Pro's and con's of Leaf

unkel

unkel wrote: »

I don't believe the value of the Leaf will change much at all when that happens. Should the €5k subsidy disappear, second hand prices will go up noticeably though.

I can't see and Public charger fees having much of an impact when most people will do 98% of their charging at home costing pittance. Unless they depend on the public charging and can't charge at home then they imo shouldn't yet have an ev.

unkel

Exactly. The cost of fuel is so cheap compared to ICE that even if you only charged at home and at the full rate (twice the price of the night rate) it still only costs a fraction to fuel with still massive savings

Saw a Leaf taxi while on my test drive in Lucan. Smart man that taxi driver :cool:

Go for it unkel. Also I would really suggest you should get an SV model as the base model is missing all the cool gadgets like remote monitoring of the charge level (handy when you're waiting for the charge to finish at a coffee shop) and more importantly the more efficient heat pump heater. The latter will only use a tiny fraction of power on those cold winter days compared to the XE's heat pump. In practice I find that there is almost no noticeable range reduction because of heating when you have the heat pump fitted.

Water John

Yeah the SV is well worth it. We're very happy with ours. OH drives it, sadly I lost out. I'll buy the next Gen.
If they charge a few euro for a fast charge, it won't matter. But don't tell the powers that be that.

n97 mini

unkel wrote: »

Saw a Leaf taxi while on my test drive in Lucan. Smart man that taxi driver :cool:

Was it one of the NRC cars sponsored by Nissan and/or ESB? There is some sort of trial going on I think.

BoatMad

Water John wrote: »

Yeah the SV is well worth it. We're very happy with ours. OH drives it, sadly I lost out. I'll buy the next Gen.
If they charge a few euro for a fast charge, it won't matter. But don't tell the powers that be that.

Charging a " few euros " for FCP isn't possibly the issue , making it more expensive then diesel , as was proposed , is bonkers

Water John

Leaf taxi in Cork too. Driver doesn't mind the down time for charge.

BoatMad

Water John wrote: »

Leaf taxi in Cork too. Driver doesn't mind the down time for charge.

One in Gorey too . It's a very shortsighted business model , based almost exclusively on the notion that fcps will be free. If fcps turn out to be as dear as diesel , the business model fails

BoatMad change the record.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

BoatMad change the record.

The B side is similar

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

The B side is similar

I didn't ask for the "B" side, I said change it !

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

I didn't ask for the "B" side, I said change it !

Looked through my collection , all seem similar , rather like my music collection too. , sorry bout that , that's the trouble with " convictions " , they tend to be " convictions " !

njburke

unkel wrote: »

Some people here might be interested in the summary of some sums I did a couple of days ago: it costs roughly the same in total cost of ownership to buy a brand new base Leaf and keep it for 6 years as it does to keep driving my 12 year old 6 cylinder petrol auto BMW 5-series (12k km per year)

Came to the same conclusion myself before I bought the Leaf. In my case the comparison was between a 1.6 fabia tdi over 5 years. The normal motoring economics just don't seem to fit the leaf. Why more aren't sold is beyond me.

BoatMad

njburke wrote: »

Came to the same conclusion myself before I bought the Leaf. In my case the comparison was between a 1.6 fabia tdi over 5 years. The normal motoring economics just don't seem to fit the leaf. Why more aren't sold is beyond me.

Two reasons

1. Lack of understanding of EVs
2. Few people do TCO calculations

unkel

BoatMad wrote: »

Two reasons

1. Lack of understanding of EVs
2. Few people do TCO calculations

Your statement about the Leaf as a taxi seems a bit crude. Did you do the TCO calculations on that? If so, would you mind sharing them here? I wouldn't mind a few scenarios: full normal electricity rate, half rate (night rate), free fast charging, fully charged fast charging, whatever combo of those you would see fit

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

Your statement about the Leaf as a taxi seems a bit crude. Did you do the TCO calculations on that? If so, would you mind sharing them here? I wouldn't mind a few scenarios: full normal electricity rate, half rate (night rate), free fast charging, fully charged fast charging, whatever combo of those you would see fit

I spoke to a leaf taxi driver , he relies extensively on the FCP , as it not practical for him to use home charging or the scp network as the car is unavailable for too long during the day. He was doing around 50k km annually in the leaf with the taxi business

At present he enjoys the benefit of free " fuel " , which is clearly offsetting the slightly greater capital cost. Fuel and depreciation, being the primary costs of the taxi business.

Even then , the taxi driver had just given up on use of the leaf , as he felt he was going through the battery life very quickly and accessing the FCP when he needed it was becoming more problematic with more EVs around.


As I said my understanding was clearly if FCP costs approached diesel , there would be little incentive to consider an EV. I suspect this is true of many potential EV purchasers too.

unkel

BoatMad wrote: »

I spoke to a leaf taxi driver

You spoke to a taxi driver? You accuse others of not doing their sums? Maybe you should do some first and then come back to us

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

You spoke to a taxi driver? You accuse others of not doing their sums? Maybe you should do some first and then come back to us

I fail to see your point , the taxi driver mentioned that fuel for a taxi is a major cost and the leaf had the advantage of free fuel. I pointed out to him that there was a consideration that fcps usage could be charged at a rate approaching or even exceeding the price of diesel. He conceded that in that circumstances it would not make any sense to use an EV ( as it currently is constituted )

He then proceeded to tell me he was discontinuing using the leaf as a taxi as he was concerned as to the rate he was consuming battery life. ( and the resulting depreciation )

Hence its clear to me, that the business case was based around frequent and cheap access to fcps. This is also the anecdotal evidence from the taxi in Gorey too.

This is how I arrived at my conclusions , ie that a taxi business based in the assumption of free and regular FCP access was flawed as a business model.

I didn't suggest that every EV taxi TCO and business model was flawed just the ones relying on those facts I mentioned

I would suggest that if you have any facts to the contrary , you should produce then rather then engaging the in ad hominem attacks

Water John

Taxi driver in Cork is delighted with his.

I presume that counts as legitimate evidence, in this forum.

unkel

I did the sums for myself for my specific details and I would be delighted to post them here in full detail if anybody is interested in them. Some people say Google is your friend. I say Excel is my friend :cool:

Just to remind you of what you posted:

BoatMad wrote: »

Two reasons

1. Lack of understanding of EVs
2. Few people do TCO calculations

BoatMad wrote: »

I spoke to a leaf taxi driver

There really is nothing there, to be blunt. Come back with some real life scenarios / calculations!

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

I did the sums for myself for my specific details and I would be delighted to post them here in full detail if anybody is interested in them. Some people say Google is your friend. I say Excel is my friend :cool:

Just to remind you of what you posted:

There really is nothing there, to be blunt. Come back with some real life scenarios / calculations!

You seem to deliberately wish to mislead

My two points were in relation to the general reason as to why more EVs aren't sold even though for many ordinary motorists the TCO calculations make sense.

In my own case I have published some of my deliberations in relation to my own computations of TCO.

As I'm an engineer , I like Data, in my own case I have detailed spreadsheet TCO calculations

My comments in relation to the taxi are entirely based on conversations and the assumptions the said taxi men stated . Since I not running a taxi , it would be impossible for me to do detail calculations


Perhaps rather then just rabbiting on being " adversarial " you might post some facts of your own

Again my comments around taxis was based on the conversation thT suggested the taxi needed regular and low cost access to fcps. This is not a TCO determination , merely a flawed business case based on a particular set of financials that exist today but may disappear

unkel

BoatMad wrote: »

you should produce then rather then engaging the in ad hominem attacks

Ad hominem, you accuse me of? Seriously? I can produce a very detailed financial breakdown of the pros and cons of me buying an EV like the Leaf if you want?

I'm personally quite in favour of actually going out and buying a brand new Leaf. My late father would have liked me to go for it and buy one.

unkel

BoatMad wrote: »

I'm an engineer , I like Data, in my own case I have detailed spreadsheet TCO calculations

My comments in relation to the taxi are entirely based on conversations and the assumptions the said taxi men stated

For goodness sake man, why did you post the taxi man stuff and not your own proper spreadsheet calculations?????

ted1

OP do you plan on using the car for journeys over 120km? If so then the car is not for you . The range may be 160 but you need to factor in the detour to get charging and then the extra hour charging.
Basically for every hour you spend in a motorway factor in another hour charging.

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

For goodness sake man, why did you post the taxi man stuff and not your own proper spreadsheet calculations?????

Are you deliberately trolling this section

you persist in attributing the wrong things

I first replied to this comment

Originally Posted by njburke View Post
Came to the same conclusion myself before I bought the Leaf. In my case the comparison was between a 1.6 fabia tdi over 5 years. The normal motoring economics just don't seem to fit the leaf. Why more aren't sold is beyond me.

with this answer

Originally Posted by BoatMad View Post
Two reasons

1. Lack of understanding of EVs
2. Few people do TCO calculations

I then made a comment in relation to the effect of Leafs being used as a taxi

all I said there was that it was a flawed bussines logic : that was based on free and regular FCP access. ( Based on my conversations with a taxi owner )

If you do the Taxi TCO today on free FCPS then it all looks good I suspect


Yet you keep accusing me of not doing my own TCO calculations ( bit late now as unlike you I actually own a leaf )


MY own TCO deliberations are published elsewhere on this forum, you can peruse them at your leisure , In my case they show that a Fabia 1.6 or smaller car will always be cheaper then a Leaf, but I was criticised for taking a cheaper ICE car as a comparison

The Leaf 30 Kwh can do 140 Kms easily, I can do this in the leaf without much reduction in speed, 200 kms in the 24 kwh isn't much of a hassle and should easily be met with qa 20-25 min qc, 250 Kms should be easily do-a-ble in the 30 kwh leaf with the same charge.

Getting back to the taxi driver, by the time there might be public charging then the range will be up to about 300+ kms so this will be a lot of cheap motoring from his home charge point. Even if he needs a few top ups he's saving a lot on fuel + maintenance.

Continuously bringing up ESB charges that may or may not not exist in the future is absolutely pointless.

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The Leaf 30 Kwh can do 140 Kms easily, I can do this in the leaf without much reduction in speed, 200 kms in the 24 kwh isn't much of a hassle and should easily be met with qa 20-25 min qc, 250 Kms should be easily do-a-ble in the 30 kwh leaf with the same charge.

Getting back to the taxi driver, by the time there might be public charging then the range will be up to about 300+ kms so this will be a lot of cheap motoring from his home charge point. Even if he needs a few top ups he's saving a lot on fuel + maintenance.

Continuously bringing up ESB charges that may or may not not exist in the future is absolutely pointless.

It can do 140 easily, but there might be a charger at 140 so you may have to detour for 120 and then detour

1.5 years and there should be a 300-350 km range Leaf option if you frequently do trips over 250 kms, and don't want to QC if not then the 30 Kwh Leaf should be more than good enough for one trip of 250 kms with one QC.

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

if not then the 30 Kwh Leaf should be more than good enough for one trip of 250 kms with one QC.

Dublin to Cork is 265 km so you need more than one stop , how long does a QC take? How many chargers are in the motorway between the two ? How often are they beng used and as more EVs are sold how much longer are you queuing to use the motorway ones

There's about 10 DC serving that route from Dublin to Cork, more than do-a-ble. Regarding queuing, that's luck of the draw I'm afraid. Definitely need minimum of 2 along motorway routes. Though some motorway routes that have new garages have one either side of the motorway, so you might only have to cross over to the other side if possible.

We take the diesel for these rare trips of this distance so it's a non issue for us, however others may have access to an ICE from a family member.

So if these trips are frequent and 1-2 stops is too inconvenient then I'd wait until the 300+ Km range electrics appear in 2018 but at 120-130 kph this could be 250 kms, that's still a big difference. 250 - 300 kms from the start is a lot of kms. 1.5 years isn't far away really.

These 300+ km range electrics will most likely be capable of charging at 100+ Kw though how quickly 100+ Kw chargers are installed is anyone's guess. We need a lot of funding for the network. Unfortunately the Opel Ampera-E isn;t yet capable of more than 50 Kw DC charging, GM said because there is no infrastructure. But I'm guessing this shouldn't be much of an issue with a 60 Kwh battery which is AC cooled.