countries and overseas territories that are NOT in Europe Geographically?
    Again no prize but does anyone know which country has the southernmost point ?

    watty wrote: »
    Iceland may apply to join EU and is only place in Europe growing bananas. Ireland is a real banana republic, having at one stage been the biggest exporter in the world :)
    Actually we were the biggest manufacturers of bananas.




    dowtchaboy wrote: »
    Most of these are military bases. The most interesting one is probably Diego Garcia where they shamefully just shifted the inhabitants out and leased the place to the US Airforce.
    Most shameful thing from an Irish perspective about Diego is that Eircom used to have a Band 13 solely for there. Which makes no sense since the US military has their own comms and everyone else had been ejected from the island, The code was used for extortionate scam calls of which eircom got a very nice slice.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭FRIENDO


    If a satellite broadband service provider could bundle the Saorsat service as part of a satellite broadband package it would be good.

    I have no telephone line as Eircom would have to plant a number of new poles to reach my house, mobile broadband is slow in my location

    Saorsat/broadband could be a reasonably priced solution


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,336 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    what does any of this have to do with the thread topic?
    Again no prize but does anyone know which country has the southernmost point ?

    Desktop PC Boards discount code on https://www.satellite.ie/ is boards.ie



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,150 ✭✭✭Johnmb


    FRIENDO wrote: »
    I have no telephone line as Eircom would have to plant a number of new poles to reach my house, mobile broadband is slow in my location
    Surely that's Eircom's problem, not yours. They are the universal carrier, the extra money it would cost them to get you on the network is more than offset by the the fact that they can charge the same amount to people who live next to the exchange and it costs very little to hook up.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    Does anybody here have any idea about Ka-Sat LNBs? I wonder would a DirecTV Ka-Sat LNB from the United States work or are they on a propriety system? I have a 1 metre motorised dish and can pick up 9° East no problem on the KU Band. I have relatives that might be coming from the US for Christmas and I could get them to bring it (if it would work) saving me both shipping and VAT costs, as internal US shipping is less than $10. I'd like to begin receiving any KA tests or trials from day one with the plan to buy the Saorsat dish and receiver box later on whenever it hits the highstreet.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    No, DirecTV uses circular polarisations. 100% not suitable.

    You can use an LNB off a Tooway (US Wildblue, Tooway in Europe). It needs a little horn. I'll be publicising a solution before the time. Nothing to receive till April anyway.

    End December Launch
    Transfer orbit
    Clarke Belt positioning ( Jan)
    System testing (Feb/March)
    Operational (April)

    RTE don't get to put signals till the satellite is operational.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    19th November 2010 afternoon local time, was the Baikonur Cosmodrome in Kazakhstan, delivered by a European telecommunications satellite KA-SAT in preparation for the delivery of the Proton carrier rocket.

    Ka-Sat satellite was constructed by EADS Astrium on the basis of an order of French satellite operator Eutelsat Communications. The contract for delivery of the Ka-Sat satellite was signed with a Russian-American company International Launch Services (ILS).

    KA-SAT will be launched in December 2010. It's already the eighth mission Proton rocket this year.

    Ka-Sat will be more than 80 transponders with many links and it will be the latest satellite in the world. The satellite will serve to develop two-way Internet Tooway.

    The new satellite will be parked at the orbital position 9 ° E (originally planned at 13 ° E). The satellite was taken on the Eurostar E3000 platform. This is the 17th satellite, Eutelsat is manufactured with EADS Astrium.

    The life expectancy is 15 years.

    Russian-English web-translation.
    http://www.rbc.ru/rbcfreenews/20101119191728.shtml


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    ILS Ka-Sat blog is up and running.
    ILS wrote:
    KA-SAT Campaign Begins!

    Posted by ILS Launch Team, 4:20 p.m. EDT on 19 November 2010


    Welcome to the KA-SAT launch campaign blog. Let’s do it!

    We are in full swing here in Baikonur after saying goodbye to the SkyTerra 1 team and welcoming the KA-SAT main team on Wednesday. The weather has been mild thus far, with fog greeting us in the morning only to burn off by the afternoon, so we have beautiful sunsets and night skies full of stars.

    There has been a flurry of activity since the early team arrival on 11 November. Between managing the overlap with the SkyTerra 1 team and getting the KA-SAT campaign off the ground, we’ve definitely hit the ground running. Especially our Program Integrator, since it is her first time in Baikonur, there are lots of new stuff to learn.

    Khrunichev gave us a tour of Hall 111 to see the KA-SAT launch vehicle, and Dr. Bronfman, director of programs at Khrunichev, provided us with many good stories about the history of the Proton during the tour. On Thursday, we were able to see the launch vehicle before it went to testing. It’s quite a sight to see it in a horizontal position because of its massive size.

    The good news today is that the spacecraft arrived! It was a chilly, windy day out at the airfield, so strong that it could have knocked you over. It’s been a long day, and it’s not over yet. We’ll have the fitcheck either tomorrow or Sunday. These long days keep us busy.

    We’ve taken a break from BBQs, but we’ll have a big Thanksgiving celebration, complete with turkey and all the fixings. :-)

    http://www.ilslaunch.com/ka-sat-blog


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,636 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    This from today's Broadband TV News
    Eutelsat KA-SAT ready for take-off
    By Julian Clover
    Published: November 22, 2010 11.33 Europe/London

    Eutelsat’s latest satellite, KA-SAT, has been flown to the Baikonour Cosmodrome in Kazakhstan, ahead of its December 20 launch on board a Proton rocket.

    The Astrium-built satellite weighs in at 6.1 tonnes and will form the backbone of a new European infrastructure that includes eight main gateways and two back-up gateways located across Europe and connected to the Internet by a fibre backbone ring.

    Its total capacity of more than 70 Gbps makes KA-SAT one of the world’s most powerful spacecraft. In a statement, Eutelsat said Europe’s first High-Throughput Satellite (HTS) will usher in a new era of competitively-priced satellite-delivered services.

    “KA-SAT’s multi-spotbeam design, use of Ka-band frequencies and proven systems deployed in North America by our technology partner, ViaSat, will transform the volume of bandwidth available through a single satellite and the scope and economics for new services,” said Michel de Rosen, Eutelsat’s CEO. “With this pan-European infrastructure complementing our Ku-band resources that will be progressively expanded and modernised with six new satellites, Eutelsat is uniquely positioned to further push back the boundaries of satellite-delivered services across the markets we serve.”

    KA-SAT will have pan-European coverage and offer a platform suitable for data communications, local and regional broadcasting, IPTV and emerging video applications needing ultra high-bit rates such as HD digital cinema. It will also provide a powerful new infrastructure to support the take-up of Eutelsat’s Tooway broadband service

    http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2010/11/22/eutelsat-ka-sat-ready-for-take-off/
    .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 719 ✭✭✭12 element


    Apogee wrote: »
    ILS Ka-Sat blog is up and running.



    http://www.ilslaunch.com/ka-sat-blog


    Exciting stuff! Anyone planning on getting a KA-LNB early on for this, or is there any point?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    No point before April.

    I'll publish "simple to make" horn for a VSAT flange type ka-LNB in Feb/March.

    There is fixed polarisation on entire spot, so a fixed single polarisation rectangular feed will work.

    Unless you have a spectrum analyser and DVB-S2 BER meter, even the existing Ka you can pick up in Ireland from other positions have no TV, only data, so you have nothing for a receiver to see.

    see http://www.techtir.ie/how-to/make-sat-lnb-feed-horn

    I've run out of attachment space here!

    Probably I'll design it out of single sided PCB that can be easily cut and soldered, as that is easier than folds.

    But I'll test one made from lidl coffee tin cut with scissors and folded, as it's not very big.

    Then you pop a "flexible rubberish membrane" over the small horn to keep water and spiders out :)

    In days gone by the BBC OB people use to supply the RTE OB people... :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Astra vs Eutelsat Ka-band dispute continues

    Three weeks from now, just before the Christmas holiday, will see a Russian rocket launching Eutelsat’s Ka-Sat, a wonderful piece of satellite engineering complexity that will provide copious two-way broadband connectivity to Europe, North Africa and the Middle East. At 6.1 tonnes in weight it is one of the heaviest satellites ever launched and will be the backbone of Eutelsat’s bandwidth capacity expansion, especially in terms of internet access for the regions’ ‘unconnected’.

    But the satellite represents a major difference of view between Eutelsat and SES Astra. And the difference – politely – boiled over at a EuroConsult conference on Nov 24 in a platform discussion between Michel de Rosen, Eutelsat’s CEO, and Ferdinand Kayser, president of Astra. “Questions remain open on Ka-band,” Kayser said, explaining that its strategy was to add incremental Ka-band capacity to new satellites, as demand grew. “We are in the business of operating satellites that last for 15 years in orbit,” Kayser added. “We must be able to prove to our shareholders that these will be profitable each time we launch. We have been more prudent, or less courageous perhaps, than our competitor Eutelsat.”

    Mr de Rosen immediately interjected with an implied ‘No you haven’t!’, saying “That’s interesting, we think it’s you who are the most audacious, or courageous, by investing in a Ka-band constellation. It’s called O3b is it not?”

    De Rosen is right. While Astra’s philosophy on its European fleet has been to take a cautious approach to Ka-band capacity for broadband-by-satellite, it is nevertheless backing O3b, a low Earth orbiting satellite constellation designed to serve “the Other 3 billion” of unconnected people living more or less in the tropics in about 150 countries either side of the Equator – and representing 70% of the world’s population.

    Indeed, on November 26 investment bankers Morgan Stanley issued a note to investors suggesting an initial valuation of $4bn for the – as yet – unlaunched system – and saying that SES’ modest €150m stake in the project is worth about €3 a share for shareholders. “We expect initial demand for O3b’s Ka-band bandwidth to be very strong, particularly from telcos looking to extend 3G wireless coverage,” says the bank. “The last recorded backlog of $600m is now likely higher given several announced deals. We expect this to ramp up as the first launch in 2012 approaches. Given the provision of fibre is often prohibitively expensive O3b provides a low-cost (50-80% below current wholesale prices), faster and more practical solution for IP trunking.”

    It is, perhaps, a case of ‘you pays your money and takes your chance’. Eutelsat is backing its local market for this considerable expansion in available bandwidth, while SES is looking to participate in a significant expansion in its services and fresh coverage to new markets. Time will tell as to who’s vision is sound.
    http://www.advanced-television.tv/index.php/2010/11/26/astra-vs-eutelsat-ka-band-dispute-continues/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Astra famously pinched 28.2 from Eutelsat at Sky's suggestion. 28.2E was for Central Europe, never for UK & Ireland.

    Since SES-Astra and Eutelsat are the biggest pair of competitors in Europe and the past history a row isn't surprising.

    Also the Budget Astra2Connect Two Way Internet has turned out to be poorer strategy than Eutelsat/Viasat partnership on Tooway (13E has a test platform).

    Last night Avanti became a Satellite operator instead of just a reseller of Astra, Eutelsat and others with successful launch of Hylas-1, part funded by ESA and Miltary.
    Maybe about 1/10th of Ka-Sat capacity.
    HYLAS1map.jpg

    http://www.arianespace.com/news-mission-update/2010/739.asp

    http://www.techtir.ie/blog/watty/hylas-launch

    Note that other than as a Internet competitor and also using Ka-Band, Avanti's Hylas 1 is nothing to do with Ka-Sat or Saorsat. The UK/Ireland Ka-Band spots are too big for RTE. This also suggests that Internet capacity for Ireland is at best 1/2 of Ka-Sat and could be a lot less. We don't know the capacity of Hylas-1 Ka-spots.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1 hawhee


    Sorry to jump back a few months, but I was looking at getting one of those wavefrontier T55 dishes, to pick up 28E, 9E, and maybe a few others from the western seaboard. I followed a few of the earlier links to some german sites and was wondering if many of the advertised Wave Toroidal T55 dishes are actually replicas? I auto-translated something german tech review on the ciao.de link that said to beware that the replicas aren't up to specs (arcs and LNB spacings were mentioned). Would like to hear if there might be anything to be cautious about with getting these dishes? Thanks.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    You don't need a Wavefrontier for 9E to 28E. only for wider difference

    See
    http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/saorsat-reception/

    They are very heavy and expensive. Only worth it if you wanted 28E to 5W or similar, and you would need the T90 for that.

    A Triax bar on a Triax TD 78 or 88 or 90/95 is cheaper and fine for 9E + 28E.

    However, it's best to not spend any money on Saorsat till April and we know the Satellite is successfully launched and commissioned:
    Progress http://www.techtir.ie/blog/watty/ka-sat-countdown


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Dec. 19 Proton • KA-SAT
    Launch time: 2151 GMT (4:21 p.m. EST)
    Launch site: Baikonur Cosmodrome, Kazakhstan

    An International Launch Services Proton rocket with a Breeze M upper stage will deploy the KA-SAT communications satellite for Eutelsat to provide broadband Internet services to Europe. Delayed from November.

    http://spaceflightnow.com/tracking/index.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Khrunichev has completed the first cycle of Breeze M tests to make this Upper Stage available for rollout to the fueling shed where Breeze M’s high pressure tanks will be pressurized.

    The Breeze M unit was moved earlier today to the fueling area located in the immediate proximity to 92A-50. Tank pressurization is scheduled to begin tomorrow.

    Once fueling operations are completed, the Breeze M will be moved back to the ITF where it will be reinstalled on the test bed for the continuation of standalone check-outs.
    via http://www.ilslaunch.com/news-112510

    Also some discussion here http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1393535
    and here http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1298375


  • Registered Users Posts: 369 ✭✭weehamster


    Proton launch failure dooms Glonass navigation satellites
    err...not good. This will delay the Ka-Sat launch for a few months at least until they know exactly what happened. :(


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    weehamster wrote: »
    Proton launch failure dooms Glonass navigation satellites
    err...not good. This will delay the Ka-Sat launch for a few months at least until they know exactly what happened. :(

    Better it than the Ka-Sat itself, if Ka-Sat is a failure will RTE have to go FTV?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,336 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    Stinicker wrote: »
    Better it than the Ka-Sat itself, if Ka-Sat is a failure will RTE have to go FTV?

    No theres planty of time before anlogue switch off and RTE maintain this is only for the 2% of viewers who do not have terrestrial coverage.

    Desktop PC Boards discount code on https://www.satellite.ie/ is boards.ie



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    If Ka-Sat fails they will try again in late 2012 / early 2013, fine for RTE NL.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rlogue


    According to What Satellite RTE are yet to sign any contract with Eutelsat on Ka-Sat.

    Peculiar since there's been such a song and dance about Saorsat being on the 9E position.

    Would Eutelsat be now in a position where they can extract what they like from RTE?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,636 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    rlogue wrote: »
    According to What Satellite RTE are yet to sign any contract with Eutelsat on Ka-Sat.

    Peculiar since there's been such a song and dance about Saorsat being on the 9E position.

    Would Eutelsat be now in a position where they can extract what they like from RTE?

    The only thing I've read on What Satellite is "no deal for TV has yet been announced between RTÉ and Eutelsat".

    RTÉ have said very little about Saorsat since the 14th July last, in fact what they did announce would probably fit on an A4 page.

    A few things they did say publically is that Saorsat would not be available from 28 deg. East, Ireland will have dedicated Ka spot beam and a "hybrid" dish could be used to receive both Saorsat and freesat.

    I'd guess provisional contracts are in place and we'll see no official announcement from either party until the satellite is safely in position.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    http://www.techtir.ie/blog/watty/ka-sat-countdown

    SC fuel loading has commenced.

    No indication anywhere of pause in count down due to launch failure of the 3 GPS satellites.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Pity those GPS satellites ended up in the drink. Never rely on Satnav, you never know where you will end up.:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Russia Suspends All Proton Launches During Investigation

    PARIS — The head of Russia’s Roscosmos space agency on Dec. 7 said all launches of the Proton vehicle will be suspended until a board of inquiry has determined the cause of the Dec. 5 Proton failure, which destroyed three Glonass navigation satellites.

    In statements posted on the Roscosmos website following an interview with Russia’s Izvestia news service, Anatoli N. Perminov also said a demonstration model of the next generation of Glonass satellites will be put into operational service to offset the loss of the three earlier-generation spacecraft.

    The launch of the first Glonass-K satellite, now undergoing final testing at ISS Reshetnev in Krasnoyarsk, Russia, is scheduled later this month aboard a Soyuz rocket.

    Perminov said he hopes the inquiry board will return its conclusions by the end of this month, and perhaps even within two weeks.

    “Until we reach conclusions about the cause of the failure, Proton won’t be launched,” Perminov said. “We have one more launch of this rocket, with a foreign payload, on this year’s schedule.”

    An International Launch Services (ILS) Proton using a different upper stage than the one used for the failed Glonass launch is scheduled to launch the Ka-Sat consumer broadband satellite for Eutelsat of Paris late this month.

    International Launch Services on Dec. 7 released the following statement about its Ka-Sat launch preparations.

    "We expect to receive an interim [Proton failure] report in approximately one week that may include details on the respective performance of the Block DM-03 upper stage built and operated by RSC Energia and the three lower Proton M stages, all built and operated by Khrunichev Research and State Production Center, the majority owner of ILS. While the Proton M is a flight-proven configuration, this was a maiden flight of the Block DM-03 upper stage, which is a derivative of Energia’s Block DM-3.

    "The Ka-Sat satellite built by Astrium for Eutelsat is scheduled for launch on December 20 using the Proton M Breeze M launch vehicle. The Breeze M upper stage, like the Proton M stages, is built and operated by Khrunichev. The Ka-Sat satellite launch campaign continued with the completion of the spacecraft propellant loading yesterday, and the start of joint operations today with mating to the payload adapter system.

    "Further information will be provided on the status of the December 5 Proton M Block DM-03 GLONASS-M mission investigation as well as the upcoming ILS Proton Ka-Sat launch as soon as it becomes available," the statement concludes.


    Perminov said the Proton rocket, which for ILS launches uses the Breeze M upper stage and for some government launches uses the older Block DM stage, remains one of the world’s most reliable vehicles, with a 96 percent success rating. He noted that the Breeze M caused a Proton launch failure in 2008, and that the Block DM stage “has not had any problems … for almost 15 years. Proton DM has launched six Glonass satellites in 2010, and the injection accuracy was very high.”

    Perminov said the Dec. 5 launch used a Block DM with a newly modified, digital control system, and that this could be one focus of the board of inquiry. But he cautioned it was too soon to point to any single cause.

    After a major government investment to return the Glonass constellation to full service over Russian territory, and then to a global utility on par with the U.S. GPS navigation and timing constellation, the Glonass system now counts 20 operational satellites and two in-orbit spares, Perminov said. While only 18 operational satellites are needed for full Russian coverage, it takes 24 to provide a global service.

    With a Glonass-K satellite launching aboard a Soyuz vehicle with a Fregat upper stage from northern Russia’s Plesetsk spaceport in the coming weeks, and the integration of the two in-orbit spares, the constellation will have 23 operational spacecraft.

    ISS Reshtnev is completing another Glonass satellite, presumably a Glonass-K version, that Perminov said would be ready for launch in three or four months. The possibility of accelerating production of other Glonass satellites is under study, he said.

    http://www.spacenews.com/launch/101207-russia-suspends-proton-launches.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Failure of upper unit (not actual Proton) may have been programming problem

    Ka-Sat Countdown / procedures continuing
    Report due on 12th or 13th Dec.
    http://www.techtir.ie/blog/watty/ka-sat-countdown#comment-1004356
    see http://www.satnews.com


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 165 ✭✭dmm1000


    with such a major hardware and financial loss regarding the recent failed satellite launch attempt - do you think they will be extra dilligent and possibly end up rerunning their battery of tests over and over and doing extra checks before they go ahead with the upcoming Kasat / Saorsat launch - scheduled before Xmas - which might result in it being postponed until well into the New Year ?

    It looks like its all systems go so far though


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8 semper fidelis


    Hi. This is my first time to post here so please bear with me if I am doing it wrong. I am retired home from the US these past eighteen months. Although I was born and bred in Connemara I have spent most of my life in the States where I spent twenty years in the telecoms business the last ten being on satellite broadband/tv. I have not posted here before but I have been viewing all the posts on satellite stuff over the past twelve months as, being retired I need an interest to stop my brain from stagnating.
    The first thing that I find amazing about the forums here in Ireland is that quite a number of posters have their own commercial agendas which they are blatantly pushing. This would never be allowed in the forums in the States – the Moderators would intervene immediately. I have not seen any Moderator intervention here in Ireland at all.
    One guy runs a satellite shop and, as far as I can see he uses these forums as a marketing base for his products. Another guy has formed an installers association and is looking for members ( I hope that he can install better than he can spell ! ). His message is that the ordinary Joe who wants to buy a system should not deal with anybody unless they are a member of his association ie. more covert marketing.
    At least these guys are upfront about it and state their case openly.
    Then there are other guys who seem to have a covert marketing agenda which they push constantly on these forums. As I said before they would never get away with this in the States but I suppose good luck to them if they can do it here.
    As an example I would refer to a guy called Watty who seems to be the self styled Guru of these forums and seems to have an opinion on absolutely everything and these opinions seem to be accepted as Gospel truth by most of the people who frequent these forums.
    He may know the technical ins and outs of wireless but he sure as hell don’t know jack**** about satellite technology particularly KA band spot beam technology. As somebody who has worked at the cutting edge of this technology for the past four years in the States I like to think that I know what I am talking about.
    According to one of his recent posts Watty is a failed entrepreneur. According to himself he set up three enterprises which failed and he was involved in three others which also failed. In other words he struck out six times out of six ! On the basis that this guy seems to average about 3000 posts per year I don’t wonder at his businesses failing – he is spending too much time on theses forums and not enough time running his business ! How can a six times failed businessman hold forth and give advice to the rank and file ?
    It would appear that he is on some sort of a retainer to push certain products. During the past twelve months (perhaps longer but I can only speak for the time I have been looking at these posts ) he seems to have been pushing Digiweb very forcefully once anybody suggested getting satellite broadband installed. As far as I can remember some months ago another poster pulled him up on this very question as to how much he was being paid for pushing Digiweb products - does he work for Digiweb ? (by the way I don’t know who Digiweb are, whether they are good or bad - I only know that they seem to be getting loads of free publicity on these forums courtesy of this guy Watty! ).
    Then along came SaorSat and Watty really went to town.
    I have,nt been back in the country long enough to know who this guy Hayes is in the RTE mob. Is he one of the foot soldiers delivering his masters message or is he the Don ? If he is the Don then he must think that he is politically untouchable . Only someone with a lot of clout puts the boot into a Select Senate Committee (or whatever it is called over here) by telling them that the reason for the cock up resulting in the non provision of commercial DTT was themselves not allowing RTE to do it 5 years ago in the manner that RTE had requested. I am sure that politicians over here are no different than in the USA. They all have long memories and little black books and I would say that because of this Mr Hayes’ will be kinda stopped at where he is in the promotion ladder. Hayes on behalf of RTE came clean and said that they could not fulfil the remit as placed on them by the 2009 Broadcasting Act of bringing DTT to all the population in Ireland and that they were going to miss this target by about 2% of dwellings. When I said that he came clean this was not entirely true. In fact this is one of the areas in which I agree with Mr Watty. Looking at the network presently planned by RTE I would suggest that they are going to miss the target by about 15%.
    Hayes conceded that the last 2% was going to have to be served by a new type of free to air satellite system courtesy of a new KA Band satellite system with a spot beam directly over Ireland thus satisfying the rights holders of all the imported content on the basis that it would serve Ireland alone and would not extend into any other geographic region. This was an enormous load of horse**** but it seems that nobody on the Select Committee had the technical nous to challenge this ridiculous statement. Watty however was in like a flash with the statement that Hayes was talking horse**** and that all you would need in order to get reception in the UK was a bigger dish. Once again I agreed with Watty.
    But then a strange thing happened. Like St Paul on the road to Damascus Watty was converted ! Not alone was he converted to the Hayes brand of technological mumbo jumbo but he now obviously had a new patron – Eutelsat.
    Last week somebody posted that the Avanti KA Band satellite had a successful launch. Quick as a flash Watty was in with the comment that “the Avanti bird was a toy compared to KA Sat “. How does he know ? Has he seen both satellites ? As far as I can see from technical postings on other sites KA Sat weighs 6 tons. The Avanti bird weighs 3 tons. Not exactly a “toy” in comparison. Having cost these guys in the order of $200,000,000 to get it up there it is not toy money neither. Dont forget big is not always beautiful and definitely not always best.
    He is pushing Eutelsat so hard that one must assume that his deal with Digiweb is off and that a new deal has been struck with Eutelsat – or maybe he is good enough to have both deals going at the same time ! Nonetheless like St Paul he has seen the light. He has now come up with diagrams and pictures etc. to show that the beam over Ireland will in fact not go any further than Ireland. Obviously Eutelsat has provided him with the latest gem of information to the effect that the beam over Calais which is on the same frequency as the beam over Ireland will have it’s power turned up to the full so that it will reach the west coast of the UK and will block any transmission from the Irish beam reaching the shores of England. What a load of bolloney !
    Despite the fact that Mr Hayes did not mention who the proposed KA Band provider was going to be Mr Watty categorically insisted that it was going to be the Eutelsat bird called KA Sat and it would operate at an orbital position of 9 degrees east.
    As someone who has actually worked on the technology being used by Eutelsat (and not somebody who has learned about it from Wikipedia) I can state categorically that Watty’s/Eutelsat’s suggestions are pure and utter horse manure. Before I show how much methane is being created here I am still curious as to how Watty knows that it is Eutelsat who are in the frame here – have they told him ? Certainly this guy Hayes has not said who it is so why is Watty so adamant that it is Eutelsat ?
    Avanti are also in the KA Band business. My ancestors are part Italian and Avanti in Italian means “enter” or “come in” - what a stupid name to have for a telecommunications company ! Nonetheless they should be considered front runners as their KA Band spot beam satellite is , already in orbit. It is called Hylas 1 (if Avanti is a stupid name for a telco. who came up with this gem for the name of the satellite ? What does it mean ?) Anyway their bird is up and the Eutelsat bird still has to go up and on the basis that Eutelsat lost their last bird I guess they are sweating bricks at the moment when you take into account that instead of using the state of the art launch facilities at ArianSpace they are using the essentially out of date facilities of Soyuz. Obviously they feel that the Russian buying public need to be pandered to. By the same token I believe that their next launch is from China which will really give them lots of headaches bearing in mind the United States’ embargo on China. The bricks being passed by Eutelsat execs. must have trebled in size following last weekend’s debacle in Baikonur.
    Who represents Avanti in Ireland ? Why are’nt they kicking Watty’s ass and taking him to task over his “know it all” statements ? Then again maybe they are cleverer than anybody and they are the people who are dealing with RTE and they are sitting back smugly and saying nothing ?
    Now to get back to Watty’s “theories”. Wild Blue, whose technology Eutelsat are using have spot beams covering the USA. Each beam is about 300 miles in diameter. Beam sizes can be set larger but this has to be decided at design stage (about two years before launch) and cannot be changed thereafter. Looking at the “smarties” coloured map of the proposed KA Sat beams over Europe , Eutelsat beams are about 300 miles in diameter also.
    One of these beams covers the island of Ireland so straightaway RTE have problems with rights holders as, whether we like it or not, the Northern part of this island is designated as being part of the United Kingdom and with about 1.5 million people there, this would increase the amount that RTE pays for its imported shows by about 40%. This is based on the assumption that when RTE negotiated for the rights to these shows they probably used population figures that were about twenty years old and definitely only applied to the Republic. Coupled with that is the fact that, utilising a 2’ 0” dish the present “Irish” beam covers quite a lot of the west coast of the UK. Therefore it is not rocket science to work out that a person on the outskirts of London with a 3’ 0” dish will receive all the Irish broadcasts. Having worked in the States and seen how these guys operate close up I do not think that these rights holders will be remotely interested in the “Peace Process” as we call it and hands across the border to the extent that they will allow RTE to serve another 40% of population for free !
    Watty suggests that the beam over Calais is on the same frequency as the beam over Ireland and that the guys in Eutelsat are going to throw a switch and increase the power to this beam to such an extent that they can reach over to the west coast of the UK and thus block out any transmission from the Irish beam accessing the island of Great Britain. Is this guy on magic mushrooms or what ??? In the first instance the Irish beam is going to be on maximum power at almost all times. In case you guys have forgotten when it rains in Ireland it damn well rains and this occurs for quite a large portion of the year so it is maximum settings on the Irish beam for at least 75% of the time. This results in the beam access reaching as far as middle England without any increase in dish size. By increasing the dish size this would mean that the whole of England and Wales and almost all of Scotland would be covered. But wait ! – what about Watty’s theory about turning up the power on the French beam ?? Let us see this for what it is – utter and absolute bolloney for the following reasons. The power addition is limited to about 40% so an increase of power on the French beam would just about reach London no more and if by some miracle it managed to drive further it would meet the equally upsurged Irish beam somewhere in middle England.
    If, for a moment we go back into fantasy land with Mr Watty’s theory and assume that Eutelsat could wave a magic wand and power up the French beam to such an extent that it could go as far as the Island of Anglesey and stop the Irish beam from reaching what the Brits euphemistically call “the mainland” we must also look at where else it would go. Watty is suggesting to us that Eutelsat can create a beam which is almost 1,000 miles in diameter. From personal experience I know that this is horse’s ass territory but as we are approaching Christmas let us assume that Santa Clause has weaved his magic and they can create a 1,000 mile diameter beam which can crush the Irish beam – what happens to the other side of this gigantic beam ? Those of you who would not consider yourselves “techies” but who scraped maths in your Leaving pay attention ! In order to reach the British west coast from northern France this enormous beam will also completely cover France, Belgium, Holland, Switzerland, a goodly part of Germany, Northern Spain, Northern Italy and other places that my geography is not good enough to name ! But there’s more !
    The beam that covers Ireland is a ****ty yellowy green colour indicating a particular frequency. This colour is repeated in the beam over northern Spain and also in the beam over northern Italy as well as the above mentioned beam over northern France. In my opinion the Basques will be pretty pissed off to find that their access to this great new technology has been knackered due to the fact that RTE want to serve 2% of us culchies in the west of Ireland and Eutelsat have jacked up the power in the French beam in order to do so and have thereby cut them off. More importantly I think is the beam over Turin which is the home town of Eutelsat . It is also going to be rendered ineffective by this powerful French beam so that the local Italians (many of whom probably work with Eutelsat) are not going to reap the benefits of this new technology either for the same reason. Tsk. Tsk. O the fairy tales of Ireland.
    The laws of physics are such that a circular beam when enlarged by whatever means possible will expand in equal proportions in all directions simultaneously.
    Lets face it – Watty’s theory is a load of crud pure and simple.
    I forget to state – I don’t work for Avanti or for any telco. in Ireland. Having been surrounded by loudmouths in the States for more years than I care to remember I don’t want to see that emerging here in Ireland and I don’t want to see a small company getting buried by the resources of a large conglomerate. I have seen too much of that in the States.
    As I said before – where are the guys from Avanti ? Why are you not in there fighting your corner ? Or is the fight over already and we don’t know about it ??
    I have just looked back on the size of this post – it shows what you can do when you have plenty of time on your hands ! Sorry about that guys.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭Kotek Besar


    tltr.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭dowtchaboy


    I have just looked back on the size of this post – it shows what you can do when you have plenty of time on your hands ! Sorry about that guys.[/FONT][/SIZE]
    So - if you have that much time on your hands, who not contribute to this and other fora where your apparent expertise and (real?) experience would be appreciated?
    By contribute I mean contribute, not rant. Watty contributes, whatever his secret agenda.....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,579 ✭✭✭Mr McBoatface


    @ semper fidelis. Regarding the technical nature of some of the matters under discussion here, you obviously have different opinions than other users of this forum and while your knowledge and opinion may or may not be valid your opinions are discredited when you launch personal attacks on members.

    Regarding commercial users on this forum of which there are a number they provide free advise and do not actively promote themselves. I for one think they add greatly to the forum and the forum is a better place for having them here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,711 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    Wow... this thread is about to go DEFCON 1 (or 5) - whichever is the bad one!


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