middle of the lane?

grogi · 04-09-2020 9:48pm

puddles22 wrote: »

Have had close encounters with cars pretty much every ride i've been out on the past few weeks, with some very close overtakes, a guy i met once suggested not to hog the edge of the road rather go to the middle as it makes sure the car cant overtake you if another car is coming .
What you all think of that? do you do it ?

I learned that when driving in Italy. If you don't leave room for making stupid things, they won't do stupid things.

When I find it is not safe to overtake me, I'll cycle like a complete ars, in the middle. When it is safe, I'll move over.

cletus · 04-09-2020 9:49pm

I cycle mostly country/back roads, very often they are only one and a half lanes wide, two cars passing would have to slow down and 'negotiate'.

I'll often take primary position here, but only where I've no space on my left if a motorist decides to squeeze me. The flip side of this is that I'll happily pull over into a gate/opening/wide bit of the ditch once it's available and let the car past me

magicbastarder · 04-09-2020 9:52pm

grogi wrote: »

When I find it is not safe to overtake me, I'll cycle like a complete ars, in the middle.

that's not cycling like an arse though, that's mere self-preservation.

Joey321 · 04-09-2020 10:08pm

@Kenmm, so it must be the same few cyclist that I see most days then, makes sense, yes it is my option, I say it the way I see it,

kenmm · 04-09-2020 10:15pm

Joey321 wrote: »

@Kenmm, so it must be the same few cyclist that I see most days then, makes sense, yes it is my option, I say it the way I see it,

Maybe you are unlucky. I'm not denying the behaviour you see, but I drive and cycle all over Dublin at different times.

All I'm suggesting is, have a look from their point of view. There might just be random sh!t you don't see.

Joey321 · 04-09-2020 10:28pm

I can hardly miss what there doing, have a birds eye view of what's on the road as I'm cycling close by, and see what obstacles are there, very few merit what happens on a daily basis, problems I see very few cyclist will call out what others are doing hence we have this them against us attitude. Of course we need better conditions and proper cycle rouths and they will come eventually but in the mean time cyclist need to take responsibility for there actions, and yes your right the majority do behave responsible as do the car drivers.

kenmm · 04-09-2020 10:41pm

Joey321 wrote: »

I can hardly miss what there doing, have a birds eye view of what's on the road as I'm cycling close by, and see what obstacles are there, very few merit what happens on a daily basis, problems I see very few cyclist will call out what others are doing hence we have this them against us attitude. Of course we need better conditions and proper cycle rouths and they will come eventually but in the mean time cyclist need to take responsibility for there actions, and yes your right the majority do behave responsible as do the car drivers.

No, I am all for breaking that us Vs them bs. I've been an annoying (unt enough time to people here and on motoring forums!

Some absolutely do cycle (and drive) with an absolute chip on their shoulder, almost willing things to happen to justify themselves. Some do it with helmet cams or dashcams. But some do it from a place if having been burned, ie they've been left hooked once too often. That's why (and now the 4th time I mention it and to bring it back on topic) that word negotiation from that video on the second or third post. It's the correct attitude. Plenty of looking around, clear signalling, eye contact. Move out and in as required.

The ones acting a dick, that deserves its own thread.
I

magicbastarder · 04-09-2020 10:41pm

well, that thread went places generating heat and not much light.
let that be an end to the talk of cyclists doing 'it' (whatever 'it' is) deliberately to annoy motorists; any further posts on that topic will be removed without warning. if you do think it's happening, there's not much we can do to address it here.

magicbastarder · 04-09-2020 10:48pm

anyway, i once heard primary position described as the line the driver's seat in a car, is on, on the road, and secondary position being the line the passenger seat would describe. if it is that, i think (as others have alluded to) that the lines the car tyres take is a more useful way of picking a line as they're the lines more likely to be clear of debris.
minor point, i know.

i typically take the inner tyre line, but depending on how fast a bend is, what sort of sightlines, etc., and how busy the road is both oncoming and approaching from behind, i can vary my position quite often.

04-09-2020 11:24pm

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Ok I'll bite.

What difference does it make?
The car still needs to overtake.
If you're over in the wheel track or out in the middle, they still need a clear oncoming lane to overtake.

Unless as a cyclist you're advocating hugging the kerb and letting vehicles squeeze past you with oncoming traffic.

When I'm cycling I consider that suicidal.

When I'm driving I refuse to do it.

There's plenty of places where a car can pass safely without needing too cross the center line

Wildly Boaring · 04-09-2020 11:44pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

There's plenty of places where a car can pass safely without needing too cross the center line

There's some

Average car is 2m wide
Minimum for a lane is 3.3m max of a standard lane is 3.7m. Be highly unusual for a lane to be over 4m wide.

A car legally has to pass by 1.5m or 1.0m
The cyclist has a width. 0.3 to 0.5m
The cyclist will be at least 0.5m off the kerb

So car 2.0, plus min overtake 1.0, plus cyclist plus space to kerb - it's tight.

I always cycle in over 50kph
Increase the above to 1.5m overtake and there really shouldnt be space.

Personally. Personally. If I'm in the left wheel track and we're all moving along steadily. I don't mind a car filtering past at a speed just above me. But they'd be well within the 1.5m.

Wishbone Ash · 04-09-2020 11:45pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

There's plenty of places where a car can pass safely without needing too cross the center line

I'm not sure what your point is. Of course there are plenty of roads where motorists can pass safely without crossing the center line but then It wouldn't be a close pass. We are referring to situations where motorists overtake where there isn't enough room instead of waiting and moving out to the other lane when appropriate to do so.

Brand_New · 04-09-2020 11:46pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

There's plenty of places where a car can pass safely without needing too cross the center line

Yes a car can usualy just about squeeze past on most roads and most situations.

But how many roads in an urban area have lanes where a car can pass while maintaining the recommended safe distance(1.5m) while not crossing the centre line?

magicbastarder · 04-09-2020 11:50pm

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

The cyclist has a width. 0.3 to 0.5m

i suspect that's an underestimate. 30cm shoulders would imply a child. i'm not particularly large and i'm probably just shy of 50cm across the shoulders?

Wishbone Ash · 04-09-2020 11:50pm

Joey321 wrote: »

.... but in the mean time cyclist need to take responsibility for there actions....

Because cyclists are putting other road users in danger on a regular basis?

magicbastarder · 04-09-2020 11:58pm

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Minimum for a lane is 3.3m max of a standard lane is 3.7m. Be highly unusual for a lane to be over 4m wide.

i suspect you'll really only get wide roads in ireland on single carriageway N roads or former N roads. R rated roads are rarely over 3.5m (at a rough guess, based on my experience)
and i've seen N roads which are narrower than the average R road, for what that's worth.

05-09-2020 12:00am

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I'm not sure what your point is. Of course there are plenty of roads where motorists can pass safely without crossing the center line but then It wouldn't be a close pass. We are referring to situations where motorists overtake where there isn't enough room instead of waiting and moving out to the other lane when appropriate to do so.

I answered a specific person that made a specific statement

Brand_New · 05-09-2020 12:00am

magicbastarder wrote: »

i suspect you'll really only get wide roads in ireland on single carriageway N roads or former N roads. R rated roads are rarely over 3.5m (at a rough guess, based on my experience)
and i've seen N roads which are narrower than the average R road, for what that's worth.

So essentially, if the cyclist is prepared to ride in the drain then a car can just about do a close pass without crossing the centre line.

Wildly Boaring · 05-09-2020 12:05am

magicbastarder wrote: »

i suspect you'll really only get wide roads in ireland on single carriageway N roads or former N roads. R rated roads are rarely over 3.5m (at a rough guess, based on my experience)
and i've seen N roads which are narrower than the average R road, for what that's worth.

Even the N roads are under 4m lanes generally. But you can cycle tight to the yellow line and a car can fit through. Used live beside the old N8 and used keep well over. Cars could fit. Old N3 similarly

There are exceptions to lane width. There were a spate of "extra wide" carriages put in put in the Celtic tiger. Think of new single carraige N roads built back then. Carrickmacross bypass etc. These had very wide lanes.

magicbastarder · 05-09-2020 12:05am

an example; probably a standard width for an R road:

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4209335,-6.296766,3a,46.2y,80.85h,77.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szzU9tnrY1CVJOY0PFk8W_Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

hard to tell, but maybe 50cm spare to the left of the car and a metre to the right. if the car hugged the centre line, you'd then have about a metre and a half to the left of the car - in which to allow the metre and a half passing distance *plus* the theoretical cyclist.

magicbastarder · 05-09-2020 12:07am

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

But you can cycle tight to the yellow line

this would be a possibility maybe on a road with a hard shoulder. but in general, cycling tight to the yellow line would be very, very unwise.

Wildly Boaring · 05-09-2020 12:10am

magicbastarder wrote: »

this would be a possibility maybe on a road with a hard shoulder. but in general, cycling tight to the yellow line would be very, very unwise.

Yeah I was specifically on about the likes of the old N8 Cahir to Mitchelstown of the old N3 at Dalgan.
Decent hard shoulders. Good long straights.

Not the fecking N2 anywhere south of Ardee

Wishbone Ash · 05-09-2020 12:12am

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

I answered a specific person that made a specific statement

Again, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Your reply was to a post where the other poster said it was necessary for a motorist to move to the other lane to pass safely. What relevance is your point about some roads being wide enough to pass safely without crossing the line? That's a bit like me responding to a post about heavy 'rush hour' traffic on the M50 by saying that it's light enough for me on my commute at 4am.

Brand_New · 05-09-2020 12:13am

It's very different when a road has a hard shoulder with no debris or other hazards.

Then a car can pass no problem as you can pull in from the main lane.

But this is a N road that is not at all unusual

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.61302,-7.078968,3a,15y,104.62h,85.53t/data=!3m9!1e1!3m7!1spF1GPzJ1VhuwyiOWLDFx7Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!9m2!1b1!2i38

Should a car overtake a cyclist here while remaining in lane?

Wildly Boaring · 05-09-2020 12:16am

Brand_New wrote: »

It's very different when a road has a hard shoulder with no debris or other hazards.

Then a car can pass no problem as you can pull in from the main lane.

Agreed. Sorry the waffle was just back to my primary school sums to show. There's actually very few places/lanes where a car can fit between you and the white line legally.

Wishbone Ash · 05-09-2020 12:16am

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

...Not the fecking N2 anywhere south of Ardee

Jesus there's miles and miles of adequate hard shoulder on the N2 south of Ardee. A prime example of a national primary route with almost zero hard shoulder is the A5 through Tyrone. Not pleasant to cycle on.

Wildly Boaring · 05-09-2020 12:18am

Brand_New wrote: »

But this is a N road that is not at all unusual

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.61302,-7.078968,3a,15y,104.62h,85.53t/data=!3m9!1e1!3m7!1spF1GPzJ1VhuwyiOWLDFx7Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!9m2!1b1!2i38

If I had any power in TII the N51 and N52 be declassified in the morning. Disasters

Brand_New · 05-09-2020 12:21am

It's also worth nothing that cars are actively sweeping debris into the hard shoulder where it stays due to lack of traffic on the shoulder.
So the opportunity to pull in does not arise as often as one many motorists would think.

Hard shoulders are primarily for emergency situations and it is not maintained like a driving lane by the local council.

Wildly Boaring · 05-09-2020 12:21am

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Jesus there's miles and miles of adequate hard shoulder on the N2 south of Ardee. A prime example of a national primary route with almost zero hard shoulder is the A5 through Tyrone. Not pleasant to cycle on.

God I hate the N2. Probably just from spending my youth driving tractors up and down it with mad truckers, mad nordies and mad Donegal cars every direction.
Shudder.

Yeah your right plenty hard shoulders about.
Just on it latlry near the brink in the rain and took a longer spin home just to get off it

magicbastarder · 05-09-2020 12:21am

Brand_New wrote: »

But this is a N road that is not at all unusual

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.61302,-7.078968,3a,15y,104.62h,85.53t/data=!3m9!1e1!3m7!1spF1GPzJ1VhuwyiOWLDFx7Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!9m2!1b1!2i38

by coincidence, this was one of the N roads i was thinking of which is barely wide enough for an L road.

another example of the N51; the lane is probably not even 3m wide?
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.6360742,-6.8229247,3a,75y,294.3h,68.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFZn0R4u0ShU6iV3wHqFPHw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

also the N71:

https://www.google.ie/maps/@51.586758,-9.4458788,3a,75y,158.91h,68.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZgOZcuMDJr7nKNgrht03gg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

middle of the lane?

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