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As a slight aside, but I would expect an engineer to have at least a Level 7 degree, or they should not be calling themselves one.
That's something I would imagine very few "heating engineers" have.
Wow i'v not heard that before:eek:.
I do love the qualification snobbery that appears when the term engineer is used in this country like people have run out of much more important things to get their knickers in a twist over, I really don't get it
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I am a blue collar worker:cool: and proud to be so, gas engineer, heating engineer, oil engineer, train engineer, photo copier engineer, telephone engineer, lift engineer there's loads, the idea of going up to one while wagging a finger and needing to mention "your not a real engineers you know" is laughable:pac::pac:.
There's enough spoofers in this country pretending to have qualifications without picking on those who's qualifications you just don't understand.
Er... Just to clarify(for the concerned masses)heating engineers are not the same as engineers who are much much better at spelling, maths and stuff.0 -
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It does beg the question as to why these people call themselves engineers when generally, they are not, though, does it not?
Really who cares I call myself a engineer because it's what it said on my City and Guilds trade cert after my four year apprenticeship and 65 million other people understand it quite happily with not a hint of confusion and never a finger wagged.
I never thought twice about the term until I moved to Ireland where I met people like yourself (usually in pubs)who seem to put a lot of effort in to being offended by myself using the term engineer when I don't even have a briefcase:eek.
What we have here is a cultural difference with a lack of any interest in understanding those differences.
Now it's always nice when I meet others who can through dialogue at least have the ability to understand those cultural differences(even if they don't agree) but those who wish to wag a finger can wag off;)0 -
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Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭
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That's more what I mean.
You get architectural technicians often passing themselves off as architects despite not having done the 5 years in college to become an architect.
You get the pretty handy handy-man passing himself off as a plumber/electrician despite not having done the 4 year apprenticeship.
You get the completely unqualified Joe-Soap passing himself off as a painter/mechanic etc despite not an ounce of training.
You have tv installers calling themselves engineers without a day's training ever.
Agreed.
We had a guy come to our office to fix the coffee machine, he called himself an engineer too, I guess he was a "coffee engineer"
I would agree that people that have completed the City and Guilds trade cert as part of four year apprenticeship (that Gary did) have the adequate training to do this work.
However as people with this trade simply do not exist in this country there is no point in pretending that employing these people to do this work is a solution.
Nobody can deny that the standard of plumbing evident is so many Celtic Tiger homes is appalling.
At present one of the plumbers that contributed to this mess can become a RGI in just 10 days and wire an unlimited amount of heating controls at mains voltage :eek:
In my view this is madness.
If they can't plumb a simple home after a four year apprenticeship for the love of God don't let them near electricity!
That is not to say that there are not some excellent plumbers out there, because there are.
However I imagine that they would take exception to electricians completing a 10 day course and suggesting that they can do aspects plumbing work to a higher standard than plumbers.
My concern is that all trades are being dumbed down.
The highly skilled "old school" tradesmen are being lost and are not being replaced.
We have people that are like Swiss Army knives: They can do a little of everything, but nothing right
The result is that we all end up settling for mediocrity with everything.
There was a time when a home was plumbed in copper piping with soldered joints, now it is badly installed Qualpex thrown around the place with push together joints that leak.
Woodwork throughout a home was completed by skilled carpenters, now it is completed by labourers using countless tubes of filler.
Even painting was a trade. There are not many qualified painters anymore and the results are there to be seen.
People with no real qualifications became builders.
Regulations ignored everywhere.
All of this contributed to situations such as Priory Hall.0 -
Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 12264
I never thought twice about the term until I moved to Ireland where I met people like yourself (usually in pubs)who seem to put a lot of effort in to being offended by myself using the term engineer when I don't even have a briefcase
You should not be offended by this.
IMHO the professionalism and skill required for a tradesman is no less than that required for an engineer.
To me engineers do not work as on their tools as tradesmen, their primary role is generally a technical design role.
This is not to say that one role is better or more highly skilled than the other, just different.
Most of my experience has been on large industrial projects in Europe.
All of the successful projects have the same winning combination, skilled craftsmen completing work that was designed by competent engineers.
One is useless without the other.
Successful project delivery requires a coordinated approach from both, not a p!ssing contest
I never thought twice about the term until I moved to Ireland where I met people like yourself (usually in pubs)who seem to put a lot of effort in to being offended by myself using the term engineer when I don't even have a briefcase:eek.
I think you are taking offence to this when it is not intended.
In the UK there seem to be some sort cuts to getting recognised as qualified in certain trades. We don't have that here so many tend take qualifications a bit more seriously, so for example if someone claims to be a plumber this implies that they have completed all four years of the appropriate apprenticeship and achieved the qualification.
Speaking as a qualified electrician I do not agree when an acquaintance of mine who a self trained satellite TV installer refers to himself as an "electrician".
I don't say anything, but to me he is misrepresenting himself
In some countries where "engineer" is a protected title.
To refer to oneself as an engineer in these countries without having the required qualifications is would be akin to pretending to be a doctor.
If you worked with people from these countries you may have a different view.0 -
However as people with this trade simply do not exist in this country there is no point in pretending that employing these people to do this work is a solution.
It only requires training and if you don't wish to have specific training how would you propose meeting the same standard of domestic installs.Nobody can deny that the standard of plumbing evident is so many Celtic Tiger homes is appalling.
At present one of the plumbers that contributed to this mess can become a RGI in just 10 days and wire an unlimited amount of heating controls at mains voltage :eek:
In my view this is madness.
If they can't plumb a simple home after a four year apprenticeship for the love of God don't let them near electricity!
A standard should be set and met irrespective of the trade, there are a lot of spoofers in Ireland and with the correct policing of standards they could and should be a thing of the past, to talk about work done by those representing a trade are pointless unless there is quality control on that trade.
Also this is a electrical form where my comments are electrically based come over to the P&H forum for the balance in plumbing bitching:DThat is not to say that there are not some excellent plumbers out there, because there are.
However I imagine that they would take exception to electricians completing a 10 day course and suggesting that they can do aspects plumbing work to a higher standard than plumbers.
Do you think a sparks who's had extra training would be a help or hinderance to the plumber?
As for working to a higher standard when it comes to wiring, to say I or any RGI runs, wires and tests cable better than a sparks would be a nonsense, I am not a electrician and more than happy to be the sparks bitch when wiring is concerned but when it comes to domestic heating controls and how they interact with a home and heat source that's where my experience kicks in.
Your argument isn't a representation of what is happening, I don't believe there are many tradesmen who will jump ship and become a apprentice again when they are experts of their own trade, very very few RGIs do their own wiring(when they can if they want to) and I can't see many sparks choosing to plumb.My concern is that all trades are being dumbed down.
The highly skilled "old school" tradesmen are being lost and are not being replaced.
We have people that are like Swiss Army knives: They can do a little of everything, but nothing right
The result is that we all end up settling for mediocrity with everything.
There was a time when a home was plumbed in copper piping with soldered joints, now it is badly installed Qualpex thrown around the place with push together joints that leak.
Woodwork throughout a home was completed by skilled carpenters, now it is completed by labourers using countless tubes of filler.
Even painting was a trade. There are not many qualified painters anymore and the results are there to be seen.
People with no real qualifications became builders.
Regulations ignored everywhere.
All of this contributed to situations such as Priory Hall.
I only work on domestic installations and see a lot of installs and although your generalisation has some merit there are enough good RGIs that any standard set could be met tomorrow as they are already working to a high standard, the Issue with RGIs is the only requirement for a long time to becoming a RGI was a heartbeat and in some cases they didn't even have that:eek:0 -
You should not be offended by this.
IMHO the professionalism and skill required for a tradesman is no less than that required for an engineer.
I'm not offended, there was a time where people threw their fresh poo at me in a attempt to show their displeasure in me, so I'm perfectly ok with being told I'm not a really a engineer, I just don't know why it's so important to some, don't they have Garth brooks tickets or something to be worrying about.To me engineers do not work as on their tools as tradesmen, their primary role is generally a technical design role.
This is not to say that one role is better or more highly skilled than the other, just different.
Most of my experience has been on large industrial projects in Europe.
All of the successful projects have the same winning combination, skilled craftsmen completing work that was designed by competent engineers.
One is useless without the other.
Successful project delivery requires a coordinated approach from both, not a p!ssing contest
You have that winning combination now and it can produce well plumbed, well wired installations but nobody takes ownership on controllability and performance of the two together.I think you are taking offence to this when it is not intended.
In the UK there seem to be some sort cuts to getting recognised as qualified in certain trades. We don't have that here so many tend take qualifications a bit more seriously, so for example if someone claims to be a plumber this implies that they have completed all four years of the appropriate apprenticeship and achieved the qualification.
Errr..... Having engineer in a job title is not a indication of a short cut and are you really telling me as a country ye take qualifications seriously, when ye only require 10 days to do the same job that took me years.
Although you have well trained tradesmen I find this is the land of the spoofers where the more you shout the less you say and being qualified isn't always as important as having a family member or friend who can get you in the door.
You have plumbers trained to a very high standard but that is meaningless as ye keep believing anyone who comes and claims to be a plumber
And he is that's completely different to a qualified tradesman that has a given title to help identify his trade, this works very successfully in the UK.Speaking as a qualified electrician I do not agree when an acquaintance of mine who a self trained satellite TV installer refers to himself as an "electrician".
I don't say anything, but to me he is misrepresenting himselfIn some countries where "engineer" is a protected title.
To refer to oneself as an engineer in these countries without having the required qualifications is would be akin to pretending to be a doctor.
If you worked with people from these countries you may have a different view.
Where not in those countries, where in one where people and ideas are commonly interchanging between here and the UK.
And again who cares.0 -
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Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 12264
I'm perfectly ok with being told I'm not a really a engineer, I just don't know why it's so important to some
An engineer that I know has a masters and is now studying for a PhD was a bit but out by the gentleman that was fixing the coffee machine referring to himself as an engineer
Can you see why?
I just thought it was a little sad, but would not make a big deal about it.
I guess it is the same feeling you get if you are told you are no more qualified than a RGI.
But as you say, who cares?You have that winning combination now and it can produce well plumbed, well wired installations but nobody takes ownership on controllability and performance of the two together.
In industrial projects we have engineers and crafts and very complex heating systems.
Engineers design, coordinate, programme, and commission.
Crafts in the form of fitters, electricians and instrumentation technicians install and assist with commissioning.
Guess what? It works!Errr..... Having engineer in a job title is not a indication of a short cut
You have misread my post.
I am not suggesting that a four year apprenticeship is a short cut.
I am suggesting that working as an electrician without having completed a four year apprenticeship is.
You mentioned to me that in the UK there was an equivalent qualification to that of an electrician and I explained that in Ireland there is no equivalent. It takes us four years, no short cuts.are you really telling me as a country ye take qualifications seriously, when ye only require 10 days to do the same job that took me years.
No I am not.
You have misread my post.
I have consistently told you in this thread that there is no comparison between your qualification and the RGI qualification.
My position has remained unchanged.Although you have well trained tradesmen I find this is the land of the spoofers where the more you shout the less you say and being qualified isn't always as important as having a family member or friend who can get you in the door.
That has not been my experience.
Perhaps there was a time when knowing the right person could open doors, but in these difficult times few companies can afford to employ a person just because off their connections.
All of the engineers that I have worked with or under (I have been in this game full time since 1990) have been a minimum of degree qualified.
You have plumbers trained to a very high standard but that is meaningless as ye keep believing anyone who comes and claims to be a plumberWhere not in those countries
....and we are not in the UK either.
We are in Ireland, a country that does not have people with your qualification regardless of what you call it, so it is not a solution and regardless of what we do it will not be a solution in the near future either.
But we are in a country where "chartered engineer" is a protected title and due to the fact that the term engineer has been diluted so much many engineers are now applying for chartered status.0 -
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Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 12264
Why would you want a person to carry out electrical work at a lethal voltage if they are as poorly trained as you suggest?I wouldn't but your missing the point that there are lots of competent RGIs who are judged by the work of others.
So now you agree that these particular RGIs should not be wiring heating controls.
This means that finally we are in complete agreement.
It is a long way from your previous position which was:
As stated by you earlier in the thread here.As a heating engineer I think only RGIs should be wiring heating systems
This would have meant that even the best of electricians would not be permitted to wire heating controls.
I see this as a major shift in from your initial position.
I am still can't get over this remark of yours:the Issue with RGIs is the only requirement for a long time to becoming a RGI was a heartbeat and in some cases they didn't even have that
Personally I think it is too harsh, but I admit that boiler installation is more your area of expertise than mine so I won't argue.
By the way this is the short cut to working as an electrician that I was referring to.
As previously stated this short cut does not exist in Ireland and rightly so in my opinion.
Now that we agree, lets call it a day
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I fully appreciate that the use of the word engineer could annoy a real engineer, but it's my given job title and I have no control over it, it's the accepted norm in the UK, I don't think any blue collar work believes they're misrepresenting themselves when they have the term engineer in their job title.An engineer that I know has a masters and is now studying for a PhD was a bit but out by the gentleman that was fixing the coffee machine referring to himself as an engineer
Can you see why?
I just thought it was a little sad, but would not make a big deal about it.
I guess it is the same feeling you get if you are told you are no more qualified than a RGI.
But as you say, who cares?In industrial projects we have engineers and crafts and very complex heating systems.
Engineers design, coordinate, programme, and commission.
Crafts in the form of fitters, electricians and instrumentation technicians install and assist with commissioning.
Guess what? It works!
Again I am happy it works but domestically it doesn't.You have misread my post.
I am not suggesting that a four year apprenticeship is a short cut.
I am suggesting that working as an electrician without having completed a four year apprenticeship is.
You mentioned to me that in the UK there was an equivalent qualification to that of an electrician and I explained that in Ireland there is no equivalent. It takes us four years, no short cuts.
Forgive me:o but that's the joy of text:D
See aboveNo I am not.
You have misread my post.
I have consistently told you in this thread that there is no comparison between your qualification and the RGI qualification.
My position has remained unchanged.That has not been my experience.
Perhaps there was a time when knowing the right person could open doors, but in these difficult times few companies can afford to employ a person just because off their connections.
All of the engineers that I have worked with or under (I have been in this game full time since 1990) have been a minimum of degree qualified.
I meet a lot of spoofers in the gas industry from the RGI who has all the gear and no idea but talks a good game to those further up who are more interested in their own sound bites than improving standards but that's for a different thread and I'd have to change my name.You have plumbers trained to a very high standard but that is meaningless as ye keep believing anyone who comes and claims to be a plumber
Nobody ever checks to see if the tradesman coming in the door is really qualified, what's the point of having highly trained plumbers who are all singing, all dancing if anybody and their mother is allowed to do plumbing.
No but should me living here cause such a stir when I use the "E" word.....and we are not in the UK either.
We are in Ireland, a country that does not have people with your qualification regardless of what you call it, so it is not a solution and regardless of what we do it will not be a solution in the near future either.
I can understand that I'm sure they must be very fed up getting phone calls all the time from people with broken coffee machinesBut we are in a country where "chartered engineer" is a protected title and due to the fact that the term engineer has been diluted so much many engineers are now applying for chartered status.
Now for the sake of all the sparks who've had enough of me I'll drop out:D0 -
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