middle of the lane?

puddles22

Have had close encounters with cars pretty much every ride i've been out on the past few weeks, with some very close overtakes, a guy i met once suggested not to hog the edge of the road rather go to the middle as it makes sure the car cant overtake you if another car is coming .
What you all think of that? do you do it ?

Luxman

Its called a defensive position, you're holding your space on the road, and it takes a bit of confidence to master it. But the result is that an overtake has to be a proper overtake, not a 'buzz' to squeeze past you. It does have the desired result. Some motorists mis-interpret what you are doing and will make their feelings known however

RobertFoster

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BapFZkvQHmY

Joey321

As a cyclist I would not be in favour of hogging the middle of the road, totally understand why someone would do it but would not recommend it,

crosstownk

It's something I do regularly to prevent the 'squeeze'. Most motorists are fine as they have no intention of overtaking but there's always one every once in a while - doesn't have any effect on me - I move left when I'm happy enough that there's enough room.

c.p.w.g.w

I typically take the position of middle of my lane, its allows lots of space and when cars come behind me and its safe to do so, i'll pull to the left and leave them pass if i feel its safe for me to do so...

But when i'm cycling through city, I always hold my position in the middle of the lane due to car doors, pedestrians etc

mousblaster17

puddles22 wrote: »

Have had close encounters with cars pretty much every ride i've been out on the past few weeks, with some very close overtakes, a guy i met once suggested not to hog the edge of the road rather go to the middle as it makes sure the car cant overtake you if another car is coming .
What you all think of that? do you do it ?

It depends. I dont let cars pinch me in. If a single car squeezes past me, I go into 'cycle defensively' mode and move a good bit out so they have to cross the middle of the road to get past me. I feel safer that way.

kenmm

RobertFoster wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BapFZkvQHmY

Never seen that video before, but it nails it really.

"Observation, Anticipation, Negotiation" - must remember that - too many cyclists and motorist fail badly on at least one of these.

Take the lane when possible/required, don't hog it when you don't need it. Also the act of moving in and out immediately makes you more visible and obvious, but as someone pointed out, takes a bit of practice.

lawrencesummers

puddles22 wrote: »

Have had close encounters with cars pretty much every ride i've been out on the past few weeks, with some very close overtakes, a guy i met once suggested not to hog the edge of the road rather go to the middle as it makes sure the car cant overtake you if another car is coming .
What you all think of that? do you do it ?

Not to be sidetracking things, because I’ve noticed More regular incidents myself but Is it because cyclists had the time to get used to quieter roads over the lockDown and now they are getting busier?

On the original question I tend to do it on some roads and not others, but never as far out as the middle.

crosstownk

Also, if I'm on a narrow country lane and a vehicle is approaching at speed in the opposite direction, I'll move out to the middle as it usually slows them down - at which point I move left again - especially if it doesn't slow them down!

Wishbone Ash

puddles22 wrote: »

Have had close encounters with cars pretty much every ride i've been out on the past few weeks, with some very close overtakes....

Co Donegal drivers? By a long margin, the most aggressive and anti-cyclist drivers in the country. Any time I cycle there I have similar experiences. Much less frequent in the rest of the country.

D13exile

I live and cycle in County Kildare with 40km cycle commutes to work in Meath. I always keep well into the left, even cycle on the hard shoulder if there's one available. There's no point trying to take a car on to prove a point as the car will always win. I understand the thinking about moving out and keeping yourself visible to cars but there'll always be aggressive a$$holes who'll try to intimidate you by driving too close. Just keep in and keep safe and enjoy your cycle.

kenmm

D13exile wrote: »

I live and cycle in County Kildare with 40km cycle commutes to work in Meath. I always keep well into the left, even cycle on the hard shoulder if there's one available. There's no point trying to take a car on to prove a point as the car will always win. I understand the thinking about moving out and keeping yourself visible to cars but there'll always be aggressive a$$holes who'll try to intimidate you by driving too close. Just keep in and keep safe and enjoy your cycle.

Its not about making a point*. Applying good "Observation, Anticipation, Negotiation" skills as outlined in the video will keep you out of trouble. By all means if you see a danger or opportunity to move over and let others pass go for it (Negotiation).

Also - the gutter/ hard shoulder has lots of crap and debris (especially in wetter months) - I wouldn't fancy the constant risk of punctures.

*Edit - It *shouldn't* be about making a point - but some cyclists inevitably do go about forcing every issue. I am excluding this subset of cyclists as they too are as big an issue as aggressive drivers.

seamus

kenmm wrote: »

Take the lane when possible/required, don't hog it when you don't need it.

That's a bit confusing.

The middle of the road is called the "primary" position. The edge of the road is called the "secondary" position.

You should always occupy the primary position unless there is a reason not to.

If there are no vehicles behind you, you should in general be in the primary position.

One of the most obvious exceptions to this is a wide N-road with a large shoulder where traffic may be coming from behind you at 80+ km/h. Even in this case though if you are travelling in excess of ~40km/h (think of the embankment descent on the N81), you should occupy the primary position for your own safety.

kenmm

seamus wrote: »

That's a bit confusing.

The middle of the road is called the "primary" position. The edge of the road is called the "secondary" position.

You should always occupy the primary position unless there is a reason not to.

If there are no vehicles behind you, you should in general be in the primary position.

One of the most obvious exceptions to this is a wide N-road with a large shoulder where traffic may be coming from behind you at 80+ km/h. Even in this case though if you are travelling in excess of ~40km/h (think of the embankment descent on the N81), you should occupy the primary position for your own safety.

ye - fair enough, I am just saying there are times I will move to secondary (badly phrased) - approaching a blind bend (like shown in the clip) or if there is a build up of traffic (equivalent of single up when in a group) and I am happy with the road conditions and to let some pass (negotiation).

My habit now, which I don’t think about any more, is to never cycle closer than a metre from the kerb or roadside or other obstruction. Whether in the city or the country. It’s enough of a space to dive into if necessary but at the same time you don’t annoy motorists too much by appearing to hog the lane

kenmm

Actually - to clarify further - when I said "Take the lane" - I mean right in the middle - my default position is probably 1/3 of the way in (sticking out enough to be seen and to avoid the dirt) -0 I move to full primary if I am approaching obstacles/ hazzards/ preparing for a right turn etc. That's what I mean about hogging. I will move in close to the kerb like in the example I gae above (build up of traffic/ let them pass) - this one is rare, as if they cannot get by when at 1/3 of the way, then the road probably isnt safe (but some roads are quite narrow, so I will allow for that).

kenmm

Basically - watch that video - like I say - I think it absolutely gets it right.

Wishbone Ash

D13exile wrote: »

... but there'll always be aggressive a$$holes who'll try to intimidate you by driving too close....

I think you've missed the point. 95% of drivers who engage in close passing do not set out to intimidate cyclists. They are just normal non-cycling people who don't realise that what they are doing is intimidating. By cycling out a little, they'll slow down and wait for an appropriate opportunity to pass.

My habit now, which I don’t think about any more, is to never cycle closer than a metre from the kerb or roadside or other obstruction. Whether in the city or the country. It’s enough of a space to dive into if necessary but at the same time you don’t annoy motorists too much by appearing to hog the lane

JMcL

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Co Donegal drivers? By a long margin, the most aggressive and anti-cyclist drivers in the country. Any time I cycle there I have similar experiences. Much less frequent in the rest of the country.

I grew up in Donegal (actually in Inishowen which takes the biscuit even by Donegal standards) and would agree. I don't make it up all that often these days, but was up with the bike last month for the first time in a few years, and I've never come across a bigger shower of asshats on the road. Much worse than a few years ago. Narrow mountain roads are being used as rat runs and I had multiple overtakes - frequently by vans or 4x4s - with no quarter given whatsoever

magicbastarder

JMcL wrote: »

I grew up in Donegal (actually in Inishowen

we could be related...

JMcL

kenmm wrote: »

Actually - to clarify further - when I said "Take the lane" - I mean right in the middle - my default position is probably 1/3 of the way in (sticking out enough to be seen and to avoid the dirt) -0 I move to full primary if I am approaching obstacles/ hazzards/ preparing for a right turn etc. That's what I mean about hogging. I will move in close to the kerb like in the example I gae above (build up of traffic/ let them pass) - this one is rare, as if they cannot get by when at 1/3 of the way, then the road probably isnt safe (but some roads are quite narrow, so I will allow for that).

The other time I always try to take the lane is on the approach to roundabouts. Anything less than primary will almost always result in the MustGetInFront brigade pulling in on top of you at the last second. You still get the occasional bellend even when taking primary, but at least then there's bail-out space on the left

kenmm

JMcL wrote: »

The other time I always try to take the lane is on the approach to roundabouts. Anything less than primary will almost always result in the MustGetInFront brigade pulling in on top of you at the last second. You still get the occasional bellend even when taking primary, but at least then there's bail-out space on the left

Roundabouts, parked cars, busy side streets, uneven surfaces, sweeping bends ahead, busy ped crossings (Peds stepping out often a danger), road narrowing and anywhere else!

And yes, mostly because of that.. must get ahead mantra some people have, even although it's often quicker to hold back then get ahead!

Wildly Boaring

Personally where I cycle depends on what type of road

In an urban area I'll take the middle of the lane. No way am I going near car doors. No way am I getting driven over by these fools who think they can squeeze past me with oncoming traffic.

More rural and wide. I tend to take the left wheel track of vehicular traffic. Cleanest of debris. Out enough from the verge to give comfort.

Rural, narrow (white line but just about) busy. Take the lane.

Rural, narrow and quite. Probably the wheel track again to avoid chips. These are the roads I aim for. Cycle where you like. Will often pull over a we bit if a car "stuck" back there and give them a wee wave through. Esp if a downhill coming. Don't want a dope in a Jeep up my hole on a descent

Wishbone Ash

JMcL wrote: »

I grew up in Donegal (actually in Inishowen which takes the biscuit even by Donegal standards) and would agree...

Yes, I should have clarified that I was referring to east Donegal - west Donegal drivers seem much better.

lawrencesummers

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Yes, I should have clarified that I was referring to east Donegal - west Donegal drivers seem much better.

Much better in this instance meaning less murderous?

triggermortis

I vary my road position depending on what the conditions are. Half my commute is single lane country road, so I'll be about a meter from the kerb then. The R132 has a shoulder for a lot of my route so I use that, but when I come to the roundabouts around Swords I take the middle of the lane. I always take the middle of the lane from Blakes Cross until the second roundabout as that road surface isn't great.

PhillySteak9

magicbastarder wrote: »

we could be related...

That makes three of us. I was up in Inishowen last month as well, and yes, lots of passing too fast and too close, even with a full open lane on the opposite side. Don't know why people do that.

magicbastarder

my father is from inishowen and the chances of my surname *not* matching JMcL's are slim to none i suspect.
i haven't cycled up in that part of the world in about 30 years probably.

Brand_New

Joey321 wrote: »

As a cyclist I would not be in favour of hogging the middle of the road, totally understand why someone would do it but would not recommend it,

I believe it would be illegal to cycling in the middle of the road.

Seth Brundle

Brand_New wrote: »

I believe it would be illegal to cycling in the middle of the road.

If you are saying that it is illegal to cycle in the iddle of the road (I presume you mean middle of the lane) then you're incorrect.
However it is possiblt to cycle in the middle of the road if you are overtaking something or on a country lane or I'm sure there are several other scenarios.

Brand_New

Seth Brundle wrote: »

If you are saying that it is illegal to cycle in the iddle of the road (I presume you mean middle of the lane) then you're incorrect.

No I'm talking about the road not the lane. Of course it's legal to drive or cycle within a lane.

Joey321

By cycling in the middle of the lane deliberately with a queue of cars behind you is not a sensible thing to do, find it very disturbing as a cyclist myself how much anger there is on here towards people driving cars, with that attitude there is always going to be hostility between both road users no matter what's put in place, from what I can see from been out there is both sides are guilty of offences eventhough both are trying to blame each other.

Yup don't need to be in the middle but you should have space on your left. I give myself a foot minimum. Maybe more if the roads in bad condition

Wildly Boaring

Joey321 wrote: »

By cycling in the middle of the lane deliberately with a queue of cars behind you is not a sensible thing to do, find it very disturbing as a cyclist myself how much anger there is on here towards people driving cars, with that attitude there is always going to be hostility between both road users no matter what's put in place, from what I can see from been out there is both sides are guilty of offences eventhough both are trying to blame each other.

Ok I'll bite.

What difference does it make?
The car still needs to overtake.
If you're over in the wheel track or out in the middle, they still need a clear oncoming lane to overtake.

Unless as a cyclist you're advocating hugging the kerb and letting vehicles squeeze past you with oncoming traffic.

When I'm cycling I consider that suicidal.

When I'm driving I refuse to do it.

Hrududu

Joey321 wrote: »

find it very disturbing as a cyclist myself how much anger there is on here towards people driving cars, with that attitude there is always going to be hostility between both road users no matter what's put in place, from what I can see from been out there is both sides are guilty of offences even-though both are trying to blame each other.

Yeah I know my primary worry on the roads are the cyclists getting angry at motorists. And not the motorists endangering cyclists lives.

Most people here are not talking about taking primary position to annoy anyone but to put themselves in the safest position.

But I do like the idea that we are all guilty of offences. As a cyclist the worst thing I can realistically do to a motorist is hold them up/piss them off. They can kill or injure me.

kenmm

Joey321 wrote: »

By cycling in the middle of the lane deliberately with a queue of cars behind you is not a sensible thing to do, find it very disturbing as a cyclist myself how much anger there is on here towards people driving cars, with that attitude there is always going to be hostility between both road users no matter what's put in place, from what I can see from been out there is both sides are guilty of offences eventhough both are trying to blame each other.

That's why it's phrased as negotiation. Looking, eye contact, moving out, in when safe to allow cars through etc. Some people inevitably will still be ass holes tho.. not much you can do about their attitude.

Brand_New

If there is no oncoming traffic the car can move to the other side of the road and safely overtake. You are not blocking by cycling in the lane.
There are very few lanes in Ireland wide enough to safely accommodate both a car and bike side by side.

Joey321

@Wildey Boaring if you don't know what wrong with deliberately cycling in the middle of a lane just to annoy moterist then the is a bigger problem out there than we all realise, Anyway off out for a cycle now, I hope I don't annoy too many cyclist, Happy cycling...

Brand_New

Joey321 wrote: »

@Wildey Boaring if you don't know what wrong with deliberately cycling in the middle of a lane just to annoy moterist

But it's not to annoy motorists, there just simply is not room for a car to safely overtake without crossing into another lane.
If you are in the middle of the lane you are not blocking the car from a safe overtake.

Wildly Boaring

Joey321 wrote: »

@Wildey Boaring if you don't know what wrong with deliberately cycling in the middle of a lane just to annoy moterist then the is a bigger problem out there than we all realise, Anyway off out for a cycle now, I hope I don't annoy too many cyclist, Happy cycling...

"Deliberately cycling in the middle of a lane just to annoy motorist. "

Your opinion.
Based on? Being a cyclist? Being a behavioural physiologist? A medium?

I've often cycled in the middle of the lane but never to annoy motorists.

Do you assume all in the middle of the lane do it to annoy or some or those on a Thursday?

Brand_New

I think there would be a big problem and very annoying if a cyclist was to move to prevent cars changing lane to overtake, I've yet to see that happen though.

magicbastarder

Joey321 wrote: »

deliberately cycling in the middle of a lane just to annoy moterist

this doesn't happen, or happens so rarely that it's barely worth talking about.

and it has no bearing whatsoever on the discussion here.

kenmm

magicbastarder wrote: »

this doesn't happen, or happens so rarely that it's barely worth talking about.

and it has no bearing whatsoever on the discussion here.

There absolutely are cyclists that seem to go out there way to make a point, but as you say, it's got little to do with this thread and shouldn't detract from the sensible advice given.

It really cannot be made any clearer than it was in that video. It's the third time I've mentioned it lol, but it's film of the year for me!!

Joey321

@. Magic, it was it was brought up here so it does have bearing on the discussion, read back

magicbastarder

who first raised it as an attempt to deliberately annoy motorists?

Joey321

Read back your the mod

Brand_New

I think one of the problems with this discussion is that "Riding in the middle of the road" means different things to different people.

It can mean the literal meaning of riding down the central median of the road.
It can also mean riding in the middle of a lane.
And finally it can also mean riding anywhere that's as tight to left side of the lane as possible or anywhere in between up to the point that is the middle of the lane.

Only the first option should be discouraged, the rest will depend on road conditions and it's often impossible to see the true nature of road condition from the seat of a car.
Let the cyclist pick the best line to safety and legally navigate the road just as a car would do.

kenmm

D13exile wrote: »

I live and cycle in County Kildare with 40km cycle commutes to work in Meath. I always keep well into the left, even cycle on the hard shoulder if there's one available. There's no point trying to take a car on to prove a point as the car will always win. I understand the thinking about moving out and keeping yourself visible to cars but there'll always be aggressive a$$holes who'll try to intimidate you by driving too close. Just keep in and keep safe and enjoy your cycle.

I already quoted it, here it is... peace out!

magicbastarder

Joey321 wrote: »

Read back your the mod

you are the first person to claim it was being done deliberately.
you seem to have misquoted Wildly Boaring, who did not make any claims about doing it to deliberately annoy motorists.