Central Heating controls

Bruthal

Dtp1979 wrote: »

I've seen women who were less bitchy

I'd say they knew their place in your house:pac:

Dtp1979

Bruthal wrote: »

I'd say they knew their place in your house:pac:

Damn straight

cast_iron

Bruthal wrote: »

Did the cer say heating wiring is made safe by protective devices?

They didn't say that. They deem a fault down stream of the spur to operate the protective device, and that to be sufficient enough protection. There's a subtle difference in what they say and what you are claiming.

I have to say, I've never seen or heard of any electrician performing tests on control wiring on a heating system in a domestic setup. And I've worked on mansions to hovels. Nor have I seen it in industrial, come to think of it.

Arguing the merits of it here is one thing, but I think the CER have stated clearly that it's not required as part of the certification process.

Bruthal

cast_iron wrote: »

They didn't say that. They deem a fault down stream of the spur to operate the protective device, and that to be sufficient enough protection.

Enough protection for what? Is an MCB and RCD on a socket circuit insufficient protection for it to be in the same category?

There's a subtle difference in what they say and what you are claiming.

Here is what they said

CER are of the opinion that once the correct overload protection and cable size is installed the circuit will operate to a safe manner. If a circuit leaks or becomes overloaded downstream of the spur then the associated protective devices should activate appropriately.

Does the exact same thing not apply to a socket, light circuit etc? Why the difference in treatment then?

I would say a circuit operating in a safe manner is a safe circuit. But my actual point there was, that it is no safer than a socket circuit having sockets added to it. But they state that because the heating circuit has safety devices, that it can be added to by competent persons.

Maybe arthur is right, and I am reading it wrong. But id like someone to explain how a plumber can wire an entire heating control system, which is in no way a minor job, and an electrician cant add in a few lights onto a circuit.

Maybe you have the answer CI?

Is it that the heating circuit has a spur? Is it simply a revenue thing, only registered electricians wire from the DB, and registered gas poeple wire the heating circuits?

All along, I just find it curious, and a laugh as well. I dont really work in the domestic electrical.

I have to say, I've never seen or heard of any electrician performing tests on control wiring on a heating system

Do you think they should?
Do you think they should test socket circuits, or lighting circuits?

2011

cast_iron wrote: »

I have to say, I've never seen or heard of any electrician performing tests on control wiring on a heating system in a domestic setup.

That differs from my experience. I admit that frequently electrical testing is not carried out in domestic installations, but when I was an electrical contractor (many moons ago) my understanding was that all mains voltage cabling had to be tested with no exceptions. I have never seen anything in ET101 to suggest that some of these circuits circuits (or part thereof) can be excluded. I am talking pre CER in this case.

Nor have I seen it in industrial, come to think of it.

Again this is not my experience.
Why in an industrial would certain tests on mains voltage cables be excluded?
Part of my job is to review test documentation of E & I handover packages.
I always insist that all cabling is tested as per ET101 and I have yet to have a contractor disagree with me.

I think the CER have stated clearly that it's not required as part of the certification process.

I agree, they have been very clear.
I was just surprised by their position on this.

Bruthal wrote: »

how is it minor works to wire an entire heating system, but major works to add in 2 sockets.

I have to agree.

As already stated I was surprised by their reply, very odd indeed.

On that note:
Assuming I add just one socket to a circuit, clearly this is minor works.
What if someone else adds another socket at a later date to the same circuit, could this be considered minor works too?

mikeyjames9

if you spurred off for a shed, garden lites or wall lights etc

you would leave the switched spur ON for the IR test

if you had a single fixed appliance you would turn the switch off for IR testing

is the boiler control wiring not a part of the fixed wiring of the installation?

"testing up to the spur" is not a very sound or satisfactory explanation

at best it's a loophole that will have to be closed off

or else their interpretation of et:101 is mistaken and the etci will correct them on this

cast_iron

Bruthal wrote: »

But id like someone to explain how a plumber can wire an entire heating control system, which is in no way a minor job, and an electrician cant add in a few lights onto a circuit.

Maybe you have the answer CI?

I don't have a definitive answer. I don't work for the CER. But I would speculate that it's because the electrician is deemed to have provided a competent circuit to the point of the spur. And that the heating system is a "system" after that, that can be considered outside the electrician's remit. He is not required to wire the heating system, so therefore it can remain outside his certification requirement.

I wouldn't call it a revenue thing personally. I'd say it's a drawing of the line as to where the electrical/plumbing jobs cross over. A not so perfect compromise perhaps.

Do you think they should?
Do you think they should test socket circuits, or lighting circuits?

In an ideal world, yes. 1 meter flexes to motorised valves and the like would seem daft to test, where it's all on show.
If it's done soundly by a competent electrician, then I wouldn't be too bothered about the readings of any particular part of a heating circuit being submitted for a cert.

Yes, I think sockets and lights should be tested. For obvious reasons.
There is no reason they shouldn't be as they are the sole remit of and electrician.
There's a less than ideal crossover in heating systems that mean the sparks may not be responsible for the wiring.

cast_iron

2011 wrote: »

That differs from my experience. I admit that frequently electrical testing is not carried out in domestic installations, but when I was an electrical contractor (many moons ago) my understanding was that all mains voltage cabling had to be tested with no exceptions. I have never seen anything in ET101 to suggest that some of these circuits circuits (or part thereof) can be excluded. I am talking pre CER in this case.



Again this is not my experience.
Why in an industrial would certain tests on mains voltage cables be excluded?
Part of my job is to review test documentation of E & I handover packages.
I always insist that all cabling is tested as per ET101 and I have yet to have a contractor disagree with me.

I'm not disagreeing either. I'm just saying it's not something I've seen happen too often.

On that note:
Assuming I add just one socket to a circuit, clearly this is minor works.
What if someone else adds another socket at a later date to the same circuit, could this be considered minor works too?

I would guess it's worded in such a way that only one extra socket is allowed over the original installation (same way it work in planning permission). But that's just a guess. I've not read up on it in detail.

Bruthal

cast_iron wrote: »

I don't have a definitive answer. I don't work for the CER. But I would speculate that it's because the electrician is deemed to have provided a competent circuit to the point of the spur. And that the heating system is a "system" after that, that can be considered outside the electrician's remit. He is not required to wire the heating system, so therefore it can remain outside his certification requirement.

I wouldn't call it a revenue thing pers HVonally. I'd say it's a drawing of the line as to where the electrical/plumbing jobs cross over. A not so perfect compromise perhaps.

In an ideal world, yes. 1 meter flexes to motorised valves and the like would seem daft to test, where it's all on show.
If it's done soundly by a competent electrician, then I wouldn't be too bothered about the readings of any particular part of a heating circuit being submitted for a cert.

Yes, I think sockets and lights should be tested. For obvious reasons.
There is no reason they shouldn't be as they are the sole remit of and electrician.
There's a less than ideal crossover in heating systems that mean the sparks may not be responsible for the wiring.

If sockets and lights should be tested, then so should the heating control wiring. I'm not talking about testing flexes. I'm talking about testing 230v fixed wiring in a house, which is what the wiring from spur to heater, time clock, thermostats and motorised valves is. Its no different than the wiring from switches to lights.

I don't see where a compromise between electrical and heating should include a compromise on wiring standards and associated requirements on such wiring myself.

There seems some irony that wiring installed by an electrician requires testing, while that installed by a heating installer doesn't.

2011

Bruthal wrote: »

I don't see where a compromise between electrical and heating should include a compromise on wiring standards and associated requirements on such wiring myself.

There seems some irony that wiring installed by an electrician requires testing, while that installed by a heating installer doesn't.

Exactly.

cast_iron

Bruthal wrote: »

I don't see where a compromise between electrical and heating should include a compromise on wiring standards and associated requirements on such wiring myself.

I don't see where it says standards are compromised. Testing requirements are less though.

There seems some irony that wiring installed by an electrician requires testing, while that installed by a heating installer doesn't.

It's a bit of an anomaly alright. It is stated that the RGI would be certifying (not testing) the system as installed and working correctly however, and would have a level of responsibility as a result. Clearly, an electrician can only certify something he has tested, and doesn't have an option for an overall 'catch all' certification.

I think the testing versus certifying could be seen to be splitting hairs a bit.

Bruthal

cast_iron wrote: »

I don't see where it says standards are compromised. Testing requirements are less though.

Presumably the requirement of proper testing of installations has benefits with regards to the standards of the installations overall.

It might be another possible get out clause for insurance companies also, although thats probably a separate issue there.

2011

cast_iron wrote: »

I don't see where it says standards are compromised.

It does not explicitly say this but this is clearly the case if electrical testing requirements are less completely absent.

I think the testing versus certifying could be seen to be splitting hairs a bit.

I don't agree.

IMHO a certificate should only be issued if the work referenced on the cert has passed specific regognised tests regardless of whether the work is structural, mechanical, electrical or gas.

To do otherwise is at the very least misleading, in some cases dishonest and in other cases dangerous.

Consider a customer, end user or insurance company being told that the certificate they had been issued for some work that had been carried out was awarded on the basis that the work "looked ok".
That the work had not actually been tested in any way whatsoever.
I think that they could be forgiven for thinking that the certificate is a meaningless piece of paper that lacks any credibility.

cast_iron

Bruthal wrote: »

Presumably the requirement of proper testing of installations has benefits with regards to the standards of the installations overall.

Was it not you that was arguing previously about the fact that only RECs can now add 2 sockets for a neighbour, and must provide a cert that this work is competent? Where as a regular electrician could not so this due to it being now restricted.

I thought back then you opinion was that this was a nonsense. Now all of a sudden, proper testing ensures "benefits" as regards standards. Don't take me up wrong - that's not me having a go personally, I'm just pointing out a contradiction.

cast_iron

2011 wrote: »

I think that they could be forgiven for thinking that the certificate is a meaningless piece of paper that lacks any credibility.

I broadly agree with your point. However, as stated by the CER, this cert would give a level of insurance as to the competency of the work. And a level of recourse if anything went wrong. Hardly meaningless or lacking in credibility.

I have to say, I've never heard of anyone being killed or seriously injured as a result of untested heating controls. That's not to say that standards should be done away with.

The long and short of your argument is that you are saying only RECs can wire heating systems by virtue of the fact that they are the only ones with the competent knowledge/equipment to perform the adequate testing. The CER is saying that there is a level of competence required to become an RGI and that that is sufficient, along with their certification.

Bruthal

cast_iron wrote: »

Was it not you that was arguing previously about the fact that only RECs can now add 2 sockets for a neighbour, and must provide a cert that this work is competent? Where as a regular electrician could not so this due to it being now restricted.

I thought back then you opinion was that this was a nonsense. Now all of a sudden, proper testing ensures "benefits" as regards standards.

That was to do with a neighbour who had a nailed cable, and an rec left it that way, and disconnected the earth in the t&e and by passed it, leaving the live nail in the wall, and also the live ends of the disconnected earth wire behind the sockets. The point I made at the time was, being an rec means little in terms of doing the job to a good standard.

Presumably the requirement of proper testing

The key word there is "proper". And fixing any problems properly.

I don't believe I ever said proper testing is not needed.

Don't take me up wrong - that's not me having a go personally, I'm just pointing out a contradiction.

That's OK, there might well be some contradiction. My thing with restricted works is that I believe its about revenue rather than safety.

But this thing with heating circuits is not about whether it should be an rec doing them from my point of view, it's about the heating control circuits being treated differently than the rest of an installations wiring.

2011

cast_iron wrote: »

I broadly agree with your point. However, as stated by the CER, this cert would give a level of insurance as to the competency of the work. And a level of recourse if anything went wrong. Hardly meaningless or lacking in credibility.

Point taken but when I said "I think that they could be forgiven for thinking that the certificate is a meaningless piece of paper that lacks any credibility" it was in response to this statement you made in your previous post:

I think the testing versus certifying could be seen to be splitting hairs a bit.

I have to say, I've never heard of anyone being killed or seriously injured as a result of untested heating controls.

I am sure that you have heard of people being fataly electrocuted.
Whether they receive a fatal shock from heating controls, a lighting circuit or a socket circuit makes no difference.
Regardless of the decision that CER take none of us can change the laws of physics.
A 230VAC shock from heating controls can be lethal.

The long and short of your argument is that you are saying only RECs can wire heating systems by virtue of the fact that they are the only ones with the competent knowledge/equipment to perform the adequate testing.

Actually my biggest issue was this statement from Gary71 "I think only RGIs should be wiring heating systems" way back in this thread.
I strongly disagree with this statement.
That would mean that even the most competent and experienced of electricians should be prevented from wiring heating controls just because they are not RGI.

Gary and I had a good chat about this on the phone.
I will let him clarify his position on this matter.

The CER is saying that there is a level of competence required to become an RGI and that that is sufficient, along with their certification.

...and CER have the last word on it as they make up the rules.
However I am entitled to my opinion.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

I am sure that you have heard of people being fataly electrocuted.
Whether they receive a fatal shock from heating controls, a lighting circuit or a socket circuit makes no difference.
Regardless of the decision that CER take none of us can change the laws of physics.
A 230VAC shock from heating controls can be lethal.

And contrary to what some may believe, a 3 amp fuse in a spur won't save the victim.

mikeyjames9

I would normally test the heating cables at a wiring centre or common point

I'm not saying i always got every core
mind you

any competent electricIan knows that if you add on cabling for stats programmers boilers that you would at least perform an IR test on the cabling

at the very least to prevent a nuisance trip on an rcd

2011

2011 wrote: »

Actually my biggest issue was this statement from Gary71 "I think only RGIs should be wiring heating systems" way back in tis thread.
I strongly disagree with this statement.
That would mean that even the most competent and experienced of electricians should be prevented from wiring heating controls just because they are not RGI.

Imagine if you will for a moment a tradesman who is City and Guilds qualified via 3/4 year apprenticeship to carry out both aspects of domestic heating to a high standard that would keep the biggest nay sayer happy in respect of safety and ability.

Now let's call that person a heating engineer:cool:.

What I should of said was only heating engineers should be wiring heating systems as is the way where I came from:eek:, I shouldn't of used the term RGI my bad:o without clarifying that there are RGIs who are competent with wiring and could be classed as heating engineers, ye at times only choose to see the 10 days training a RGI gets and not the trade qualifications a lot bring with them.

The only tradesmen taking full advantage of the controllability of gas boilers are stand alone RGIs, why is that? Their reading the same manufactures instructions(with colour pictures:D), we're only talking about running a extra two wires volts free to the orange and gray on hot water zone valve and maybe a outdoor sensor.

A qualified plumber who is a RGI can be trained to use the same testing procedures and equipment to meet a higher electrical testing requirement to prove a installation is safe in the same way a sparks with the right training can become a RGISPARKS:cool: and prove the boiler is wired not only perfectly but also to meet its full potential with all the external controls are in correct position.

My comments are based on the nonsense I see most weeks, ye want to take ownership of domestic heating wiring fine but shouldn't ye also be ready to take ownership of the performance of the heating system which up to now has been lacking.

Splitting a heating install is to me a nonsense but is the way you choose to do installs in Ireland, doing it this way leads to very basic heating installs in general. I'm more interested in how the heating system actually works, I'm fault finding on new install every week so I know what's going on out there and gas boilers are going to get much much more complicated not less, what's wrong with having heating wiring that's relevant to the technology that's out there?

mikeyjames9

gary71 wrote: »

A qualified plumber who is a RGI can be trained to use the same testing procedures and equipment to meet a higher electrical testing requirement to prove a installation is safe

do you realise how long it takes to know what you're doing?

you can't just put a plumber on a training course and expect him to be able to test wiring , use electrical test equipment and interpret the results

mikeyjames9

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

do you realise how long it takes to know what you're doing?

you can't just put a plumber on a training course and expect him to be able to test wiring , use electrical test equipment and interpret the results

It's being done very successfully already:eek:

Or do you think the CERs approach is better than say running a approved course like the one below that can teach plumbers to test their wiring which in most cases is uniform (albeit a couple of meters) everyday of their working life.

Or do you think it's beyond you to learn the more technical aspects of domestic plumbing and system characteristics to make you a better domestic heating wiring installer.

Now it's easy to see what you don't like but tell me how are you going to bring domestic heating wiring up to date?




If you have a look below of the Part P scheme which has improved electrical safety in the UK.

http://www.plumbing-training.info/plumbing-Part-P.html
The UK government introduced various new building regulations that came into effect on the 1st January 2005, of which the Part P is just one, (it runs part A through to part P).

The reason Part P is of particular interest to plumbers (and primarily electricians) is that the new Part P regulation states that most domestic electrical work must be notified to the local building authority.


However, if the work is carried out by a "competent person" who is registered with the Part P scheme there is no need to do this.

To register on the Part P scheme you must prove your competency to be able to work safely, efficiently and legally on domestic electrical equipment, to prove this you will be assessed by a governing body assessor, you will need to show that you have domestic electrical installation knowledge and a relevant qualification that proves you can competently work on electrical equipment in a home.

Do you really need Part P?

Well if you want to be able to undertake any electrical work then yes, you do. For example such common tasks as installing electrical showers in the bathroom or extractor fans over the hob in the kitchen etc... will require you to be Part P certified.

Here is some of the work that you can only do if you are registered on the Part P scheme:

Installation or replacement of immersion heater and controls.
Central Heating controls.
Installation or replacement of an electric shower or shower pump.
Earth bonding in bathrooms, shower rooms or kitchens.
Installation or replacement of macerator units.
Extension of ring mains.
So, how can I get trained up?

As with most trade skills these days there are some excellent training centres around the UK that are available for your needs, there are short refresher courses if you are an experienced plumber who wants to get certified for electrical installations, or if you are new to the whole thing there are more comprehensive training courses available.

If you are thinking of doing an intensive plumbing training course it is well worth you checking if the Part P training is included in your overall training.

mikeyjames9

gary71 wrote: »

It's being done very successfully already:eek:

Or do you think the CERs approach is better than say running a approved course like the one below that can teach plumbers to test their wiring which in most cases is uniform (albeit a couple of meters) everyday of their working life.

Or do you think it's beyond you to learn the more technical aspects of domestic plumbing and system characteristics to make you a better domestic heating wiring installer.

Now it's easy to see what you don't like but tell me how are you going to bring domestic heating wiring up to date?




If you have a look below of the Part P scheme which has improved electrical safety in the UK.

http://www.plumbing-training.info/plumbing-Part-P.html
The UK government introduced various new building regulations that came into effect on the 1st January 2005, of which the Part P is just one, (it runs part A through to part P).

The reason Part P is of particular interest to plumbers (and primarily electricians) is that the new Part P regulation states that most domestic electrical work must be notified to the local building authority.


However, if the work is carried out by a "competent person" who is registered with the Part P scheme there is no need to do this.

To register on the Part P scheme you must prove your competency to be able to work safely, efficiently and legally on domestic electrical equipment, to prove this you will be assessed by a governing body assessor, you will need to show that you have domestic electrical installation knowledge and a relevant qualification that proves you can competently work on electrical equipment in a home.

Do you really need Part P?

Well if you want to be able to undertake any electrical work then yes, you do. For example such common tasks as installing electrical showers in the bathroom or extractor fans over the hob in the kitchen etc... will require you to be Part P certified.

Here is some of the work that you can only do if you are registered on the Part P scheme:

Installation or replacement of immersion heater and controls.
Central Heating controls.
Installation or replacement of an electric shower or shower pump.
Earth bonding in bathrooms, shower rooms or kitchens.
Installation or replacement of macerator units.
Extension of ring mains.
So, how can I get trained up?

As with most trade skills these days there are some excellent training centres around the UK that are available for your needs, there are short refresher courses if you are an experienced plumber who wants to get certified for electrical installations, or if you are new to the whole thing there are more comprehensive training courses available.

If you are thinking of doing an intensive plumbing training course it is well worth you checking if the Part P training is included in your overall training.

no it's not being done very successfuly

if you go to the UK electrical forums

you will see that the qualified electricIans are up in arms about the maniacs who have done these short courses and are now working

mikeyjames9

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

no it's not being done very successfuly

if you go to the UK electrical forums

you will see that the qualified electricIans are up in arms about the maniacs who have done these short courses and are now working

Tradesmen moaning because they don't like change who'd of thought:D

No trade likes to have their skills watered down, it took me 4 years to qualify as a gas service engineer but yet in Ireland it's a 10 day course.

Out of the two of us which one is going to have a better idea of the impact shortened training courses are going to have on our given industry.

To take a quilified plumber and give him the skills to test his work is not the same as letting any old fruit loop in to your industry and setting the right standard well also sort the men from the boys.

Again you split heating installs here and it doesn't work what you going to do to fix that if your adamant each technical trade can't learn to be more technical

I know RGIs who are better than me, who are self taught and haven't my qualifications so I know it's possible with the right training to get the right outcome but I'm also fully aware far more than you of the flip side that it doesn't work in some cases as well, the process is the issue not that some plumbers can't technically understand a element of what you do and follow that process correctly.

Would it not be better to give plumbers who are already technically minded the ability to test rather than leave the tests undone as they are now? Let's be honest no real tradesman is going to play at being another trade unless they are happy they are safe.

Now again I'm quite happy to agree only sparks should do the wiring it's not really a issue for me as nearly every heating system is wired by electricians but as the controllability and efficiency isn't very good due to a lack of understanding how are you going to fix it.

2011

gary71 wrote: »

Imagine if you will for a moment a tradesman who is City and Guilds qualified via 3/4 year apprenticeship to carry out both aspects of domestic heating to a high standard that would keep the biggest nay sayer happy in respect of safety and ability.

Correct me if I am wrong, but people with that qualification as rare as rocking horse sh!t in Ireland.
So this is not a solution that will work anytime soon.

What I should of said was only heating engineers should be wiring heating systems as is the way where I came from , I shouldn't of used the term RGI my bad

No bother, thanks for the clarification.
This is a completely different statement.

My comments are based on the nonsense I see most weeks, ye want to take ownership of domestic heating wiring fine but shouldn't ye also be ready to take ownership of the performance of the heating system which up to now has been lacking.

Agreed.
Electricians are already obliged to take ownership of all of the work that they do.
From what you are saying there is an issue the enforcement that needs to be addresed.
As part of their job they need to take instructions from and communicate with other trades and the customer.

Would it not be better to give plumbers who are already technically minded the ability to test rather than leave the tests undone as they are now?

Lets see how that would work in reverse:
I see appalling plumbing standards all of the time.
If electricians completed a 10 day training course to fix this work and install boilers I think that many plumbers would be very annoyed.
Obviously the plumbers were not capable as there are numerous leaks in the system and rads are falling off the walls.
They had their crack at this work already and failed miserably.
I am not being serious, just playing devil's advocate here.
But I guess you can see my point?

I don't agree with watering down trades be it plumbing, electrical RGI or heating engineers.

Splitting a heating install is to me a nonsense but is the way you choose to do installs in Ireland, doing it this way leads to very basic heating installs in general. I'm more interested in how the heating system actually works, I'm fault finding on new install every week so I know what's going on out there and gas boilers are going to get much much more complicated not less, what's wrong with having heating wiring that's relevant to the technology that's out there?

IMHO there are 3 options:

1) Train a qualified plumber to wire heating controls. Most likely even the most competent of plumbers will have very limited electrical training (if any). I know plenty of excellent plumbers who admit that their electrical understanding is close to zero. Clearly it would take a lot more time and training to get a plumber up to speed with electrical controls than it would an electrician.

2) Get heating engineers (as described) to do this work. Problem: It would take many years to have sufficient numbers for the entire country. I am sure that people with this qualification would be capable of wiring heating controls. However so am I and I am not a heating engineer. Just using the skills that I learnt as an electrician I can wire a boiler to do anything that is asked of me. I just need to have a conversation with the RGI / heating engineer. Once I am told what is required I can then do it. If I were an REC what would the problem be?

3) Provide qualified electricians with the necessary training. These individuals already have a minimum of 4 years electrical training behind them as well as a recognised electrical qualification. Therefore they have the smallest knowledge gap to close.
Let’s call a spade a spade, how much time during the 10 day RGI course is spent heating controls? A day or two at most?
Is it hard to believe that an electrician would have a distinct advantage over a plumber when it comes to learning about electrical controls?
Why would an electrician not be capable of grasping this during a short training course or as part of the apprenticeship training?
Why can’t the trades just talk and cooperate?
Perhaps what we need is a bit of policing to ensure that this work is done correctly and penalties applied to those that refuse to play ball.

RECs also already own all of the required tools, test equipment and each REC has to have a certified tester anyway. They also have plenty of experience in installing cables, terminating cables and designing circuits. Electricians are capable of reading manuals and connecting grey and orange wires.

Why don’t RGIs simply refuse to sign off on boiler installations if the heating controls are not installed correctly?
Will they receive no backing or support from CER or RECI / ECSSA ??

Let's be honest no real tradesman is going to play at being another trade unless they are happy they are safe.

You must be joking!
Look around you at the Celtic Tiger trail of destruction.
Ever hear of Priory Hall?

The two trades mix like oil and water with one usually blaming the other and nether taking ownership for any issues that might arise with each other's work leaving the home owner high and dry with he said she said, I know this because I am the one who calls to site to identify any installation issues from either side.

Look at the OPs wiring issues that is not rare, basic mistakes are common place my own home built 2006 has no interlock on the zone valves in the house and the boiler in the garage both independent of each other, the pipe stat for the secondary return was strapped to the outside of the insulation, no frost stat, the room stats are above the rads and the range with two big electric ovens was wired from a spur from the socket, fire alarm above the range, light switches behind doors.


All we are talking about here is the right training, I have already seen the impact of good training on the right candidate, to ignore the technical ability of some RGIs is unfortunate as there are some very good RGIs that would have no problem adapting to any technical training required of them and the same could be said for sparks, it's not rocket science:D.

I too would prefer if each trade stuck to what there good at but that isn't the way we seem to be heading(certainly if sparks left heating alone I might make a few quid).

I know what standards are required to install domestic heating, I know the training required to achieve those standards I also have experienced the pros and cons of a scheme that introduced new skill levels for trades including PartP, PartL, G3 etc.. Rightly or wrongly because of the extra training in the UK a homeowner is more likely to have a heating system that works with controls fitted correctly and in a uniformed manor which is not what you have here.




There are four other city and guilds quilified gas engineers in Ireland so be gentle with me as I'm a endangered species:D

2011

2011 wrote: »

You must be joking!
Look around you at the Celtic Tiger trail of destruction.
Ever hear of Priory Hall?

Commercial installs seem to be done to a very high standard and certainly look pretty but that does not seem to filter down to domestic installs.

You do have a problem in Ireland with spoofers and it's these men who seem to get into important positions on sites making a nonsense of things but I still think a proper trades person knows his/her limitations, there were very few gas engineers who really thought they were sparks even though they were told to go forth and electrify after sitting part P, only a fool thinks a quick course makes him a expert.

2011

gary71 wrote: »

Commercial installs seem to be done to a very high standard and certainly look pretty but that does not seem to filter down to domestic installs.

I would imagine that this is because in general:

1) It is policed - The work is checked and signed off
2) If the work is not up scratch the contractor does not get paid. Simples
3) Clear instructions and/or darwings are given.

It suggests to me that as per my previous post the real issue is policing & enforcement.
Once we have that it place the system works.

Perhaps a bit of enforcement might be no harm?

You do have a problem in Ireland with spoofers and it's these men who seem to get into important positions on sites making a nonsense of things but I still think a proper trades person knows his/her limitations

Yes we have some chancers.

there were very few gas engineers who really thought they were sparks even though they were told to go forth and electrify after sitting part P, only a fool thinks a quick course makes him a expert.

Agreed, but we have never suffered from shortage of fools :rolleyes:

There are very few gas engineers in Ireland full stop.
Those that are in Ireland are not recognised as the equivalent of an electrician (we have no equivalent).

No trade likes to have their skills watered down

With good reason.

it took me 4 years to qualify as a gas service engineer but yet in Ireland it's a 10 day course.

I thought that we had agreed that these are very different?

The two trades mix like oil and water with one usually blaming the other and nether taking ownership for any issues that might arise with each other's work leaving the home owner high and dry with he said she said, I know this because I am the one who calls to site to identify any installation issues from either side.

Here is an idea:
Let the electrician be responsible for all electrical work and the RGI be responsible for the installation of the boiler & associated pipework.
That is a very clear divesion of labour that works perfectly in commercial and industrial installations.

Now again I'm quite happy to agree only sparks should do the wiring it's not really a issue for me as nearly every heating system is wired by electricians but as the controllability and efficiency isn't very good due to a lack of understanding how are you going to fix it.

...and how long do you think it would take to train an electrician how to do this (bearing in mind that the RGI course is 10 days)?

frankmul

gary71 wrote: »

Imag

What I should of said was only heating engineers should be wiring heating systems

Could you define what is involved in wiring heating systems,
Design the control strategy, identifying the position for stats/sensors, first fixing, second fixing, commissioning of the controls.
How much of this would you see a non electrical heating engineer able to complete.
I think that wiring a heating system may have different meaning to different people

mikeyjames9

anything substantial you need separate trades with full apprenticeships in each discipline,preferably all under the one contract to prevent all the interface and commissioning issues which arise

the work is too complicated to have someone crossover into both disciplines with a short training course

maybe for "small "domestic gas jobs there can be a one-person solution with sufficient training