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Central Heating controls
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Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭
Join Date:Posts: 12264
Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »Right ok lets establish an example. To wire a shower in a bungalow, open attic pull cable across top of joices, terminate into fb and dp switch and shower. Do you think its necessary to do an ir test on this?
This post suggests to me that you do not realise that to comply with ET101 this test must be carried out on all final circuits before they are energised.
This is captured in section 613 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations.Doing a IP test was never part of the requirement for domestic heating wiring and for many years I was happy my wiring installs were safe but since the introduction of Part P(UK) and heating engineers/plumbers now carrying meggers as a given I'm sure it'll become more common place.
I assume that you mean IR (as in Insulation Resistance) test and not IP.
As we are in Ireland Registered Electrical Contractors are obliged to comply with ET101:2008
To comply with these rules an REC would carry out the following tests/ checks on all final circuits electrical installation:
● Continuity of bonding conductors
● Insulation resistance test
● Continuity of final ring circuits
● Separation of circuits (SELV / PELV) - Often referred to as segregation
● Earthing & equipotential bonding checks
● Polarity checks and phase rotation (when applicable)
● Volt drop
● Earth fault loop impedance test
● Verification of operation of RCDs
I would be interested in knowing which of the above tests do RGIs are obliged carry out (if any)?I worked in a environment that's heavily scrutinised especially in the UK.
Your experience working in the UK and the course you completed is not relevant (no offence intended) to the discussion about RGI wiring heating controls.
This is personalising the debate.
I am sure you can do a great job (although I disagree with you for not carrying out an IR test) because your qualification is superior to the minimum qualification that is required to become an RGI.
This is about RGIs wiring heating controls in Ireland and carrying out less tests (if any) than what are expected from a Registered Electrical Contractor.I am happy to work to standards that are that in depth and I believe if the lack of a IP test resulted in a incident of any kind IP testing would be mandatory pretty much over night in the UK
Any experienced electrician with testing experience will tell you that they have experienced cables failing an insulation resistance test. It is impossible to calculate how may incidents / accidents have been prevented by this test being carried out. In some cases a failure in the integrity of the insulation may cause a fire or cause a problem many years later. There have been plenty of electrical fires over the years and I think it would be fair to say that some would not have happened if all of the electrical tests were carried out.
I would love to know: Which insulation tests do you think should be carried out in a domestic electrical installation and why?
How can you be confident that nobody on site will ever damage your cabling?
Over 99% of the time it will probably be ok, but is that enough for you?Although RGIs can wire large installation I know of very very few that will do it, it is left to the sparks
That is not the point.
The point is that I strongly disagree with is this remark that you made:
As a heating engineer I think only RGIs should be wiring heating systems not because i'v a inbuilt hatred for sparks but if one person does the job then over time you learn how the controls interact with each other and become better at designing a heating system that will get the best out of the plumbing and wiring.
It now appears from what you are saying that RGIs are not expected to test the electrical work that they do to the same level that we know an REC is expected to.
Are they expected to do any electrical tests at all?the argument about RGIis wiring big installs is similar to the argument made by plumbers complaining about sparks becoming RGIs and taking their work,in reality very very few sparks become RGIs and it's hardly worth mentioning.
Not really a fair comparison, the difference is no electrician has gone onto the plumbing and suggested this (this idea has not even been floated on the electrical forum).
I would consider this to be a very provocative action but perhaps not as provocative as posting this on an electrical forum
:Forgive me I meant Part L, Part P is for the UK and allows plumbers to transfer their skills to work as electricians as it's easy to train up plumbers to be sparks.
In Ireland there is no shortcut to becoming a qualified electrician.
Despite the issues we admittedly have with some cowboy electricians Ireland produces some world class electricians. As a country we punch above our weight in the World Skills Competition on a regular basis. I have seen evidence of the ability of Irish electricians when I worked abroad on very large E & I projects and all/most of the senior staff were irish sparks.
It will take a plumber that wants to qualify as an electrician four years to qualify, and rightly so. The inverse also applies.
The parallels with plumbing are so minimal that they are almost irrelevant.
The most useful transferable skill that I can think of coney comes into play when installing steel conduit.
As I have already acknowledged I agree with you that many electricians do not wire heating controls properly and training in this area would be very beneficial. Like many on this forum I disagree strongly with self certification and I have been disappointed by RECI inspectors and RECs ignoring ET101 when it suits. That does not mean that the solution is to get RGIs to wire heating controls.
I would have no issue with an RGI:
1) Instructing an electrician how the heating system should function.
2) Commissioning the entire heating system including testing the controls.
3) Refusing to sign off on a system on the basis that the electrical controls are not installed correctly.
These trades need to work more closely together.0 -
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I assume that you mean IR (as in Insulation Resistance) test and not IP.
As we are in Ireland Registered Electrical Contractors are obliged to comply with ET101:2008
I doI would be interested in knowing which of the above tests do RGIs are obliged carry out (if any)?
Appliance specific and including external controls:
Resistance to earth:
Earth continuity test:
Short circuit
Mains voltage and polarity testsYour experience working in the UK and the course you completed is not relevant (no offence intended) to the discussion about RGI wiring heating controls.
This is personalising the debate.
I am sure you can do a great job (although I disagree with you for not carrying out an IR test) because your qualification is superior to the minimum qualification that is required to become an RGI.
This is about RGIs wiring heating controls in Ireland and carrying out less tests (if any) than what are expected from a Registered Electrical Contractor.
RGI work and certify their own work as per the CER.I would love to know: Which insulation tests do you think should be carried out in a domestic electrical installation and why?
How can you be confident that nobody on site will ever damage your cabling?
Over 99% of the time it will probably be ok, but is that enough for you?
I have been involved in domestic heating wiring all my working life I am happy the installs I did and any rewires were safe, I also worked for British Gas that employed thousands of gas engineers like myself so working in a environment where safety was paramount I am happy if not doing a IR test resulted in a issue my working practises would of changed over night.
Now I know a bit more I would be happy to see IR testing of heating wiring as a given but at the moment the CER don't see a need for it and your own electricians don't do it very often( i'v never seen it done)That is not the point.
The point is that I strongly disagree with is this remark that you made:
As a heating engineer I think only RGIs should be wiring heating systems not because i'v a inbuilt hatred for sparks but if one person does the job then over time you learn how the controls interact with each other and become better at designing a heating system that will get the best out of the plumbing and wiring.
If you're job was to follow up on heating installation issues you would understand why that comment was made, electricians in general don't take ownership of heating as it's not their cert, how does a sparks learn how heating controls interact if they don't understand heating, a heating engineer learns from trial and error what works best and where to poisition it, how many electricians understand they are putting lives at risk(depending on the boiler) by putting 230v on the auxiliary or bringing a switch live back to the boiler instead of using the 230v from the other side of the link in the boiler.
I think by not understand heating control or the individual characteristics of boilers right now is a bigger issue due to the problems it causes than the very very RGIs not doing a IR test.Not really a fair comparison, the difference is no electrician has gone onto the plumbing and suggested this (this idea has not even been floated on the electrical forum).
I would consider this to be a very provocative action but perhaps not as provocative as posting this on an electrical forum:
Forgive me, it was more of a indication that the level of complaints raised may sometimes not match the reality of the situation at hand ie very few RGIs are or want to or will ever do wiring.In Ireland there is no shortcut to becoming a qualified electrician.
Despite the issues we admittedly have with some cowboy electricians Ireland produces some world class electricians. As a country we punch above our weight in the World Skills Competition on a regular basis. I have seen evidence of the ability of Irish electricians when I worked abroad on very large E & I projects and all/most of the senior staff were irish sparks.
It will take a plumber that wants to qualify as an electrician four years to qualify, and rightly so. The inverse also applies.
The parallels with plumbing are so minimal that they are almost irrelevant.
The most useful transferable skill that I can think of coney comes into play when installing steel conduit.
Your understanding of plumbing and gas fitting has you at a disadvantage, it is well known and fairly evident that having a similar mindset allows plumbers(or electricians with grasping heating design) to grasp the principles of electrical testing or design quite quickly when the training incorporates already used testing procesdures
If you have a understanding of logic and work in a technical environment learning new skills isn't rocket science.
Also are you aware that electricans don't even have good working practise for the most basic of electrical components, the switchable fused spur is always wired as the starting point of a installation and is sited within arms length of the appliance, the position and type of spur is dependant on each electrican and I give a big thumbs up to those electricians who go to the effort of doing it right, thank you.As I have already acknowledged I agree with you that many electricians do not wire heating controls properly and training in this area would be very beneficial. Like many on this forum I disagree strongly with self certification and I have been disappointed by RECI inspectors and RECs ignoring ET101 when it suits. That does not mean that the solution is to get RGIs to wire heating controls.
I would have no issue with an RGI:
1) Instructing an electrician how the heating system should function.
2) Commissioning the entire heating system including testing the controls.
3) Refusing to sign off on a system on the basis that the electrical controls are not installed correctly.
These trades need to work more closely together.
Training, training and more training.
Understanding gas boilers and their funkiness isn't rocket science, electricians have transferable skills and could be made to sit a competency paper to prove they understand what their wiring and how to get the most out of the installation.
Right now it isn't working and no one is interested in fixing it, what's the point of having all the gear if you have no idea, why does the idea of RGI doing wiring generate more posts than the level of wiring being done right now, the OPs wiring problems are not unique I'm sorry to say.
I am more than happy for sparks to wire but my wish for one trade to install domestic heating is purely to do away with the day to day problems I incounter which at times is pure silliness, what's the point in having high end boilers with state if the art controllability if it's wired like we're in the 60s?
I got called to a big site a few years ago where there was agro between the sparks and the plumbers, I turned out and found nether side were talking but were ready to throw a few shapes, the problem was no hot water, the spark said "I wired it right it's not my problem" the plumbers said "I plumbed it right it's not my problem" it turned out there was air in the coil and that was the problem, so again I will my point isn't about only RGIs should wire it's about what will it take to get the quality of heating installs people I paying for and from my own experience it's much easyier to train a plumber to check his wires than to train a electrican to pipe a heating system.
Right I think I'll leave it there I do have a personal(albeit boring) agenda which is trying to improve heating wiring design and controllability so I don't want to take up any more of your forum, but one more thing if in doubt ring the manufactures you'll find us more than happy to give a sparks a dig out.0 -
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