Central Heating controls

03-07-2014 1:48pm

Robbie.G wrote: »

Personally i put the main isolator where ever the MVs are.If they are in the hotpress I fit the spur there and then fit a 3 pole isolator (fan type) at the boiler that way whoever is working at system has local isolation at the points that's needed

Ye but you understand the risks involved and you don't like walk up and down stairs where's I'd put up the exersise if every job had the spur in the one place, having worked in a environment where wiring was regimented as well as the plumbing life is easyer when things are where there supposed to be.

When you think about how many 7 foot roomstats there are I think there's a lot said for going back to basics get the spur right then start taking about extra isolation?

03-07-2014 1:53pm

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

local isolation of mv's is covered by et101

your installation won't pass inspection regardless of what you believe about 1 heating system isolator beside boiler

Well have to agree to differ but doing it your way has led to thousands of dangerious installs that may meet your criteria but most electricians have no perception of the risks there taking and if they do then that's criminal.

mikeyjames9 · 03-07-2014 1:58pm

gary71 wrote: »

Well have to agree to differ but doing it your way has led to thousands of dangerious installs that may meet your criteria but most electricians have no perception of the risks there taking and if they do then that's criminal.

the only thing criminal on this thread is the amount of waffle in your posts

03-07-2014 2:06pm

I think all of this will change, I checked the heating wiring procedure across the water and installers now have to meet the same level of testing as if a sparks was certifying it ie.. IR and EFLI, the EFLI must be done before and after any fault finding on boilers, what happens over there finds it's way here so if it ever became common place for non sparks to wire heating systems I would expect a electrical minor works training process to follow.

Now if I'm honest I do very little wiring if any, mostly I beg sparks to fit the spurs under the boiler or I'm identifying wiring issues so I'm not as relevant as I used to be, the one thing I have learnt is only sparks can wire boilers in wet rooms which I didn't know before now, so happily every days a learning day.

mikeyjames9 · 03-07-2014 2:11pm

gary71 wrote: »

I think all of this will change, I checked the heating wiring procedure across the water and installers now have to meet the same level of testing as if a sparks was certifying it ie.. IR and EFLI, the EFLI must be done before and after any fault finding on boilers

of course they have to test cabling

the only person who believes heating control wiring is exempt from testing is yourself

I doubt you would be able to produce any evidence to substantiate your claims either

03-07-2014 2:21pm

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

the only thing criminal on this thread is the amount of waffle in your posts

O dear another electrical relationship down the drain:( and I thought we had a chance of greater understanding, so you could be a better sparks at work you never do and kind of mix up with oil (easily done;))

Now it may be waffle but as with gas the manufactures instructions can take precedents over gas regs, so rightly or wrongly I represent the manufacture.

03-07-2014 2:31pm

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

of course they have to test cabling

the only person who believes heating control wiring is exempt from testing is yourself

I doubt you would be able to produce any evidence to substantiate your claims either

Jesus, Mary and Joseph and all the holy saints, I don't have to prove anything, I'm working to my own gas regs put in place by the CER I know I can waffle a bit but I know my own regs.

Again as there are very, very very few RGI's wiring so this is kind of pointless I'm more interested in improving heating wiring and design which is brutal and as i'v been doing it for nearly 30 years even I can pick up a few things and pass them on to those who have only done a couple of jobs.

Now i'v just got this text:CER have issued the consultation paper on the regulation of Gas Industry with respect to safety from 2016. Paper can be viewed on RGII website. Rgds, RGII

So I have to go and check it incase it says "RGIs can feck off and stop wiring"

03-07-2014 2:39pm

Wow, that power, they must of been reading this tread:http://www.cer.ie/docs/000969/CER14131%20-%20Consultation%20on%20the%20Regulation%20of%20the%20Gas%20Installer%20Industry%20with%20Respect%20to%20Safety.pdf

"When looking at the relevance of this craft certificate it is worth noting that if an individual is using tools to remove the cover from a boiler and then works on the wiring associated with that boiler, they must be registered with the Gas SSB."

Sir Arthur Daley · 03-07-2014 3:01pm

Its very evident that alot have issues with RGI installers and the way RGII is ran. The CER has appointed The Register of Gas Installers of Ireland (R.G.I.I.) as The Gas Safety Supervisory Body (GSSB). If people think the pratices are nonsense and dangerous and what ever else then its down to the CER to answer and speak up.
To Mod 2011 you mentioned that you have emailed the CER this was in post #178, do you mind sharing what you emailed them and what replies you have got? I feel this is strongly relevant here as it the CER who needs to provide answers.

Sir Arthur Daley · 03-07-2014 3:16pm

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

you're talking nonsense again

You said and i quote,

I have worked on different systems occasionally with full sets of drawings and the boiler isolator only isolates the supply to the boiler

Its very unlikely drawings on every job that you claim you wired were incorrect, I proved you wrong on this, its obvious you made that up. How is having the isolater beside the boiler isolating the power to boiler and control nonsence?

mikeyjames9 · 03-07-2014 4:21pm

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

You said and i quote,

Its very unlikely drawings on every job that you claim you wired were incorrect, I proved you wrong on this, its obvious you made that up. How is having the isolater beside the boiler isolating the power to boiler and control nonsence?

I don't know anything about gas.. or gas boiler installs

the CER are going to say all the gas control wiring must comply with ET101:2008

it's part of the electrical installation

it's common practice to test it separately with the spur off

a competent electrician will know that installed cables must be IR tested

mikeyjames9 · 03-07-2014 4:21pm

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

You said and i quote,

Its very unlikely drawings on every job that you claim you wired were incorrect, I proved you wrong on this, its obvious you made that up. How is having the isolater beside the boiler isolating the power to boiler and control nonsence?

I don't know anything about gas.. or gas boiler installs

the CER are going to say all the gas control wiring must comply with ET101:2008

it's part of the electrical installation

it's common practice to test it separately with the spur off

a competent electrician will know that installed cables must be IR tested

Sir Arthur Daley · 03-07-2014 4:24pm

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

I don't know anything about gas.. or gas boiler installs

So you invented that story about working on heating jobs with working drawings as now you are declaring you nothing about gas installs.

03-07-2014 8:29pm

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

To Mod 2011 you mentioned that you have emailed the CER this was in post #178, do you mind sharing what you emailed them and what replies you have got? I feel this is strongly relevant here as it the CER who needs to provide answers.

I have received 2 emails from CER which state their position on this very clearly.
I will post these today or tomorrow.

The ETCI are going to send me something too, but not for 2 weeks.

Difficult to do this now as I am on my iPhone.

I also had a long & interesting chat with Gary71.
I think it would be fair to say that we are singing from the same hymn sheet now.

Watch this space.....:D

Robbie.G · 03-07-2014 8:42pm

gary71 wrote: »

Ye but you understand the risks involved and you don't like walk up and down stairs where's I'd put up the exersise if every job had the spur in the one place, having worked in a environment where wiring was regimented as well as the plumbing life is easyer when things are where there supposed to be.

When you think about how many 7 foot roomstats there are I think there's a lot said for going back to basics get the spur right then start taking about extra isolation?

I'm not talking about gas installs specificly all heating controls have to have local isolation so if the spur is at the boiler and the MVs are in the hotpress upstairs how do you achieve local isolation.My way is mains to position of MVs that way MVs are locally isolated and also the wiring centre and then if your working on boiler you have the 3 pole switch there that way it's foolproof and complies with all regs.

Robbie.G · 03-07-2014 8:44pm

shane 007 wrote: »

The isolator at the MV would also have to kill both lives & neutral though as if at a later date an unsuspecting person could assume that isolator will kill the permanent & the switched live and not bother switch off the main isolator at the boiler.
Whilst working on it, the boiler switches on from programmed time & the MV becomes live at the brown.

It could lead to assumptions from unsuspecting person, but if the isolator killed all lives & the neutral, I don't see an issue with it.

At the MVs is the spur so complete isolation is achieved.then the boiler has local isolation through a 3 pole switch.
This is for gas and oil it doesn't matter the fuel source the wiring is still the same

mikeyjames9 · 03-07-2014 9:14pm

Robbie.G wrote: »

At the MVs is the spur so complete isolation is achieved.then the boiler has local isolation through a 3 pole switch.
This is for gas and oil it doesn't matter the fuel source the wiring is still the same

I have wired oil systems that way

5amp switched spur at the wiring centre and mv's
3 pole isolation at boiler

I have also worked on geothermal with full drawings
the boiler has a couple of screened volt-free inputs from a controller and a mains supply

the controls weren't wired from the boiler isolator

the volt frees are on a connector

it's not live you just pull it out if you're not an idiot

03-07-2014 9:34pm

Robbie.G wrote: »

I'm not talking about gas installs specificly all heating controls have to have local isolation so if the spur is at the boiler and the MVs are in the hotpress upstairs how do you achieve local isolation.My way is mains to position of MVs that way MVs are locally isolated and also the wiring centre and then if your working on boiler you have the 3 pole switch there that way it's foolproof and complies with all regs.

It comes down to my training(without me sounding like a arse), im trained with gas installs to start my wiring from the switchable fused spur at the boiler(and nowhere else) which was my UK industry standard(but that might of changed now all gas fitters have meggers:))

As the boiler is the most likely place you'll be standing to turn on and off the electricity whilst fault finding other than that if you have to work on the external controls its only a flight of stairs.

This means any house i walk in to in the UK 99% of the time will have one isolation point beside the gas boiler and every customer knows where the boiler is, i cant tell you how little drama there is when everything is uniform.

Now since working in Ireland iv been introduced to the great game of find the spur and when i do find it there could be another one and not only that its not a switch but a fuse holder and a neon.

So i find the boiler local isolation and guess what theres still power coming into the boiler from the external controls from the 240v on the auxiliary(which nearly killed me:o), this cannot happen with just a spur beside the boiler.

Now Robbie i know your very good at what you do but local isolation for zone valves is alien to me but if it was wired the way you do it i'd have to be a right heating nerd to start bitching about it, but how often do you see installs that have well positioned spurs and local isolation clearly identified.

i promise you life is much simpler when everything is in one place even if i did go up and down the stairs more often but id happily take well wired and well marked spurs how ever many you want to fit:D.

03-07-2014 9:49pm

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

To Mod 2011 you mentioned that you have emailed the CER this was in post #178, do you mind sharing what you emailed them and what replies you have got? I feel this is strongly relevant here as it the CER who needs to provide answers.

I have copied and pasted the email correspondence in full (apart from the removal of names). Following my chat with Gary71 I think that he will acknowledge that he was as surprised as me about some parts of the replies, in particular the fact that no electrical tests whatsoever are required for any of the electrical wiring downstream of the spur outlet

Here is the 1st email I sent:

Hi,

I have read the "Decision on the Scope of Restricted Electrical Works" document (CER/13/147).
I understand that certain work will remain outside the scope of Restricted Electrical Works and as such does not need to be completed by a Registered Electrical Contractor.
However I am not clear on exactly where the line is drawn.

In my role as a moderator on an electrical forum this is something that crops up regularly, so I would be grateful if some clarification could be provided.
I am not an electrical contractor, and I do not work on my tools, so I have no axe to grind.
I work in an E & I design role for a large engineering consultancy.

In the following examples I would be grateful if you could confirm if a Registered Electrical Contractor is required to carry out the work described:

The installation of heating controls downstream of a spur outlet. This would include a mains voltage stat downstairs, upstairs, on the hot water tank, 3 zone valves (generally in the hot-press), a three channel time clock, all associated cabling and connection to the boiler itself. I have attached a wiring diagram that shows a wiring arrangement. Would a registered gas installer be permitted to install this?
The addition of several sockets to an existing socket circuit.
The installation of electric gates and all associated cabling by feeding them from an existing circuit in a house. Typically these require 2 no. single phase motors, a control panel and various ELV control wiring, photocells etc.
Installation of several security lights all fed from existing circuits.

In the above examples no circuits have been overloaded, all work has been carried out by a competent person such as a registered gas installer or an alarm installer (but not a qualified electrician), the cover has not been removed from the distribution board.
It would seem to me that an ETCI completion certificate should be a requirement for all of the examples I have given above.

If it would suit better perhaps there is someone that I could talk to on the phone?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Many thanks.

Regards,

2011

Here is the reply to the 1st email I sent:

Dear Mr 2011,

Thank you for contacting the Commission for Energy Regulation.

Please see below answers to your queries in red.

The installation of heating controls downstream of a spur outlet. This would include a mains voltage stat downstairs, upstairs, on the hot water tank, 3 zone valves (generally in the hot-press), a three channel time clock, all associated cabling and connection to the boiler itself. I have attached a wiring diagram that shows a wiring arrangement. Would a registered gas installer be permitted to install this?
Answer

If a new/clean circuit is required for these controls then this would fall under Restricted Electrical Works (REW) and can only be completed by a REC, however, the rules, that these systems are installed to, (IS813 and manufactures recommendations) state for an existing premises, a circuit may be spurred off a local suitable circuit. Under our definition of Restricted Electrical Works, minor electrical works are exempt as set out in CER/13/147 decision paper, see section 2.5. This means Non-RECs may carry out minor electrical works which would be spurring off an existing circuit to provide for heating controls if completing in an existing system. For new premises, at a minimum, the clean spur outlet for the heating system would be required to be installed by a REC.

The query was raised of the electrical competence of RGI installers with industry and I witnessed that as part of their training, initial assessment and ongoing competency they are required to install, test, fault find, have a functioning system and describe the operation of these controls before they pass that stage of the assessment and therefore we are satisfied with RGI installers level of knowledge in this area once they pass the assessments.

If the installers complete the above associated electrics then they by default are signing off on that part of the electrics of the installation through the issuance of their own certificates and hence the REC can note the exclusion of same on his certificate.

The addition of several sockets to an existing socket circuit. ?
Answer

one accessory off a radial circuit is allowed under minor works as per decision paper CER/13/147.

The installation of electric gates and all associated cabling by feeding them from an existing circuit in a house. Typically these require 2 no. single phase motors, a control panel and various ELV control wiring, photocells etc.
Answer

If a new/clean circuit is required for this system then this would fall under Restricted Electrical Works (REW) and can only legally be completed by a REC, however, the rules, that these systems are installed to, (ET101 and manufactures recommendations) state the specific requirements for an new and existing premises, a circuit may be spurred off a local suitable circuit by a Non-REC if deemed appropriate.

Installation of several security lights all fed from existing circuits.
Answer

one accessory off a radial circuit is allowed under minor works as per decision paper CER/13/147.

If you have any other queries please do not hesitate to contact us.

Yours sincerely,

<Someone at CER>

Here is the 2nd email I sent:

Hi,

Thank you for your reply, it has been a great help.
I get asked these questions regularly.

I would be grateful if you could provide further clarification by answering the following:

1) I understand that on a domestic electrical installation a Registered Gas Installer (RGI) can wire all of the heating controls that are downstream of a spur outlet that has been installed by a Registered Electrical Contractor (REC).
My question is does this apply in all cases regardless of the amount of wiring and number of devices required for heating controls of a single domestic installation? For example in a large house with a modern under floor heating system there can be 12 actuated valves, 12 stats, a circulation pump, a boiler, a 4 channel time-clock and depending on cable runs literally hundreds of meters of mains voltage cabling. Would this still be considered minor electrical works on the basis that it is downstream of a spur outlet and could therefore be installed by a RGI? I am trying to determine where the cut off point is in terms of minor electrical works. I see more and more houses with complex heating controls.

2) In terms of testing and certification of heating controls that are downstream of a spur outlet (again installed by a REC) what electrical tests are required? For example is an insulation resistance test, earth fault loop impedance test required? Is it a requirement for the RGI to have passed the City & Guilds 2407 Electrical Testing and Verification course?

3) What electrical test documentation would need to be submitted for the controls of a heating installation as described in no. 1 above? What electrical tests would be recorded on this documentation? Can all of this be done by an RGI?

Many thanks for your assistance.
I want to be sure that the answers that I give are correct.

Regards,

2011

Here is the reply to the 2nd email I sent:

Dear Mr 2011,
As discussed earlier here are the answers to your questions and <the name of senior person in CER> will be in contact with you early next week.

1) Answer - The concept is that a REC installs the original circuit, protection, accessories, tests and certify the installation of a spur, thus signing a declaration to state the circuit was installed and tested in line with ET101. Downstream of the spur is minor works and therefore Non- RECs are entitled to carry out these works as per decision paper CER/13/147. CER are of the opinion that once the correct overload protection and cable size is installed the circuit will operate to a safe manner. If a circuit leaks or becomes overloaded downstream of the spur then the associated protective devices should activate appropriately.

2) Answer - As outline above Non-RECs may carry out these works downstream of the spur and hence there is no mandatory requirements for Non-RECS to test and certify these works.

3) Answer - None, under the electrical regulatory scheme if carried out by a Non-REC, however this does not include manufactures requirements. As outline above Non-RECs may carry out these works downstream of the spur and hence there is no mandatory requirements for Non-RECS to test or certify these works. It is envisaged that from the distribution board to the spur outlet would have been tested and certified by a REC prior to a Non-REC carrying out works downstream of spur.

Yours sincerely,

<Someone else at CER>

So there you go

Clearly I did not edit/change/delete any part of the correspondence to support my argument, it is what it is.

mikeyjames9 · 03-07-2014 10:02pm

interesting but probably not the final word on the matter

Bruthal · 03-07-2014 10:11pm

So for heating control, protective devices will allow enough safety for a diy man to install as much wiring as a DIY man likes.

Yet add in sockets and the same criteria doesn't apply.

Curious.

esox28 · 04-07-2014 12:39am

Bruthal wrote: »

So for heating control, protective devices will allow enough safety for a diy man to install as much wiring as a DIY man likes.

Yet add in sockets and the same criteria doesn't apply.

Curious.

Nothing about diy read it again

04-07-2014 12:56am

Personally I think the level of electrical testing should be decided upon by electrical experts and heating design and system controllability should be decided upon by heating engineers, once standards have been agreed by both parties then only decent training stands in the way of bridging the gap between the two trades.

if there is to be electricians working as RGIs in respect of wiring they will have to be trained to fill in that skills gaps they may have or risk making a mistake and visa versa for currant RGIs that may want to do wiring:eek:.

Now until then as there is no testing requirement I'm going to stop doing any of the tests I posted earlier that so upset Micky"I don't do gas"james and I'm off to start testing with just my phase tester cos I like the pretty lights.

Bruthal · 04-07-2014 8:54am

esox28 wrote: »

Nothing about diy read it again

Non electrical qualified personnel installing 230 volt wiring.

But clearly you missed the point.

They state the protective devices up to spur render any wiring and devices installed later, as now safe.

Yet if a qualified non rec electrician tries the same with Lights, it is deemed not safe.

mikeyjames9 · 04-07-2014 1:43pm

it's opened a can of worms now if they're saying you can do what you like after the spur

low IR, nail through heating cable

trip rcd

who cares it's only gas heating

are they also saying you can spur off for an outbuilding or garden lites and don't bother testing anything?

either they're flat out wrong in their interpretation of what's a acceptable spur and testing or this loophole will have to be closed off now that it's out in the open

04-07-2014 2:04pm

For those that are not satisifed with the direction that CER have taken do something about it.
More decisions are about to be made! If you work in the electrical industry this will impact on you.

Submissions to CER must be made by the 25th of July.
See link:

http://www.cer.ie/docs/000968/CER14130%20-%20Regulation%20of%20Electrical%20Contractors%20with%20Respect%20to%20Safety%20Consultation%20Paper.pdf

mikeyjames9 · 04-07-2014 7:32pm

Can someone summarize the CER response on spurs

are they saying anything after a spur is minor work?
example: garden lites and outbuildings

or just gas installs?

Sir Arthur Daley · 04-07-2014 7:33pm

Bruthal wrote: »

.

They state the protective devices up to spur render any wiring and devices installed later, as now safe.

You have missed the point also, in the email the CER reply said "If a circuit leaks or becomes overloaded downstream of the spur then the associated protective devices should activate appropriately".
I have the word "should" in bold because its up to who ever installs and energises the circuit to make sure its electrically safe and compliant.
Do you think for one minute if a case in court found a person who did an oil boiler heating system install and made a fatal error which results in a fatality that he could stand up in court and say oh the CER said the protective devices up to spur render any wiring and devices installed later, as now safe.

Bruthal · 04-07-2014 8:12pm

:cool:

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

You have missed the point also, in the email the CER reply said "If a circuit leaks or becomes overloaded downstream of the spur then the associated protective devices should activate appropriately".
I have the word "should" in bold because its up to who ever installs and energises the circuit to make sure its electrically safe and compliant.
Do you think for one minute if a case in court found a person who did an oil boiler heating system install and made a fatal error which results in a fatality that he could stand up in court and say oh the CER said the protective devices up to spur render any wiring and devices installed later, as now safe.

All of that can be said of adding in a few more sockets. Or a load of garden Lights.

Sir Arthur Daley · 04-07-2014 9:43pm

Bruthal wrote: »

:cool:
All of that can be said of adding in a few more sockets. Or a load of garden Lights.

I was debating the awareness of one responsibility for a safe installation, are you referring back to the disagreement you have with restricted works?

Central Heating controls

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