The Hazards of Belief

recedite · 23-04-2016 07:05AM

Oh look... Merkel gets a medal for promoting freedom of speech and saving Europe from something.

JPNelsforearm · 23-04-2016 08:27AM

recedite wrote: »

Oh look... Merkel gets a medal for promoting freedom of speech and saving Europe from something.

LOL at the "free speech" medal, the country with the most restrictive speech laws in Europe, that is in the process of allowing a foreign state to pursue a prosecution of a German citizen for satire....

JPNelsforearm · 23-04-2016 09:18AM

Sikh politician assassinated for, well, being a Sikh.
http://www.dawn.com/news/1253730/pti-minority-mpa-gunned-down-in-buner

Cabaal · 23-04-2016 09:19AM

its certainly a hazard of not believing in stuff

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-36119151

A university professor has been hacked to death in Bangladesh, in an attack police say is similar to a number of killings of secular bloggers and atheist activists in the past months.

MrPudding · 23-04-2016 09:46AM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

LOL at the "free speech" medal, the country with the most restrictive speech laws in Europe, that is in the process of allowing a foreign state to pursue a prosecution of a German citizen for satire....

Well, the law is there and it would appear that there is, at least, an arguable case. I will hold my outrage until he is, is he actually is, convicted and actually receives any punishment that is more than token.

My understanding is the German government is in the process of repealing this law, this is good. But, if a law is in place one can't simply decide whether or not to apply it, if there is an arguable case to answer, even if we do not agree with it, then it should probably be pursued, that is the rule of law.

MrP

JPNelsforearm · 23-04-2016 10:35AM

MrPudding wrote: »

Well, the law is there and it would appear that there is, at least, an arguable case. I will hold my outrage until he is, is he actually is, convicted and actually receives any punishment that is more than token.

My understanding is the German government is in the process of repealing this law, this is good. But, if a law is in place one can't simply decide whether or not to apply it, if there is an arguable case to answer, even if we do not agree with it, then it should probably be pursued, that is the rule of law.

MrP

The law isnt the issue, its Merkals public endorsement of the prosecution. How can you receive a free speech medal if you are not personally tolerant(regardless of your legal responsibilities/obligations) of free speech.

MrPudding · 23-04-2016 12:13PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

The law isnt the issue, its Merkals public endorsement of the prosecution. How can you receive a free speech medal if you are not personally tolerant(regardless of your legal responsibilities/obligations) of free speech.

Where has she endorsed the prosecution? I don't mean to be picky but her authorisation of the prosecution is not the same as her endorsement of it.

I did not read a great deal about this, but I did seem to recall a certain reluctance on Merkals' part in allowing the prosecution to proceed, I am short on time and this is the first link that came up. I suspect given your posts and normal sources the Guardian probably isn't to you taste, but I think the article serves to show Merkals' view on this. I will take a few quotes.

Merkals wrote:

In a constitutional democracy, weighing up personal rights against freedom of the press and freedom of expression is not a matter for governments, but for public prosecutors and courts

the Guardian article wrote:

The chancellor expressed “grave concerns” about the prosecution of individual journalists in Turkey, as well as growing limitations to the right to protest, but emphasised Germany’s close diplomatic ties with the country.

In relation to a piece of law allowing the prosecution to be requested

the Guardian article wrote:

Merkel said on Friday that she considered the law unnecessary, and that legal steps would be taken towards deleting it from the penal code within the next two years.

To me that does not seem like a person endorsing the prosecution. Was there pressure for her to approve it? Possible, maybe even probably, but the fact remains, the law is on the books and it is up to the court to decide if the comedian is guilty of any crime. Perennially I think it is ridiculous and this particular law is up there with blasphemy laws in terms of ridiculousness.

MrP

JPNelsforearm · 23-04-2016 12:32PM

I have no preference for sources, so long as they tell the whole story, not just quotes to suit an agenda.

Here is a WSJ article,http://www.wsj.com/articles/merkel-it-was-a-mistake-to-criticize-comedians-erdogan-commentary-1461346880 she called it "deliberately offensive" and agreed with the prosecution "Ms. Merkel and her aides had hoped she would defuse the anger in the Turkish government by publicly criticizing the poem", only in retrospect(due to public outcry) has she moderated her stance and admitted she was wrong, after eighteen days.

Its also not a cut and dry case, there is outcry and open rebellion within her own party on the back of her statements and allowing it to proceed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/21/merkel-faces-rebellion-over-prosecution-of-comedian-accused-of-i/

Prosecutions under the law can only be brought with the express permission of the German government.

Critics have accused the German chancellor of sacrificing free speech to placate the authoritarian Mr Erdogan and safeguard the EU’s migrant deal with Turkey.
Previous governments have rejected requests made on behalf of President George W Bush and Pope Benedict XVI.

Mrs Merkel’s main coalition partner, the Social Democrats (SPD), have broken with convention and made it clear they oppose her decision to allow the prosecution.

More on the same
http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-comedians-joke-sparks-a-diplomatic-dilemma-for-germanys-angela-merkel-1460497804

To get back to the point, I would view her criticism of the comedian, and green lighting of the law as an endorsement of the law, would you not? Not forgetting her actively pressing facebook to enforce censorship and police speech(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJq5rKCe2DI) how honest is her retrospective apologism? Does she strike you as a person who values free speech?

oscarBravo · 23-04-2016 03:33PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Critics have accused the German chancellor of sacrificing free speech to placate the authoritarian Mr Erdogan and safeguard the EU’s migrant deal with Turkey.

Sounds like realpolitik to me. She allows a prosecution to take place - one which is vanishingly unlikely to succeed - to safeguard an international deal. The alternative was to prevent the prosecution from taking place - thereby arriving at essentially the same outcome - at the cost of jeopardising that deal.

To get back to the point, I would view her criticism of the comedian, and green lighting of the law as an endorsement of the law, would you not?

I might, if I studiously ignored the fact that she has also committed to repealing the same law. Not exactly a ringing endorsement, wouldn't you agree?

recedite · 23-04-2016 03:51PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/21/merkel-faces-rebellion-over-prosecution-of-comedian-accused-of-i/

The Telegraph article above is a lot better than the Guardian article.

Germany's lese majeste law; Paragraph 103 of the German Penal Code is an obscure and rarely used hangover from the days of German royalty.
The law originally only prohibited insulting a reigning monarch, but Kaiser Wilhelm II broadened it to include all foreign heads of state, whether crowned or not.
Critics say the law is outdated and has no place in a modern democracy.
The maximum penalty was originally life imprisonment. Today it is three years in jail, or five if the insult is deemed to be slanderous.
The law is popularly known in Germany as the “Shah Law”, because the former Shah of Iran tried to bring a prosecution under it in 1967.
Prosecutions are very rare, and must be expressly authorised by the German government.

There is only one reason Merkel authorised this prosecution, and that's because Erdogan has leverage over her. If he turns the migrant flow back on again, she is toast.
Normally a German Chancellor does not have to entertain such requests. A similar request from Kim Jong-un would have no chance of being authorised.

cowboyBuilder · 23-04-2016 10:13PM

Cabaal wrote: »

its certainly a hazard of not believing in stuff

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-36119151

Yep, and the lefty progressive lunatics want the west to become like this.

insanity

Lurkio · 24-04-2016 11:16AM

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

Yep, and the lefty progressive lunatics want the west to become like this.

insanity

You've a link to some party on the left that supports that?

volchitsa · 24-04-2016 11:25AM

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

Cabaal wrote: »

its certainly a hazard of not believing in stuff

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-36119151

Yep, and the lefty progressive lunatics want the west to become like this.

insanity

This degree of stupid would be no more than a joke if it wasn't for the fact that the people being murdered are the "lefty progressives" and the ones doing the killing are right wing religious types.

That fact makes this comment look like complete disrespect for the dead. Rewriting facts to make it look as though the victims are responsible for their own deaths is truly disgusting.

PopePalpatine · 24-04-2016 11:52AM

The St Vincent's Hospital Group Campus is demanding that the body governing the National Maternity Hospital on Holles St dissolve itself and merge with the Sisters of Charity-controlled group.

recedite · 24-04-2016 08:59PM

Check out the Holles Street board. Not exactly free of RCC infuence/ethos itself. I suspect this is more about the senior Holles St. admin trying to maintain their own personal fiefdoms in the face of a merger.

Both hospitals are publicly funded, therefore if they are effectively merging, they should both be placed under a unified secular control.

robindch · 24-04-2016 10:36PM

It was fallen angels, giants and "the nephilim" what built it. Stonehenge, I mean.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/stonehenge-satan-giants_us_5715b5b0e4b0060ccda42ea0

With video goodness here.

recedite · 25-04-2016 07:53AM

volchitsa wrote: »

This degree of stupid would be no more than a joke if it wasn't for the fact that the people being murdered are the "lefty progressives" and the ones doing the killing are right wing religious types.

That fact makes this comment look like complete disrespect for the dead. Rewriting facts to make it look as though the victims are responsible for their own deaths is truly disgusting.

But the policy of importing the fundamentalists and their culture into Europe is generally supported by the lefties and opposed by the righties. So the fact that there are now child brides living with their "husbands" in Scandinavia and Sharia Councils making family "law" decisions in the UK is a consequence of said "leftie progressive" policies.

Lurkio · 25-04-2016 10:09AM

recedite wrote: »

But the policy of importing the fundamentalists and their culture into Europe is generally supported by the lefties and opposed by the righties. ............

A link to a party manifesto that supports this, preferably an English version, please.

Custardpi · 25-04-2016 10:18AM

recedite wrote: »

But the policy of importing the fundamentalists and their culture into Europe is generally supported by the lefties and opposed by the righties. So the fact that there are now child brides living with their "husbands" in Scandinavia and Sharia Councils making family "law" decisions in the UK is a consequence of said "leftie progressive" policies.

While much has been written on the tendency of some on the Left to excuse or at least look the other way when it comes to radical Islam (Christopher Hitchens, Kenan Malik, Maajid Nawaz & Nick Cohen being among the most famous commentators on this issue) I rather think Volchisita was referring to the accusation that there were those on the European Left who actively favouring the hacking to death of Atheist bloggers by said radicals. That goes beyond mere intellectual confusion & into downright evil. People being overly sanguine or naive about immigration or integration issues is not the same as actually backing murder.

recedite · 25-04-2016 03:04PM

Custardpi wrote: »

I rather think Volchisita was referring to the accusation that there were those on the European Left who actively favouring the hacking to death of Atheist bloggers by said radicals.

Well, I didn't pick up on any such allegation, I thought it was more a comment on the the increasing Islamification of Europe. But let cowboyBuilder say which was was intended, as in the quote below;

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

Yep, and the lefty progressive lunatics want the west to become like this. Insanity

JPNelsforearm · 25-04-2016 03:10PM

Lurkio wrote: »

A link to a party manifesto that supports this, preferably an English version, please.

Here's one.

"Sinn Fein views with concern the increasing emergence of openly racist sentiment in Ireland. We support the calls for an immediate amnesty for all asylum seekers in the 26 counties. Sinn Fein will work for the achievement of the optimum position of no restriction on immigration in Ireland."

"Considering this country's history of emigration Sinn Fein deplores all attempts to limit the numbers of political and economic refugees into the country and supports the full integration of the aforementioned refugees into society"

http://www.sinnfein.org/ardfheis/98ardfheis/je.html

PopePalpatine · 25-04-2016 03:13PM

Another Bangladeshi has been hacked to death, this time a senior editor at its oldest LGBT magazine.

Lurkio · 25-04-2016 03:53PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Here's one.

"Sinn Fein views with concern the increasing emergence of openly racist sentiment in Ireland. We support the calls for an immediate amnesty for all asylum seekers in the 26 counties. Sinn Fein will work for the achievement of the optimum position of no restriction on immigration in Ireland."

"Considering this country's history of emigration Sinn Fein deplores all attempts to limit the numbers of political and economic refugees into the country and supports the full integration of the aforementioned refugees into society"

"importing the fundamentalists and their culture into Europe" isn't covered there, by any stretch. I'd suggest trying again.

JPNelsforearm · 25-04-2016 04:04PM

Lurkio wrote: »

"importing the fundamentalists and their culture into Europe" isn't covered there, by any stretch. I'd suggest trying again.

"[n]o restriction on immigration"

Its well covered, you cannot get any blunter than that, no borders means importing fundamentalists. Its a given, seeing as we have imported fundamentalists with our so called "vetting" and "border" system already.

Lurkio · 25-04-2016 06:22PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

"[n]o restriction on immigration"

Its well covered, you cannot get any blunter than that, no borders means importing fundamentalists. Its a given, seeing as we have imported fundamentalists with our so called "vetting" and "border" system already.

Surely theres some real threat to worry about, rather than this tilting at windmills?

fran17 · 25-04-2016 06:26PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Another Bangladeshi has been hacked to death, this time a senior editor at its oldest LGBT magazine.

Its only lgbt magazine.I really cannot envisage many in a 90% Muslim country where homosexuality is illegal.

Lurkio · 25-04-2016 06:53PM

fran17 wrote: »

Its only lgbt magazine.I really cannot envisage many in a 90% Muslim country where homosexuality is illegal.

I can't post links but you can google the article below with the text provided.

"Homosexuality and gay sex are not illegal in Indonesia, and the world's largest Muslim country has a vibrant transgender culture and tradition, which broadly meets with tolerance from the Indonesian public. "

Tolerance rarely makes headlines, but one arsehole with a machete can achieve instant world wide coverage, unfortunately.

recedite · 25-04-2016 07:12PM

The recent spate of machete murders were in Bangladesh, not Indonesia.

Lurkio · 25-04-2016 07:46PM

True. I can't seem to edit or delete posts at the moment unfortunately.

fran17 · 25-04-2016 08:35PM

recedite wrote: »

The recent spate of machete murders were in Bangladesh, not Indonesia.

Correct.What the BBC do not tell us,of course,is that its illegal because of a British law which still remains in the country.

The Hazards of Belief

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