Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 Updated Mod Note Post 1

mickmackmcgoo · 04-05-2016 10:35PM

In other news
Celtic challenge result South Kilkenny 5-18 Waterford City 0-2
That's a serious beating , I would have thought we would be stronger than that at 17 year old level

meathhurler48 · 04-05-2016 11:17PM

I am becoming tired of posters complaining about our present style of set up. I have been supporting Waterford since 1948, probably not many of us left. My first game was the 1948 final v Cork in Thurles.The game has continuously evolved ever since. Our 1956/1963 team under John Keane revolutionised a game of brute force by introducing pace and skill. We should have won more even with that current Tipp team, Jimmy Doyle etc.

When I came out of Croke Park on Oct 4th. 1959 I never imagined that I would have to wait this long without another AI.

At present we have more strength in depth than we have ever had. If the system works, great. Our problem in the 1998/2008 was that we didn't have strength in depth.

At this stage all I want is to see Waterford win another AI before I depart. If it's the worst ever final and we win 0-2 to 0-1!I don't care. The present squad can then go on to win again in style.

robopaddy2 · 05-05-2016 12:48AM

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

In other news
Celtic challenge result South Kilkenny 5-18 Waterford City 0-2
That's a serious beating , I would have thought we would be stronger than that at 17 year old level

Yea, but waterford city is what, 7 clubs? Let's not confuse this with our county u 17 side.

robopaddy2 · 05-05-2016 12:53AM

Tipp minors had a big win over clare tonight. Shows what a good win ours was over Tipp last week. A home tie now v Limerick in the semi and with 2 big games under our belt we should be in with a big shout. Win and these lads stay hurling for the summer

Orizio · 05-05-2016 02:55AM

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

In other news
Celtic challenge result South Kilkenny 5-18 Waterford City 0-2
That's a serious beating , I would have thought we would be stronger than that at 17 year old level

Eh Waterford sides regularly get hammerings at these tournaments.

Orizio · 05-05-2016 02:56AM

robopaddy2 wrote: »

Tipp minors had a big win over clare tonight. Shows what a good win ours was over Tipp last week. A home tie now v Limerick in the semi and with 2 big games under our belt we should be in with a big shout. Win and these lads stay hurling for the summer

Supposed to be a very poor Clare team. Championship is wide open for anyone to win honestly, Cork are nominal favourites but will have had a three months wait. Really anyone can win this.

Cake Man · 05-05-2016 03:11AM

Good result for Tipp in Ennis alright, definitely shows it wasn't a bad result beating them recently.

Limerick probably not much better or worse than us it would seem going by a basic form line (Lk beating Clare, Wd beating Tipp and Tipp beating Clare), not that it really means much. With minor games it's very much all on the day. The fact that we're not out again until the end of June after the leaving certs kind of means the two games we've played to date won't count for much given the time between games. Same for Tipp, Limerick and Cork as well I guess.

Home advantage hopefully to be worth a few points, would be great to win and have a shot at Munster (for all our good work at this grade in recent years, we only have one Munster title to show for it and that was way back in 09).
Also a guaranteed AI quarter final at a minimum. Somebody else pointed out recently that Munster runner-up play Ulster champions so you'd have to expect the Munster side to come through there.

Deskjockey · 05-05-2016 08:16AM

Ok, bear with me on this...

I know Brick is a great ball winner in the forwards, and has been a tremendous servant over the years, but is there an argument to be made that the likes of another big unit like Devine would do as good a job up there and in contrast to Brick would be able to strike the ball as well as having the option of passing to someone with more space.

Looking at the match last weekend there was a particular play where Brick was in possession in a bit of space but just hadn't the confidence to go for his point 40 yards out and looked to pass to someone in a worse position than him. At times he seems as if his only play is to get the ball and then win the free. When it works it's great, and our free taker pops it over, but when you see him winning the ball and then immediately taking the ball into contact and going straight to ground, sometimes I wonder would we be better off having someone who can win the ball and who also poses a scoring threat.

Heresy I know, but I'd be interested in people's views

Deise2016 · 05-05-2016 09:43AM

Deskjockey wrote: »

Ok, bear with me on this...

I know Brick is a great ball winner in the forwards, and has been a tremendous servant over the years, but is there an argument to be made that the likes of another big unit like Devine would do as good a job up there and in contrast to Brick would be able to strike the ball as well as having the option of passing to someone with more space.

Looking at the match last weekend there was a particular play where Brick was in possession in a bit of space but just hadn't the confidence to go for his point 40 yards out and looked to pass to someone in a worse position than him. At times he seems as if his only play is to get the ball and then win the free. When it works it's great, and our free taker pops it over, but when you see him winning the ball and then immediately taking the ball into contact and going straight to ground, sometimes I wonder would we be better off having someone who can win the ball and who also poses a scoring threat.

Heresy I know, but I'd be interested in people's views

Brick is a bit of a strange player really.

A fantastic servant to Waterford and a very very good player but as you've said he doesn't seem to actually be able to strike the ball.

Is he a scoring threat?

No

Is Jake Dillon a scoring threat at the moment?

No

Given the above there is certainly a case for Devine to start in place of either of those.

When Pauric Mahoney and Shanahan are fully fit as hopefully they will be come June 5th then Brick's position should come under threat.

At the moment we're probably playing with too many players who offer little scoring threat, combine that with our defensive tactics and we'll fall short come August.

blue note · 05-05-2016 09:59AM

I think you lads are misunderstanding how unique what brick brings is. He's not just a big lad (in fact I don't think he's even particularly big - 5.11 maybe?). But his ability to win ball is only rivalled by a couple of people in his generation. You suggest Devine can win ball like brick because he's big? I'd be a big fan of Devine but he wouldn't win as much as brick in the air or on the ground.

And the brick very rarely loses it too. Fair enough he doesn't shoot often, but he almost always finds someone to pass to.

I'm not sure where everyone would go and who would lose out if everyone was fit, but if I don't think you could drop brick and not feel the loss. It's possible you could make up for it in other ways - mahony offers something very different if fit, but bricks ball winning ability is a massive attribute.

danganabu · 05-05-2016 11:11AM

meathhurler48 wrote: »

The present squad can then go on to win again in style.

I think this sentence is what is adding to a lot of peoples frustration, Waterford have as much talent as any county and many people, myself included I must admit, feel that the negative tactics been employed are both defeatist and are also holding back some extremely talented hurlers.

Waterford's current system will not win an AI and I would put a lot of money on that!

blue note · 05-05-2016 11:22AM

God I'd love to win an all Ireland playing like this.

Firstly to prove it can be done. In spite of the fact that our results have been excellent everyone insists it's because of the time of the year. We were beaten last year by better teams on the day, not by our own system.

Secondly to see all the other counties then try to emulate it and either insist that what they're doing is completely different or insist that it is now entertaining. Or if they don't have the players to implement it they'll still insist that the system is rubbish and they'd rather lose the traditional way than play this muck.

And finally, because it's absolutely ****ing love to win an all Ireland!

danganabu · 05-05-2016 11:58AM

PTH2009 wrote: »

Attendance did seem higher than was announced ???

A regular occurrence in Semple, I was actually there once cant remember what game, think it was V Galway 2014 and the announcement of the attendance was actually greeted with a huge outburst of laughter it was so far off the mark.

There is a automated clock in the counting room under the old stand that is supposed to record every time a pedal is pressed in the stiles, it certainly needs to be replaced as it doesn't record half of them. Both the Munster Council and Croke Park have been on to them over it and the figures announced are not taken as the official attendance for accounting records.

mountgomery burns · 05-05-2016 01:04PM

danganabu wrote: »

A regular occurrence in Semple, I was actually there once cant remember what game, think it was V Galway 2014 and the announcement of the attendance was actually greeted with a huge outburst of laughter it was so far off the mark.

There is a automated clock in the counting room under the old stand that is supposed to record every time a pedal is pressed in the stiles, it certainly needs to be replaced as it doesn't record half of them. Both the Munster Council and Croke Park have been on to them over it and the figures announced are not taken as the official attendance for accounting records.

Would the scanners not pick up the amount of people going through in an all ticket event?

Tramore84 · 05-05-2016 01:04PM

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Some thoughts on the general state of play:

1) Progression

I have noticed a lot of dismay at no obvious signs of progression this year. I'm not exactly sure what was expected but I'd like to offer a counterpoint or two to the worries about the attack. This time last year, Maurice Shanahan and Paudie Mahony were the two best forwards on the Waterford team. Could you imagine last year knowing they wouldn't be available against Tipp in Thurles this year, or in a league semi and final? Do you think we would have thought we'd beat Tipp, score 3-23 against Limerick or be a last minute of additional time free from winning the league again?

Last year Shane Bennett played very well for his age but he has come on a lot in the space of a year and his been outstanding this year. Patrick Curran only came late into the panel, and has made some strides in 12 months. He was outstanding in the air on Sunday, tough as nails. Their mettle will be tested in the championship but with Maurice back you go from a forward line dependent on one player to one with options. There's room for improvement but let's not forget it's May.

I think some people believe the backline and midfield cannot get any better than last year but the very addition of a fit Darragh Fives is huge, even in terms of the options it gives. And I think there was plenty of scope for improvement all the same and I think the duly have improved.

2) The System

There really is too much talk about this. An extra man comes from midfield to cover center back while the center back drops in front of the full back. A corner forward roams around the middle to provide support play, and pace to attack and create overlaps in the opposition defense. And when not in position the team work to get back, work very hard. It's really not that complicated, intricate or indeed original. But it is effective and it has helped cultivate a belief that we can win every day we go out. Which was some turnaround from 2014.

But it cannot be used as the basis for how every game is won/lost. At the end of the day, the team did everything right except put the ball over the bar on Sunday. I agree that playing with reduced numbers and deeper lines means that when the ball moves quickly up the field sometimes a long range shot is the only or most convenient option. But I do think on Sunday there was some poor shooting from play and particularly from frees. What I think is being missed though is that when you work so hard to create chances and win frees it can get on top of you fairly easily when you miss a few. I believe there was a chain reaction on Sunday to that, and the confidence was dented. That can happen any day you go out, god knows there were days we hit plenty of wides in the heyday of Waterford hurling's attacking prowess. And there was no system to blame then!

The talent and work rate of the players first and foremost wins them games, how they setup (as has been proven by some imitations) merely complements their abilities.

3) Contenders

Now the most bemusing thing of all is the fact that we are being written off in some quarters to not being able to win later in the summer, that ultimately we are heading down the same road as last year. The bottom line is Waterford have not played a championship match since Kilkenny last year. They won the league already last year, so I think there's this expectation that unless they win every game by 10 points this year they haven't improved and it will be the same story.

I think that is beyond unrealistic. Ultimately, they cannot improve on last year's championship until they actually play in this year's championship. There is a tendency too I think to laud displays of great attacking flair where defense is neglected and bias towards it where great defense isn't heralded the same way. Clare beating Kilkenny a prime example of that, it was bizarre to see three pundits on Seo Spoirt on Friday tipping Clare to win. Despite what Waterford have done in the past year, a unanimous verdict in favour of Clare. Case and point really.

Moreover, we know enough about the heartbreak a leaky defense can cause. It's got a very talented Tipperary team beaten on more occasions in big matches now than bears mentioning. And further still, there are plenty of question marks over a lot of teams. Tipperary are not contenders according to their own, would not rule them out but at the same time it's hard to see what has been found that has not been there in the last 5 seasons. Galway could still be contenders, it's not beyond them, but it will be a tough road for them. Clare might well be, they are still missing a few but again they have more to prove than Waterford in my opinion.

And Kilkenny are still rightfully the favourites and are until they are knocked out, but the bottom line is Tyrell is gone, Power is gone, Aylward is injured, Mick Fennelly managed to get himself fit 3 times last year and was massive but you're expecting a lot to think that can continue, and Larkin has not hit a ball in the first 5 months of the year. It's not getting any easier for them, and the assumption that they'll all be available is exactly that. And when you assume...etc

If Waterford keep bringing the tenacity to matches the way they have done so far this year and can stay as relatively injury free as they have been to be fair in the past two seasons, then they will be contenders. And in May, there is no more than you can ask for.

Agreed. Waterford players are basically being criticised for working hard for each other, is there not an irony in this given that previous teams were criticised for being too individualistic?. Its no coincidence that we are now as consistent as we have ever been, everyone has bought into the work ethic. We should be very proud of the way these players consistently work for each other in every game.

PTH2009 · 05-05-2016 02:06PM

Can feel a Galway match for us this summer. A team we have a 100% championship victory record against

By law of average they will beat us sometime, same can be said for us against Kilkenny and Tipperary.

Galway are steeped with there draw. They play the winners of the Leinster group stage in the Leinster quarter final and then the winners of the Laois/runners up of the group stage qf in the semis. As expected they win those they will be guaranteed at least an all Ireland quarter final place.

The qualifiers are and always will be a dangerous place to be. For the sake of the Waterford players we must must win on June 5th to escape these. Drawing Wexford or Dublin (or god forbid Kilkenny) in the round 1 of the qualifiers could do fatal damage to our ambitions for the year.

In the last 5 years we were in the qualifiers twice (2013,2014).

2013 was a older system and we got drawn with the hardest team possible in our section Offaly and after a hard fought win we beat Westmeath only to lose out to Kilkenny after ET for a place in the All Ireland QF that year.

2014 with a new championship system introduced we got a tricky draw at home to laois and then lost out to our bogey team Wexford in the 2nd Round

deiseach · 05-05-2016 02:18PM

When it comes to the Brick, I always think of a Tipperary's fans outburst I heard during the League game against them in 2013: “stop hitting it anywhere near the f***in’ Brick!” There was respect there, envy even. And that don't come easy from Tipperary folk. A great.

deiseach · 05-05-2016 02:30PM

The recorded attendance looks about right to me. It's a good idea to close the terraces, although it means my wife can't be allowed go. She considers it a crime against humanity to be sitting in the same stand as even one opposition fan. Thousands of them = World War III.

danganabu · 05-05-2016 03:19PM

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Would the scanners not pick up the amount of people going through in an all ticket event?

It would, or at least should! I have never worked the stiles there for an all ticket game so not really sure.

danganabu · 05-05-2016 03:29PM

deiseach wrote: »

When it comes to the Brick, I always think of a Tipperary's fans outburst I heard during the League game against them in 2013: “stop hitting it anywhere near the f***in’ Brick!” There was respect there, envy even. And that don't come easy from Tipperary folk. A great.

Noel McGrath was shocking the same day, don't think he even made it to half time.

robopaddy2 · 05-05-2016 05:15PM

Deskjockey wrote: »

Ok, bear with me on this...

I know Brick is a great ball winner in the forwards, and has been a tremendous servant over the years, but is there an argument to be made that the likes of another big unit like Devine would do as good a job up there and in contrast to Brick would be able to strike the ball as well as having the option of passing to someone with more space.

Looking at the match last weekend there was a particular play where Brick was in possession in a bit of space but just hadn't the confidence to go for his point 40 yards out and looked to pass to someone in a worse position than him. At times he seems as if his only play is to get the ball and then win the free. When it works it's great, and our free taker pops it over, but when you see him winning the ball and then immediately taking the ball into contact and going straight to ground, sometimes I wonder would we be better off having someone who can win the ball and who also poses a scoring threat.

Heresy I know, but I'd be interested in people's views

I think it's only when Brick goes we'll appreciate how much he brings. To be honest I was in awe of him on Sunday. His work rate is just phenomenal. How he keeps going I don't know. Absolute punishment on the body. Running, tracking down, harrying. Using every ounce of energy he has. And it's not in vain either, he will always contribute something to every play he's involved in. What you would call a headless chicken, brick is the polar opposite. He is so efficient with his energy to quote conor mcgregor. On Tom Devine I hate to be hard on the lad but I thought he was poor when he came on. He is not as near effective as Brick, different gravy altogether. His shooting radar was way off and didn't track his man well at all. But he's good at getting on the ball, there's definitely potential there. But he's light years off brick

PTH2009 · 05-05-2016 05:35PM

robopaddy2 wrote: »

I think it's only when Brick goes we'll appreciate how much he brings. To be honest I was in awe of him on Sunday. His work rate is just phenomenal. How he keeps going I don't know. Absolute punishment on the body. Running, tracking down, harrying. Using every ounce of energy he has. And it's not in vain either, he will always contribute something to every play he's involved in. What you would call a headless chicken, brick is the polar opposite. He is so efficient with his energy to quote conor mcgregor. On Tom Devine I hate to be hard on the lad but I thought he was poor when he came on. He is not as near effective as Brick, different gravy altogether. His shooting radar was way off and didn't track his man well at all. But he's good at getting on the ball, there's definitely potential there. But he's light years off brick

I think brick may go at the conclusion of this year not long followed by Kevin Moran(about 2/3 years left I'd say), SOS and iggy. Noel Connors is about my age and I consider 26 old so he will be retired soon (about 5 more years)

Some ex Waterford players retired relatively young (Mullane, Stephen Molumphy, Eoin Kelly, Eoin McGrath, Shane Walsh) while the legend Tony Browne played for years

I would of tipped Devine to take over bricks role when he goes

Who's coming up underage that may be on the senior Panel in next year or two ?

JesusRef · 05-05-2016 09:01PM

Brick may not be the best Hurler in the country...
But he is without a doubt one of the best players

The guy is phenomenal - he makes the opposing backs life hell - he will chase down lost causes all day and he is a brilliant tackler (he made P.Mahers life hell in the munster final last year even though he was out-numbered)
He is so smart on the ball and always makes good use of possession, how many times has been surrounded by 3-4 players and still got a ball away, he is obviously a brilliant leader - and leads in the best way - by example.

Remember he was out midfield giving plenty of it to the likes of Jerry O'connor more than ten years ago, still at it.

I have so much admiration for the guy - what a man

Alf Tupper · 05-05-2016 10:48PM

How anyone could question the Brick is sacrilege. This lad is a phenomenon.

The Brick is our latter day Tom Cheasty, unwieldy with a hurley but oh so effective and a natural leader.

He is our go to guy. We'll only really miss him when he's gone.

Forgive the pun, but the Brick is the stone the builders rejected. He is central to everything we do, on and off the field.

He's the MAN. Lads like him only come around once in a generation.

In years to come when players have come and gone, the Brick will be remembered and spoken fondly of in the same way as Flynner, Ken, Dan and Tony etc,

Dick phelan · 06-05-2016 01:49AM

This year is the best chance at an all Ireland we have had in years imo, People will say the team is not quite there yet however when you look at the opposition around i cannot see why we shouldn't believe we can beat everyone, KK are still the team to beat but there not a patch on the team that dominated for so long, There first team is still outstanding but as a squad they lack real depth, Galway seem a bit of a mess atm, they have the players but i really don't see them having a great year this time around, Tipperary, i'v watched them numerous times during the League, they are a quality team but again not as good as the one that had the likes of Kelly, Corbett ect, Cork are a mile off what they once were, Limerick are still at least a year away from being real contenders imo, Clare along with KK i see as possibly the toughest opposition, quality forwards and real depth to the squad. The reason i say this is our best chance in years is because imo there is no real outstanding team around. While we might improve again next year i expect the likes of Limerick, Galway probably Tipp to be stronger then what i see this year, we're by no means favorites but at our best i think we win the AI.

Tramore84 · 06-05-2016 09:32AM

I don't agree with that Brick is indispensable. Lads he used to stand out because of his fitness and hurling intelligence but his place in the side should not be guaranteed anymore. His ball striking is nit great and for a guy who is great in the air, i never saw him win even 50/50/of his own ball against KK in championship.Think he is playing well this year but dropping him shouldnt be out of the question if his form dips.

JesusRef · 06-05-2016 09:54AM

Tramore84 wrote: »

I don't agree with that Brick is indispensable. Lads he used to stand out because of his fitness and hurling intelligence but his place in the side should not be guaranteed anymore. His ball striking is nit great and for a guy who is great in the air, i never saw him win even 50/50/of his own ball against KK in championship.Think he is playing well this year but dropping him shouldnt be out of the question if his form dips.

the same applies to every player on every team, if they are not playing well and don't deserve a spot you have to hand the jersey to the next guy.

Not sure you are singling our brick at this moment, he is playing very well and is vital to out numbered forward line functioning, maintaining possession, drawing in defender and creating overlaps etc

robopaddy2 · 06-05-2016 10:26AM

Going back to the minors lads, a good win and a decent minor team this year, but I fear it's our last decent group for a while, looking at what's coming behind them. I'm close to the underage development setup myself and the one thing we need to do is get the Dungarvan schools back involved in the Harty cup. It has been a huge breeding ground for us at underage level in recent years, however Dungarvan haven't had a team in a couple years as the CBS is too small to compete by itself and the combined schools were banned following their dominance in 2012/13. We only have 2 schools being DLS and Blackwater who realistically have a small enough catchment area that they are not going to be Competitive every year. Looking at our senior starting 15 on Sunday, particularly the lads who have broken through over the past few years, it's not to be underestimated the role that schools hurling has played in the development of these lads. Playing county minor you might only get a game or 2 but Harty Cup allows 4 or 5 tough competitive games over a 2 or 3 year period and that is where many of our young players went from strength to strength. I'm surprised that we have simply rolled over and accepted the Munster PP council's decision on this to penalise the combined colleges side for having a strong group in 2012 and 2013, however it seems west Limerick colleges are allowed enter a team. There really is too much at steak, we will fall back behind the other Munster counties again sooner rather than later if this isn't addressed... hopefully the schools themselves recognize the role they can play

cornerboy · 06-05-2016 10:39AM

Agreed RoboP re the colleges set up. The combined Dungarvan teams allowed young guys from small rural clubs to come through and develop in a higher level enviornment than they would experience in their clubs many of which are football orientated. Guys from Modeligo, Brickeys, Bonmahon, etc contributed hugely to the Minor AI and have carried on through the ranks.

conditioned games · 06-05-2016 11:22AM

The Munster council must be a very sad organisation if the only reason they can put forward for banning the combined Dungarvan schools team was because they actually won the Harty in 2012/2013 when a strong group came through.

They should look at entering into the Leinster competition where there are about 8/9 combined schools teams including an Antrim schools team.

Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 Updated Mod Note Post 1