Connacht vs Munster, Sat 16th April 19.15, Sportsground. Sky Sports 5/TG4

jm08 · 17-04-2016 12:44pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Which position did he apply for?

There's reportedly personal animosity between Penney and Hansen isn't there?

He (Penney) missed out to Blackadder in 2009 when Robbie Deans left the Crusaders, and to Dave Rennie at the Chiefs in 2012. What would have hurt most was being overlooked when Mark Hammett was appointed Hurricanes head coach in 2011.

Penney had been the Canterbury coach for six years and won three national titles. Hammett had only worked as an assistant with the Crusaders, under Deans and Blackadder.

First I've heard about Hansen. Think he upset a few people for siding with Robbie Deans v. Steve Tew. Wayne Smith recommended him to Munster. At the time, David Humphreys was asked why Ulster had not approached him and he said that ''Penney was a bit strong for them'.

jm08 · 17-04-2016 12:46pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

That's what I'm saying. Players being based in Limerick and Cork is not an excuse for them not training together every day. The cities are close enough to each other. The fact they aren't training together every day is a **** up by Munster rugby.

Haven't you heard that the road between Cork & Limerick is very poor and they are not going to upgrade it. It would be quicker to get from Dublin to Limerick than it would be to get from Cork to Limerick.

jm08 · 17-04-2016 12:49pm

.ak wrote: »

He saying he's handed one of his players cards twice. Why say it? Because he's trying to draw attention to it in the public eye. It's nothing to do with it being something they have to work on. He singled out the ref and the player. It's bizarre.

Well feic me, you've just had a crushing loss and you are asked questions when you say what you think. Would you prefer if they said nothing?

Yeah_Right · 17-04-2016 12:58pm

jm08 wrote: »

Haven't you heard that the road between Cork & Limerick is very poor and they are not going to upgrade it. It would be quicker to get from Dublin to Limerick than it would be to get from Cork to Limerick.

The one and only road between Cork and Limerick. How about the train? It's probably quicker than driving and I'm guessing it runs a few times a day.

jm08 · 17-04-2016 1:04pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

The one and only road between Cork and Limerick. How about the train? It's probably quicker than driving and I'm guessing it runs a few times a day.

Plenty of trains already (with one change). Take 2hrs 10 mins each way - so that would be about 4.5 hours per day on a train.

17-04-2016 1:06pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

The one and only road between Cork and Limerick. How about the train? It's probably quicker than driving and I'm guessing it runs a few times a day.

This is not worth discussion, every other pro rugby side on the planet has managed to instruct their players to show up at a certain place at a certain time for training, if Munster want to make this insane decision to give their players a choice then it's their problem.

OldRio · 17-04-2016 1:07pm

jm08 wrote: »

Plenty of trains already (with one change). Take 2hrs 10 mins each way - so that would be about 4.5 hours per day on a train.

No wonder they got beat. It all makes sense now.

jm08 · 17-04-2016 1:10pm

Khloe Clumsy Halogen wrote: »

This is not worth discussion, every other pro rugby side on the planet has managed to instruct their players to show up at a certain place at a certain time for training, if Munster want to make this insane decision to give their players a choice then it's their problem.

A new training centre is being opened in Limerick for next season (a new 10m training centre is being built in UL). The issue has been addressed, but they are not happy about it in Cork.

Bazzo · 17-04-2016 1:11pm

jm08 wrote: »

Plenty of trains already (with one change). Take 2hrs 10 mins each way - so that would be about 4.5 hours per day on a train.

I just looked it up to see how true this is. There's a fast train in the morning and evening that takes a little over an hour and a half(1.35ish) and there are plenty of others that are around 1.45-1.50 so no.

This is a ridiculous point to be arguing anyway, who exactly are you assigning blame to here? Is it the IRFU's faut? Dept of transport? Joe Schmidt?

jm08 · 17-04-2016 1:14pm

Bazzo wrote: »

I just looked it up to see how true this is. There's a fast train in the morning and evening that takes a little over an hour and a half(1.35ish) and there are plenty of others that are around 1.45-1.50 so no.

This is a ridiculous point to be arguing anyway, who exactly are you assigning blame to here? Is it the IRFU's faut? Dept of transport? Joe Schmidt?

I'm not assigning blame on anyone. It was a crazy situation which has now been addressed.

irishbucsfan · 17-04-2016 1:15pm

Bazzo wrote: »

I just looked it up to see how true this is. There's a fast train in the morning and evening that takes a little over an hour and a half(1.35ish) and there are plenty of others that are around 1.45-1.50 so no.

This is a ridiculous point to be arguing anyway, who exactly are you assigning blame to here? Is it the IRFU's faut? Dept of transport? Joe Schmidt?

It's always been a very curious thing. I suspect it's just down to possessiveness from a certain section of people with too much power. I can't understand what's stopping them moving everyone, even if they have to provide accommodation temporarily, why didn't it happen a decade ago.

Bazzo · 17-04-2016 1:20pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's always been a very curious thing. I suspect it's just down to possessiveness from a certain section of people with too much power. I can't understand what's stopping them moving everyone, even if they have to provide accommodation temporarily, why didn't it happen a decade ago.

Certainly looks that way, it was an entirely internal issue that has finally been dealt with thankfully, really bizzare way to work things the way they have been up until now.

jm08 · 17-04-2016 1:22pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's always been a very curious thing. I suspect it's just down to possessiveness from a certain section of people with too much power. I can't understand what's stopping them moving everyone, even if they have to provide accommodation temporarily, why didn't it happen a decade ago.

Check out Munsterfans to see how really annoyed the Cork fans are about this. They feel that Munster has now become a Limerick team and that Cork, as the largest city in the Province is being neglected. They are gunning for Garret Fitzgerald because he allowed this to happen!

Everyone is moving to Limerick for next season. It didn't happen a decade ago because it suited - most the backs were in Cork and the most the forwards were in Limerick - they met up twice a week and they were such good players, they managed. Jim Williams (back in the 00s) said it was absolutely crazy carry on.

swiwi_ · 17-04-2016 1:38pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Can't remember his name being linked with any of the clubs. As for any animosity, swiwi would probably know more. He's from the same neck of the woods.

I don't know of any ill-feeling between Steve & Rob but I think the latter may have burnt some bridges along the way and he has been consistently overlooked for a super coaching post.

As for the 2 training bases malarkey that would be the end of the NZ super rugby franchises. I'll have some of what jm08 is smoking, she has lost the plot.

There should be a good masters thesis and even a book out of all this "The rise and fall of Munster rugby: (add your choice of angle here)."

How Munster go about trying to put the ship back on keel will be interesting. Needs to start by accepting responsibility and not blaming refs or geography.

jm08 · 17-04-2016 1:47pm

swiwi_ wrote: »

As for the 2 training bases malarkey that would be the end of the NZ super rugby franchises. I'll have some of what jm08 is smoking, she has lost the plot.

Not too sure what you mean by this?

Are you saying that NZ super rugby franchises have a similar set-up to Munster where the teams train separately? I was under the impression that Munster was unique in having two training bases with the full squad only meeting up together twice a week.

kuang1 · 17-04-2016 1:53pm

jm08 wrote: »

Not too sure what you mean by this?

Are you saying that NZ super rugby franchises have a similar set-up to Munster where the teams train separately? I was under the impression that Munster was unique in having two training bases with the full squad only meeting up together twice a week.

This is my 3rd time asking you...
Are you happy for Foley to remain as headcoach?

Yeah_Right · 17-04-2016 1:59pm

jm08 wrote: »

Not too sure what you mean by this?

Are you saying that NZ super rugby franchises have a similar set-up to Munster where the teams train separately? I was under the impression that Munster was unique in having two training bases with the full squad only meeting up together twice a week.

When the Chiefs were first created they combined North Harbour/Northland with Waikato. It was a fubacle far greater to any issues between Cork and Limerick. Thankfully that's all changed.

All the franchises have one base for training and playing the majority of their home games. The players all live there for the season. They do however travel around their regions for a couple of games and meet n greets with fans. Nearly all the preseason games will be played outside of their usual home field. Remember though, NZ is a lot bigger than Ireland so commuting from home towns wouldn't be an option for a lot of the players.

jm08 · 17-04-2016 2:01pm

kuang1 wrote: »

This is my 3rd time asking you...
Are you happy for Foley to remain as headcoach?

Yes. I think he is a good coach. Munster have lost some key people through retirement and injury this year (POC, POM & BJ) as well as some people coming back from long term injuries like Sherry & Archer. We could have done with a bit more experience in the squad.

Yeah_Right · 17-04-2016 2:04pm

Was Foleys contract recently extended?

jm08 · 17-04-2016 2:05pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

When the Chiefs were first created they combined North Harbour/Northland with Waikato. It was a fubacle far greater to any issues between Cork and Limerick. Thankfully that's all changed.

All the franchises have one base for training and playing the majority of their home games. The players all live there for the season. They do however travel around their regions for a couple of games and meet n greets with fans. Nearly all the preseason games will be played outside of their usual home field. Remember though, NZ is a lot bigger than Ireland so commuting from home towns wouldn't be an option for a lot of the players.

So, Munster is unique in its set up.

By the way, there has always been a massive rivalry between Cork and Limerick. Thats why Cork fans are really pissed off that everything is in Limerick now.

irishbucsfan · 17-04-2016 2:06pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Was Foleys contract recently extended?

Yes, until the end of next season.

jm08 · 17-04-2016 2:06pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Was Foleys contract recently extended?

No. He had an option for a 3rd year on his original contract which he has taken up.

awec · 17-04-2016 2:15pm

jm08 wrote: »

No. He had an option for a 3rd year on his original contract which he has taken up.

Sorry jm08 but this is just nonsensical spin.

jm08 · 17-04-2016 2:22pm

awec wrote: »

Sorry jm08 but this is just nonsensical spin.

That is how it works. It was up to Axel not to exercise the option.

I'd imagine there was a bit of learning involved from what happened when Leinster sacked MOC anyway. You could be left with no one.

awec · 17-04-2016 2:26pm

jm08 wrote: »

That is how it works. It was up to Axel not to exercise the option.

I'd imagine there was a bit of learning involved from what happened when Leinster sacked MOC anyway. You could be left with no one.

:pac:

Stop digging jm08. He may have had the option to sign for a third year but at the end of the day he initially signed for two and was allowed to sign for the extra year.

You can dress it up however you want, stick whatever name on it you wish and make all the references to Leinster that you want (who by the way are sitting top of the table and have done the double over Munster this year) but in reality he was given the extra year.

irishbucsfan · 17-04-2016 2:26pm

jm08 wrote: »

No. He had an option for a 3rd year on his original contract which he has taken up.

Nope. It's a mutual option, Munster extend it first.

As Fitzgerald said "As confirmed previously, we offered Anthony the option to extend his contract as per the initial agreement in 2014 and we are pleased to see him avail of this renewal and commit to the province for a further year"

jm08 · 17-04-2016 2:31pm

awec wrote: »

:pac:

Stop digging jm08. He may have had the option to sign for a third year but at the end of the day he initially signed for two and was allowed to sign for the extra year.

You can dress it up however you want, stick whatever name on it you wish and make all the references to Leinster that you want (who by the way are sitting top of the table and have done the double over Munster this year) but in reality he was given the extra year.

The only one digging is you. It would have cost Munster to withdraw the 3rd year option. If its not relevant, why state that the contract is 2 years plus option on 3rd in the first place.

Its a fact that Leinster (which would be regarded as a more attractive option than Munster), did not receive any applicants to replace MOC and Leinster were lucky they had Leo & Girvan to fall back on.

jm08 · 17-04-2016 2:32pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Nope. It's a mutual option, Munster extend it first.

As Fitzgerald said "As confirmed previously, we offered Anthony the option to extend his contract as per the initial agreement in 2014 and we are pleased to see him avail of this renewal and commit to the province for a further year"

You missed the bit in bold.

thomond2006 · 17-04-2016 2:33pm

jm08 wrote: »

It would have cost Munster to withdraw the 3rd year option.

Evidence please.

awec · 17-04-2016 2:34pm

jm08 wrote: »

The only one digging is you. It would have cost Munster to withdraw the 3rd year option. If its not relevant, why state that the contract is 2 years plus option on 3rd in the first place.

Its a fact that Leinster (which would be regarded as a more attractive option than Munster), did not receive any applicants to replace MOC and Leinster were lucky they had Leo & Girvan to fall back on.

It is costing Munster right now, you are awful.

Leinster got rid of MOC late which didn't help with applicants, Munster should have told Foley there was no extension and been looking for replacements 3 or 4 months ago. It's not as if the poor showings are a recent thing.

irishbucsfan · 17-04-2016 2:35pm

jm08 wrote: »

The only one digging is you. It would have cost Munster to withdraw the 3rd year option. If its not relevant, why state that the contract is 2 years plus option on 3rd in the first place.

Its a fact that Leinster (which would be regarded as a more attractive option than Munster), did not receive any applicants to replace MOC and Leinster were lucky they had Leo & Girvan to fall back on.

They didn't receive ANY applicants? Nope.

jm08 wrote: »

You missed the bit in bold.

No. It was a mutual option. It's a pretty common structure.

awec · 17-04-2016 2:37pm

Why would ANY club give a rookie coach a contract in which he has sole control in whether he stays for a third year?

That actually makes no sense whatsoever. None. It would be the dumbest clause ever concocted.

Foley is staying for a third year because Munster agreed to it. Not in 2014, but this season.

Journeyman_1 · 17-04-2016 2:38pm

The point of an option is to have the ability to extend without having to renegotiate terms.

17-04-2016 2:43pm

awec wrote: »

Why would ANY club give a rookie coach a contract in which he has sole control in whether he stays for a third year?

That actually makes no sense whatsoever. None. It would be the dumbest clause ever concocted.

Foley is staying for a third year because Munster agreed to it. Not in 2014, but this season.

The mental gymnastics necessary to believe such a scenario is true, is remarkable.

kuang1 · 17-04-2016 2:48pm

awec wrote: »

Foley is staying for a third year because Munster agreed to it. Not in 2014, but this season.

Yes this is true.
Purely from memory, the club made the offer last November (ish) and Foley delayed signing it up until last month.

(Which is laughable as he had stated around Christmas time that he was delaying signing it until he himself was sure that he was the right man for the job or some such drivel.)

jm08 · 17-04-2016 2:50pm

awec wrote: »

Why would ANY club give a rookie coach a contract in which he has sole control in whether he stays for a third year?

That actually makes no sense whatsoever. None. It would be the dumbest clause ever concocted.

Foley is staying for a third year because Munster agreed to it. Not in 2014, but this season.

Anthony had an option on his contract and has been offered an option,” Fitzgerald said on January 12. “He specifically asked that it be parked, as he wanted to concentrate on team performance and he’s not in any rush at the present moment to do that. We’re quite happy at the moment to let it be as it is. The most important thing is team performance.

That reads to me like he had an option already.

Foley isn't a rookie coach. My understanding is that if Munster did not offer him the 3rd year, he would be entitled to compensation.

Anyway, I don't know why you are arguing this point considering that Munster would not be the most attractive job for anyone good to risk their reputations on.

kearnsy · 17-04-2016 2:50pm

Journeyman_1 wrote: »

The point of an option is to have the ability to extend without having to renegotiate terms.

or to terminate a contract without having to buy it out?

jm08 · 17-04-2016 2:53pm

awec wrote: »

It is costing Munster right now, you are awful.

Leinster got rid of MOC late which didn't help with applicants, Munster should have told Foley there was no extension and been looking for replacements 3 or 4 months ago. It's not as if the poor showings are a recent thing.

And who would want the job? A team in transition who are still expected to be contesting finals having lost a couple of world class players with huge IRFU restrictions on who they can recruit?

I think life might be a bit easier in Japan!

irishbucsfan · 17-04-2016 2:54pm

jm08 wrote: »

And who would want the job? A team in transition who are still expected to be contesting finals having lost a couple of world class players with huge IRFU restrictions on who they can recruit?

I think life might be a bit easier in Japan!

There's alway R.J.R O'Gara!

jm08 · 17-04-2016 3:01pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There's alway R.J.R O'Gara!

Yes, I wonder ... a choice between Dan Carter's coach or Ian Keatley/Johnny Holland.

ROG is far too smart to come back to Ireland where he would be on a hiding to nothing.

irishbucsfan · 17-04-2016 3:07pm

jm08 wrote: »

Yes, I wonder ... a choice between Dan Carter's coach or Ian Keatley/Johnny Holland.

ROG is far too smart to come back to Ireland where he would be on a hiding to nothing.

I would hope he's a little bit more optimistic about the potential of Munster rugby than you are...

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 17-04-2016 3:10pm

jm08 wrote: »

Yes, I wonder ... a choice between Dan Carter's coach or Ian Keatley/Johnny Holland.

ROG is far too smart to come back to Ireland where he would be on a hiding to nothing.

Is ROG not more than just a kicking coach at Racing? I see the point your making but I think he does more than just work with 10's.

jm08 · 17-04-2016 3:14pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I would hope he's a little bit more optimistic about the potential of Munster rugby than you are...

I am optimistic, but I don't expect instant success. Pat Lam has been given support to develop Connacht with little or no pressure on them to actually succeed. Ulster gets away with under achievement, but Leinster or Munster do not.

jm08 · 17-04-2016 3:16pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Is ROG not more than just a kicking coach at Racing? I see the point your making but I think he does more than just work with 10's.

He is defence and skills. And my point is the standard of player he is working with.

awec · 17-04-2016 3:23pm

jm08 wrote: »

I am optimistic, but I don't expect instant success. Pat Lam has been given support to develop Connacht with little or no pressure on them to actually succeed. Ulster gets away with under achievement, but Leinster or Munster do not.

Ha, I think you're being a bit quick to try and throw your lot in with Leinster here.

Munster do clearly get away with under achievement, you just extended the contract of the coach who is presiding over what must be the worst season in pro rugby for your club.

There is a million miles between Leinster and Munster right now in virtually every facet of the sport.

.ak · 17-04-2016 3:23pm

jm08 wrote: »

Well feic me, you've just had a crushing loss and you are asked questions when you say what you think. Would you prefer if they said nothing?

Oh don't get me wrong, I love it when a coach speaks his mind, just my own selfish reasons though.

As a fan I'd be pissed because he's making excuses and accusing refs of being biased towards players and using the media to suggest refs.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 17-04-2016 3:35pm

jm08 wrote: »

He is defence and skills. And my point is the standard of player he is working with.

Surely the test of a good coach is how much he can achieve with "less talent".

Look at Pat Lam and Connacht. ROG could be Munster's Pat Lam.

jm08 · 17-04-2016 3:56pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Surely the test of a good coach is how much he can achieve with "less talent".

Look at Pat Lam and Connacht. ROG could be Munster's Pat Lam.

Having spent 15 years or so under massive pressure, I'd imagine ROG is enjoying what he is doing now. He probably also wants to make his mistakes outside the Irish fishbowl. Anyway, ROG has less experience now than Foley had when he was appointed Munster head coach.

Pat Lam failed with the Blues, he has no pressure on him for Connacht to perform. If Munster lost that game v. Grenoble last week in the manner that Connacht lost it, Foley would have got huge criticism. Everyone will think Connacht is great if they make the final of the PRO12. Everyone has forgotten that Munster made them last year.

jm08 · 17-04-2016 3:58pm

.ak wrote: »

Oh don't get me wrong, I love it when a coach speaks his mind, just my own selfish reasons though.

As a fan I'd be pissed because he's making excuses and accusing refs of being biased towards players and using the media to suggest refs.

Well, its what he thinks. Pretty much everyone is critical of the inconsistencies of the refereeing. Rob Penney gave them both barrels on a few occasions. Cheika usually lay into them as well.

.ak · 17-04-2016 4:03pm

jm08 wrote: »

Well, its what he thinks. Pretty much everyone is critical of the inconsistencies of the refereeing. Rob Penney gave them both barrels on a few occasions. Cheika usually lay into them as well.

Doesn't make it right.

Accusing a ref of biased against a particular player won't do foley any favours, and frankly it's probably deserving of a fine.

Connacht vs Munster, Sat 16th April 19.15, Sportsground. Sky Sports 5/TG4

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