The Hazards of Belief

Custardpi · 25-04-2016 08:40PM

fran17 wrote: »

Correct.What the BBC do not tell us,of course,is that its illegal because of a British law which still remains in the country.

While I'm all for sticking it to Perfidious Albion Bangladesh has been independent since 1971. Surely they could have found time to reform laws from the colonial era by now.

MrPudding · 26-04-2016 07:00AM

Custardpi wrote: »

While I'm all for sticking it to Perfidious Albion Bangladesh has been independent since 1971. Surely they could have found time to reform laws from the colonial era by now.

How long did it take Ireland to reform all the British laws?

MrP

recedite · 26-04-2016 08:18AM

MrPudding wrote: »

How long did it take Ireland to reform all the British laws?
MrP

A lot longer than the British

fran17 · 26-04-2016 08:57AM

Custardpi wrote: »

While I'm all for sticking it to Perfidious Albion Bangladesh has been independent since 1971. Surely they could have found time to reform laws from the colonial era by now.

Well in 2013 the country rejected a UNHCR call to decriminalise it so I'm assuming,just assuming mind you,that it's the will of the people.

Custardpi · 26-04-2016 09:37AM

fran17 wrote: »

Well in 2013 the country rejected a UNHCR call to decriminalise it so I'm assuming,just assuming mind you,that it's the will of the people.

That would tend to be my guess too.

fran17 · 26-04-2016 09:56AM

Custardpi wrote: »

That would tend to be my guess too.

Indeed.I never could understand lgbt Irelands paradoxical stance of bashing Christianity but welcoming in muslin refugees,including Bangladeshi,with open arms.I guess it's one of life's little mysteries.

Lurkio · 26-04-2016 10:17AM

fran17 wrote: »

Indeed.I never could understand lgbt Irelands paradoxical stance of bashing Christianity but welcoming in muslin refugees,including Bangladeshi,with open arms.I guess it's one of life's little mysteries.

You mean the paradox of hating the sin but welcoming the sinner?

And aren't you rather presuming that every Bangladeshi is (a) muslim and (b) dedicated to hating gay people?

Weren't you yourself opposed to gay marriage fran? Wouldn't you complain if you were left to die in a war because of your religion, Fran?

Custardpi · 26-04-2016 10:19AM

fran17 wrote: »

Indeed.I never could understand lgbt Irelands paradoxical stance of bashing Christianity but welcoming in muslin refugees,including Bangladeshi,with open arms.I guess it's one of life's little mysteries.

While I'm not familiar with the exact stance of LGBT groups in Ireland on the issue (I don't think it's something they've been particularly vocal about) there is a tendency among some on the left to excuse & pander to the thuggish elements of Islamism.

In Britain recently there was the incident at Goldsmith University where Maryam Namazie, an Atheist human rights campaigner was rudely heckled & jeered by the student Islamic Society when she tried to give a presentation about the plight of the bloggers in Bangladesh. Afterwards the university's Feminist & LGBT societies issued statements saying that they supported the hecklers against Namazie's "islamophobia".

This tendency to excuse such bullying, intimidatory behaviour is part of what Maajid Nawaz has dubbed the "Regressive Left" & on this issue essentially involves casting Muslims as perpetual victims who regardless of how badly individuals may behave in the name of their ideology must always be seen as a helpless, uniform mass, criticism of which is "islamophobic" or even "racist". Such beliefs are by no means universal among the Left in general or among those in the LGBT community but loud proponents of them are certainly to be found in student politics & the hectoring Twittersphere.

silverharp · 26-04-2016 10:37AM

Lurkio wrote: »

You mean the paradox of hating the sin but welcoming the sinner?

And aren't you rather presuming that every Bangladeshi is (a) muslim and (b) dedicated to hating gay people?

Weren't you yourself opposed to gay marriage fran? Wouldn't you complain if you were left to die in a war because of your religion, Fran?

its become a little pathological though no? , there have been a couple of rapes of open border activists , one was a guy and his stance hadn't changed after and I think even felt sorry for his rapist but I think he should excuse the rest of us that don't want to see a decrease in social standards because of letting high risk groups into one's country

Lurkio · 26-04-2016 10:41AM

silverharp wrote: »

its become a little pathological though no? , there have been a couple of rapes of open border activists , one was a guy and his stance hadn't changed after and I think even felt sorry for his rapist but I think he should excuse the rest of us that don't want to see a decrease in social standards because of letting high risk groups into one's country

....so somebody was the victim of a crime but didn't decide to blame all for the offences of one and you're saying hes the one who is pathological?

JPNelsforearm · 26-04-2016 10:48AM

Lurkio wrote: »

....so somebody was the victim of a crime but didn't decide to blame all for the offences of one and you're saying hes the one who is pathological?

He didnt even blame the perpetrator, yeah he's pathological.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/norwegian-rape-victim-feels-guilty-the-man-who-raped-him-was-deported-a6975041.html

"A Norwegian man who was raped by a migrant has said he felt “guilt” after his attacker was deported.

Karsten Nordal Hauken, who describes himself as feminist and anti-racist, was sexually attacked five years ago. "

"“But I also got a strong sense of guilt and responsibility. I was the reason why he should not be left in Norway, but rather to face a very uncertain future in Somalia.

“He had already served his sentence in prison. Should he now be punished again? And this time much harder?”

"I do not feel anger toward my assault man, for I see him most as a product of an unjust world. A product of an upbringing marked by war and deprivation.

I stand rock solid in my opinion that the people he needs our help. I want us to continue to help refugees with such a background.

I have been a victim of an injustice and a dark part of the world that we are largely shielded from here at home. But I have yet reconciled myself that it happened to me, here in Norway. For I am a human being first, and not a Norwegian. No, I'm part of the world, and the world is unfortunately unfair.
http://www.nrk.no/ytring/jeg-ble-voldtatt-av-en-mann-1.12852714

fran17 · 26-04-2016 10:56AM

Lurkio wrote: »

You mean the paradox of hating the sin but welcoming the sinner?

And aren't you rather presuming that every Bangladeshi is (a) muslim and (b) dedicated to hating gay people?

Weren't you yourself opposed to gay marriage fran? Wouldn't you complain if you were left to die in a war because of your religion, Fran?

While Islam's stance is hate the sin and kill the sinner?
Well 90% of Bangladeshi's are muslin and evidence would strongly lead one to conclude they are,let's say,less tolerant than the Irish.
Yes I opposed gay marriage as did nearly 40% of the country.
What I'm saying is,why after fighting so long and hard for recognition would the lgbt community actively campaign for and expose young lgbt people to the dangers of,in particular,muslim men in Ireland?

Absolam · 26-04-2016 11:00AM

Perhaps they're not so closed minded as to think that all, or even most, maybe not even many, muslim men are a danger to young lgbt people?

Custardpi · 26-04-2016 11:01AM

Fran, while I'd certainly agree with you that conservative Sunni Islam is worse for LGBT people than the thankfully watered down version of Catholicism practiced by most in Ireland today do you not think you're being just a tad hypocritical by on the one hand decrying an overtolerance for homophobic Islam while at the same time failing to support equal marriage yourself?

Lurkio · 26-04-2016 11:19AM

fran17 wrote: »

While Islam's stance is hate the sin and kill the sinner?
Well 90% of Bangladeshi's are muslin and evidence would strongly lead one to conclude they are,let's say,less tolerant than the Irish.
Yes I opposed gay marriage as did nearly 40% of the country.
What I'm saying is,why after fighting so long and hard for recognition would the lgbt community actively campaign for and expose young lgbt people to the dangers of,in particular,muslim men in Ireland?

Why Fran? Do you think they and you deserve to die for not agreeing with gay marriage? (presuming they disagree)

Lurkio · 26-04-2016 11:20AM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

He didnt even blame the perpetrator, yeah he's pathological.

Bit odd that, but regardless, blaming all for the crime of one is still wrong.

Custardpi · 26-04-2016 11:33AM

Lurkio wrote: »

Bit odd that, but regardless, blaming all for the crime of one is still wrong.

While not being too familiar with the case cited above if one person's crime is informed by cultural/religious beliefs which are shared by many in his/her community would it not be perfectly natural & indeed rational to be at least wary of those with a similar mindset? This is not "blaming all for the crime of one" but rather acknowledging that backward ideas about sexual entitlement rarely arise in a complete vacuum & that we should at least question whether the young man was motivated purely by his own will or whether his upbringing or social attitudes within the Somalian community played a part.

Absolam · 26-04-2016 11:40AM

Are our own rapists similarly indicative so? Perhaps we should consider not only restricting the immigration of these backwards foreigners, but also the emigration of our backwards selves? For the good of the world, like.

Custardpi · 26-04-2016 11:51AM

Absolam wrote: »

Are our own rapists similarly indicative so? Perhaps we should consider not only restricting the immigration of these backwards foreigners, but also the emigration of our backwards selves? For the good of the world, like.

Do you believe that social & cultural attitudes in Ireland towards sex, intercommunity relations & other matters are no better than those in Somalia? Are the citizens of a fairly peaceful & prosperous state (recent difficulties not withstanding) likely to pose an equal or greater integration challenge than those coming from a wartorn area of the world with a far more fervent support for religion?

As regards rapists who have grown up under Irish cultural norms I've no problem with an honest debate about what produces such people (which includes social, cultural & religious attitudes in Irish society) as well as comprehensive sex education which fosters respect in relationships with the aim of reducing it as much as possible.

Absolam · 26-04-2016 12:31PM

I believe we have criminals who have committed crimes quite similar to the one mentioned and we don't appear to be relating it to our social & cultural attitudes towards sex, intercommunity relations & other matters so far as to prevent people who didn't commit those crimes moving to other countries. But then I suppose we're not backwards foreigners, we're those lovable rascal Paddies

fran17 · 26-04-2016 12:34PM

Absolam wrote: »

Perhaps they're not so closed minded as to think that all, or even most, maybe not even many, muslim men are a danger to young lgbt people?

Perhaps not,perhaps it's an acceptable risk.But do you feel that this one of the hazards of belief regarding Islam?As per title of thread.

Absolam · 26-04-2016 12:40PM

fran17 wrote: »

Perhaps not,perhaps it's an acceptable risk.But do you feel that this one of the hazards of belief regarding Islam?As per title of thread.

Do I feel being raped by a Muslim is a hazard of belief? About as much as being raped by a Christian is I suppose. Though in fairness, I imagine it's a hazard that has less to do with belief and more to do with sexual inclination.

fran17 · 26-04-2016 12:40PM

Custardpi wrote: »

Do you believe that social & cultural attitudes in Ireland towards sex, intercommunity relations & other matters are no better than those in Somalia? Are the citizens of a fairly peaceful & prosperous state (recent difficulties not withstanding) likely to pose an equal or greater integration challenge than those coming from a wartorn area of the world with a far more fervent support for religion?

As regards rapists who have grown up under Irish cultural norms I've no problem with an honest debate about what produces such people (which includes social, cultural & religious attitudes in Irish society) as well as comprehensive sex education which fosters respect in relationships with the aim of reducing it as much as possible.

What religious attitudes in Ireland that produce rapists are you alluding to?

Absolam · 26-04-2016 12:41PM

Is that a can of worms you're holding there?

Custardpi · 26-04-2016 12:44PM

Absolam wrote: »

I believe we have criminals who have committed crimes quite similar to the one mentioned and we don't appear to be relating it to our social & cultural attitudes towards sex, intercommunity relations & other matters so far as to prevent people who didn't commit those crimes moving to other countries. But then I suppose we're not backwards foreigners

If people in Ireland generally held backward attitudes to such matters why would the government prevent people who shared such beliefs from moving to other countries? Would they not simply be proud of Irish people exporting their attitudes (assuming governments are generally representative of a population's beliefs)? In the case of Somalia that country's government is not really in a position to prevent people from leaving given the turmoil in that area in recent decades.

If other countries have concerns about the cultural attitudes of Irish people & society & how that would affect the integration prospects of Irish immigrants then yes they are perfectly within their rights to voice such concerns & to look at ways in which potential problems within the Irish community might be addressed.

As regards the "backwards foreigners" remark do you believe that all societies, cultures, religions etc are no better or worse when it comes to matters like sex, gender relations, relations with other communities etc or can one acknowledge that some societies have progressed (however imperfectly or incompletely) in their ideas, understanding & philosophies? Have the great liberal advances of the post war era essentially left us no better off than countries which have not undergone such an evolution in ideas?

Custardpi · 26-04-2016 01:07PM

fran17 wrote: »

What religious attitudes in Ireland that produce rapists are you alluding to?

My comment was in reply to what looks like whataboutery & cultural relativism in Absolam's posts. I suspect his post was essentially intended to draw an equivalence between attitudes in a far more conservative developing country community & attitudes in an Ireland which is rapidly (though not rapidly enough in my view) moving away from the religious dogma of the Catholic Church.

By my indicating my complete comfort with religious/cultural attitudes of Irish people being held to a high standard both at home & abroad I intend to refute his ridiculous claim that my desire to at least question whether the crime of the Somalian in this case was in part influenced by cultural/religious attitudes within Somalian society was based merely on his being a "backward foreigner".

Since you ask however can I assume that as a Catholic (I'm guessing based on probability that's what you are, apologies if I'm incorrect) you fully support sex education which demystifies & deshames the act of sex, promotes gender equality & fosters an attitude of mutual respect & support within relationships, whether they be one night stands, more long term couplings, marriage (both straight & gay) etc?

A confusion over boundaries, consent, interpersonal communication as well as misunderstanding over one's own body & desires may well produce individuals who either feel entitled to violate others or lack the understanding to know when they are doing so. Religion is one of the forces which can contribute to such confusion.

Indeed, up until the 1990s (IIRC) in Ireland (a country heavily informed by Catholic morality) there was no offense of rape within marriage. Would it be outlandish to question whether this attitude of entitlement to married women's bodies extended more generally in its influence upon gender relations? Would it be equally/more outlandish to ask the extent to which such attitudes have entirely vanished from all corners of Irish society?

Lurkio · 26-04-2016 03:41PM

Custardpi wrote: »

While not being too familiar with the case cited above if one person's crime is informed by cultural/religious beliefs which are shared by many in his/her community would it not be perfectly natural & indeed rational to be at least wary of those with a similar mindset? This is not "blaming all for the crime of one" but rather acknowledging that backward ideas about sexual entitlement rarely arise in a complete vacuum & that we should at least question whether the young man was motivated purely by his own will or whether his upbringing or social attitudes within the Somalian community played a part.

If we were to take into account backward ideas about sex, gender roles and so on, large swathes of the planet would be locked out. Now one could argue that's the way it should be, but the fact is that these attitudes are used as a stick not to beat one race, or nationality, but one religion, which they are in no way confined to. I've never heard anyone call for a ban on Zimbabwean citizens, or those from Uganda to been blocked from travelling to Europe because of the societal attitudes there, for instance. It raises the question as to how much of it is about women/gay people and how much of it is about muslim bashing - fran17 there is a blatant example, but there are others.

fran17 wrote:

Perhaps not,perhaps it's an acceptable risk.But do you feel that this one of the hazards of belief regarding Islam?.

Its a hazard of belief as regards a number of religions, yours (whatever it might be) included. Should you be barred from access to Sweden or Germany because of your "backwards" attitude towards gay marriage? More importantly, should you be denied refugee status from a genuine threat based on those views?

Lurkio · 26-04-2016 03:42PM

Custardpi wrote: »

While not being too familiar with the case cited above if one person's crime is informed by cultural/religious beliefs which are shared by many in his/her community would it not be perfectly natural & indeed rational to be at least wary of those with a similar mindset? This is not "blaming all for the crime of one" but rather acknowledging that backward ideas about sexual entitlement rarely arise in a complete vacuum & that we should at least question whether the young man was motivated purely by his own will or whether his upbringing or social attitudes within the Somalian community played a part.

If we were to take into account backward ideas about sex, gender roles and so on, large swathes of the planet would be locked out. Now one could argue that's the way it should be, but the fact is that these attitudes are used as a stick not to beat one race, or nationality, but one religion, which they are in no way confined to. I've never heard anyone call for a ban on Zimbabwean citizens, or those from Uganda to be blocked from travelling to Europe because of the societal attitudes there, for instance. It raises the question as to how much of it is about women/gay people and how much of it is about muslim bashing - fran17 there is a blatant example, but there are others.

fran17 wrote:

Perhaps not,perhaps it's an acceptable risk.But do you feel that this one of the hazards of belief regarding Islam?.

Its a hazard of belief as regards a number of religions, yours (whatever it might be) included. Should you be barred from access to Sweden or Germany because of your "backwards" attitude towards gay marriage? More importantly, should you be denied refugee status from a genuine threat based on those views?

Links234 · 26-04-2016 03:48PM

fran17 wrote: »

Indeed.I never could understand lgbt Irelands paradoxical stance of bashing Christianity but welcoming in muslin refugees,including Bangladeshi,with open arms.I guess it's one of life's little mysteries.

You mean accepting refugees who are under threat of being hacked to death? Like, the very subject you're talking about is LGBT rights activists being hacked to death, and it's puzzling you why Irish LGBT people might welcome people fleeing the threat of, you know, being hacked to death for their sexuality?

The only mystery here is how this is a mystery to you.

Custardpi · 26-04-2016 04:04PM

Links234 wrote: »

You mean accepting refugees who are under threat of being hacked to death? Like, the very subject you're talking about is LGBT rights activists being hacked to death, and it's puzzling you why Irish LGBT people might welcome people fleeing the threat of, you know, being hacked to death for their sexuality?

The only mystery here is how this is a mystery to you.

To be fair to Fran I think what he is (in a somewhat confused & contradictory way) alluding to is the tendency of many on the Left (& LGBT activists have generally though perhaps imperfectly been placed in that classification) to be over enthusiastic about immigration & integration issues, particularly in relation to conservative Islam. It is my understanding that Bangladesh has become way more radical in recent years than it used to be, possibly due to Saudi/Pakistani influences.

If that is indeed the case then there is at least a possibility that some of those seeking to come to the West from Bangladesh may hold deeply intolerant Wahhabi influenced views which may in some cases pose problems for integration.

It would be naïve to assume that all those or even a majority of those claiming refugee status from Bangladesh were Atheists or LGBT activists facing death for holding those views, although one should of course acknowledge that even those holding problematic Islamist beliefs may themselves have quite legitimate human rights concerns which justify the granting of refugee status - these are complicated issues involving the balancing out of the West's moral obligations & the challenges of integration & inter-community harmony.

The Hazards of Belief

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