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Pro's and con's of Leaf

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12467…12

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    #92
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    unkel wrote: »
    I did the sums for myself for my specific details and I would be delighted to post them here in full detail if anybody is interested in them. Some people say Google is your friend. I say Excel is my friend :cool:
    BoatMad wrote: »
    As I'm an engineer , I like Data, in my own case I have detailed spreadsheet TCO calculations

    Spreadsheets at dawn!

    C'mon lads, stop threatening to post them and just post them! I'd like to see them and I'm sure others would too.


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    #93
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 65,133 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    There you go :)

    Adjusted down the interest to reflect the new PCP deal. Also adjusted down the on the road cash price. And as you can see, according to my calculations, the new Leaf would be cheaper to own than my 12 year old BMW...


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    #94
    njburke
    Registered Users Posts: 1,012 ✭✭✭njburke


    One thing we did that I'ld recommend before buying a leaf is to keep a log for a month or six weeks in your current car. Mrs kept a note pad. There was only one trip in excess of the leafs range, most were work commutes 78Km, i reasoned that even if the leafs battery capacity fell to 70% after 5 years, the leaf still had sufficient range.

    On the longer journeys, we did one spin to cork, FCP by 2 on the way down, granny charged whilst there then FCP by 2 to come back up. Its doable but if you have a second car and don't mind the 30 euros of diesel that an ICE requires. We've ICE'D it down the last few times.

    If the ESB want to charge for fast charging, grand, once they don't try to socialise the cost amongst all EVs, per use seems fair.


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    #95
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 65,133 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    njburke wrote: »
    even if the leafs battery capacity fell to 70% after 5 years

    The Leaf comes with an 8 year warranty on the battery. If capacity fell under 70%, it will be replaced / fixed for free

    And it has a modular design, meaning you can just replace parts of the battery, not the whole battery. Possibly even a DIY job with parts from eBay in a few years time...


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    #96
    njburke
    Registered Users Posts: 1,012 ✭✭✭njburke


    Ours is the 24KWh , a 151 , Battery warranty was five years to 70 %.

    Is it still 3 years warranty for the car battery excluded.?


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    #97
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 65,133 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Yep 3 years full manufacturers warranty.


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    #98
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    is it not 5 years for the 24 Kwh ?


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    #99
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,214 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Ted, you asked how long to QC.
    Our 30KW Leaf, from 22% to full in 40 mins.


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    #100
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,425 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Water John wrote: »
    Ted, you asked how long to QC.
    Our 30KW Leaf, from 22% to full in 40 mins.

    What's the max distance on a charge ? 250 so 22% is roughly 50k so on a trip from Dublin to cork you are looking at adding an extra hour .


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    #101
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,214 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    OH uses it to work etc. Have not used it for long trips. If it was a casual type of trip I wouldn't mind doing the Cork Dublin Cork run.
    It would mean 5 QC's in total, if nor over nighting.
    Add an hour + to each journey.
    But as it has been, I would generally have one stop any way.

    On business would probably use the diesel to get there and back.

    Might consider trading in the diesel for the next Gen if it can do the trip one way on a single charge.


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    #102
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 65,133 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    ted1 wrote: »
    on a trip from Dublin to cork you are looking at adding an extra hour .

    I do Dublin to Cork in about 1.5 hours if I ignore speed limits buy still drive safely. In a Leaf I'd say it's probably more like 3-4 hours if you don't want to arrive with an empty battery?


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    #103
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Water John wrote: »
    Ted, you asked how long to QC.
    Our 30KW Leaf, from 22% to full in 40 mins.

    That's to 100% ?

    80% in the 30 Kwh is about 100% in the 24 kwh probably a bit more.


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    #104
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,107 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    unkel wrote: »
    I do Dublin to Cork in about 1.5 hours if I ignore speed limits buy still drive safely. In a Leaf I'd say it's probably more like 3-4 hours if you don't want to arrive with an empty battery?

    See this thread for Cork,Dublin info

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=99509620&postcount=12


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    #105
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,214 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Thanks K, good info.
    Yeah Mad Lad full in 40 mins. Doesn't not slow down charging near fill. Seems linear 2% per minute. I must take it for a long run myself some day to get a good feel of the range. The range indicated I would think errs by about 25%.
    Every 7/8 Km travelled indicates a range drop of 10Km.
    As I say have only driven once.


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    #106
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I would say it takes a while for the range indicator to adjust do different changes in terrain , speed etc.

    I'd get about 1-1.2 Km per % in the 24 Kwh so you should definitely get more in the 30 Kwh.

    The first few % drop the quickest.


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    #107
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 65,133 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I would say it takes a while for the range indicator to adjust do different changes in terrain , speed etc.

    The range indicator adjusted pretty quickly during my test drive. After driving it normally for a while it said 15km. Then within a minute (and me doing 4 or 5 quick succession foot down accelarations) it went to --- :D

    I say I would be able to get the battery from 80% to empty between Lucan and Enfield (29km) no bother :D


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    #108
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    unkel wrote: »
    The range indicator adjusted pretty quickly during my test drive. After driving it normally for a while it said 15km. Then within a minute (and me doing 4 or 5 quick succession foot down accelarations) it went to --- :D

    The trick when the battery is low is not to be hard on the throttle because this is when the weaker group of cells show their weakness.

    Even though all the cells are matched as close as possible there'll always be a few runts in the pack. They're not all equal and this becomes apparent at low voltages and this is where the BMS has to act to catch these cells before they fall off the cliff as they say in the battery world and so this is observed when the % indicator shows say 15% and very quickly --- but you can delay this by being very gently on the throttle.

    But yeah, it wouldn't be hard to run that battery down with hard driving, it;s got the equivalent of 1.9 litres of diesel in the battery which is amazing it can travel so far !


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    #109
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 65,133 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Diesel has just over 10kWh per litre, so almost 2.5l in the battery, but yeah that is a fair comparison to make!

    Goes to show how efficient an EV is compared with ICE. Drive both normally but economically (without resorting to any hypermiling techniques or such) and you will get:

    Diesel: say 60MPG, so 100km will use 4.7l of diesel, or 48kWh
    Leaf: 100km will use most of the battery, say 20kWh

    That's a staggering 60% less energy consumed. And to think the Leaf weighs 1500kg, which is about 200 - 300kg more than a similar size diesel car

    And the fiscal aspect works as leverage on top of that: 1kWh of diesel costs about 50% more than 1kWh of night rate home electricity (and then there's the free charging of course)


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    #110
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    unkel wrote: »
    Diesel: say 60MPG, so 100km will use 4.7l of diesel, or 48kWh
    That's very optimistic for a diesel imho. There are 1732 diesel Golfs on fuelly and the average is around 48 imp mpg.


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    #111
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 65,133 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Yeah it's a bit optimistic. I tend to make my calculations conservatively when it comes to EV. A bit biased against EV. Then when the EV comes out clearly winning anyway, it makes the point stronger. Did the same in my spreadsheet that I posted here especially for you. Did you have a look at it? ;)


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    #112
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    unkel wrote: »
    Diesel has just over 10kWh per litre, so almost 2.5l in the battery, but yeah that is a fair comparison to make!

    Goes to show how efficient an EV is compared with ICE. Drive both normally but economically (without resorting to any hypermiling techniques or such) and you will get:

    Diesel: say 60MPG, so 100km will use 4.7l of diesel, or 48kWh
    Leaf: 100km will use most of the battery, say 20kWh

    That's a staggering 60% less energy consumed. And to think the Leaf weighs 1500kg, which is about 200 - 300kg more than a similar size diesel car

    And the fiscal aspect works as leverage on top of that: 1kWh of diesel costs about 50% more than 1kWh of night rate home electricity (and then there's the free charging of course)

    Though I was basing that on the 24 Kwh with 22 Kwh usable.


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    #113
    stesaurus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭stesaurus


    unkel wrote: »
    Diesel has just over 10kWh per litre, so almost 2.5l in the battery, but yeah that is a fair comparison to make!

    Goes to show how efficient an EV is compared with ICE. Drive both normally but economically (without resorting to any hypermiling techniques or such) and you will get:

    Diesel: say 60MPG, so 100km will use 4.7l of diesel, or 48kWh
    Leaf: 100km will use most of the battery, say 20kWh

    That's a staggering 60% less energy consumed. And to think the Leaf weighs 1500kg, which is about 200 - 300kg more than a similar size diesel car

    And the fiscal aspect works as leverage on top of that: 1kWh of diesel costs about 50% more than 1kWh of night rate home electricity (and then there's the free charging of course)
    You should post that up in the main motors section. I'd doubt most users would be aware of that


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    #114
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,107 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    unkel wrote: »
    The range indicator adjusted pretty quickly during my test drive. After driving it normally for a while it said 15km. Then within a minute (and me doing 4 or 5 quick succession foot down accelarations) it went to --- :D

    I say I would be able to get the battery from 80% to empty between Lucan and Enfield (29km) no bother :D

    I saw a Nissan engineer in a video say that the GOM is calculated based on the last 30secs of driving which explains why it changes so much

    Only consistent driving and terrain will give accurate results.


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    #115
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 65,133 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    s.welstead wrote: »
    You should post that up in the main motors section. I'd doubt most users would be aware of that

    Thanks for your endorsement of my post :)

    And I agree with you, I reckon most users of the main motors forum would not be aware of this. It is such as shame that many people in Ireland will continue buying new or second hand diesel cars, while an EV like the Leaf would be a better option for a lot of them. Potentially saving them thousands over the duration of their ownership. And giving us less cancer from diesel exhaust fumes.


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    #116
    josip
    Registered Users Posts: 13,722 ✭✭✭✭josip


    We would be a reasonably non-Luddite family and would be happy to try new technology if we (rightly or wrongly) considered it to be
    1. Environmentally more friendly (even slightly) than our current approach
    2. Not financially less attractive than our current approach
    3. At least nearly as practical as our current approach
    To that end we don't mind splashing out on CAPEX as long as OPEX can in theory be reduced.
    Eg. we've installed solar hot water panels and use a solar charger for the rechargeable batteries.


    EVs tick #1 and #2 for us, but #3 I've struggled with for a while.

    Our car usage is
    1. Dublin daily 30kms - could charge in work
    2. 1 trip a month of 142km down the country - could charge there and finally seems doable in 1 go with 30kw battery (173km, source US DoE) All other batteries would have required a stop slightly short of destination and no matter what others may think, kids don't need a coffee/rest stop after an hour and 15 minutes in a car at 8 o'clock in the evening.
    3. 2 trips a week of 142km to the midlands to work - not sure about the possibility of charging at the customer site, but if it was possible then same as point 2 above.
    4. We usually go to Greece in the summer. We take a week off to get there so we're not trying to do it in 30 hours. If anyone here could explain to me how we'd manage that trip in a 30kw Leaf I'd be interested.
    • Day 1 - Holyhead to London (480km - 4h) - hotel with no charging point
    • Day 2 - London to Amiens (300km -4h) hotel with no charging point
    • Day 3 - Amiens to Nice (1200km - 9h) - hotel has charging point
    • Day 4 - relax and enjoy Nice
    • Day 5 - Nice to Pula (832 km - 7h) Campsite with Electricity
    • Day 6 - Enjoy Pula
    • Day 7 - Pula to Dubrovnik (700km - 10h) hotel with no charging point
    • Day 8 - Dubrovnik to Greece (900km - 11h) Apartment with on street parking for a month
    6 weeks later return.


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    #117
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,214 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Is the 142Km a round trip length, with no charging?
    With that I might wait until 2018.
    The Greek Odyessy, whoah, firstly your kids are angels. would not look at it with an EV ATM. But that is just me. Others have done Europe, certainly Berlin. They will probably post.


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    #118
    josip
    Registered Users Posts: 13,722 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Water John wrote: »
    Is the 142Km a round trip length, with no charging?
    With that I might wait until 2018.
    The Greek Odyessy, whoah, firstly your kids are angels. would not look at it with an EV ATM. But that is just me. Others have done Europe, certainly Berlin. They will probably post.

    Both 142kms (co-incidence) are each way so 284kms round trip.
    Yeah, the kids are easy going and we're very thankful for that.
    We play audio books for them (Famous Five, Roald Dahl...) on any journey over 50km and they get completely engrossed.
    To the point where have to mute the entertainment and shout, "look, Alps out the left window!"
    In return for their patience during the trip they get a month of 30C sea and pool, so they know which side their bread is buttered on :D


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    #119
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,214 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    I would be getting anxious on the 142 Km.
    The Greek trip would take too long, too many FC stops. Every 2 hours basically.
    The whole thing is fine if you have 2 cars.


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    #120
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    lease a car not an option on a Continental trip ?


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    #121
    September1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭September1


    I think you could change route to use ferries and trains that carry cars more.


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